Remember this is only one vote to get one bill out of one committee. That is all. Snowe acknowledges that she still has reservations and that there are huge holes in the bill. Any shift to the left may change her vote on the floor.
Here are some realities to ponder. In 2008, Obama carried Maine by 18 points. In 2008, Susan Collins beat popular Congressman Tom Allen by 23 points. In 2006, when Republicans were crushed, Snowe retained her seat with 74% of the vote. Olympia Snowe, like Susan Collins, isn’t going anywhere. She is extremely popular.
Furthermore, the conservative and libertarian strains that do exist in Maine are very independent. It’s a stubbornly independent state, as reflected by their two Senators. Some of you may recall that Maine was the only state where Ross Perot finished second, besting George H.W. Bush. There is no great loyalty to the national GOP up there.
I support grass roots activism, but pure venom from outsiders has little effect on politicians like Snowe. Snowe didn’t run on a platform that she’d be to loyal to the GOP whip; on a platform that she’d follow Mitch McConnell; or on a platform that she’d listen to people in Texas. Does Tom Coburn care what Boston Republicans think about his actions? Would Jeff Sessions tremble if a bunch of Log Cabin Republicans from New York City with funny accents flooded his office with hateful calls.
The problem is that such venom can actually backfire. If Mainers see a bunch of people ganging up against one their own, they are more likely to rally around her. There are ways to engage in activism that isn’t silly, futile or counter-productive:
1. Snowe and her staffers will tune out venom if it is not coming from Mainers. Express outrage constructively, thoughtfully and passionately; but not with spite, hate or threats. When Southerners and Westerners attack Snowe and Collins, it reinforces negative stereotypes and sectionalism. Such tactics actually make it more difficult being a Republican up here. Many New Englanders feel that the GOP is a Southern party and that they have no place in it. Be respectful. It goes a long way in Old New England.
2. Try to use as many local outlets as you can. I compiled a list of phone numbers and emails during the cap and trade debate. Along with their offices, I used local radio hosts, newspapers and industry groups. For example, staffers may not care what a lobsterman from Massachusetts thinks about cap and trade, but they do care what the Maine Lobsterman Association has to say. I’ll bet Snowe and Collins listen to the MLA. Lobstermen will listen to each other, so I sent emails to various fishery groups and let them apply the pressure. I also got in touch with local radio hosts. If you know people from Maine, rally them. One call from a Mainer is worth ten thousand calls from Texans.
3. Use her. Let the hate dissipate for a moment. No one knows where she will stand when this bill comes out of conference committee or what’s going to happen next. But Snowe has tons of instant good will and credibility amongst independents, Democrats and the MSM. If we can turn her on the foor, it will be absolutely devastating. We can also use her good will against any attempt at reconciliation or any other chicanery. She put herself in position to control this whole thing. Stopping this monstrosity is more important than pursuing revenge. Alienating her now is stupid.
4. She’s marked her independence. She has shown her constituents that she is open minded and willing to work with Obama. She felt that she needed to do that. In the future, this vote may help her vote with the GOP. Now, she is free to rebuff Obama’s agenda without fear of being labeled a partisan or a lackey. That is a big key for her in that state. Her popularity is based on her independence. There was no way that she was going to vote with GOP all the time. If she sides with the Dems on enough procedural votes, it may free her up to side with the GOP when the vote actually matters. The House bill will have a public option and it will be more expensive. This Baucus Bill is not the final act. The final bill will be worse. There may be an opportunity to turn her yet and this vote may actually free her up to vote no.
5. Snowe isn’t even up for re-election until 2012 and she is practically unbeatable. Save your energy for defeating legislation in this cycle. That is the most important thing. After that, focus on a handful of Senate seats in 2010 that will give the GOP a healthy filibuster and then Snowe will be irrelevant. In the end, after all the huffing and puffing, that is the best hope for conservatives.
Steve Maley
Neil Stevens
Daniel Horowitz
Sure would be nice if the LEADERSHIP dealt with her instead of leaving it solely to the voters.
General_Confusion (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 3:27PM EST (link)It would be nice to see leadership make sure she was nowhere near any committee or anything even remotely important so as to limit the damage she loves in inflict on her party.
