December 7, 1941


(by way of the Navy History and Heritage Command)

This is just to take a brief time out from politics to reflect on the event that, arguably, more than any other in that century determined America’s role in the world.



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Arguably, indeed.

juumanistra (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 9:46AM EST (link)

Had Hitler not declared war on the United States following Pearl Harbor and the American declaration against Japan, the latter half of the Twentieth Century would have been very different indeed. (Of course, that assumes no other intervening event arose to give FDR the excuse he desperately craved to get involved in the war against the Third Reich.) Even more so than even the operational mistakes of Barbarossa, the Germans’ greatest mistake was in declaring war on the U.S. when the U.S. had purposefully only declared war on Japan.

Though the real pivot point for America’s role in the world in the past century was the murder of Franz Ferdinand. But that’s because what happened in Sarajavo in 1914 is the pivot upon which the whole of the Twentieth Century turned, for almost every event of significance that followed is only a few degrees removed from it.

Did WW I have any significant impact

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:00AM EST (link)

on our place in the world? I don’t see any evidence of it. WW I strengthened our natural bias towards isolationism.. The US Navy became more of a “brown water” rather than “blue water” force. In terms of major surface combatants the Navy of 1922 was a shadow of the 1912/1913 Navy. The US Army nearly ceased to exist.

We benefited from the resulting chaos in Europe in terms of trade but if anything the America of the 1920s was much more reticent about exerting itself in the world than the America of 1913.

While I don’t deny that WW I was world historic event, I simply don’t see how it as a significant event for the US.

Pearl Harbor, on the other hand, profoundly changed the way America looked at its place in the world. From that point on isolationism and refraining from defense pacts was never seriously considered by anyone other that the John Birch society and Ron Paul

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

Well, a case could be made

andystone (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:13AM EST (link)

that the lessons of WW I were instrumental in turning the US into the Arsenal of Democracy. The doughboys fought in French and British aircraft and tanks, but by 1940 it was the British being kept afloat by Lend-Lease. While the majority of America stayed isolationist till 70 years ago, WW I did create a hard nucleus of realists who were able to ramp up production and mobilization to unheard of levels in a very short time. Hitler declared war on the US on a whim in 1941 precisely because nobody in Europe thought anything like that was possible.

I'm not sure I agree

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:23AM EST (link)

with that assessment.

I don’t think WW I led us to support Britain before 1941. It is difficult to conceive of a scenario where we would not have helped Britain. We were able to respond because we belatedly started rearming in the summer of 1940 and we had a huge and underutilized industrial base.

Can you suggest any readings on this?

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

By the time the shooting started in WW2, the U.S. was ready to fight the limeys.

juumanistra (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:55AM EST (link)

It’s worth noting that through the mid-Thirties, the American military actively anticipated that the next time it was sent off to war, it would most likely be against Great Britain.

War Plan Red is a hoot to read, if only because it features documents bearing the letterhead of the Department of War discussing the logistics of invading Canada. Though it is outdone by contemporaneous Canadian strategic discussions of going on the offensive and invading New England along invasion routes plotted with the use of maps obtained at gas stations in Vermont and New Hampshire.

that's a misreading of the significance

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:10AM EST (link)

Plan Red was one of the “rainbow” war plans and was rated as “highly improbable.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_color-coded_war_plans#List_of_Color_Plans

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

I did preface it with "the mid-Thirties".

juumanistra (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:25AM EST (link)

Which the All-Mighty Wiki does not take account of. As after 1937 or so the worsening situation in the Pacific changed the strategic assessments of the American military establishment.

when I served in War Plans

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:46AM EST (link)

on the Army staff we didn’t have plans to invade Canada but we did have a lot of esoteric ones because the planning assumptions can be used. The best example is Norman Schwartzkopf modified OPLAN 1005, which involved the voluntary landing of US forces into Iran to face a Soviet invasion to accomodate the voluntary landing of US forces into Saudi Arabia to face an Iraqi invasion.

I’m very familiar with the Rainbow Plans from a professional association with them. Plan Red was never anything more than a planning drill.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

Oh shush, you old wet blank.

juumanistra (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:56AM EST (link)

You and your experience. And expertise. And soul-crushing reminders of reality.

We’re supposed to be the non-reality based community, right? So I want the Hoover administration planning to invade Canada at the outset of the Third Anglo-American War, dagnabbit.

 
 
 
 

Fear The Northeren Successionists!

Repair_Man_Jack (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:18AM EST (link)

Canadian strategic discussions of going on the offensive and invading New England along invasion routes plotted with the use of maps obtained at gas stations in Vermont and New Hampshire.

