With the disingenuous premise that the majority of Republican voters are actually pro-abortion, Republican Majority for Choice is celebrating President Obama’s repeal of the policy that prohibits federal money from flowing to foreign abortion mills — variously called the Mexico City Policy, the family planning gag rule, or the global gag rule.
This group forms a sort of enemy within that, while small, has great appeal to the far left in America when they are looking to promote what they consider “reasonable” Republicans — and by “reasonable” they mean Republicans that don’t actually believe in anything other Republicans believe in. This being the case, there is no surprise that this group’s largest success is found in the quixotic state of Colorado they having garnered the support of long-time Colorado Republican Hank Brown — former Senator and late president of the University of Colorado.
In their press release, the RMC claimed that “millions of Republicans” support their cause:
The global gag rule has been a massive obstacle in efforts to provide safe and effective medical care to the most underserved populations around the world. Millions of Republicans across the country supported overturning this measure and stand with us in support of desperately needed international family planning funds,” said Kellie Ferguson, RMC Executive Director.
Millions? Really? By what reckoning do they say this as if it were overwhelming? There are around 55 million Americans that have registered as Republican, which is well and good, but how does the RMC know that “millions” of those voters are on their side? Well, as proof of their majority status they cite a flawed phone poll of 1,006 respondents that claims that 78 percent of Republicans support their pro-abortion position.
Using their poll results, the RMC has opposed the confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito as well as that of the excellent nominee for the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals, Judge William Pryor, back in 2005. This same group also launched an effort to defeat Mitt Romney’s candidacy for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination because of his stance against abortion. This group funded anti-Romney TV ads urging voters to reject the then anti-abortion Romney. (The co-chair of the RMC, Jennifer Stockman, was a Giuliani supporter) This group also refused to support McCain/Palin after the party made its choice last September so it also did not fall into line to support the party in 2008.
As you can see, the RMC, formerly the Republican Pro-Choice Coalition, is a group that routinely attacks its own side (if you can accept they actually are Republicans in the first place, that is) and publicly works to defeat the majority opinions of the Republican Party.
But what about their claim that most Republicans are actually “pro-choice” but don’t know it? This is the claim the RMC bases on its 2004 phone poll. I think that what the RMC mistakes for a pro-abortion sentiment is really a state’s rights or federalist sentiment because at its root is the premise that the federal government shouldn’t tell people what to do about abortion. That is the national issue, after all, it coming down to the illicit 1973 SCOTUS decision of Roe v Wade.
In this case, if misunderstood, even I could be called pro-abortion because I say the federal government should not be making law about abortion and that is why I am for the repeal of Roe v Wade. However, I am for the state’s having the right to decide to outlaw abortion if its voters so desire. Personally, I am against any and all abortions and would fight to impress the majority to back my position, but I do realize there is a certain rule of the majority that a democracy has to respect. So, the question is quite a bit more involved than the RMC wants to pretend. The RMC simplistically misuses its poll to support its disingenuous supposition of being in the majority.
And, in fact, the poll that the RMC commissioned is on its face wrong in its conclusions. As lifenews.com shows, the majority of voters that declare themselves to be Republican do not support the RMC’s position.
But that’s far from what actual Republican voters said when they participated in exit polls following the Republican presidential primaries earlier this year.
More than three-fourths of all Republicans in Missouri (74-23 percent), Tennessee (75-22), Alabama (76-20), Oklahoma (76-22) and Arkansas (81-18) say they want all or most abortions illegal and take a pro-life position.
But a majority of Republicans in other states are also pro-life.
Some 64 percent of Republicans in Illinois said they want all or most abortions illegal while just 33 percent want all or most to remain legal. Golden State Republicans take a pro-life position by a 54 to 42 percentage point margin. And some 70 percent of Ohio Republicans take a pro-life position saying abortion should be illegal while just 28 percent support legalized abortion.
In Arizona, 58 percent of Republicans take a pro-life position compared to just 37 percent who don’t while Utah Republicans were even more strongly pro-life with a 85-13 percentage point split.
The only part of the country where a majority of Republicans are pro-abortion is the northeast, including (head of RMC, Jennifer Blei) Stockman’s home state of Connecticut.
The number of Republicans that favors outright abolition of abortion or closely regulated restrictions on it far out number the opposite making the claims of the RMC risible in retrospect.
Now, what is this piece all about you may wonder? Why give these disingenuous, Benedict Arnold’s the time of day? Well, understandably there has been a lot of talk about how we should revitalize and reorganize. To do this we have to take stock not of just the other side, but of ourselves. And this is a subversive group right in our midst that we must not simply dismiss. To do that will give them the room they need to define the debate. And, since they have the support of our enemies, we might find them in a position to speak for us before we are fully cognizant that they are out there speaking at all. We cannot let groups like this side swipe us. So, consider this posting an intelligence gathering dispatch, won’t you?
On the important issue of pro-life, we must reiterate our principles, elicit the views on this issue from candidates, and stand strong for the rights of the unborn to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We must not allow the debate to fall into trope, either. With the advent of the genetic sciences the issues of the sanctity of human life are ever more complicated and we cannot cede the debate to those that want to diminish that sanctity.
We must redouble our efforts to urge this debate upon the American people. In an age when we are increasingly able to manipulate the very basis of life at the cellular level we need to evaluate just what we “are.” Is human life to be a commodity that can be used, bought and sold on the open market? Or are we going to view our lives as something beyond our ability to so casually regard — or disregard as the case may be?
There are already groups out there advocating that humanity be allowed to mix its genome in whatever way it so pleases even to the extent of modifying man to sprout wings, or take on traits of animals through genetic manipulation (often called transhumanism). Science will quickly outpace the philosophical debate if we are not careful and we must not be left in the dust with outmoded or half thought out platforms or philosophies.
After all, it sounds “reasonable” to most uninformed voters that we should be able to use science in any way we can that would “make man better.” But we must take this time on the eve of scientific invention to define the ground rules of just what “making man better” means. We absolutely must invest in the vague idea of “helping man improve” a belief in the notion that man is special in his natural state. We must promulgate the ideal that we cannot make our genes, organs or our very lives something that can be bought and sold on the open market and that to do so not only diminishes human life in general, but will create a category of people that must, in the end, be categorized as subhuman or less than desirable merely because of a lack of momentarily accepted manipulation. We must convince our fellows that such manipulation must result in a precarious social status for those so manipulated. Just as this year’s clothing fashions will be gone the next, imagine the capriciousness of faddish manipulations of the human genome? We can almost already see what harm such a continuous cycle of whimsical manipulation might wreck on society and the human being by comparing the current culture of plastic surgery to the possible ability to manipulate our very genome for cosmetic purposes.
Can we long endure as a race if some are manipulated to be “better” than others? Can we stay a meritorious society based on freedom and a mobile, classless society if some have been favored with the “in” genetic alterations while others don’t or cannot afford to indulge their inner transhumanist? And what is to become of what might easily be viewed as the lowly “natural” human that isn’t manipulated at all? Second class status… even slavery?
And how are lives to be treated if we can mix and match body parts by bidding for them on ebay? We are already seeing how cheap life can be for the “wrong” type of people, yet how lucrative can be their organs by the black market trade in transplantable organs from China! Without a proper philosophical debate on the sanctity of life, this can only get worse as time goes on.
In any case, this is a debate that we must have, not just as Republicans but as a human species, and I take the occasion of pointing out the apostasy of the Republican Majority for Choice as my opportunity to continue that debate.
Steve Maley
Neil Stevens
Daniel Horowitz
I take offense with your disparaging of Colorado Republicans.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:13AM EST (link)Hank Brown does not represent Colorado Republicans. In reality, we carried the water for the GOP in the last election cycle. Coloradans were Number 1 in the nation in number of doors knocked and fifth in calls made during the last election cycle. This is actual numbers, not percentages.
