[UPDATE]: Update to this story here. It’s a bit long to just paste onto here, so let me summarize: Sen. Paul is indicating that he was kept in a cubicle for at least an hour and a half and that the TSA turned out not to need him to do a mandatory pat-down after all. To me it sounds like a detention, and I will continue to have a problem with that when it comes to a US Senator.
The Daily Caller reports: the short version is, the TSA in Nashville detained Senator Rand Paul (R, KY) after their body scanner went on the fritz and the Senator refused to submit to a full-body pat-down. Senator Paul was scheduled to speak to March for Life this morning as part of their anniversary rally against Roe v. Wade: it’s now an open question whether he’s going to be able to, now. As somebody noted to me privately: if this was any other Senator you could reasonably expect grandstanding, but Senator Paul is precisely the sort of person who will stubbornly force the TSA to embarrass itself by detaining a Senator on a matter of personal liberty. Particularly since Senator Paul’s ongoing opposition to full-body pat-downs is quite well known.
In other words: this is what civil disobedience looks like.
Moe Lane (crosspost)
PS: By the way? As ABC News is actually pointing out, Senators have the following Constitutionally enumerated right: “They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same;”(Article I, Section 6). Senate’s in session today; so let’s see, once and for all, whether Harry Reid’s a true Senator, or just this administration’s lap dog…
Victoria Coates
Daniel Horowitz
A couple critiques
Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 12:21PM EST (link)1) This wasn’t a “randomly selected patdown”, he set off the alarm and therefor was pulled out. Anyone in that situation (even prior to the TSA) would have been subjected to that.
2) He isn’t being arrested. Simply put, until he undergoes said pat down, he CANNOT enter the restricted area of the airport. This is a security feature, not a criminal one.
For Article 1 Section 6 purposes he was arrested
RoguePolitics (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 12:33PM EST (link)The obvious purpose of the clause is to prevent members of congress from being prevented from attendance in congress.
The senate IS in session today.
Not being allowed to fly will definitely prevent Paul from attending the Senate. His progress towards that goal has been arrested. Arrest doesn’t only mean handcuffs and locked doors.
TRANSITIVE VERB
ar·rest·ed past and past participle
ar·rest·ing present participle
ar·rests 3rd person present singular
1. criminal law take somebody into custody: to seize and take somebody into legal custody
2. stop something: to stop or slow something ( formal )
“a mechanism that arrests the motion of the flywheel”
3. take hold of something: to suddenly capture and hold something, especially somebody’s attention ( formal )
“an astonishing sight that arrested our attention”
4. seize something legally: to seize or detain something by legal authority ( formal )
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
arrest implies being charged with a crime, whereas seizures are more broad
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 10:58PM EST (link)and subject to a much lesser standard or reasonableness; whereas arrests must be based upon probable cause.
The real issue though, is as you imply; what did the Framers mean by arrest in Art 1 sec 8, which was written before the 4th Amendment and so we may be wrong to think that the Framers were thinking of Art 1 Sec 8 when they wrote the latter.
Its a complicated matter. There may or may not be an answer in either the Federalist papers or case law and I am happy to report that I don’t have the time to do the research required due to actual paying legal clients!
smile
But, I would wager, given my experience in the area of criminal and constitutional law, based upon the facts as reported, that Rand was not arrested in violation of Art 1 Sec 8.
imho
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
but even if this were defined as an "arrest", I think the breach of the peace exception
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 11:00PM EST (link)covers the TSA butt
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Can't say it is a CYA thing for the TSA
RoguePolitics (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 11:13PM EST (link)I can’t see anybody in DC having the “gravitas” to do anything.
But clearly the clause was meant to ensure members were not hindered by trivial matters from attending sessions of congress.
Since TSA itself is far outside the bounds of constitutional legality and they have proven to be utter failures at everything they do, it can only be classified as trivially preventing a senator from traveling freely to and from congress.
As Aesthete pointed out somewhere around here, it is impossible for TSA to make a legitimate case for detaining Paul on security grounds.
But it does lay the groundwork for future harrassment.
Glad to hear the change is rattling again.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
"the clause was clearly meant..." - Many hours of legal research would be required
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, January 24th at 9:59AM EST (link)to get to “clearly”. But my experience in this area convinces me that the better case would be more easily made for TSA based on the facts and circumstances as related in news reports.