Of course, they weren’t really ever going to do that. They just wanted to send in agent provacatuers to recreate The Hartford Convention.

Mr. Obama is pretending that an economic “recovery” is underway when he knows damn well that the banking system is just blowing smoke up the shredded *** of what’s left of that economy – James Howard Kunstler

 
 

Through the 30s, the USMC was smaller than the NYPD.

Dave_A (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 12:27PM EST (link)

We were horribly and utterly unprepared to fight WWII – to the point where I’d say it’s a war that we ‘came as close to losing as you can while still managing to win’…

We essentially pulled the force that won the war out of thin air, using the draft… While there was a thin corps of pre-war professional officers, even the commissioned leadership was largely brought in after the fact….

Add to that abjectly abysmal (but easily mass-producable) equipment such as the M3 Grease Gun and every US tank prior to the M-26…

And you have an example of how NOT to fight a war…

That said, given where we started from (largely due to Ron Paul-style isolationisim in the 20s and 30s), we did a damn good job with what we had, and the world is better for this…

(Written as I spend 7/Dec on a small outpost in Afganhistan)

Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page

as a member

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 12:35PM EST (link)

of that generation of infantrymen who never smelled powder burned in anger I am somewhat envious. Best wishes for the holidays and a safe return.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

 

Dont forget

bri283 Wednesday, December 7th at 5:17PM EST (link)

The great thanks due to FDR who did as much as he could to prep us for war, and who kept England and Russia alive against the Nazis while we dithered (and remember who most of the ditherers were…)

Bri

 

That's why it's nice

aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 7:24PM EST (link)

that your enemy ain’t ever perfect. As bad of straits as we were in at the beginning of that war, Japan was overextended and its logistics and supply a horror, and Germany was tasting the aggrieved winter of the Russian Bear while occupying half of Europe and Northern Africa (with the “help” of inept Italy, of course). Neither country was in a particularly enviable position to strike at America by the time Hitler declared war, fool that he was.

I’d also argue that our latecomer status in both wars was definitely a boon for us, when we were the only industrial nation without charred cities and without a completely depleted core of workers.

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton

 
 
 
 

Because you don't get to Pearl Harbor without going through Sarajavo.

juumanistra (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:21AM EST (link)

Well, I suppose the proper chain of causation is that you cannot have Pearl Harbor without Japanese estrangement from the West; you cannot have Japanese estrangement from the West without the Washington Naval Treaty; you cannot have the Washington Naval Treaty without Britain bankrupting itself to the point that it desperately wants to avoid a naval arms race with the United States; and you cannot have Britain bankrupting itself without the First World War.

More to the point: WW1 did the bulk of the work dynamiting the material and cultural foundations that undergird a world order dominated by Europe: While it took WW2 to sweep away the edifice, you could not get there without WW1. The conflicts are inextricably linked: Hence why I make the point that the most pivotal event was the one which sent the train-wreck into motion in the first place.

reductio ad absurdam

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:31AM EST (link)

you don’t get to Sarajevo without going through the Triple Alliance (1882) or Congress of Berlin or Treaty of San Stefano or the Peace of Prague, etc.

I don’t disagree with your linkages but really everything is linked to most everything.

My points would be that 1) the lesson we learned from WW I was that foreigners are crazy and we should stay away from them and 2) where WW I shaped the Europe that allowed Hitler, and Stalin, to prosper it had a minimal impact on the US culturally or politically.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

John Hinkley shot Reagan because of the Third Punic War!

juumanistra (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:48AM EST (link)

I can make a convincing case for that, too! …but I will not endeavor to, because I’m afraid I actually could make such a case.

At any rate, in the context of WW1, you don’t get to reductio ad absurdum until you start claiming that there’d've been no Iran-Contra Affair but for what transpired in Sarajevo. (Because there would’ve been no Soviet Union without WW1, and without a Soviet Union, there’d've been no Sandanistas, and without Sandanistas there’d've been no Contras, and with no Contras, there could be no Iran-Contra Affair!) Because of the relative ease with which one can trace the chain of causation through WW1 to WW2, though, I would have to disagree with the assessment that we’re getting to absurd levels of causal linkage. But I’ve also had my mind poisoned by Niall Ferguson’s The War of the World, and will probably never be able to look at any of the conflicts of 1914-1953 as discrete and separable conflicts ever again.

