I really don’t understand the motivation of the regular Dems in Congress. HCR isn’t something that can be shoved under the carpet come November: a system this large will stay fresh in voters’ minds, and the fact that voters have to live with its costs, and without its benefits (such as they are) for ~3 years, I don’t see why so many Dems are willing to sacrifice their careers. In my experience, true believers are rare: are they that insulated? Have they been given an offer they can’t refuse? I’d like to know the impetus behind their actions, esp. now that it is clear that the bill is opposed by significant portions of the American public.

The problem is politicians. Any politician of any stripe will bend to accomodate the inevitable. And that includes Libertarians. How many Libertarians accept the incorporation doctrine that the supreme court created during the progressive era merely because it is currently most frequently used to expand (illigitimately from a conservative view) “individual rights” (ie flag burning or sodomy)

It is Swamp that is correct. There are too many armchair political experts on our side that have no clue what they are talking about. All this bs about letting Obama get what he wants so we can win when the public is really mad is just that, BS!

The reality is the public is quite maleable. This was shown when Bush was trashed endlessly to the point where only a few relatives and die hards still liked the guy. If you don’t teach a populace, if you brainwash them with endless lies, why wouldn’t the majority of them buy your crap? If people have no rudder, of course the winds can sway them.

I remember when people said the Clinton Gun BAN of 1994 helped us win seats. They were right, it did help us win seats. But was the ban rescinded? Now it wasn’t, it lasted the entire ten years, it devastated many firearms manufacturers and was almost reinstated by a REPUBLICAN president who said he would sign a new ban.

I am writing just to support Swamp, what I am saying is not adding much. But I want to show my support for the correct view that the time to fight is when the battle is joined. Anyone who thinks we should keep losing on the hope of some miracle comeback that may or may not happen is was too focused on process and not victory.

Anything can be reversed. And once one “entitlement program” has been revered, they entire ball of twine will probably begin to unravel back down to its Jeffersonian core. None of us want this Universal Health Care fiasco, but if it passes it might well turn out to be the boulder that broke the camels back. It could turn out to be Cloward and Piven with a vengence – as companies begin immediately dumping their workers onto the government – bringing the entire progressive/collectivist infrastructure crashing down around itself.

To throw Social Security into this argument is to introduce a red herring. they are not comparable, except in direction. As you said, SS and Medicare have public approval; this doesn’t.

No matter what happens, we should be going for a 3/4 majority (^;^) in the House in November and a majority in the Senate. Maybe won’t get it, but as unpopular as this whole process as been, why not go for it?

As Steyn says, every Republican should sign a pledge to repeal if it passes, and a pledge to keep it dead if it doesn’t.

Finally, I don’t know where the idea has cropped up that conservatives are saying “let ObamaCare pass so we can use it in November.” Who is saying that? Some might be saying “let it pass under the Slaughter rule,” but that’s an entirely different thing. That would be taken to the Supreme Court for appeal immediately as it is blatantly unconstitutional.

Maybe I missed that “let them pass it” memo.

The expenditures don’t kick in, partially, for 3 or 4 years and will be fully in place in 6 years. So it is safe to believe you think there will be Republican super majorities within 4 years. Not only super majorities, but Republican Leadership in both houses which is capable (and willing) to command the votes of all their members. I will grant that this is possible, but I sure wouldn’t consider it even close to sort of probable that any Republican Leadership could prevent members from “reaching across the aisle” (as we know the MSM would demand). Even with Bennet, McCain and Grahamnesty gone (if that happens), it isn’t a sure thing that no other Republican would want to show how “bipartisan” he was.

Meanwhile the taxes would be collected, and the only way to stop that would be to defund the IRS. While that might seem like a wonderful thing, it will never happen. Even to a Libertarian there are some (few) things the Constitution requires the government to perform.

Will the country “die” if this is passed. No. But this might well be the tipping point where more than 50% of the citizens pay no taxes, but are takers of other’s money and vote to continue taking. This Constitutional Republic can’t survive that demographic.