See also “thete says case is “impossible” to make. Again, many hours of research would be required before one could get close to saying “impossible”.
And yes, I doubt Rand bring as a case because he was not arrested for a crime and did make it to the Session.He was temporarily delayed. Much ado about nothing.
Can’t count all the would be clients whose cases I refused to take that were convinced about what was “clear” and “impossible”…smile
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
555! Clients tend to suffer from one of two opposite misperceptions
JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, January 24th at 10:17AM EST (link)(1) That a case is so cut and dried that nobody could possible raise any type of counter argument OR
(2) That winning a case is just a matter of expensive lawyering
My ex-wife called such thinking (in a different context) the “Madonna-whore” complex.
Precious little in the law is clear (if by that one means incontestable) and the scope of the “impossible” is just a tad larger.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Mike JSob I am not talking about our self absorbed little world today.
RoguePolitics (Diary) Tuesday, January 24th at 12:47PM EST (link)After 224 years of talmudic interpretations by the Nazgul whose only effect, and likely only purpose, has been to obscure, denigrate and bastardize the constitution and common law principles; it is no surprise that learned men doubt the ground they stand on or universe they live in.
And hopefully without insult I will surrender to both of you the modern, nothing can ever be known for certain, view of the law and philosophy.
For better or worse you have both been through the Hogwarts school and have acquired a set of seeing stones that allow you to see the words between, beneath and under the plain language of the constitution and to conjure apparitions from the bones of common law.
And that is useful for we live in a world in which the foundations have been uprooted, logic has been banished and every written word can be “lawyershopped” into any other word.
On your point 1. JSob. I agree in the modern context and even in an ancient Bleak House sort of a way. Parties can always find a reason to contend and basis for believing themselves in the right.
On point 2. you are mostly wrong. I am not a particularly litigious fellow but the times I have been willing to spend the money and lawyer up, I have always, without exception, won in the end.
With a meager few exceptions, the only time spending the money doesn’t bring victory is when both sides are willing to spend the money. Then it comes down to who plays golf with the judge.
I’ll take the nation where common men, using common sense, can read the laws and the constitution and reach solid conclusions on what they mean. Yes, men will always disagree but then 12 men and women, will sit and listen to both sides, and apply their common sense without the filter of the judge’s seeing stones, and deliver a verdict that ordinary people can understand and see the justice in.
The reason GC, I can say “clearly” is because the clause either means that or is entirely without purpose. It doesn’t belong in the constitution at all if not to protect members from harassment.
Which brings us to the “Breach of The Peace” part of the equation. Was Paul “breaching the peace?”
One of the beautiful aspects of the whole common law framework was the ability of the common man to understand the law.
Bleak House occurred in the Court of Chancery. In a common law court it would have ended before the fortune was exhausted.
Breach of the peace is a common law term. To understand what it means we only need to examine what it would have meant, in the common law, in 1792.
Blackstone’s Commentaries, used pretty heavily during early America says :
1. The riotous assembling of twelve persons or more, and not dispersing upon proclamation.
2. Unlawful hunting.
3. Sending threatening letters or extortion.
4. To pull down or destroy any lock, sluice, or floodgate erected by authority of parliament on a navigable river
5.Affrays; the fighting of two or more persons in some public place.
6. Riots, routs, and unlawful assemblies must have three persons at least to constitute them.
7. Tumultuous petitioning. (of the first amendment kind.)
8. Forcible entry or detainer.
9. The offence of riding or going armed with dangerous or unusual weapons.
10. Spreading false news, to make discord between the king and nobility.
11. False and pretended prophecies, with intent to disturb the peace.
12. Besides actual breaches of the peace, anything that tends to provoke or excite others to break it is an offence.
13. Of a nature very similar to challenges are libels, libelli famosi.
Obviously these are abbreviated and the actual text is a little longer. It is also true that the common law can by its nature evolve with the times. It is pretty clear Paul was doing nothing like what Blackstone describes.
The English definition according to Wikipedia “defines a breach of the peace as existing whether harm is actually done, or is likely to be done, to a person or his property, or a person is in fear of being harmed through an assault, an affray, a riot, an unlawful assembly, or some other form of disturbance.”
The Scots definition from Wikipedia is “conduct severe enough to cause alarm to ordinary people and threaten serious disturbance to the community.”
Seems farfetched to say Paul’s actions fit either description. There was no imminent harm nor is it likely anybody was alarmed.