Not only do we support the GOP with our rhetoric, but with our actions as well. That is hardly quixotic. Oh, and regarding abortion, Colorado’s current laws gain us a D+ rating from NARAL. I fail to see how that qualifies us as impulsive or rashly unpredictable, especially with regards to limitations on abortion.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Well, maybe you're Quixotic because
mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:16AM EST (link)you’re so much better than the National Party?
and Cervantes book was great! - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:22AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
And
Warner Todd Huston (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:24AM EST (link)Well Don Quixotic was OK, but my hero was Sancho Pizza.
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thin crust or pan? - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:25AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I AM from Chicago...
Warner Todd Huston (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:27AM EST (link)… so it’s gotta be deep dish.
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Easy killer
Warner Todd Huston (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:22AM EST (link)I said the state was quixotic, not that all Colorado Republicans are. Or are you going to try and deny that you have a WHOLE bunch of “progressive” tendencies in your state?
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That's an extreme oversimplification of the political dynamics here...nt.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:29AM EST (link)The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Can you note a state or two that doesn't have
mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:30AM EST (link)“progressive tendencies”. Not arguing your point about CO, just a general point of reference.
amen 'Becker, we are all slouching towards Gomorrah-nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:34AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
slouching towards Gomorrah...
mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:56AM EST (link)Looks to me more like we’re running towards it.
absolutely - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 12:02PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Tennessee
Warner Todd Huston (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:35AM EST (link)Tennessee is quite LOW of “progressivism.”
But, still, it’s a pretty solid thing to say that Colorado is loaded with it for ostensibly being a rather red state. Don’t you think? Look at the recent mess over the anti-union Amendments, look at Denver, look at the fact that Media Matters has its OWN branch there. I could go on…
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You could, but it's clear you don't understand the dynamic here.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:42AM EST (link)Primarily that the left threw a ton of money and resources into Colorado during that last cycle because they saw us as vulnerable. They were right, of course as can be seen by 2 (D) Senators and 5 of 7 (D) House Reps.
What you don’t mention here is that much of the money and resources left right after the election because it wasn’t sustainable.
The past two years of political activity simply isn’t indicative of the political climate here. The left thinks they own the place now, but they have no idea about the level of grassroots free-market, small-government activity that’s going on at this time. Neglecting to recognize it will be their downfall here. That, and the failure to recognize that we have many young conservatives here that are ripe for the State and National limelight at just the right time.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Well...
Warner Todd Huston (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:47AM EST (link)The fact that you come to a debate on abortion and the sanctity of life and the ONLY thing you want to blather about is Colorado’s relative quixoticness… well, THAT seem pretty quixotic to me. Also off topic and uninteresting.
If you want to plead the case for your red turning blue state as if it is a bastion of conservatism… try making your own diary about it.
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It's already in the works.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:52AM EST (link)We don’t accept off-handed insults from the left, I don’t know why I should either.
But, as you say, it’s your diary.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
I though CO was attracting a lot of CA immigrants
JSobieski (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 11:00AM EST (link)which has resulted in CO being much more of a swing state?
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Yes, it has for many years.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 11:06AM EST (link)I moved here from California in 2/2000. Not everyone that has moved here from CA is a liberal. It’s also not what makes it a swing state, but in deference to WTH’s request, I’ll take that discussion elsewhere, possibly in a new diary.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Not to mention lots and lots of illegals
zuiko (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 1:41PM EST (link)Who I am sure are being trained by ACORN to vote for the “right” guy come election day.
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. – Milton Friedman
We had that problem in 2004.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 2:26PM EST (link)They were being closely watched in 2006, due in large part to having a Republican SoS. Mike Coffman is in the House now, and was replaced by a Bill Ritter nominee, so we’ll have to see if that changes.
A bill to require ID for voting was just defeated by democrats, who are quite worried that they’ll soon lose their majority and simply don’t trust the electorate to know what’s best for them at the voting booth.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Sorry, make that 2006 and 2008, respectively.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 2:27PM EST (link)I lost a couple of years there somewhere, or I’m still in denial…
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Fair and clean elections are the enemy of every Democrat (nt)
zuiko (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 2:52PM EST (link)Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. – Milton Friedman
But you must admit NT that some Colo repubs
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:28AM EST (link)nocturnally twist
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
No more so than many other places.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:46AM EST (link)There’s an incredibly strong base of free-market, small-government supporting types that simply need to be focused. You’ll see that happening over the course of the next couple of years.
If anything, Colorado Republicans have already to a great extent discarded the “we must be moderate to be effective” meme. That can actually be seen in our selection of Obama during this Presidential cycle (only the second time in the last 44 years that CO has selected a Democrat).
Good things are happening here, and we’re already moving in the right direction. That’s more than can be said for some other states.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
I hear you - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 12:02PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Abortion is certainly a game stopper for me.
Praying (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:23AM EST (link)I do make a point of voting for or against a candidate based on his/her position on abortion. That said, while I agree that we need to be conscious about the need to rebuild the Republican party in the US, I have come to the conclusion that the one main unifying platform that everyone in the party OUGHT to be able to rally behind – the defining trade mark of the Republican party – needs to be FISCAL CONSERVATISM. So how do we appeal to the vast array of positions on social issues? With financial policy. Lower taxes. Smaller government. I agree that the abortion question should not even be a federal government issue. And I certainly believe that no federal funds should be spend to support abortion. In this country, or abroad. Good Lord, the population of most European countries is also on the decline – led by Russia, where (according to Mark Steyn’s book America Alone), 70% of pregnancies are terminated. In fact, the only part of the world where the population actually has a fertility rate high enough to result in population growth is the Islamic countries. Which has implication of its own that I won’t even try to get into here – read the book. There is also the delicate social issue, as mentioned on these pages over the past few days, of the disproportionate number of abortions in the US being performed on Blacks. One could amost accuse the abortion industry, and the lefty socialist who support it, of promoting some sort of sick, misguided ethnic cleansing. Which is an absolutely rehensible thought.
Bottom line is, I think that by making the mantra of the party financial above all else, the tent can be big enough to encompass a vast majority of Americans. We’ll never earn the respect of the 22% of die hard liberal socialists, so there is no point in trying. And I think there needs to be two strong party identifications from which to choose. We haven’t really had that – we’ve had democrat, and democrat-lite. I think that after two years of Obamamania defecit spending, this message will hit home with a LOT more people. There is no good reason to bankrupt the next two or three generations of Americans by even considering the passage of the democrat pork barrel spending bill.
Which brings me to my fianl point. The entire (334 or so page) bill can be found at readthestimulus.org. I know that buried within that bill are a whole host of liberal agenda items. Like funding for the endowment for the arts, and funding to make contraceptives more available. And I have heard, but have not had the time to wade through the weeds to actually find this, that major components of the dreaded FOCA (the mis-named freedom of choice act) are buried within that bill. The democrats are panicing about getting the bill signed as quickly as possible, because the longer it sits out there, the more time we the people will have to actually read the thing, and find all the little liberal treats that Nancy Pelosi (I’m not going to blame all the democrats for this – remember, the entire bill was written in HER office) stuck in there. I think the thing that bothers me the most is that the liberals think the rest of us are just idiots. The tell us we are idiots, and too many of us nod our heads and slink away and don’t fight back. Well, it is time to fight. For ourselves, for our nation, for our future. We have got to light a fire under our respective elected senators and representatives, and we have got to follow through with getting rid of the ones who are not loyal to the conservative cause.
No!!!11!1!!1!1! The Bilderbergers are coming
Apologies for the length!
Praying (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:24AM EST (link)I had no idea! I need to start writing diaries, not comments.