Re: the domestic political impact of WW1, I would just note that Wilson’s war socialism was monumentally influential on Progressive thought, as well as being the nursery in which those who would eventually design and implement the New Deal came of political age.

unlike what Glenn Beck tries to claim

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:56AM EST (link)

the Progressive movement was well established before Wilson was elected and though he championed it, I don’t see him a particularly significant. The New Deal is really the offspring of the Progressive movement and the Great Depression.

Ever read Ray Bradbury’s “A Sound of Thunder”? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sound_of_Thunder

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

 
 

What if Socrates had died in the Trojan War?

JSobieski (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:03AM EST (link)

nt

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

Presumably you meant the Peloponnesean War.

juumanistra (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:20AM EST (link)

As the Trojan War occurred roughly eight centuries, give or take, before Socrates lived. And it was during the Battle of Delium, in 424 B.C., when his life was endangered as the Athenian army was routed by the Thebans at that site.

What would have become of Western philosophy had one of its titans died before his prime? Well, our vernacular would be less one idiom involving hemlock. And we’d need a new word to describe non-romantic friends.

If I Remember The VDH Artice To Which He was Referring,

Repair_Man_Jack (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:37AM EST (link)

Plato was in greater danger of assuming room temperature. he was listed among the missing in one of the bigger battles and only turned up the next day. His loss would have been much more grievous. Plato, not Socrates, was the one who expansively wrote.

Mr. Obama is pretending that an economic “recovery” is underway when he knows damn well that the banking system is just blowing smoke up the shredded *** of what’s left of that economy – James Howard Kunstler

Plato wasn't even born in 424.

juumanistra (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:50AM EST (link)

Or, if he had been born, he was in diapers. He would’ve been of age to serve in the naval campaigns of the Ionian War, even then only for Arginusae and/or Aegospotami. (And given what happened at Aegospotami, he probably was not there.)

The issue of Plato is the skulking horse in these discussions, because of his importance. And the question of how much of Plato’s philosophical importance derives from his exposure to Socrates: In the event that Socrates had died at Delium, would Plato still have pursued the life of the mind as he did, and if so, how would it have been changed?

The fun part, of course, is that there’s no way of ever knowing.

Then again, there is the ever-present question

aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 7:52PM EST (link)

of how much of what is attributed to Socrates was truly his; Plato being the dissembler of much of what we attribute to the man.

Interestingly enough, what we know about Socrates apart from Plato’s dialogues is that a) he was rather sympathetic to (or compliant with) the Thirty Tyrants (a Spartan puppet oligarchy established in Athens at the conclusion of the Peloponnesian War), and that b) his criticism of Athenian democracy and support of Spartan oligarchy was at least partly to account for his trial. Given that Socrates’ main students (Xenophon and Plato specifically) seem to differ on key details, and that Socrates left few writings of his own behind (despite his students’ embrace of same) it seems to me that Socrates’ philosophy not probably not as great as the personal effect that he had on his students, whether intentional or otherwise.

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Just the opposite

gawken (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:02AM EST (link)

The seeds of WW II were sown in the fields and trenches of WW II. We can look back now, and understand how easily Hitler could have been stopped, early on, with a minimum of resolve, and a willingness to use force judiciously. Chamberlain, waving a piece of paper, and promising “peace in our time” is a near universal figure of ridicule, yet just about nobody today understands the mindset of Europe after WW I. An entire generation was decimated, the flower of England’s youth cut down, as incompetent generals threw away battallions in a single day, for naught.

We correctly revere the battlefields and gravesites of WW II…we have forgotten those of WW I. It is possible today to walk the WW I trenches, from the Swiss border all the way to Belgium, to see where hundreds of thousands of men died, over a few miles of ground..to see the monuments to incredible bravery and monumental stupidity.

See this, and you can understand why England and France wanted to do everything possible to avoid another war, until the decision was taken from them. And why fear of war can’t be allowed to paralyze us from taking decisive action, to have the courage of our beliefs and convictions, that we ARE in the right, and that we are willing to use our militay might to protect ourselves, and avoid the greater inevitable conflict.

Sadly, we still haven’t learned the lesson. We fight the war on Terror with at least one hand tied behind our backs, and allow ourselves to be paralyzed into inaction.

Only the Israelis have learned the lesson well..”Never again” is their watchword. They have done it twice before, taking out the nucleal sites in Iran and Syria, and no doubt will soon do it again, in Iran. And they will thus save the world froma far greater tragedy.

 
 

Do you mean that Diplomatically?