Clearly (and I use that word in its full legal sense) Paul was not committing a Breach of The Peace.
For everybody who says he was committing a felony if TSA says so, we are totally in the midst then of executive branch terror. It is almost certain he was acting contrary to TSA procedures or regulations, if anything, not a defined law. These would be procedures or regulations promulgated by the executive branch.
If we are going to allow for those to constitute a felony or a Breach of the Peace (as required by Art 1 Sect 6) then at any time the President will be able to exert his regulatory power to punish the political opposition, hinder their attendance at congressional sessions, create any sort of mischief to force his will on congress.
Tens of thousands of pages of law, hundreds of thousands of pages of regulations, deliberately convoluted grammatical constructs and a nationwide system of conflicting bureaucracies, rent-seeking Friends-of-Bill, influence peddling courtiers and nobody willing to pull out the plain language of the constitution, stick it in the face of some scumbag TSA welfare recipient thug and say eat this you PoS.
Not one damn person willing to draw a line in the sand and say HERE WE SHALL STAND except that his motives are questioned, his line is critiqued for exact placement and the very ground he stands on is undermined by his own side.
All of that is bad enough but worse is this judicial system with its stare decisis that builds error upon error, extinguishing common sense and replacing it with some hellish construct of intellect that turns murder into a choice and a common cold into interstate commerce.
This is how a tyranny is built.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
Actually, we legal laureates are trained to think in terms of SCOTUS decisions and precedents...
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Tuesday, January 24th at 12:52PM EST (link)We’re positively set adrift in cases like this where Article I “arrest” has never been defined, at least not since the ancient British Parliament.
To the extent I said it, that is exactly what I mean.
RoguePolitics (Diary) Tuesday, January 24th at 1:32PM EST (link)And it is not just legal laureates.
NOBODY wants to just look at the plain language, set in the time it was written, and bluntly say what it says.
Everybody wants to climb up on their chair like they saw a mouse and wait for the “experts” in black to pontificate on what english words mean.
Instead of vocally proclaiming to these witch kings, “WE KNOW WHAT IT MEANS AND YOU’D BETTER NOT TRY ANY S!!T.”
We sat around on pins and needles waiting for these creeps to decide Heller because we didn’t KNOW we have a right to bear arms until they told us.
And now we wait for their enlightment regarding ObamCare.
This is not how liberty works.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
Fair points, RoguePolitics. Thanks (nt)
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Tuesday, January 24th at 1:36PM EST (link)When DeVine Law Gamecock receives a $1500 retainer and full legal briefs
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, January 24th at 3:24PM EST (link)we will respond further…smile
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
In order:
Moe Lane (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 12:35PM EST (link)1). At no time did I or anyone else that I linked to refer to this as a ‘randomly selected patdown.’ Read my posts before you comment on them.
2). At no time did I or anyone else that I linked to refer to this as Rand Paul being ‘arrested.’ The term ‘arrest’ does appear in the quoted text from the Constitution, but in a general fashion that has largely been interpreted to mean that federal legislators may not be harassed on the way to and from Congress (among other things). Read my posts before you comment on them.
Don’t do that again.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
I read it
Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 12:49PM EST (link)1) I wasn’t accusing you or anyone of saying it was randomly selected, only that he was told to get a pat down because he triggered an alarm. Randomly selecting a Senator is an entirely different game from him triggering an alarm.
2) He is preventing himself. It appears that if he gets the pat down (assuming he isn’t packing) he gets to fly. That isn’t detaining in any sense, it is a choice he is making.
Do not insult my intelligence, Death_of_the_Donkey.
Moe Lane (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 12:54PM EST (link)You titled your comment “A couple critiques,” and then proceeded to make straw man arguments in the body of said comment. Don’t weasel out of it now.
Quit while you’re behind.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
I don't think it's appropriate to quote ABC's quote either
johnjohn23 Monday, January 23rd at 4:59PM EST (link)With all due respect Moe , he might be free to leave and just choosing to stay because he wants a flight. He’s free to drive where he’s going, and he’s even free to get on the flight if he chooses to take a patdown. It’s not accurate to say they are free from “harassment” either (as your response said), in fact, lots of people (both executive and normal citizens) make a living harassing senators to and from Congress, they’re not violating to Constitution, and neither is compliance with a non-specific rule passed by the executive.