No!!!11!1!!1!1! The Bilderbergers are coming
we are praying that you will! smile-nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:32AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I am not
Warner Todd Huston (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:25AM EST (link)I am not against your point, nor am I stating that the abortion issue should be the only one we tackle. I think we are adult enough and smart enough to handle more than one issue at a time.
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Progressive = Liberal
bobojake (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:30AM EST (link)Words just words. Focus group words. 30% of obama suporters didn’t even know who controlled the Senate and House or that or the names of their congressman or senator. Now we have Clinton using smart power. One day obama and clinton will eat their words just words. The words that mean the most God Bless the United States of America. Thank You Serviceman for keeping us safe.
do you have a point that's germaine to the post...
randy streu (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 12:04PM EST (link)or are we supposed to be so awed by your (words just words) that we don’t notice that it’s completely random and off-topic.
Write a blog if you want to spout platitudes. Just not, you know, here.
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I don't care what way you look at it
Mark Reiboldt (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:40AM EST (link)The phrase “pro-abortion Republican group” is an oxymoron, and shouldn’t exist. There is no such thing. If you disagree, then become a Democrat, because the GOP doesn’t want you.
Hold it right there, Mark Reiboldt.
Moe Lane (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:48AM EST (link)Not everybody has abortion as their primary issue. For example, I don’t. So don’t presume to speak for the entire GOP on this matter.
That being said, the RMC fails the basic rule of Big Tents: when they lose the internal debate, they pack their bags and go home. So to heck with them.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
Roe v Wade
AnnaD Saturday, January 24th at 1:58PM EST (link)While I like that Roe v Wade explained the concepts of fetal pre-viability and post-viability (albeit in cruder terms, e.g., by trimester, a changing standard as medical care evolves), I would love to see Roe v Wade reversed and send the abortion question back to the states. Let the people of each state decide how to address abortion. If a state bans it all, Planned Parenthood and NARAL can provide the funding to a poor woman who must then travel to another state to get a legal abortion.
5!
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 7:35PM EST (link)exactly
and that is actually the moderate solution. it’s amazing that this is considered a conservative position rather than the sensible, moderate, and – for those who care – the constitutional solution.
There is nuance in this debate
AnnaD Saturday, January 24th at 1:54PM EST (link)I am a solid Republican voter but I would never presume to force a legal-age woman to have a baby she did not want, if she decided to have a pre-viability abortion. Does your rigid stance require that we chain her to a bed until she gives birth? I hope not. I think on abortion, the better way to go, as a party, is to say if a legal-age woman wants an abortion, that is her decision, but no government funding for it. After viability, no abortion unless there is a clear and serious medical risk in going to term. No abortions post-viability because she doesn’t feel like it or other frivolous reasons. If she is underage, parental notification or consent (with judicial intervention in the event of possible harm to the girl if her parents find out). If the woman can’t afford another baby, there is adoption. We do risk losing women like myself who see some degree of nuance in this debate.
not really.
randy streu (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 3:29PM EST (link)If you see nuance, then you don’t see preborn infants as human beings. Even if you could give a definition of pre-viability that doesn’t defy the scientific definition of life, it would be such a short period of time that, literally (and then, only MAYBE), the only legal abortion would be RU-486. I have serious doubts that that would satisfy pro-choice women.
By definition, a human fetus is both alive and human. Abortion is therefore the destruction of human life — by definition. You can come up with as many excuses for it as you wish, and as many names, but it comes down to the singular question of, is it okay to extinguish what is, by definition, an innocent human life? And, as a caveat, if we find that such a killing (let’s call it what it is, shall we?) IS okay, where do you draw the line of when it no longer is?
I’m sorry if my hardline stance offends, but I do not apologize for having it, or for voicing it. Somebody needs to stop letting the pro-choice group define this debate.
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definition is easy
lapert Saturday, January 24th at 5:34PM EST (link)It’s easy to give a definition of pre-viability that is broader than you suggest: A fetus tht could not survive on its own if not within the mother or connected to a machine. That doesn’t defy any scientific definition of anything – it may not be the definition I would use but there is not logical way to prove it wrong.
There is plenty of room for people to come to differnet understanding of the moral categorization of ‘preborn infants’ so by deifnition there is nuance.
I’m sorry if this viewpoint offends, but I do not apologize for voicing the reality that different people have different palusible opinions on this issue.
"could not survive on its own if not within the mother or connected to a machine."
randy streu (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 8:33PM EST (link)Doesn’t fly, for two reasons.
First, the fetus in question would still be ALIVE. Even if it couldn’t survive, it is still, in fact, a living being.
Second, if the argument for viability is that it can breathe without being connected to a machine, then under the same logic, everybody under so much as an O2 mask should be able to be euthanized with the scratch of a relative’s pen.
What I said is scientifically correct: A fetus — even on that requires its mother for survival — is, by definition, a living human being. moralizing doesn’t change that.
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but that isn't the definition
lapert Saturday, January 24th at 10:12PM EST (link)Who cares if it is alive – that wasn’t what we are defining. We are defining “pre-viability” which may require that the entity be alive it doesn’t imply that whenever it is alive it meets the definition. You see you re trying to assert that your definition is the only possible one when it is just semantics – anyone can assert a different definition and use that as thebasis for their own opinion.
As for your second ‘objection’, the definition specifcially said ‘fetus’ so it obviously excludes those who have passed that stage in development. Of course we could use wording like ‘has never, nor could not now survive on its own…’ which would also clearly exclude the case you describe. Of course there are some who would argue that the governmetn should allow those onmachines to be euthanized at will but that is a different discussion.
As for ‘scientifically correct’, well that is irrelevant. Science doesn’t define the legal or moral state of pre-viability and it isn’t within the mandate of science to be able to do so. You are simply trying an equivocation fallacy by asserting that the scientific characteristic of ‘living human being’ is equal to the moral characteristic ‘person’.
that's exactly my point.
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 8:08AM EST (link)As you can see, in this sort of argument, the one who makes the definitions controls the arguments. For too long, Conservatives have let the other side define the debate (on far too many issues) and I’m sick of it.
Who cares if it’s alive? I do, and so should you. By definition, this makes it a living human being. This makes abortion the killing of a living human being. and we need to make sure people see it that way.
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good article by jacoby on roe and doe
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 9:34AM EST (link)http://www.jeffjacoby.com/3035/roe-and-doe-36-years
sorry to interrupt, but i thought you might like it
but everyone makes their own
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 1:15PM EST (link)But everyone gets to make their own definitions – that is why the arguments always go passed each side. You can be sick of it but asserting your definition does not make it the definition being used by the other side of the argument.
My definition of the moral status of the fetus is rooted in the talmudic law of my religion and it contradicts your little definition there – so no, we don’t need to ‘make sure’ people see it that way. Maybe we need to make sure you see it my way… or more likely we accept that people will liekly never all see this the same way – thus, nuance.
The argument as a whole is defined by the left...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 1:19PM EST (link)and, like it or not, it is indeed my goal to get everybody to see these definitions in a certain way, because not allowing babies to be defined as masses of flesh or killing to be defined as mere “termination” is the best way to start changing peoples’ minds about this.
As long as people see it as “the termination of a pregnancy” rather than the death of a human being, they have no reason to change their beliefs.
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there can be a reasonable disagreement
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 1:36PM EST (link)the choice needn’t be only between calling it murder and calling a pre-born baby a mere clump of tissue.
one can believe that a so-called “fetus” is a human life that should not be taken without exceptional circumstances and yet not consider that human life exactly the same as the lives of born human beings.
doing so does not embrace the language of the left, but the languge of some esteemed traditions, such as jewish law and also british common law.
that is true, and as a persuasion technique, you're absolutely right...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:14PM EST (link)but let’s face it, persuasion never works on a mass level (or, I should say, RARELY). Persuasion is about one-on-one. And no, You may not want to use the (admittedly) heavy-handed approach of calling somebody a babykiller… but gently guiding them to that viewpoint through question and answer is usually my approach.