P.S. The “Let’s be nice to her” strategy by the leadership isn’t working out so well.
I see a lot of wisdom in what you say, Swamp.
penguin2 (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 3:35PM EST (link)You’ve laid out some good reasoning and it makes sense to me. The most important point is, yes it gets it out of committee, but it is not the final vote. Someone here today noted that Lieberman will vote no, thus canceling out the vote. If the bill ultimately passes, then we will have our wits about us to roll back as much of it as we can.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List
Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots
Snowe's own "litmus test"
A_Texan (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 3:43PM EST (link)Trie. Snowe has never run as a solid conservative. And we should not rush to use words like “traitor” or “compromiser” with reference to every GOP politician who does not vote as a conservative across the board.
But as I noted in my diary, Snowe expressly endorsed a “litmus test”: smaller government and lower taxes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/opinion/29snowe.html
She has failed her own litmus test, and should not, therefore, be renominated by the Maine GOP.
Barack Obama: The most inexperienced, far-left candidate the Democratic Party has ever dared to nominate to be our President.
I don't live in Maine; therefore, off to the democrat pasture with her...
DONTREADONME (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 4:10PM EST (link)so what part of Snowe makes her fit in the Republican party again, maybe she should try an I next to her name. Heh, in the end it will be less disappointing when she votes her views i.e. Democrat and BIG Government. Now off to the pasture with her.
BTW, I am allowed to spill venom from the outside...
DONTREADONME (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 4:12PM EST (link)because I USED to donate money to the NRSC, now I really won’t. I guess that means I should stop spitting venom from the outside. I will donate directly to the candidates form now on.
oh, and...
DONTREADONME (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 4:22PM EST (link)I figured this was the best place to vent on blue-bird Snowe. Yes, I needed to do that to protect my wife from the yelling, so you’re diary is my saving grace for the day.
excuses excuses...BTW...this is the second vote she's cast for it...
AceInTX (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 9:24PM EST (link)see my post from two weeks ago….
Snowe Votes For Federal Fines And Jail For Individual Citizens Who Refuse To Purchase Health Insurance
the point is...she could have vited against this in committee if she had real reservations
AceInTX (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 9:26PM EST (link)she’s playing games with our heads…and will to the Democrats line when the time comes…BTW…since she’s one of the most prominent members of the RMSP…I’m sure she’ll get a healthy chunk for the $50,000 SEIU ponied up to them last January
Looks like the Rathke boys just got their money’s worth!
or at least a down payment...nt
AceInTX (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 9:27PM EST (link)Maybe She Is Playing With Their Heads Too.
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 10:37PM EST (link)And maybe the way to use her is to play with hers. One thing is for sure, just whining on message boards and gnashing teeth accomplishes crap. Its more important to me to stop health care, cap and trade, amnesty and card check.
very high minded of you that...
AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 10:57AM EST (link)how you do that by being an apologist for Republicans who are helping to shape all of that…and pass it is beyond me…good luck with that!
Um, There Is No Election For Another Year
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 11:12AM EST (link)Its called dealing with the cards you are dealt. You complain a lot, but propose nothing. She isnt going anywhere and people from Maine are not going to take marching orders from southerners in the name of “the party”.
The irony is that you empower Olympia Snowe. Her popularity is based on her indpendence. Every time people like you attack her, it strengthens her resolve. And looks strong and independent and grows fonder in the hearts of her people. I’ve converted many yankees to the casue, but I’ve never won any hearts by callingsomeone a traitor, a commie or a douchebag. The vote is not done and her ears are open. I prefer to keep it that way and try to change her mind constructively.
think they are the internet equivelent of Patrick Henry, but there are nuts and bolts governance issues that are not sexy and she is well liked for her positions on local issues.
Maybe you should read this...Snowe's willing to support the public option if the insurance companies don't do her bidding
AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 12:05PM EST (link)Snowe: Health care bill a ‘good place to start’
Here’s the most dazzling example of her overwhelming brinlliance:
of course this is exactly the kind of middle of the road buffoonery that always get the democrats what they want because the Dems in Congress will do everything through regulation and taxation of the Insurance industry to make sure they don’t “perform” and the beauty of it will be…we’ll get the public option after things have died down…and there won’t be anyone to hold accountable for it’s coming into existence because no votes will be necessary to bring it about.