Repair_Man_Jack (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:03AM EST (link)

I would say Woodrow Wilson used WWI as an opportunity to change a lot of the fundamentals of American foreign policy and international relations. He was certainly in the school that ‘never let a crisis go to waste.”

Mr. Obama is pretending that an economic “recovery” is underway when he knows damn well that the banking system is just blowing smoke up the shredded *** of what’s left of that economy – James Howard Kunstler

It would be accurate to say Wilson tried

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:11AM EST (link)

but I don’t see where he succeeded. The rejection of the League of Nations Treaty was really us declining to get involved with foreign nutters.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

Wilson lost the battle but own the long war

kipling (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:17AM EST (link)

Unfortunately, the Wilsonian idealism – read fantasy – did not end with the defeat the League of Nations.

I think it died

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:19AM EST (link)

until after WW II. The idea of a UN, as we see it today, without US involvement in WW II would never have succeeded. Likewise, if we had been asked to join the UN as a member, that is, with no veto power, I don’t think Congress would have bought it.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

I think it went into hibernation

kipling (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:00AM EST (link)

The UN following WWII did differ from the League but that was simply a hat tip to political and diplomatic realities.

The League laid the intellectual foundations for the UN. Many of the intellectuals who supported the League continued to support such an organization throughout the interwar period. Some of the intellectuals even served in both the Wilson and FDR administrations. Don’t forget that FDR was Wilson’s Secretary of the Navy.

 
 
 
 
 

FDR Tried to Provoke Hitler

kipling (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:09AM EST (link)

FDR tried his best to provoke Germany into declaring war or creating an incident that would allow him to declare war. Our ships cooperated with the British navy in its campaigns against German subs. We provided aid, logistics and moral support. FDR must have been rather surprised when it came after Pearl Harbor.

more of a Forrest Gump than a Machiavelli

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:17AM EST (link)

the contemporaneous record indicates that contrary to the various conspiracy theories, FDR was actually shocked when the Japanese did attack.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

Of Forrest Gump and Machiavelli

kipling (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:56AM EST (link)

In all my years, I have never seen those two paired together. However, it is a pairing that works in this situation.

I agree. I am not a conspiracy theorist when it comes to Pearl Harbor,

 

Read a book by Richard Maybury once

louisianapatriette (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:00AM EST (link)

(and he’s a Libertarian–BIG TIME) and he wanted to make it out like the USA and Great Britain were as bad as Germany and Japan, that there was no black-and-white, and that American soldiers were just tools in the hands of FDR, not heroes at all. I was so disgusted with that book. A friend of mine who was also reading it finally threw it down and said she wouldn’t finish it. I persevered to the end but came away with a VERY bad taste in my mouth towards libertarian morality and foreign policy.

All those Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories are just that: stupid conspiracy theories. Just as bad as the 9/11 Truthers. As for myself, I will honor our heroic veterans. I will acknowledge that Hitler was a monster and needed to be stopped. WWII was a just war, no two ways about it, and I am grateful to all those who gave their lives so that I could be free.

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts.”–Winston Churchill

@ChangeForPerry

So Did Pat Buchanan.

Repair_Man_Jack (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 11:14AM EST (link)

And he’s still at it.

http://takimag.com/article/did_fdr_provoke_pearl_harbor#axzz1flRhyuOT
Does any man on the Right work harder to elect marginal Democrats?

Mr. Obama is pretending that an economic “recovery” is underway when he knows damn well that the banking system is just blowing smoke up the shredded *** of what’s left of that economy – James Howard Kunstler

Buchannan

Dave_A (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 12:04PM EST (link)

Has defended the Nazis for some time now….

Combined with his fear of ‘brown people’ destroying the west… It fits….

Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page

 
 
 
 

We cooperated with the British Navy

Dave_A (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 12:01PM EST (link)

Because the Germans were attacking US merchant ships…..

Not because of a conspiracy to get us into the war…

Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page

Cooperation with the British Navy Prior to WWII

kipling (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 1:31PM EST (link)

I am not aware that Germany attacked any U.S. ships prior to WWII. From what I read, Hitler wanted to avoid giving the U.S. a pretext for entering the war.

I am not advocating conspiracy. I am simply saying that FDR sought an incident that would allow him to move the country closer to war or at least some semblance of preparedness.

The cooperation between the British and the U.S. navies is pretty well documented. I do not fault FDR for that cooperation. Nor was he particularly conspiratorial about it.

I may be wrong. It has been years since I have followed the subject closely.