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quite reasonable
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:24PM EST (link)pleasure discussing all this with you
and you as well,
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:26PM EST (link)thank you.
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moving goalpost
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 1:41PM EST (link)How is that working for you? What reason are you giving them to change their beleif on the defenition that is any more convincing than changing their mind on abortion broadly?
Usually, people don't consider the definitions...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:11PM EST (link)they just accept them. Once you start introducing ideas that they aren’t hearing, actually, they can be pretty open-minded. I’m talking, here, of course, about MOST people — not the extremists. The extremists don’t care.
But most people only hear one side of the argument, and are left with the idea that people who are fully -against- abortion are only that way due to reasons of religion, and it therefore becomes a church/state issue.
It’s hard to do on a mass level, but one-on-one, getting people to begin seeing the other side actually works fairly well.
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can't say i agree with the "everyone makes his
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 1:51PM EST (link)own definitions” point
everyone tries to make them perhaps, but not everyone has a reasonable basis for the definition.
that said, i agree that there is broader scope for reasonable disagreement about the definition – but it doesn’t go nearly as far as pro-choicers would have us believe.
fair point
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 1:55PM EST (link)Itis certainly true that not everyone has a reasonable basis for their definition – my broader point though was that whether reasonable or not everyone can have their own belief on what a word being used means and to assert they are mistaken isn’t usually persuasive in getting them to change their viewpoint.
So if the goal is persuasion the heay handed tack of asserting the definition that everyone is using is probably a faliling one.
yeah, i understood that
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:01PM EST (link)and agree
i just couldn’t resist passing up a chance to nitpick and disagree. heh.
To randy streu and David123
AnnaD Saturday, January 24th at 6:33PM EST (link)So then you (randy) would chain a woman to a bed and force her to carry a baby to term? If that’s your position, and the position of the Republican party, then Republicans will never achieve a majority again. There are many women (like me) who do not support post-viability abortions (except to save the mother’s life) but who would not interfere with a woman’s pre-viability decision to abort. I like David 123′s post. I have always said that the terms pro-life and pro-choice are stupid labels because everyone is pro-life and pro-choice. My position has always been the terms should be pro-abortion or anti-abortion. Unfortunately, many women (and men) do find themselves in between the two labels. As David123 suggests, the Republican message should be “We are pro-choice but not pro-abortion” and then try to bring those people into the fold, and neutralize the issue. Liberals have been successful characterizing Republicans as the party of chaining the woman to the bed until she gives birth. Pro-choice could also include, get a pre-viability abortion if you want, but our tax dollars won’t pay for it. I don’t wish to have anyone here think I am pro-abortion; I am not. But I will never support the position that chains the woman to the bed until she gives birth, either.
i take your point, but i disagree on one statement
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 7:41PM EST (link)in particular – the idea that stopping abortion chains a woman to a bed in order to carry her baby to term.
if abortion were not permitted except in exceptional cases, no one would be chaining a woman to a bed, as you put it, except that woman herself.
apart from rape, etc., no woman is forced to get pregnant. women choose to take that risk. by so choosing, they should accept the possible consequences.
The Republican message should absolutely NOT be "we are pro-choice, but not pro-abortion"
randy streu (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 8:37PM EST (link)We don’t need to soften our message in order to bring about change — just be willing to make compromises when we have to, for the time being.
Would I be okay with chaining a woman to her bed and forcing her to carry to term? What a silly question. Absolutely not. Would I be okay with charging somebody with conspiracy or accessory to infanticide because she couldn’t keep her skirt down and didn’t want to be “punished with a baby”? You bet I would.
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How about "The Government should not promote abortion." and "The Federal government should neither prohibit abortion nor prevent any state from restricting abortion."
David123 (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 8:51PM EST (link)This might be a middle ground between your position and AnnaD’s position. Also, as a practical matter, I don’t think a federal prohibition will be possible within the next 20 years, if ever.
David123
and, one might add, even if the goal is prohibition
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 8:54PM EST (link)across the entire country, overturning roe and leaving the states to regulate abortion would not be a hindrance to the cause.
It works as a step in the right direction...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 11:46AM EST (link)But I think it sends the wrong message (specifically the “should” clauses” if it stands as part of the platform. When you compromise on the stance of the issue, it takes the “middle ground” further away.
In short, if Congress decided to pass such a law, then yes, I think we should get behind it, because it is, after all, a good step to take. But to hold stance there, especially when so many inside the party feel that it doesn’t go nearly far enough, just doesn’t cut it.
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the question is about the importance of federalism
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:15PM EST (link)and also about prudence
part of the question, anyway, if not all of the question
for most of american history, the regulation of abortion (and many other things) was not within the power of the national government but solely of the states.
returning the power to regulate abortion to the states is part of restoring our federalist system.
if we move instead to pass a constitutional amendment banning abortion (with or without exceptions), then we have not done anything to restore federalism.
remember that lincoln, facing the worst kind of crime against nature, did not seek a constitutional amendment banning slavery. he wished to prevent its expansion, and then see it die a natural death over an extended period of time. this was in keeping with his understanding of constitutional powers and also in keeping with prudence.
I'm not against bringing it to the states...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:22PM EST (link)if we have to compromise in that way. But it still allows the argument to be defined by the other side. Murder isn’t a state issue. It’s illegal everywhere. People want to make abortion on par with substance abuse or gay marriage — in other words, make it an issue of liberty.
It isn’t.
Again, if that’s the best we can do, well, it’s a start. But I absolutely do not believe the party should back off from calling abortion what it is, and I absolutely do not believe we should walk away from the fight to prohibit the slaughter of unborn children all across the nation.
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On that basis, your argument is sound
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:28PM EST (link)I disagree with how you view abortion, but your argument works if one considers abortion as murder.
In any case, I am glad that you are not opposed to bringing the issue back to the states.
Admittedly, it’s difficult to get voters excited about the “let’s restore federalism” platform, but it still remains a compromise solution that accords with the constitution and that might be accepted by the people at some point.
Good luck with your work. It’s going to be a long struggle.
Thank you, and it is. (nt)
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:50PM EST (link)nt
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Of course it is a state issue
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 1:52PM EST (link)Of course defining what is and is not murder is a state issue – always has been. And of course defining the legal status of abortion should be a state issue – but that is a completely different discussion than what the legal status should be.
And personally, if the party wants its platform to call for the outlawing of abortion in al states (as opposed to the passing of a federal ban which seems at odds to me with federalism, a far more far reaching philosophical underpinning of the party) than more power to it. I’ll disagree with that plank of the platform, but everyone (at least every independent thinking individual) I am sure disagrees with some part of the pary platform.
That, at least, we can agree on.
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:17PM EST (link)“but everyone (at least every independent thinking individual) I am sure disagrees with some part of the pary platform.”
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thanks, AnnaD. my position is not yours, but
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 3:42PM EST (link)it’s clear that the majority of americans want to see more restrictions on abortion than there are currently.
and if we are able to achieve some of those restrictions, those alone would save the lives of many, many unborn children and also
once we achieve the kinds of restrictions you suggest, and which i believe the majority of americans would approve of, THEN we can continue the debate and see whether americans will support even further restrictions (such as the ones i would like to see and you would not).
just because certain voters won’t go all the way to a ban or near-ban on abortions doesn’t mean we cannot make significant progress by traveling together part of the way.
thanks again for your thoughts.
5 x 5. Framing the issue 3 ways; pro-life, pro-choice, and pro-abortion will help
David123 (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 4:51PM EST (link)Pro-life: you believe abortion is wrong, and you favor, eventually, a nationwide ban on abortion except to save the life of the mother and possibly after a rape.