The quoted paragraph is to prevent the executive from denying a sitting Congressmen the power to get to Congress to vote or to intrude upon the sanctity of a sitting Congress. (You could see how it would be an obvious separation of powers issue if the executive just started arresting people en route to votes it didn’t like) It has nothing to do with a senator getting his preferred method of transport to speak at a march. Under ABC’s line of thinking, it would be improper to arrest a senator for speeding or reckless driving in a car en route to the March while Congress sat.
Finally, Paul is either not detained (in the legal sense, i.e. arrested) or he’s detained in connection with regulations that are almost certainly felonies to violate. So ABC is wrong on it applying in the first place and wrong again because if it did apply the exception would apply as well. It doesn’t add anything to the issue to point it out.
I hate waiting in line, I hate the TSA, most of us do. It is a stupid thing and frankly, kind of pointless. But the fact that they stopped a Senator doesn’t mean anything, and as you have pointed out, this clearly wasn’t a random-selection thing so it’s not like the government is targeting him. Is it interesting that a prominent libertarian is annoyed with the TSA? Kind of. Does the fact that it’s a Senator or a Paul somehow make the TSA especially stupid today? Not really, they’re stupid every day. That’s the story, not this other stuff :/
It is obvious he is being detained
altexas Monday, January 23rd at 12:58PM EST (link)Facts are stubborn things.
Per your #2
aesthete (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 10:23PM EST (link)That is the definition of civil disobedience: lawfully resisting a law in the hopes that it will reveal that law’s flaws. The point you’re making is the equivalent of someone saying that Rosa Parks was impairing her own mobility by refusing to sit at the back of the bus: inasmuch as the point is to showcase a bad system, this statement somewhat misses the point, methinks…
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Moe...sir...;
anjinconsulting Monday, January 23rd at 1:11PM EST (link)What evidence would substantiate your assertion that the term “arrest” as it has been used in the Constitution has “largely been interpreted to mean that federal legislators may not be harassed on the way to and from Congress (among other things)”? From what I have read about the construction of the constitution and the language used therein, the words mean very explicit things; or in some cases the ambiguity was intentional so as not to bind the power of the individual states that were going to sign the document. If the proscription of arrest were intended to include “detention”, that word or some similar phraseology would have been incorporated. If I apply your argument using the logic you provided, a senator or a representative transiting to or from his session of congress (and not to some other meeting or function like a protest) could claim “harassment” based on any variety of perceived grievances.
Having said that, I agree that the instance as reported here does present an issue for public discussion; primarily those certain individuals who clearly do not present a threat to the flying public such as the elderly, the frail, toddlers and current federal/state elected officials with no criminal history might warrant some limited waiver from the otherwise blind stupidity of the TSA security process. IF El Al can scrutinize the flying public with non-invasive methods and fly without a terrorist related accident, then surely America’s airline operators and the government could learn from them.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. – George Santayana
No man has any more intrinsic right to offical station than another. Those who hold government jobs for a long time are apt to acquire a habit of looking with indifference upon the public interests, and of tolerating conduct from which an unpracticed man would revolt. – Andrew Jackson
A detention becomes an arrest if it lasts too long.
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:18PM EST (link)Is the Senator still being held against his will?
This is actually a subject for lively debate...
Moe Lane (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:32PM EST (link)…among people interested in the topic generally, not to mention various and sundry of the Contributors.
As I understand it, there’s a vague line that generally says that you can’t use this argument to get out of, say, a DUI (and it’s been tried); whether it would apply to being pulled over for, say, speeding hasn’t been really addressed yet. As to the specific situation… I am very, very leery of any situation where there is even the appearance of impropriety when it comes to keeping a member of Congress from returning to Congress.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
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My (combined) wish list.
Has to apply in this situation
RoguePolitics (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:52PM EST (link)An exception is made for breach of the piece which a DUI would reasonably fall under.
This is more an arrest for a search that is not even predicated on a “probable cause” pretext.
All of the folks who are debating that this was not an arrest haven’t read the definition of arrest or given the slightest thought to original intent.
Arrest doesn’t mean handcuffs and prison bars for the purpose of the clause. It means stopping him from attending a session of the senate. The means of doing this is not relevant. What if by “chance” he were accidentally put on a no fly list? Just before a seemingly “unimportant” vote?