Hope all is well in Afghanistan. God bless! Goodnight Chesty!

pre-Pearl Harbor attacks by German U-boats

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 2:07PM EST (link)

USS Greer, attacked September 4, 1941, by U-652, no damage.
USS Kearney, torpedoed October 15, 1941 by U-568, 11 killed.
USS Reuben James, torpedoed Oct 31, 1941, by U-552 115 of 159 killed.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

pre-Pearl Harbor attacks on U.S. Navy ships by Germany

kipling (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 9:52PM EST (link)

Yes, I knew an undeclared naval war existed in the North Atlantic prior to December 7th, especially when the U.S. Navy took over protection for the Newfoundland to Iceland part of the British convoy system.

“The Americans certainly provided provocation, as Roosevelt responded to a torpedo attack on the destroyer Greer by denouncing the ‘piracy’ of the attack, an attack which the Greer had in fact provoked.” (Murray and Millett, A War To Be Won, p. 248-249)

The Greer, Kearney, and Reuben James were all torpedoed while protecting a British convoy from the German U-Boats.

FDR ordered the protection of the convoys. The protection of a combatants ships from their enemy during war is often considered provocation. That was my point.

I am not saying that FDR was wrong to do so. I am simply saying that he did. Nor, do I think that makes FDR just like the Nazis.

 
 
 
 
 

There is a huge difference between "if" and "did".

Tbone (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 10:24AM EST (link)

Neither Japan or Germany understood the industrial capacity of the US. The fact that we could build a ship every 4 days and planes by the 1000s backed by the true American Character was the determining factor.

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

 

Pearl Harbor and FDR's Deception

independentmike Wednesday, December 7th at 3:55PM EST (link)

In the last decade or so, with the FOIA release of thousands of WW II-era documents, it has become crystal clear that FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor. Even a Roosevelt fan like George Victor admits this fact in his new book The Pearl Harbor Myth: Rethinking the Unthinkable.

What is even more tragic and inexcusable is FDR’s pro-Soviet diplomacy against Japan, which led to the downfall of the moderate and pro-American Konoye government and to its being replaced by a rabidly anti-American cabal. That diplomacy included cutting off Japan’s supply of oil. Pat Buchanan just wrote a good opinion piece on this subject.

I think that is a quantum overstatement

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 4:12PM EST (link)

of the state of historical research on the subject.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

Pearl Harbor and FDR's Deception 2

independentmike Wednesday, December 7th at 4:18PM EST (link)

It’s not an overstatement at all. You might check out the BBC documentary Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor and/or read Robert Stinnett’s book Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor (after you read Victor’s book).

There is simply no doubt that FDR knew the Japanese were coming. Indeed, as Stinnett shows, FDR had decided months earlier to provoke Japan into attacking the US so he could use the attack as an excuse to enter WW II.

Hmmmm.. Pat Buchanan and the BBC?

Tbone (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 4:22PM EST (link)

Dude, why don’t you just saw off the top of you head, teaspoon out you brain and fill it with sawdust.

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

It's Not Just the BBC and Buchanan

independentmike Wednesday, December 7th at 4:37PM EST (link)

Have you even read Buchanan’s article on Pearl Harbor that I referenced? It’s based on a new release of Hoover’s book on FDR’s disastrous pre-war diplomacy and scheming.

Have you seen the BBC documentary? What exactly is wrong the BBC anyway? The BBC has done some excellent documentaries, such as their recent one on Pakistan (titled Secret Pakistan).

Before you decide to just swallow the traditional version of Pearl Harbor, you might read Victor’s and Stinnett’s books. Both are massively researched and include huge amounts of info from declassified files.

By the way, historian John Toland argued years ago that FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. You might start with his treatment of the subject.

If you don't know what's wrong with the BBC,

Tbone (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 7:08PM EST (link)

you are hopeless.

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

 
 
 

FDR

greyeagle Wednesday, December 7th at 9:15PM EST (link)

Churchill was FDR’s cousin, and Britain was about to go under. FDR had campaigned for a 3rd term on the promise “That our boys will never fight on foreign soil”. He wanted to help Churchill, but needed to wait for Japan to strike the first blow. The attack on Pearl Harbor knocked out most of the Pacific Fleet and most of the Air Corp. He them signed a law putting the Japanese in California into concentration camps. The government then took their farms and all their property. My parents lived in California at the time and saw all of this first hand. What was ironic that children of these same people in these camps signed up and served on the US side in the War. The Army Unit 442 with a motto of “Go For Broke”. There were a few that served in other units in Europe. A movie was made of the 442nd.