Pro-choice: you believe abortion itself is wrong, but you oppose a nationwide ban on abortion early in pregnancy. You would favor government policy that really would make abortion “safe, legal and rare”. You also might state, “I’d never get an abortion myself, but I wouldn’t pass a law forbidding someone else from getting one.”
Pro-abortion: you believe that abortion itself is good. You favor goverment policy that promotes abortion; you consider abortion to be a fundamental right as validated by the Roe decision.
Now, the key thing here is that defining the abortion issue this way you make pro-life and pro-choice people natural allies, at least in the short term – next 10 to 20 years. As abortion is prohibited in some states, abortion really becomes “safe, legal, and rare”. If we assume that abortion becomes illegal in some states, while remaining legal in others, women will not have abortions casually – traveling from South Dakota to New York for a safe, legal abortion is a big deal. By making abortion somewhat difficult, behavior that leads to unwanted pregnancies is discouraged and alternatives to abortion are more likely. But with abortion remaining legal in some states, there is no development of an illegal back-alley abortion industry.
Under this definition, I think there is a place for pro-life and pro-choice people in the Republican Party, but I do not think republicans should push pro-abortion policies.
This definition also flushes out the hyprocacy of so-called “pro-choice” [but really pro-abortion] zealots who hate Sarah Palin for actually exercising her own personal right to choose in a loving way that conformed to her own conscience. Anyone who is truly pro-choice would recognize Sarah Palin’s right to choose, and respect her choice.
David123
not at all a bad idea!
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 5:02PM EST (link)i like it
David123 is right
AnnaD Saturday, January 24th at 6:37PM EST (link)Take the issue away from liberals by aligning the pro-life and pro-choice people against the pro-abortion fringe. Imagine Nancy Pelosi or Barbara Boxer, or Barack Obama, for that matter, trying to explain how she/he isn’t a pro-abortion fringe person, based on their voting records?
Suggestions for pro-choice conservatives
David123 (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 7:10PM EST (link)1. Be respectful of all three legs of the stool
2. Be supportive or at least neutral on measures to discourage vice prohibit abortion
3. Don’t support measures that actually promote abortion
David123
just say you support the state's deciding
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 7:12PM EST (link)most conservatives agree with this, this should be our plank and no further, other than to promote adoption etc.
Molon Labe!
State's deciding this issue is fine with me
David123 (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 7:39PM EST (link)I can’t see cheering for the demise of the Mexico City policy as this one group is doing. I think this particular group is pro-abortion rather than just pro-choice.
David123
thing is the conversation is pretty
AKSteveB (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 11:16PM EST (link)much pointless if/until Roe is overturned. There is a LOT of posturing towards pro life because it is risk free except in the bluest of states. About the only clue we have about what people actually believe was the South Dakota vote last year. A red state voting down a restrictive abortion law 55-45. The only two things that will reduce abortion that are feasbile are 1) overturning Roe V. Wade 2) exposing more people to ultrasound. You aren’t going to revoke the sexual revolution, and abortion comes with that territory.
Hell is other people – Sartre
the South Dakota law is not a good test b/c
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 9:30AM EST (link)it didn’t have exceptions in it that even many pro-life supporters want.
i agree, doc holliday. i don't understand why
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 7:45PM EST (link)the official party position on abortion is a national ban.
i can see the rationale for a ban – as explained by men like father neuhaus – but i don’t see why it should be the entire party’s official stance. it goes farther than we need to at the national level. it should be: get rid of roe (and everything that goes with it) at the national level, and support pro-life measures at the state level.
right, we don't need to go against what we believe
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 7:51PM EST (link)we need to find enough that agree on basic tenets so we can win and improve things. purity is a waste of time and is never a winning strategy.
Molon Labe!
I'm pro choice but I see no reason
AKSteveB (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 11:18PM EST (link)the national party shouldn’t be pro life. It is likely that something close to half the population would define themselves as anti abortion. Why should they not be represented.
Hell is other people – Sartre
Why shouldn't it be? It is a moral issue or the greatest import
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 11:30PM EST (link)The GOP was formed on just such an issue, i.e. slavery. Moreover, we started winning great majorities when Reagan made us a pro life party and our 2006 and 2008 losses were in no way related to the issue.
Now, Fred Thompson did convince me that the best political strategy is federalism, but as a statement of principle, I support maintaining our moral stand, and, conveniently, younger voters are actually more pro life than baby boomers.
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“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
ditto n/t
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 11:41PM EST (link).
but what was the republican platform against slavery?
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 9:31AM EST (link)it was NOT the abolitionist position
Suggestions for prolife conservatives
David123 (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 7:23PM EST (link)1. Use the approach that abortion is simply wrong, but don’t call it murder. Michael Vick certainly did not commit murder or end human life, but what he did to dogs was wrong and it was correct to imprison him.
2. Ask pro-choice people if they actually believe that abortion is a good thing, or [more likely] do you and the prochoice person agree that abortion itself is a bad thing. Then your disagreement is merely on what is the best tactic to minimize the practice, and you’ve got an ally in opposing government programs that actually promote abortion.
3. Ask the question why a woman should have an absolute right to have a fetus come out of her body when she doesn’t have an absolute right to put marijuana into her body.
David123
No. Again, that's allowing others to define the argument.
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 11:51AM EST (link)Compromise is fine, but abortion IS murder, and, as was said up-thread, what’s so wrong with taking a principled stand.
The Pro-abortion crowd (if not the pro-choice crowd as defined by you above) wants to make this an issue of women’s liberty. It isn’t. It is an issue of life and death.
The Pro-aborts define the argument the way they do as a way of safeguarding against people having a change of heart. If by contrast, we want them to change their hearts, we need to -redefine- the argument.
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the "abortion is murder" argument drives away
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:20PM EST (link)even pro-lifers, such as myself.
i would like to see abortion banned state by state except in cases of rape or incest or a threat to the life of the mother, but i simply do not agree that abortion is murder.
i think it can be considered murder in certain circumstances, but as a general rule, no, it is not. it is tremendously harmful and wrong, but does not rise to the level of murder.
and many will be offended by such a statement.
I'm a stickler for truth.
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:24PM EST (link)I don’t care if it bothers people. It is the taking of an innocent human life.
Call it whatever you want, but that’s what it boils down to.
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Then you must believe that abortion is never right
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:35PM EST (link)under any circumstances. The unborn baby must have a right to life equal to the mother’s right to life, and even if the mother’s life is threatened, the unborn baby cannot be killed. Is that correct?
I’m not going to harangue you about this. I’m just curious how far you’re willing to go.
Life of the mother is a special circumstance...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:42PM EST (link)Carrying to term is one thing… but a requirement to actually give your life for that of another IS a violation of liberty. It’s a moral choice. Some mothers, if they believe the baby would survive the mother’s death, would choose to give it that chance…
On the other hand, if it’s the choice between one death or two deaths, it would be foolish to require that both die.
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I see the distinction you're making
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:54PM EST (link)Thanks
I've talked to doctors about this.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:57PM EST (link)Because it was a concern of mine was well. As it was explained to me, in a true life-or-death emergency, the doctors do everything they can do save the patient, and sometimes while doing that the baby does not survive.
It’s not an issue of performing an abortion to save the mother’s life, rather it’s simply doing what doctors do to save as many lives as they can in an emergency.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
That's closer to my understanding of the issue, as well...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 1:06PM EST (link)Thanks for the clarification, NT.
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Hadley Arkes
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:59PM EST (link)by the way, if you’re not already familiar with hadley arkes, i think you would like him very much. he was one of the intellectual forces behind the partial birth abortion ban, and he teaches political philosophy (at amherst where he is probably sole conservative).
http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Rights-Right-Choose-Hadley/dp/0521604788/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232906148&sr=8-1
awesome, I'll check him out.
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 1:04PM EST (link)Thanks.