Even the reason is not important because we might never know the reason for preventing his ability to cast a vote. Could be the work of some bureaucrat in some obscure agency who is affected by the legislationand has a buddy in the TSA who just happened to “notice” a glitch. That is not a grand conspiracy, just two guys.
Saying he could drive is ridiculous given the time differential between the two modes of transportation it would clearly unduly burden his ability to be present while the business of the senate is being conducted.
And it is THAT object for which the clause exists.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
I disagree; someone above did actually read the definition
anjinconsulting Monday, January 23rd at 3:19PM EST (link)and provided a superlative definition of the transitive verb “arrest”.
Could you cite some reference for your claim that “[a]rrest doesn’t mean handcuffs and prison bars for the purpose of the clause”? I’m not trying to be a lawyer, I just want to be able to judge the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. – George Santayana
No man has any more intrinsic right to offical station than another. Those who hold government jobs for a long time are apt to acquire a habit of looking with indifference upon the public interests, and of tolerating conduct from which an unpracticed man would revolt. – Andrew Jackson
Oi vey
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 3:41PM EST (link)You can be arrested without handcuffs and booking. Trust me.
Here’s the case law on point.
A good place to get informed is here.
I suspect “arrest” in Article 1 may have a much different meaning than it does under cases following the Fourth Amendment.
kowalski
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 4:12PM EST (link)In Terry versus Ohio , the Court said, “It must be recognized that whenever a police officer accosts an individual and restrains his freedom to walk away, he has “seized” that person.”.
I think it is imperative to make the distinction
anjinconsulting Monday, January 23rd at 5:45PM EST (link)between being “arrested” and unreasonable search and seizure. Rand Paul was not “arrested” nor was he unreasonably “seized”. Paul (and more so his staff) is simply crying wolf.
I am not advocating the behavior of the TSA in fact, on the whole I find the screening process to be only mildly effective, executed by amateurs and overseen by a bunch of bureaucrats. The fact that they are unionized makes no difference with regard to their training, their proficiency or their capabilities. But seriously, there are better ways to illustrate the buffoonery that is the TSA screening process.
I for one am glad to see the congressman flying commercial and being subjected to the stupidity that is the TSA. After all, it was an act of Congress that put it in place. Too bad an act of Congress cannot abolish it.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. – George Santayana
No man has any more intrinsic right to offical station than another. Those who hold government jobs for a long time are apt to acquire a habit of looking with indifference upon the public interests, and of tolerating conduct from which an unpracticed man would revolt. – Andrew Jackson
I think it is imperative to make the distinction
anjinconsulting Monday, January 23rd at 5:45PM EST (link)between being “arrested” and unreasonable search and seizure. Rand Paul was not “arrested” nor was he unreasonably “seized”. Paul (and more so his staff) is simply crying wolf.
I am not advocating the behavior of the TSA in fact, on the whole I find the screening process to be only mildly effective, executed by amateurs and overseen by a bunch of bureaucrats. The fact that they are unionized makes no difference with regard to their training, their proficiency or their capabilities. But seriously, there are better ways to illustrate the buffoonery that is the TSA screening process.
I for one am glad to see the congressman flying commercial and being subjected to the stupidity that is the TSA. After all, it was an act of Congress that put it in place. Too bad an act of Congress cannot abolish it.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. – George Santayana
No man has any more intrinsic right to offical station than another. Those who hold government jobs for a long time are apt to acquire a habit of looking with indifference upon the public interests, and of tolerating conduct from which an unpracticed man would revolt. – Andrew Jackson
There is a difference between you being arrested and a member of congress
RoguePolitics (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 9:22PM EST (link)For the purpose of the clause causing a congressmen to miss a vote or a speech is sufficient to call it arrested. Or stopped.
Otherwise we could have any sort of (non-official-definition-of) arrests being used to prevent members from participating in sessions.
Saying he must drive instead of fly is structurally the same as requiring he walk instead of ride a horse 200 years ago. It easily doubles or quadruples the travel time.
It does matter that they are unionized. Union members are less efficient and more prone to being obstinate with customers. They just don’t care.
The screening process is totally ineffective. The Terrrorist Safety Agency has never stopped a terrorist from doing anything. They serve only one purpose, to ensure if any more Islamonazi’s get onboard with a nail file NOBODY will have a pair of tweezers to fight back with.