Oh…and Susan Collins is now signaling she’s ready to cave as well
So What Do You Propose
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 12:17PM EST (link)Again, there is no election until 2010. Snowe is up in 2012. Collins up in 2014.
You dont understant. I dont care about Snowe. I DONT CARE ABOUT SNOWE.
I care about building and winning. Seriously, who do you have in mind in Maine. Where is the bench? What’s the plan? How much time have you spent in Bangor.
Again, we are stuck with the cards we are dealt until the next election. And in the time health care, cap and trade, judges, amnesty and card check may all come up. I want ot scratch and claw for every vote to defeat these montrosities.
As an expereinced poltical activist, a New Englander, a former lobyyist for two fortune hundred companies and a lawyer, a bunch of non-constuents sitting around on some message board and calling Snowe and Collins names doesnt accomplish jack squat.
There is a game being played here. There are many parties. We dont know the end. Butt like I said I care too much about my country to sit back and just say let the Democrats have their bills and own it. I will still fight for every vote including Snowe’s and I’m pretty sure calling her a moron isnt going to win me anything.
I'm not proposing anything at this point...but I don't think it should be a crime to critisize when we're sold down the river
AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 8:42PM EST (link)You want to climb all over us when these two publicity pimps go off the reservation and decide they can dictate what’s good for Texans from their fiefdoms in Maine…I won’t apologize for criticizing them…and I won’t stop either…as long as they want to piss down my leg and tell me it’s raining…I’ll kick the piss right back in their faces…
and I don’t have a problem with you defending their bad behavior Swamp…my issue is your insistence on hammering us for whining when we vent at the continual betrayal of Snowe and her crowd of groupies!
As for you telling me you don’t care about Snowe…Again…I point you to your readiness to jump to her defense and make excuses when she does the wrong thing…
Here is where I am on this…if she needs to go off the reservation to protect her seat on small matters…I’m OK with that…I know we can’t get the whole pie all the time…but if we can’t hold the line with her and Collins and their ilk on issues like the bailout and HCR when the public is against it by a margin of 50% to 43% for it in a recent poll…then what good are they?
BTW…Collins was on Matthews pandering to his audience earlier today giving every indication she’s open to overtures from Obama and the Dems…so…here we are after being preached to since the 08 elections that 60 is the magic number and we have to tolerate the Snowes, Collins, Grahams, Specters, Jeffords, and Chaffees in our party and to on that list of crap weasels walk off and leave us with a face full of cow pies to bask in the sunlight that is Obama!
but what do I know…I’m just a whining purist who has no interest in winning anything!
New Maine Poll: 58% favor government health care, 38% oppose
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 10:39PM EST (link)Recommending calling Snowe’s office and being passionate and constructive, rallying Mainers, urging local talk radio hosts to pile on her, … that’s defending her? I dont even think you read things posts through.
But you can keep making her a hero in Deep BlueMaine. The great Olympia Snowe standing up to the party bosses”.
New Maine Poll: 58% favor government health care, 38% oppose. Chew on these numbers:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1009/Maine_polls_shows_support_for_Obama_plan_public_option.html
Do they?
Menlo (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 10:49PM EST (link)Most people nationwide want government health care; they change their minds when they find out they have to pay for it.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Correction - 46% in Maine
Menlo (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 11:17PM EST (link)The poll you linked to showed 58% approval of Obama. Asked about “his” health care plan, only 46 percent supported it.
Headlines can be misleading.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Oh, Oh, That Makes It "OK" Then (nt)
IJB Wednesday, October 14th at 11:19PM EST (link)The Poll I sited is a national poll...and I gurantee you the numbers against would be even higher in Texas
AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, October 15th at 2:01PM EST (link)We’re not talking about Maine We’re talking about the nation and her vote affects us all…
as for whether I read through all your posts…I’m pretty sure I have…I always try to read them through when I’m engaged in a discussion with someone to be fair to them first of all…but most importantly I’m always willing to be persuaded…and I can’t be if I don’t read your responses…must have missed the one where you listed those items and if you are doing that then fine…good for you…I make calls too…and I’ll be backing anyone who decided so run against the Maine twins when they’re up next…but until then…the only thing left to do is make sure to shine the light on them and make sure the people who read me know all there is to know about their double dealing.