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your truth not mine
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 2:31PM EST (link)You are a stickler for your assertion of what is true. I don’t care if it bothers people, it is not the taking of an innocent human life. Call it whatever you want but that’s what it boils down to.
Both your statement and mine are equally provable and both equally persuaisve to those whod disagree. You can assert it is murder all you want but, even when it is wrong and ought to be illegal, there is never a circumstance under which I see abortion as equal to murder. If that is the focus of the party’s political efforts on the issue it will drive people away – and right now the party can’t afford to drive any more people away.
If it is not an innocent human life...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:52PM EST (link)then what’s the point of being against abortion at all?
In any event, you’re entitled to whatever opinion you have…
I’m a Republican living in New York… I’m used to being the only one in the room that’s right.
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and yes, my final comment was unnecessarily snarky
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:53PM EST (link)but I think I’ve responded sufficiently to the “you’ll drive people away” argument a few times within this thread, and don’t have the patience to continue repeating myself, just because you’ve found other places going back in the conversation to disagree.
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more than murder are wrong
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 3:02PM EST (link)There are things that aren’t murder but are still wrong. Without saying they are equal as an example – even though animals are not human, and killing htem not muder, mistreatment of them is still wrong. Are the only things worth opposing those that rise to the level of murder?
And don’t worry about the snark – regardless of which state I have lived in and what topic we are talking about I’m too am quite used to being hte only one in the room who is right; at least temporarily until they all see the light…
the things worth opposing...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 3:12PM EST (link)no, you’re right: plenty of things are worth opposing. But if a human fetus is, indeed, a mere lump of flesh and not a living human, then -what- is the impetus for opposing abortion at all?
I look at two things that convince me: 1) a fetus is “alive” based on the scientific definition of what that word means. It may not be “viable” without the support of its mother, but by definition, it carries those qualities which define “life.” And, 2) it (he/she/) is, by definition, human. Human reproduction has never once, in the history of the species, resulted in a dog, or a cat, or a cabbage.
So, scientifically, a human fetus is a living human entity. I use “murder,” because it is the only other word we have which specifically refers to the destruction of such an entity without cause or justification (“‘cuz I want to” is not cause or justification, nor is “it was convenient” — just ask anyone on death row).
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more in between
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 3:18PM EST (link)I don’t agree that the only two possibilities are it is a ‘living human entity’ on par with us or that it is a ‘mere lump of flesh’. And everytime you pose the argument in just those terms you guarantee that you will lose the opurtunity to persuade people of the desired ends for the sake of keeping the definition.
Maybe/maybe not...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 3:20PM EST (link)but I have yet to hear a reasonable argument as to what makes them any different.
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maybe your reasonable is unreasonable
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 3:26PM EST (link)Mayne that is because you won’t consider anything reasonable if the argument doesn’t lead to the same endpoint. How about this argument: my morality is derived from my religious tradition and legal interpretation that originates with the bible and flows through the talmud and later halachik authorities. Under that tradition the definition of a ‘person’ does not include the fetus. My conservative instincts tell me not to dump the definition simply because it fits with the modern pro-life movement when the authorities of the past saw no reason to dump it even though it disagreed with other definitions in the societies in which they lived.
Is that unreasonable? Do the specifics of the religious tradition leading to that definition even matter at that point?
If it's not a "person," what is it?
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 3:38PM EST (link)and, further, if my understanding of Scripture carries no weight in the argument (and as history shows, it does not), why should yours?
What is it that establishes personhood? Merely being born? What, its head pops out and it’s magically sentient? No, I don’t see that as reasonable. Not at all. Not without some basis for such a belief. I don’t care what your religious interpretations are (just as the pro-abort crowd doesn’t care about mine).
My argument is that -scientifically- a human fetus meets the defining standard for life, and is, at least, human. Is there a standard under which those statements are untrue? A standard that doesn’t come out of interpreted religious texts?
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another conept altogether
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 3:53PM EST (link)How about instead of person it is a fetus – a different category with different rules. Your undersanding of scripture can carry as much weight as you want – as does mine. I am not asking you to accept jewish morality as your own, just to recognize that there are alternaitve mroal judgements to your own that are reasonable.
Since I see nothing sepcial about the scientific view of life or humanity reducible to the same basis of all other creatures to the point that, scientifically, we all evolved from a common ancestor. What makes people special, and worthy of a distinct moral category, is not derived from the scientific definition of life – it is derived from a religious (small ‘r’) view of humanity. The basis for the aprticualr viewpoint that I adhere to is the observation (based on gods words and the interpretation of those words by those he has bestowed with the lineal authority for said interpration) is identifying the moment when the non-physical entity takes its place in the physical vessel that is the body – and that is at birth.
So no, merely being born doesn’t bestow personhood, but recieving the nefesh (soul is the accepted translation but as with all translations it is limited) in the body which happens to occur at birth.
Now you probably still don’t care about my religious interpretations any more than I care about yours -but if you insist that your alone must be the political position of the republican party you are doing no favors to teh goal of regaining political power.
*bangs head against wall*
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 3:58PM EST (link)“Now you probably still don’t care about my religious interpretations any more than I care about yours -but if you insist that your alone must be the political position of the republican party you are doing no favors to teh goal of regaining political power.”
Where did you read that? The only mention I have made, in this entire conversation, about my personal religious views, has been the acknowledgment that they don’t mean anything in the course of the national debate.
I’m not asking that GOP to take my religious position as their political position. I’m asking that they do as those on the other side of this debate have INSISTED that THEY are doing, and use science. And SCIENCE says a fetus is a living human being.
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postscript: the all-caps lettering isn't shouting... I just have a crappy memory when it comes to html
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:00PM EST (link)and can’t take the time to figure out how to bold or italicize.
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but science also says humans are no different
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 4:03PM EST (link)Science also says humans are no different from the rest of nature. You can’t win that argument with those who start form the premise that science is all there is and it forms the basis of moral and legal pronouncements.
I also don’t often hear from pro-choice advocates that science is the basis for their viewpoint, they (as I believe you mentioned above) make it about the liberty of the woman – which already assumes that the liberty of the fetus is subservient to the liberty of the woman. Where do they lay out the argument that this is rooted in science as opposed to their own ethics?
It's an assumption inherent in the liberty argument...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:10PM EST (link)that’s number one. Two, when pro-aborts tell prolifers NOT to use religion as a basis for argument, they are asking for reasoned, scientific response. Sometimes, they even ask for that directly.
Can I cite a source? No. This comes out of many, many conversations on this topic, based on what has been asked of me.
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not science but philosophy
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 4:16PM EST (link)Anyone who asks you for a scientific response should be asked to provide one explaining why it is wrong to kill them. Ethics is a branch of philosophy, not science, and ethics cannot be derived from science alone without philosophical or religious assumption underlying it.
Of course the right public policy can be distinct from the ethical or moral position – but that is a discussion which is at best fluffy social science, more honestly though it is just another philosophical conversation.
Philosophy can come into it...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:24PM EST (link)but first we define our terms.
For example, a fetus is scientifically a living human — why is it RIGHT to kill one?
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we define the terms within philosophy
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 4:29PM EST (link)Yes, we agree on defined terms to start a debate – but you immediately use an equivocation fallacy. If I said, a fetus is morally not a living human, why is it wrong to kill one? Are we going to have a productive discussion?
Since I don’t agree with your underlying definition, we never have a chance for a disucssion that put our actual viewpoints on the table and allows any option to find false conclusions, persuade on the underlying assumptions or even shared conclusions. Instead of begging the question on the definition we should start by recognizing whether we agree or disagree on the nature of the fetus (or, yet to be defined entity)
discussion continued down-thread.
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:50PM EST (link)n/t
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But let's talk philosophy... or more accurately, consequence.
