The recent debate over the Ground Zero Mosque, now innocuously called “Park51″ by the AP and other nitwits, has been instructive on several levels.
We’ve learned a great deal about the liberal mindset that thinks a Christmas creche on a courthouse lawn, or a cross on a desolate Mojave hilltop, is a grave affront to the “separation of church and state” yet the building of a mosque/islamic community center/target beacon on land made available for development by the 9/11 terror attacks is a testimony to our tolerance.
We’ve also learned a great deal more about America’s islamic community and what that seems to mean for America in the future.
Case in point: last week’s Washington Post and a story headlined “Hostility across U.S. jars Muslim college students.”
Although the Muslim students hadn’t eaten since dawn, something besides food was on their minds as they loaded plates with tandoori chicken, chickpeas and rice at American University to break their Ramadan fast.
For weeks, their faith had been under attack by some opponents of a proposed Islamic center near Ground Zero. Every time they turned on the TV, there were new reports of anti-Muslim sentiment: mosque construction being opposed hundreds of miles from Ground Zero; a Florida pastor vowing to burn copies of the Koran to mark the anniversary of Sept. 11; a poll showing that 43 percent of Americans hold unfavorable views of Muslims. And just this week, a Muslim cabbie was stabbed in New York.
All of it points to a swelling hostility that many of these students had scarcely known was there and that religious and political leaders worry could fuel alienation and radicalism among some young American Muslims.
The story details the whining of a bunch of rich, privileged muslim kids at American University about how bad things are for them in the United States. They’re attending a private university, a university that offers a special cafeteria offering for their religious observance and they don’t see the irony of bitching about “swelling hostility.”
But for the sake of argument, let’s color the principled opposition to the GZM in the worst possible light and stipulate for a couple of paragraphs that the opposition is rooted in religious bigotry.
So what?
The argument that this bigotry is somehow unusual is nothing more or less than a simple butchering of American history. This country has a long heritage of being less than welcoming to religious minorities. Bay Colony Puritans hanged Quakers. Dissenters were banished from Anglican colonies. Catholics were subjected to virtual pogroms in New York, Philadelphia and Boston in the 1840s and 1850s and the shameful legacy of anti-Catholicism is still evident in 37 states by way of the Blaine Amendments. Mormons. Jehovah Witnesses. Etc. So to say that being the object of religious hostility and bigotry makes muslims somehow unique is ridiculous.
But this isn’t about bigotry. This argument is really about monumental arrogance and a lack of sense of proportion that ultimately calls into question the degree to which any but the most secular muslims will ever be the part of the mainstream of American political culture.
The attacks perpetrated on the United States were the culmination of a long series of attacks upon Americans and American interests by a muslim enemy dating back to the late 1960s. Though Israel is often trotted out as the reason for these attacks that is little more than a smoke screen.
The attempt by the adherents of the GZM, both muslim and quislings, try to use a wave of the hand to make this history go away but the reason that the opposition is so deep is because we all remember the bombings and hijackings that preceded 9/11. So the inability of those pushing the GZM to admit that reasonable people could object to the GZM in light of our recent history with islam and islamists, or to even attempt to understand the objections, speaks much more about the attitude and motivation of the adherents than it does about the opposition.
The GZM is opposed by something approaching three-quarters of all Americans. We don’t know the underlying reason for that opposition but many surely see it as a calculated insult. As a tawdry in-your-face gesture designed to use our open society as a means of allowing the GZM backers and islamists to laugh in their sleeve at what they have accomplished. I say this is a calculated insult rather than a effort a “bridge building”, because any true effort at bridge building would have had some symbolic dimension like, for instance, an offer to rebuild St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church which was destroyed on 9/11 at Ground Zero as part of the redevelopment of the area.
This kind of behavior would have been an unremarkable though churlish behavior act were it not for the subtext being broadcast by the GZM supporters and the muslim community. From the Washington Post article:
“My brother came home one night really upset,” said Asma Mian, a 20-year-old junior from Potomac. He’d encountered a man on the Metro who was railing against the proposed community center and mosque in Lower Manhattan.