They are totally ineffective. So much so that they had failure rates of 90% or more at detecting weapons BEFORE they CLASSIFIED their putried record so now we are supposed to believe that in SECRET they got better.
Right.
TSA can’t suck enough. If you think they are keeping you safe you are [Be respectful, or be banned.] [Be respectful, or be banned.] [Be respectful, or be banned.]
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
There are two questions in play, here:
aesthete (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 10:29PM EST (link)First, the question of whether this is legal. This is somewhat vague, given both the ABC reference noted by Moe, and the longstanding complaints against the patdown on the part of some conservatives and libertarians on 4th Am grounds.
Second, is this a good system? I would think not: a Senator is not a prospective terrorist, and there is nothing in Rand Paul’s destination or background that indicates anything out of the ordinary. It really shows how arbitrary, wasteful, and stupid our system is, that it keeps finding Senators to search or inconvenience in lieu of more logical targets.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
That was me that looked it up.
RoguePolitics (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 9:04PM EST (link)The folks who wrote the constitution knew the meaning of words. Many studied Latin, from which arrest is derived. Or they spoke French which uses arrêt as equivalent. They also studied etymology if they didn’t study Latin or French.
We have arrived at a definition today of arrest meaning “detained” by the police as a legal matter with a clearly court defined set of parameters
Point 2 in the definition above shows that is obviously not true.
But even less so 225 years ago. One reference “to catch and hold” is from 1814.
Look at the etymology:
From reference.com
Word Origin & History
arrest
“to cause to stop,” also “to detain legally,” late 14c., from O.Fr. arester “to stay, stop,” from V.L. *arrestare (cf. It. arrestare, Sp., Port. arrestar), from L. ad- “to” + restare “to stop, remain behind, stay back,” from re- “back” + stare “to stand,” from PIE base *sta- “to stand” (see stet). Fig. sense of “to catch and hold” (the attention, etc.) is from 1814.
From Wikipedia
The word “Arrest” is Anglo-Norman in origin, derived from the French word arrêt meaning ‘to stop or stay’ and signifies a restraint of a person.
{Some French and Quebec stop signs still say “ARRET” today}
If you look further you’ll see restrain is from the same root.
Given the context of the sentence in Article 1 Section 6 it is obvious they were trying to prevent members from being harrassed or detained on their way to, from or during sessions of congress.They didn’t want the governor of North Carolina or a sheriff from Abermarle interfering in national politics. It is also certain they didn’t want the federal executive branch harrassing political opposition or trying to control the outcome of congressional business either. As happened here.
Paul has said he doubts this was malicious and I would agree it probably wasn’t. The constitution doesn’t make that distinction. The onus is not therefore on Paul to prove it was but for Obama to prove it wasn’t.
As somebody pointed out, one can hardly expect former welfare cheats and illegal immigrants to make salient constitutional distinctions while the line builds, all the more reason to never allow them to be in a position where such a decision needs to be rendered.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
If you arent' free to leave, and it's not a traffic stop, you're under arrest!
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:10PM EST (link)Goodness!
Under arrest means you'll be booked
tailfins1959 Monday, January 23rd at 1:30PM EST (link)Being detained means you might not be booked. If you find yourself in such an undesirable situation here are “10 rules for dealing with the police”
You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf
The is a four video series
tailfins1959 Monday, January 23rd at 1:32PM EST (link)Click on the yellow next video tab when near the end of the current video.
You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf
According to what I have read
Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:31PM EST (link)he was never truly detained. He was escorted out of the secure part of the airport. Presumably at that point he was free to leave the airport and rent a car or get a ride back to DC/another airport. If it turns out that he was taken to a room somewhere and made to sit until he agreed to the pat down, then I will agree with Moe that it was a breach of the Constitution, until then, the information we have now indicates that he was inconvenienced, not detained.
From what I understand of the situation...
Moe Lane (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:36PM EST (link)…he was at least escorted elsewhere for a time, but was able to take a later flight (and I’m going to guess that Rand Paul didn’t submit to the pat-down that time, either). I personally think even that was too far, but enough people are disagreeing with me on that that I’ll file it under YMMV.
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It depends on how long he was detained and why.
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:41PM EST (link)Investigatory detentions are not arrests as long as they take no longer than necessary.
Nevermind - LA Times says he wasn't detained.