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:48PM EST (link)Let’s say that my philosophy wins out and abortion is outlawed. At best, I’m right, and millions of human lives are saved. At worst, I’m wrong. As a consequence, many women are told that pregnancy is a natural consequence of sex, and that they will have to carry their fetuses around for nine months (with all the trouble and pain involved) until it becomes a “person.”
Now, let’s say abortion is legal, and as it turns out, you were right. Women are saved the inconvenience and potential pain and soreness associated with carrying a baby to term. But let’s say you’re wrong. Millions of human persons are slaughtered painfully.
That’s what it comes down to for me.
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A play on pascal
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 8:14PM EST (link)That’s a play on pacals wager- I’ve also seen it used by those opposed to the death penalty, war and vegetarians.
I have several objections to it here. The first depends on how far we take the ban of abortion – if it does not include an exception at least for the health of the mother than the negative side all of sudden becomes you could force a woman to take a significant ris to life for the sake of the mere fetus. The second objection is more fundamental on what is the root basis of pwoer for the govnerment to enforce law upon the people – for me the government is not empowered to decide that moral wager for me anymore than it would be to use pascals original formulation to decide that as a precaution for their afterlife all newborns most be baptized.
Life of the mother... not "health"
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 8:34PM EST (link)… which is a point I already responded to upthread (not to you, but I don’t feel like repeating it).
To the other… the fetus is only a “mere” fetus if YOU are right, and I am wrong. However, as was also discussed upthread, termination of pregnancy for the life of the mother is exceptionally rare (ALMOST nonexistent, in fact — and in most cases, it is more a product of tryig to save the mother’s life than it is a conscious decision on either the mother’s or doctor’s part). In any event, as I have already agreed earlier, it WOULD be wrong to demand a woman give up her own life.
Your second point, then… why not? In essence, you are risking the life of a human being for the sake of the convenience of another. You may be okay with that, and if so, then I can’t convince you otherwise. But the best reason for government to exist is to protect innocent life. And if I’m going to err here — and I believe that if government is gonig to err — it should err on the side of life.
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lapert, what about those near term abortions when the child is born alive?
janis (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 2:55PM EST (link)And then the child is left to die. You don’t see that as murder? If not, then what would you call it?
I'm not a doctor
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 3:11PM EST (link)I’m not familiar with specific medical procedures so I don’t want to misstep (and I would turn to an authority on both the medicine and jewish law for an actual pronouncement) – but as a general rule the fetus becomes a person (and thus killing it possibly murder) after it’s head has emerged from the womb or most of the body if it is breech.
"possibly murder"? We have all seen on the news
janis (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 3:27PM EST (link)the murder trials of people like Scott Peterson, who committed the crime of killing both his young wife, Lacey, and their unborn son, Conor. Conor’s head was nowhere near “out of the womb”, yet his young life being ended helped land his murdering father’s sorry self in prison for the rest of his life.
So where’s the distinction for you, lapert? The courts have moved closer to our position over the years than yours in murder trials. Perhaps the ability of doctors and parents to observe their unborn children sucking their thumbs, kicking, and watching their tiny hearts beating, made possible by new technology developed since Roe v Wade was passed, has changed the minds of many people as to the definition of a “life.” What will it take to change yours as well?
civil definition need not be mine
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 3:33PM EST (link)While some states have chosen to apply murder laws to fetuses (and I don’t know enough specifics of state to state to know the details but would hapilly research them if you narrow down the states) that doesn’t make them right. I am also sure that state to state ‘movement’ has not been uniform even in direction. I have seen ultrasounds (of my own child no less) and that doesn’t change my mind. It takes more than fancy new technology for me to overturn religious authority on my definition of morality. All the physical manifestation of life in the world shows me nothing about the existence of the ‘soul’ (for lack of a better word) that differentiates humanity from the rest of nature.
To answer your question, when jewish legal authorities, stayinng true to the lineage of jewish tradition, change the definition I will be obliged to follow.
Peterson was tried and convicted in California, not what you'd call a "hotbed of conservatism".
janis (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 3:42PM EST (link)Beyond that, if you’ve seen an ultrasound of your unborn child and still can’t call that a human life, then nothing will persuade you otherwise.
As to your statement about not being able to be convinced of the existence of a soul no matter what you see around you, then you are either wilfully blind or your perception is extraordinarily skewed.
if thats all you got
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 3:57PM EST (link)Well, if all you are counting on is people seeing an ultrasound and changing their minds I don’t see much hope in changing the distribution of opinions in this country enough to change policy. I have seen ultrasounds of pigs, and living ones to boot, and I don’t see anything in that the shows me a soul in them. Physical movements of a fetus do not demonstrate the existence of a soul – in fact the reduction of what it means to be a person to its physical charateristics embodied in the fetus seems more demeaning to the special nature of a soul than anything else. If we are not more than just that physical being than why not just use the morality applied by the rest of nature?
Because that "fetus" has a soul in my opinion.
janis (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:10PM EST (link)I am a mother and a grandmother. To feel the kick and movements of your baby in your womb, to pay attention to what the rhythms of your unborn child are over the day and the night, to open your heart to the silent communication between mother and child and to finally open your arms to the lovely presence of that same child, born, is more “truth” than any doctrine, no matter who issues it.
As a grandmother, I have witnessed the birth of my grandbabies and saw the manifestation of their personality as soon as they emerged from the birth canal. My granddaughter, a fiercely independent little 4 year old, was slightly blue right after birth, so the nurse placed an oxygen mask over her little face. And my granddaughter reached up and wrapped her little hand around the mask and held it in place. To this day, she “wants a hand” in everything concerning her, and much that concerns her little brother as well. You will never convince me that that is something she only got by emerging from the birth canal.
Leave pig ultrasounds out of this. We are speaking of humans, not other animals. Those animals allow nature to determine whether or not their offspring will be born. Humans are the only animals that deliberately destroy their progeny before birth.
and not in mine
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 4:21PM EST (link)And with all respect to your opinion, it is not in mine. And my opinion is not capricious or based on a desire to ease my lie, it is based on a long standing religious tradition. I am sure your feelings and perception of your children and grandchildren are purely genuine, but one bedrock conservative principal is to respect the lessons of tradition over the much smaller (in scope) experiences of our own life.
Well if we respect the lessons of tradition, then what tradition
janis (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:25PM EST (link)are we respecting by aborting over a million babies a year just in the U.S.? One that became legalized in 1973? Some tradition.
different discussions
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 4:33PM EST (link)The moral nature of abortion and the question of what the law should be in the U.S. are differnet disucssions. The answer to your question is the tradition of our constitutional legal system – the argument will then turn on whether Roe was true to that tradition or not and if not what is the right way within that consitutional legal tradition to turn it back (what weight do we give stare decisis etc.).
But I am very comfortable saying that the legal determination in our system should happen at the state level and not at the federal level.
lapert
AKSteveB (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 8:01PM EST (link)I’m not a halachic authority (or even particularly observant anymroe), but as I best understand it, the halacha is closer to the pro life position than the pro choice one. The one thing that is definitive is that there HAS to be an exception for the health of the mother and the definition of that is pretty wide. Abortion is definitely seen as evil though, and killing a fetus requires monetary compensation, though not at the level of murder. I also don’t see much relevance to American law.
Hell is other people – Sartre
none whatsoever
lapert Sunday, January 25th at 8:19PM EST (link)The relevance to american law is zero other than it forms the basis of many americans moral view of abortion which, as a government of the people, ought to be respected in the ultiamte rule of law as imposed by the government on all people.
Your summary is close enough for arguments sake, for me the important point is that the pure prolife=no abortion or pro-choice=unlimited abortion dichotomty doesn’t fit it – and why it came up here is because so many assert that if you aren’t fully in one camp you must be fully in the other rather than accept that this issue can and does have nuance.