It rattled her to see her 17-year-old brother so emotional. “He barely gets involved in politics. He’s not extremely religious or anything,” she said, adding that people his age can be quick to take offense. They “feel like it’s more a personal attack. It’s more mortifying than it would be if you were older.”
That anger, youth leaders and terrorism experts warn, could push some young Muslims into the arms of such extremists as U.S.-born cleric Anwar al-Aulaqi, who has been linked to several terrorist plots. In his recruiting efforts, Aulaqi often portrays Islam as being under attack by the West.
The most vociferous mosque opponents “do not know what they are doing,” said Yahya Hendi, the Muslim chaplain at Georgetown University. “They are radicalizing people.”
We need to pause for a second to understand this fully.
We have a young muslim, whose family is established enough to live in Potomac, MD (median family income, $177,000) and front the AU tuition and expenses for at least one of his siblings, who is upset that someone voiced opposition to the GZM. He wasn’t beaten or threatened or in any way insulted. He either heard or was involved in a conversation in which one party was against the GZM. While we can write his outrage off to the Walter-Mittyism of a 17 year old, we are less able to rationalize the statements by people who should know better. When we are told that if the mosque is not built there will be more islamic radicals and when the muslim chaplain at Georgetown and other “leaders” warn that Americans exercising their rights as citizens could “radicalize” people this is not a cry for acceptance, this is narcissism on steroids.
Above I mentioned the difficulties many religious minorities have had in the United States. The one thing these minorities never did was resort to violence because they weren’t welcomed everywhere. Sometimes they set up parallel institutions. Without sacrificing their religious doctrines they strove for accommodation with their neighbors. More often than not by their daily actions and behavior they gave the lie to any accusation that they weren’t loyal Americans. They also realized that our politics is analogized to a bare-knuckle fight for a reason and they actively engaged in that arena.
One hesitates with generalities because rarely are they all encompassing, but with muslims in America we are seeing a much different behavior. The attitude we are seeing is one that demands acceptance rather than acknowledging that acceptance is earned in a free society. Indeed the demand goes beyond mere acceptance to an implied threat of violence if that acceptance is not granted.
Were that attitude limited to coddled 17-year-olds on the Metro then we could laugh it off. But the fact that influential people within that community see the threat — or want us to see the threat — as real speaks to a culture that is incapable of taking criticism. It also belies a culture that on the one hand assures us that most musims are not like those who carried out the 9/11 attacks (or those that funded them, or those who trained them, or those who gave them travel documents, or those who just thought America getting its comeuppance was grand) but in the next breath tells us that unless we cease criticism they will, indeed, become just like them. An assertion which, if it is to be believed, certainly calls the initial statement into question.
The question, therefore, concerning the GZM has nothing to do with religious bigotry. The question is what role can any group ever play in our free and often rancorous society if, by its own admission, it will resort to violence to avenge even perceived insult?
KnightsofMalta
Dan Spencer
Moe Lane
Steve Maley
Dan McLaughlin
Caleb Howe
To Tell Them They Cannot Have It Both Ways. . .
msctex (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 12:31PM EST (link). . .is to tell them they cannot be a Progressive. Their entire mindset is founded upon the notion of “having one’s cake and eating it too.” So it makes perfect sense for them to argue both against a Christmas tree on a courthouse and for the GZM, just as it makes sense to a Muslim to build the Mosque in New York yet not allow any churches or synagogues in their own nation.
Our priorities are based in freedom, fairness and diversity of experience, through individual opportunity. Progressive priorities lead to Equality of station, at any cost to everyone. And Muslims, of course, only priority is the promulgation of Islam, at the cost of death to the infidel per the Koran.
There is a reason the two groups easily mesh.
Well said streiff. nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 12:48PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
Late 1700s
Raven (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 12:51PM EST (link)That’s how long Muslim attacks on American interests have been occurring. Since our founding. We even paid “protection money” for a couple decades that did us no good.
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
you know, I've seen numerous reports today
Veronica (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 12:57PM EST (link)basically saying we’re stirring a hornet’s nest.