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 2:02PM EST (link)He was just denied access to his gate. That’s pretty far outside the privilege against being arrested in civil cases (contempt or subpoena). And it’s definitely not an arrest.
it turns out that TSA had a valid reason for detaining rand paul at the airport.
mikeymike143 (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 2:46PM EST (link)he was caught trying to smuggle in black market tinfoil for his dad.
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I read your caption and I bit.
earlgrey (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 2:50PM EST (link)$#%#
Good for Sen. Rand Paul
runner12 (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 12:28PM EST (link)It is a rare thing when a politician actually stands on principle.
“Those who trade liberty for security deserve neither.” -John Adams
He might be arrested
f224 Monday, January 23rd at 12:42PM EST (link)Unlike years past, if you set off the alarm or try to leave the screening check point after entry and prior to being cleared. The TSA will have you arrested for interference with Federal Agents.
Captain Dave Funk
Northwest Airlines (Ret.)
LairdAssoc.com
Rand Paul and the TSA
wayneinnh (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 12:58PM EST (link)From my misguided youth (TSA message starts at 0:46.)
Jon 14:6 –
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
It’s not intellectual to believe we evolved from hydrogen gas.
Great diary, Moe! This is an unconstitutional outrage (nt)
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:06PM EST (link)I guess my Question would be:
funwithknives Monday, January 23rd at 1:17PM EST (link)did the TSA employee in charge of turning on the scanner actually do so? {A K A: DUUHHH!} Dealing with these “protectors of freedom ” ,can often be most humorous,insofar as average intelligence is concerned.
Better yet, show us the Maintenance records and let’s see if it was working properly, or not. Taking bets on That?
Ever challenged a radar ticket for speeding?
“Tell the court ,Officer, had you calibrated the unit when starting your shift, per departmental directives”? Used and is effective , from personal experience.
Defund the TSA. (n/t)
Finrod (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 1:34PM EST (link).
Let’s get down to brass tacks here. How much for the ape?
go rand
swi2522 Monday, January 23rd at 1:47PM EST (link)this is why i like this guy so much and he would make a great president. he answers questions being straightforward and i believe he is a man of good moral virtues
I Can't Believe What I Just Read !
carolynr Monday, January 23rd at 2:09PM EST (link)This TSA (unionized AT THAT) should be outlawed. They knew good and well who he was. Again…THUGGERY. This is Chicago style politics and it gets into every facet of our government.
Every time I flew, I had to give up my tweezers….Every time. I am a senior, white and small….tweezers! Know what…I don’t fly anymore.
The fact that these people are unionized makes me uncomfortable also…because if they strike…airlines cannot function…nobody goes anywhere. The stupid people that put this in place should all be gone.
Oh..btw..I believe in PROFILING
Unionized is a good point
RoguePolitics (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 2:15PM EST (link)Could be as simple as SEIU wanted Paul to miss a vote and a shop steward got the word.
If not this time then next time after the precedent has been set.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
It appears to be resolved
steeltube Monday, January 23rd at 2:12PM EST (link)Sen. Paul was booked on another flight and is on his way back to Washington per ABC News.
I think the word detained (as it applies to this story) originated from a Paul staffer who tweeted his boss was “detained” after talking with him on the phone.
I guess I would like to know if Sen Paul was given a chance to leave the terminal and go home (or go across the street and rent a car) after he set off the alarm and then chose to not submit to a patdown. Would I be given that opportunity?
What if a person set off the alarm because he actually had malice in mind and had items on him to further that intent? Would he be permitted to just leave that area and go home? A mandatory patdown after triggering the alarm would discover his plan and perhaps prevent a future catastrophe yes?
Unless someone at the TSA recognized Rand Paul and purposely set out to ruin his day then I can’t get too excited. And assuming that was not the case it’s a bit too much to ask the $8.00 an hour screeners to be up on Article 1 of the Constitution.
On the BIG picture of screening I find myself torn. Its very analogous in my mind to police random road checks. I don’t like them but I also don’t want myself of my loved ones having drunk drivers sharing our roads.
Have to decide if we want the Constitution to apply even when it makes us feel uncomfortable
RoguePolitics (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 2:21PM EST (link)“On the BIG picture of screening I find myself torn. Its very analogous in my mind to police random road checks. I don’t like them but I also don’t want myself of my loved ones having drunk drivers sharing our roads.”
I am terrified my loved ones will be killed by a driver distracted by a billboard on the side of the highway.