Here’s another thing for you…and it’s one of my continuing themes. Why is it the Republican Part puts Snowe who is one of the most liberal on fiscal issues on the commerce committee…and why did they have Specter who is rabidly pro abortion on the judiciary committee…what I’m constantly driving at isn’t just about people like Snowe, Collins and the fact that they have to moderate their views and positions in order to win in their districts…but why do we have to put them on the very committees where they have the most control over areas where they most differ with the party!
Was this bill going to leave the committee without Snowe’s vote…yes…would her no vote have meant anything?…no…but in the end…by voting yes for this and laying out the lame and stupid excuses she’s made since the vote…she shows the contempt in which sh holds the majority of the Republican Party and the people it represents!
So Snowe's an idiot. I'll still trade the State of Maine
mbecker908 (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 10:43PM EST (link)McCain for Snowe straight up.
LOL...
AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, October 15th at 2:52PM EST (link)so…you’d trade a Pile of horse manure for a cow patty?
interesting…LOL
Correction: Perot Won *No* EC Votes
IJB Tuesday, October 13th at 9:29PM EST (link)It is true he came closest in Maine. But even there, he didn’t win an EC vote.
You're Right; He Beat Bush Though
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 10:33PM EST (link)Maine was the only state he finished second. That’s what I was thinking of.
Kick. Her. Out.
Tbone (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 10:18PM EST (link)of the caucus. Why do we bother with Republicans that aren’t? It makes no sense. It’s like playing football with one of the other team members playing on your side.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Maybe Someday
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Tuesday, October 13th at 11:03PM EST (link)But that battles we have to fight over the next year are too important. Everyone said the same thing about Susan Collins after the stimulus, but she i swit hus on health care. They are both with us on card check. We have to squeeze as much as we can out of them until their votes are irrelevant.
Disagree - If Either Votes for Public Option on The Floor...
IJB Wednesday, October 14th at 12:41AM EST (link)…They should be kicked out of the caucus. It’s as simple as that.
(I’d say the same would go for Cap ‘n’ Tax or Card Check.)
And if they aren’t kicked out of the caucus for any of these transgressions, then it will be time for the grassroots to *really* squeeze McConnell, the GOP Senate leadership, and the entire GOP Senate caucus.
What About Amnesty
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 1:15AM EST (link)Lets start with the stimulus: Specter, Collins, Snowe out
Guns: Luger Out
Judges: Alexander Out
Cap and Tax: McCain, Graham, Alexande Out
Amnesty: Coryn out
Its late. Im sure I’m missing more. There will always be a handful of defectors on just about all issues. The GOP isnt a on size fits all box. Kicking out one or two defectors after every vote is counter-productive. Such a tactic will lead to annihilation.
Certain Issues Qualify As 'Litmus' Tests
IJB Wednesday, October 14th at 9:17AM EST (link)Votes for Single Payer healthcare is definitely one of them.
Votes for massive middle class tax increases is another.
Votes against businesses and for unions in a massive way would be a third.
All of three of these are supposed to be fundamental differences between Republicans and Democrats – if a so-called GOP office holder can’t even hold the line on any of these three, they don’t deserve to be in the party.
The Republican Party is supposed to be defined by its economic message – anyone who strays massively far from that should not be in the party membership in Congress. Period.
I didn’t list Amnesty because there isn’t a consensus on it, at least in terms of GOP Senators (unfortunately).
But Somebody Else Could
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 9:28AM EST (link)The base is solidly against amnesty. I could add judges to that list. Anyone who voted for Sotomayor should be kicked out. For some conservatives, gun rights is paramount. For others, pro-life is paramount. If that’s the case we need to boot K.B. Hutchinson.