 
 
 

Roosevelt knew we were going to fight Hitler

rkcurtin Wednesday, December 7th at 4:20PM EST (link)

without a doubt as my step-father, just 18 years old, was in North Africa prior to December 7, 1941. Their orders were to hide out and not be detected by Axis forces.

They wanted to get troops over there before war was officially declared because of the U-boats and Luftwaffe.

 

Free advice for the RedState commentariat:

aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 8:02PM EST (link)

Whenever you find yourself writing, “Pat Buchanan just wrote a good opinion piece on this subject”, whether the subject matter is Nazis or tourniquet…

1) Remind yourself that “Pat Buchanan wrote the following” is only appropriate as alternate spelling for “Warning: Stupidity Ahead”.

2) Find out what your BAC level is.

3) Release the hostages, if they are still alive.

4) In the future, refrain from mixing your uppers with your downers.

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton

 
 

WW1 Treaty of Versaille Beget WWII.

maggiethatcher Wednesday, December 7th at 5:48PM EST (link)

I beg to differ, perhaps with all: World War 1 gave rise to WWII and Hitler, specifically with the Treaty of Versaille, where Britain and France insisted Germany repay them a huge debt with interest for the war. Whereas, without the U.S. both nations would be speaking German, the U.S. found it staggeringly unreasonable and — with the biggest price tag for THEIR war, walked away. As a result the German mark was crushed under their debt. Wheelbarrows of marks would buy some groceries; and then came Hitler to give them their self-respect back. To then invade all to blame for the destruction of the German mark, the German economy and therefore the German people. Without WW1, people, there would have been no WWII.

 
 

This event did not determine our role in world....

bri283 Wednesday, December 7th at 5:10PM EST (link)

… our RESPONSE to the event determined our role.

It was not the Japanese that determined America’s path, it was Americans. Big fail Redstate. Big fail.

Bri

thank you Mister Language Man

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 7:40PM EST (link)

while you’re counting #FAILs consider what we think of someone with a one day old account who acts like a douche.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

You've been outed, streiff.

aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 8:05PM EST (link)

It’s just like a sneaky Jap to give all the credit for American glories to the Emperor.

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton

 

Hmmm, rules?

bri283 Thursday, December 8th at 12:22AM EST (link)

No profanity. Says it in big bold letters. Or is calling someone a douche not considered profane here? sad. Fail #2 in 1 day.

Bri

 
 
 

A brief pause to remember some who gave all on this day

chub_in_carthage Wednesday, December 7th at 8:28PM EST (link)

KIDD, ISAAC CAMPBELL

Rank and organization: Rear Admiral, U.S. Navy. Born: 26 March 1884, Cleveland, Ohio. Appointed from: Ohio.

Citation:
For conspicuous devotion to duty, extraordinary courage and complete disregard of his own life, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor, by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. Rear Adm. Kidd immediately went to the bridge and, as Commander Battleship Division One, courageously discharged his duties as Senior Officer Present Afloat until the U.S.S. Arizona, his Flagship, blew up from magazine explosions and a direct bomb hit on the bridge which resulted in the loss of his life.

*SCOTT, ROBERT R.

Rank and Organization:: Machinist’s Mate First Class, U.S. Navy. Born: 13 July 1915, Massillon, Ohio. Accredited to Ohio.

Citation:
For conspicuous devotion to duty, extraordinary courage and complete disregard of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. The compartment, in the U.S.S. California, in which the air compressor, to which Scott was assigned as his battle station, was flooded as the result of a torpedo hit. The remainder of the personnel evacuated that compartment but Scott refused to leave, saying words to the effect “This is my station and I will stay and give them air as long as the guns are going.”

*REEVES, THOMAS JAMES

Rank and Organization:: Radio Electrician (Warrant Officer) U.S. Navy. Born: 9 December 1895, Thomaston, Conn. Accredited To: Connecticut.

Citation:
For distinguished conduct in the line of his profession, extraordinary courage and disregard of his own safety during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor, by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. After the mechanized ammunition hoists were put out of action in the U.S.S. California, Reeves, on his own initiative, in a burning passageway, assisted in the maintenance of an ammunition supply by hand to the antiaircraft guns until he was overcome by smoke and fire, which resulted in his death.

15 Medals of Honor were earned on that day. 10 posthumously

 

We'd

trevorb (Diary) Wednesday, December 7th at 9:10PM EST (link)

better remember this lesson, because I think we’re going to be fighting another war on a similar scale, this time against China. We survived being unprepared because we were much bigger and stronger than Japan. We won’t survive that mistake again.