The thought leaves me terribly uncomfortable.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
He must not have followed these simple steps
Caleb Howe (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 3:02PM EST (link)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Key-27CXHBA
Caleb Howe (formerly known as absentee)
5 @ Caleb Howe
jakeofalltrades (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 3:28PM EST (link)I thought that was real until like a minute in!
“At this point, the TSA officer will direct you to the backscatter machine. But don’t let the intimidating name fool you: this is nothing more than a simple and easy process of bombarding you with powerful radiation that allows us to see through your clothing. One or more TSA officers alone in a small dark room will then spend a few moments with the of your naked body until they are… satisfied.”
“Think of it as a sort of free massage from the TSA, and who doesn’t want something free in this economy?”
“The TSA agent will then proceed to use his or her hand to gently crush you from head to toe.”
“We discourage use of any of our alarm words during the process. These would be words like: bomb, terror, no, ouch, junk, trunk. mommy, help!, or “please stop putting that in there.”
Devil's advocate moment...
anotherindyfilmguy (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 3:20PM EST (link)The no arrest/detention deal also says except in the case of a felony or breach of the peace.
It’s meant to keep politicians from being held up for political purposes and there had better be a real legal reason for holding them up in that circumstance.
In this case Rand Paul made his own problem by refusing to follow the regulations/law which might be considered a breach of the peace even if it does not rise to the status of a felony offense.
Ain’t much love for the TSA out there but in this case this comes across to me as potentially self serving grandstanding.
Santorum? Well, at least he’s not Romney…
http://www.zazzle.com/enemy_of_the_statist_tshirt-235977043035297478
Not a constitutional issue
pstam2 Monday, January 23rd at 5:04PM EST (link)I am sure you felt the same way about Cynthia Mckinney’s “civil disobedience.”
He bought a ticket on a private airline. When he bought the ticket he agreed, explicitly and in writing, to consent to a pat-down if the full body scanner showed something suspicious. The full body scanner showed something suspicious, he refused the pat down which he previously agreed to in writing when he bought the ticket. So he was not allowed to go to his gate.
The police cannot pat you down for no reason. A bouncer at a nightclub can. If you dont like it, dont go to the nightclub. If he didnt want to be patted down, why did he agree to it beforehand when he bought his ticket (and yes, this is terms of buying almost all airline tickets).
This is not a constitutional issue.
.
johnjohn23 Monday, January 23rd at 5:32PM EST (link)He bought a ticket that mandated a pat down as part of compliance with federal law, so there is federal action here, but I agree it’s not a constitutional issue, because he’s not going to Congress and bringing illegal things on planes is probably a felony.
That's future Vice President Paul to you
Change Jar Conservative (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 5:50PM EST (link)Carney should be fired for not knowing the constitution or at least acting like he doesn’t.
I have become convinced that Ron Paul will trade in his delegates for Rand to be the VP for Newt or Romney. And that doesn’t make me as uncomfortable as it probably should.
********
Formerly know as “Oz” in these parts
What if this had happened to let's say Sheila Jackson Lee?
bk (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 5:58PM EST (link)If someone from TSA had told SJL she needed to submit to a patdown, how different would the reactions and reporting be?
Would the White House be praising the TSA actions?
Would the press be acting like she was a crybaby?
Would all the Democrats be silent?
This reminds me of an official TSA blog post:
aesthete (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 10:46PM EST (link)“TSA Top 10 Good Catches of 2011″
Interestingly, none of these top ten items were terrorists, radicalized Muslim young men, or the plot to any terror attacks. Plenty of pets, legal, unloaded firearms, inert weapons, aliens, and a science project made the list, though.
http://blog.tsa.gov/2012/01/tsa-top-10-good-catches-of-2011.html
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
"Stay In The Cubicle" If that isn't an "arrest", what is?
audax (Diary) Monday, January 23rd at 11:52PM EST (link)Under color of authority, Senator paul was ordered to “stay in the cubicle”. That is an “arrest”. The TSA trampled on the wrong Senators perogative to travel to the opening of a Senate session ergo they trampled on the Constitition Article 1 Section 6. Anything else is playing with words. Time to finally end this travesty of Justice called the TSA.
As a US citizen, I have flown into, and out of the US once since Nov 2007. I see no reason to return to the police state called Amerika until the TSA is disbanded.
Audeamus pro audere est facere