Yep, there we agree
AKSteveB (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 9:31PM EST (link)I think the sum total is that we’ll never reach consensus on this, because even amongst us who likely share similar worldviews, there are wide variations on this issue because we don’t all have the same exact moral base. The best answer for moral issues is to leave control as local as possible, because that is where the most commonality is found.
Hell is other people – Sartre
David123 is wrong
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:08PM EST (link)There is no middle ground between believing in a god-given right to life and believing in abortion. I also disagree with your definition of all pro-life folks wanting a nationwide ban on abortion. I am pro-life and I do not believe a law needs to be written to ban abortion nationnwide. No law needs to be written for the inalienable right of life.
For me the practice of abortion is as immoral now as the practice of slavery was immoral then. I hope people can get right with God and sin no more with respect to abortion. I can not coerce them by getting a law passed any more than Lot could coerce the folks in Gommorrah to change their ways.
your "no middle ground" positions loses support
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:27PM EST (link)for the pro-life movement.
we can make partial progress now by working with moderate pro-choice supporters without compromising any principle and without reducing our chances of sucess at making further progress later.
let’s use the majority already in existence to restrict abortion as far as we can. then let’s work on building a majority for restricting abortion further.
Agreed...I think we need to ask ourselves if our purpose
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:47PM EST (link)is to be ideologically pure or to save lives.
Limiting abortions to the first trimester while allowing exceptions for threats to the health of the mother or rape is, to use a football term, “open”. A complete abolition has less chance than the proverbial “Hail Mary”.
I’d rather save some lives than none.
exactly. i would feel different if lowering our
icbm (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:52PM EST (link)sights temporarily meant giving up all other goals. but it doesn’t do any harm to further goals to try to achieve some limited success now.
If you allow an exception for "health" as opposed to "life"
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 12:58PM EST (link)of the mother it is a meaningless gesture. That will stop exactly zero abortions.
Yes, change my sentence to life...
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 1:02PM EST (link)I was thinking more in terms of risk than in certain outcomes, which no one knows in advance. You’re right, “threats” has that covered.
amen bro - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 9:11PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
You could say that about a lot of issues
zuiko (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 2:29PM EST (link)If you demand 100% compliance on every issue you’ll end up with a very tiny party with no elected representation.
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. – Milton Friedman
wait
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 3:43PM EST (link)zuiko, are you speaking in favor of moderation and prudence? after three years lurking here, i thought i’d never see it. (friendly joke)
Well you have to be somewhat pragmatic
zuiko (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 1:26PM EST (link)Especially when the opposition has (almost) complete control in DC. Now is not the time to be talking about shrinking the party. If the pro-choicers want to vote Republican, they should be welcomed. That doesn’t mean we have to change the party’s position on the issue.
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. – Milton Friedman
The arrogance of the Obama's rhetoric
1SGinTN (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 10:43AM EST (link)was pretty striking to me this morning as I read the article in the paper. For example; “I have no desire to continue this stale and fruitless debate.”
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
wow. i missed that. well, mr. obama, i don't, either,
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 5:04PM EST (link)but we’re going to have to continue having it. that’s what happens in a free country with representative government. there is open and continuous debate.
i tell ya, people are soon going to start missing the alleged arrogance of bush.
False Flag Operation?
Mike Gray Saturday, January 24th at 10:49AM EST (link)This group sounds like a false flag operation. Kind of like the American Hunters and Shooters Association, who claim they are pro-hunting and pro-gun but who also profess to want “common sense” regulations on hunting and guns. And, of course, if you trace the money and the people, you arrive back at the Brady Campaign.
These groups exist not because they actually have a certain belief. They exist to sabotage conservatives by rallying the moderates to the opposite side and making Republicans seem divided on the issue.
Groups like this are the worst form of propaganda in our nation.
Hunting down the RINOs at rinosafari.com
I agree...
randy streu (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 12:05PM EST (link)it’s not hard to form a group and call it whatever the heck you want to call it. These folks could all be extremist liberals, and really, we’d have no way of knowing.
It’s up to the intelligent among us to point these groups out. False Flag, indeed.
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Like it or not
zuiko (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 2:45PM EST (link)There are pro-choice Republicans. There are some very real Republicans listed here.
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. – Milton Friedman
Questions they should answer
AnnaD Saturday, January 24th at 1:29PM EST (link)I just sent that group the following questions. I look forward to their responses. I asked for detailed responses.
(1) Aborting a post-viability fetus (late term abortion) because the mother experiences a serious medical risk (e.g., toxemia).
(2) Aborting a post-viability fetus (late term abortion) because the mother doesn’t want the baby.
(3) Aborting a post-viability fetus (late term abortion) because the mother didn’t know she was pregnant.
(4) Aborting a 13-year old girl’s pregnancy without parental notification/consent where there is NO underlying serious medical risk.
(5) Taking the aforementioned 13-year old across a state line to have an abortion without parental notification/consent.
(6) Blocking the provision of medical care to sustain the life of a viable fetus who survived a botched abortion.
(7) Throwing a live, viable fetus who survived a botched abortion into a medical waste bin to die.
Why This Black Catholic Is Not Voting For Obama
izoneguy (Diary) Saturday, January 24th at 9:07PM EST (link)The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
Geez!
Rod_Patrick (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 3:57PM EST (link)Abortion is the result of the liberal and “amoral” life of many Americans today. It’s now part of the culture of the Libs and sadly almost half of “MODERN” Americans.
I dunno but banning abortion is like banning all the libs/dems, which is unrealistic!
In the final analysis, it has become a personal “test” of conviction of a moral man. Sadly, many have already rejected morality and common sense to justify their actions and fruits of their actions.
My stand: Leave abortion alone (neither ban it nor legalize it).
To the libs/dems: You have already made a choice. So stop whining about it.
To the conservative like me: Never do something that will put us to the position of the Libs/Dems (i.e., making a choice whether to abort or not to abort). In short, make a commitment to your choice of NEVER RESORTING TO ABORTION. Such commitment should be both “EX-ANTE” and “EX-POST”.
To the fetuses who were victims of abortion: Sorry but you are just too smal to protect and defend yourselves. I just hope that God really exists to give justice that you all deserve during the Judgment Day.
In short
Rod_Patrick (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:03PM EST (link)All these technicalities are just being used by the libs/dems as a facade to their “amoral” life.
To abortion practioners: Are you happy and satisfied about it? Is it really worth it? Or is it haunting you? Don’t worry. Many of us pray for your souls.
See your point, Rod...
randy streu (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:05PM EST (link)but it isn’t in me to say, “Sorry but you are just too smal to protect and defend yourselves. I just hope that God really exists to give justice that you all deserve during the Judgment Day.”
My beliefs won’t let me do that. That’s like saying, “Sorry, Jews… you just don’t have enough of you to protect and defend yourselves. I just hope God punishes the nazis for inflicting all that pain and death and stuff.”
If it remains in our power — however remote the possibility — to fight the slaughter of innocent people, I believe we are honor-bound to do just that.
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Randy I also understand your point.
Rod_Patrick (Diary) Sunday, January 25th at 4:30PM EST (link)With my foolish assumption that a tree will never bear a different fruit (which, nowadays, not so very realistic), I should declare that:
1. I want all the libs/dems to abort their children so that they will never proliferate once and for all. Abortion suites my evil motive here.
2. I want all the conservatives to pro-create twice as many and fast as the libs/dems and illegal immigrants and liberal (European) immigrants and immigrants looking for welfare/fortune (coming from Central America and Asia). I am being selfish here.
But I’m just kidding. I just want to point out the irony here:
“The liberals hate the conservatives because the conservatives are trying to protect their interests.”
In an ideal world, all Americans should be one in banning Abortion. But the real world is not as simple as that because…libs/dems are INSANE.
Caution: Forcing the issue of abortion with libs/dems will also drive us crazy.