Its not for any one person to define the litmus test. Maine is a very Blue state now. Its a very weird state too. It’ll be a while before solid cosnervatives emerge and, understanding the art of persuasion, its better to have someone’s ear, than to completely cast them off. The twins will be with us on card check. And this vote was just procedural. She has never committed to voting for the bill. As a New Englander, I streongly urge passionate positive activism. Alientaing people oout of spite is petty.
I'm more tolerant on this than many;
Achance (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 9:39AM EST (link)I’ll do a lot to keep a caucus vote. What we need is strong caucus discipline that requires a member to vote with the caucus on ALL procedural and budget votes. Failure to do so would subject the member to discipline up to losing committee assignments or even expulsion from the caucus.
For the reasons you set out, members have to be free to vote their conscience or the will of their constituents on substantive votes. The problem the Rs have is that not only is there NO discipline, some of the most disloyal members of the caucus are cast or have cast themselves as the leaders of the Party in Congress and in the National spotlight, e.g., McShame, Gramnesty, et al.
In Vino Veritas
Except That This Was Not A Typical Procedural Vote
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 9:55AM EST (link)The effect was minimal, but the exposure was huge. Snowe’s popularity is based of her independence and her constituents dont want her to be a tool for the national GOP, which many feel does not represent them.
As I noted above, this vote may actually free her up to vote no on substantive votes. She has now demonstrated her independence and her diligence. She can bail on Obamacare and other initiatives and no one can call her a pawn. That’s what she seeks; that affirmation her independence of as a Mainer and the last of the Rockefeller’s.
People who challenge Snowe never really listen to her. She’s proud of the fact that she’s consistent. In her mind, she’s always been the same. Its the GOP thats changed and the more they push against her, the more it strengthens her resolve.
Which Is Why I Said Nothing About "Kicking Her Out" Now
IJB Wednesday, October 14th at 11:13AM EST (link)I’m willing to let a committee vote slide (though she was wrong even on this, and should be harshly criticized).
But if she votes for a ‘Public Option’ plan on the *floor*, she should be *out*. Period.
Baloney.
Tbone (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 11:14AM EST (link)I’m with Art on this. If the party has to be stuck with RINOs, put them in a broom closet and make them in charge of making the coffee.
Do not put them on any type of platform where they can speak for the Party or, God forbid, end up on the national ticket like the scumbag John McCain.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
She Already Has A Platform
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 11:27AM EST (link)She’s the sixtieth vote. If she wasnt getting attention for her committee vote, she would still get it for her floor vote.
Single payer is better than this thing
Menlo (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 2:15PM EST (link)As horrible as it would be, I’d take a single-payer model over any of the draconian measures proposed in Congress. At least then the members of Congress would have to use the same system, and they would lack any cover to say it isn’t socialized medicine. Let’s at least call the thing what it is and make it easy for everyone to understand rather than go to extraordinary lengths and use lots of taxpayer money just to cover up what is effectively the same thing.
To think that a “public option” makes one iota of difference here is delusional; the proposal lacking one is even worse than the others.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
you don't kick them out of the caucus...you take their committee seats and give it to loyal Republicans..nt
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, October 16th at 9:14AM EST (link)Collins is signalling she may be all in on it....I posted ther links above nt
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, October 16th at 9:12AM EST (link)I have no problem with Snowe
Change Jar Conservative (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 10:42AM EST (link)She’s from a very blue state so I’ll take what I can get.
#1) She is with the GOP on a host of fiscal issues and was very good as a vote with Bush on judges (for the most part).
#2) The only reason this is an issue is because of my fellow conservative senators who got bumped by poor fiscal discipline and too many years of Bush doing whatever he was doing. If there were 55 dems / 45 Repubs, we’d be saying “so what.” Don’t blame Snowe because all the conservatives lost.
#3) As swamp yankee notes, we don’t know where this is going. Yes, it would have good to kill it in a Senate committee, but there is still a ways to go.
********
Formerly know as “Oz” in these parts
Far from over
redpens (Diary) Wednesday, October 14th at 11:00PM EST (link)We have a long way to go yet. We can still kill Obama-Scare.