"TalkTV" host Julia Hartley-Brewer's exchange with a guest, Shivani Dave, about pronouns has gone viral and it's easy to see why when you watch the exchange.
Hartley-Brewer had Dave on to talk about the Cass Review. We've reported on that in the past, and the tidal wave of change that it's bringing to the subject.
It was the independent review done by Dr. Hilary Cass, a leading consultant pediatrician, that led to the U.K.'s NHS stepping away from the "gender affirming care" model and away from puberty blockers for children, except in clinical trials. Instead, they are now going to take a more individualized approach, which is a positive development.
The Service will adopt a holistic, multi-disciplinary integrated approach to assessing and responding to an individual’s needs in view of the range of co-presentations that may typically present in this patient cohort, and the range of complexities relating to gender identity development. The most appropriate clinical pathway in the best interests of the child or young person will be determined through an integrated multidisciplinary team (MDT) approach, fully involving the child or young person and their family.
As Bill Maher pointed out on his show on Friday, this puts the U.S. out more as an outlier compared to places like the U.K, which is ironic given folks on the left are always saying we should look to Europe on policies. Now, they can't say that anymore with regard to this issue.
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However, Hartley-Brewer refused to bite when Dave told her Dave's pronouns were "they/them"--and the exchange was something else.
Julia Hartley-Brewer and journalist Shivani Dave clash over the use of gender pronouns.
— TalkTV (@TalkTV) April 10, 2024
Shivani: "I'm a very special, non-binary, trans person. You chose to use the incorrect pronouns for me".
Julia: "Is it disrespectful for me to use correct, factual grammar?".@JuliaHB1 pic.twitter.com/6dGrSBnnzE
“Yeah, thank you for telling me your pronouns," Hartley-Brewer said.
"I use correct grammar. So, the only thing I would need to refer to you is, to your face would be 'you.'
But, I’m not being rude; you can choose your pronouns, you can choose what you want to call yourself, but you don’t get to require me to use incorrect grammar and factually incorrect things. You’re not a plural; you’re a one person, and you’re a female person, so I will use ‘she’ and ‘her.’ Thank you very much."
"Do what you like, I guess," Dave responded.
"So you didn't need to tell me then, did you," Hartley-Brewer replied.
"Maybe I'm just letting people know, in case they're watching, and they want to refer to me respectfully," Dave said.
"Is it disrespectful for me to use correct, factual grammar?" Hartley-Brewer asked.
"It's not incorrect or unfactual grammar to use singular they/them pronouns for an individual," Dave came back. Dave then tried to bring it back to the review.
But you brought it up, the host rebutted.
"But you chose to use the incorrect pronouns for me," Dave rebuked her.
"No, I choose the correct pronouns for a single woman who is appearing on my show," the host said.
Dave insisted "they/them" were the correct pronouns because she was "not a single woman, but a very special, non-binary trans person." Dave said that Hartley-Brewer had said people who like labels were "special," so "I'm just making sure everyone knows I'm special."
That's when Hartley-Brewer sort of brought down the house with her response.
"I'm not special, I'm just a boring old heterosexual married woman, but you know, sorry about that, not allowed to do that anymore. That probably does make me special now, I don't know," she laughed.
Many on X applauded Hartley-Brewer for championing the reality that Dave was not a plural, but a singular person, and for standing up that reality. I think, in general, everyone wants to be polite and accommodating to anyone else. But when you can upend reality and order, the meaning of words is then transient and up to who has the loudest voice. Truth is not relative, but If you can make it so, you have chaos.
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