There’s Howard Dean saying we have to stop harrassing the Muslims, there’s the Taliban saying our opposition is helping them recruit more guys like that Time Square carbomber, and then there’s outrage throughout the rest of the world that is prompting embassies like the one in Jakarta to issue apologies on our behalf.
I think this is PROOF ENOUGH of what, exactly, is embodied, what is symbolized in building GZM.
Couple it with the example of that 17-yr-old — this is their identity, their faith, something they hold true to their core.
And they expect us to roll the hell over because we’re Americans who don’t believe in anything, anyway, with this “corrupt” freedom to do just about anything under the sun.
They expected a rebirth of Islam here because of our freedom of religion in this, the best nation in the world, that allows people to belong to themselves and choose their own faith — unlike the countries ruled by depostic regimes.
Nope. I’m not ready to give in.
To give in means certain death, anyway.
I’d rather die tryin and stick to my principles, than die by default via conquest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pray as if everything depends on God, and work as if everything depends on us. – St. Augustine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is there anything that doesn't help Taliban recruiting?
mdyou (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:16PM EST (link)Jeez, these people make me sick. Get on board with the religious freedom that our Constitution provides – or go the h*ll back where you came from.
An announcement that all bullets would first be marinated in pork
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:27PM EST (link)would not help Taliban recruiting. Why we are so afraid of using our adversary’s weaknesses against them is beyond me.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
you see SE Cupp's Op-ed in the DC, too? /nt
Veronica (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 2:15PM EST (link)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pray as if everything depends on God, and work as if everything depends on us. – St. Augustine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've been saying it for a while
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:25PM EST (link)using dogs and pigs to our advantange is something we should be doing.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
They don't want to use our enemies' weaknesses
davesinsanantonio (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 6:35AM EST (link)against them, because they don’t want to win. They want us and all of America to lose so they can rule without opposition the pieces that are left. Like the quislings they are, they expect our conquerors will let them stay in power. Pathetic little weasels, they know they cannot win on the battlefield of ideas, so they will tip the playing field so that we cannot win in the long run. We have to keep up the fight and not let them succeed at destroying this great country.
exactly on the Taliban
Veronica (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:30PM EST (link)so.. you either stand against it, or wilt and allow for your own demise.
People need to choose.
.. and you FREAK leftists and progressives, quit with the framing!!
We are not racists, bigots, or “lost souls” (stupid Dean).
Tell it to the Taliban who wants to kill you!!
I dare you to travel to Afghanistan and pass out a leaflet explaining our constitution.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pray as if everything depends on God, and work as if everything depends on us. – St. Augustine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
According to the left, no.
Flagstaff (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 1:51AM EST (link)If tolerance is used to allow intolerance to dominate, tolerance will die. We must be intolerant to intolerance.
A western understanding of religion is of a personal and voluntary belief in divine being(s). Constitutional tolerance for religious beliefs is clear cut, but the concept itself is murky because it’s related to a subjective ideal.
Islam doesn’t fall into this framework. It isn’t personal, it is dictatorial. It doesn’t allow for voluntary free will, because it doesn’t allow a former believer to leave the religion. It has a strategy of political conquest in order to achieve religious supremacy.
Something about its indoctrination in youth seems to make them susceptible to carrying out horrendous crimes against innocent bystanders when they are able, and now we’re told
“people [t]his age can be quick to take offense….
That anger, youth leaders and terrorism experts warn, could push some young Muslims into the arms of such extremists as U.S.-born cleric Anwar al-Aulaqi, who has been linked to several terrorist plots.”
So we are supposed to deny reality in an effort to not offend these hotheads? We’re allowing our enemies to dictate how we interact with them.
I’d like to know if the people profiled in the quoted article are Americans. If not, why are we allowing such people to attend university in the United States? Couldn’t their immigration slots be given to some of those hard-working Mexicans who only want to come here to make a better life for their families?
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
Well thought-out response
vandalii Tuesday, August 31st at 12:30PM EST (link)Flagstaff, thanks for helping us to look from outside in. We are so entrenched in our own thoughts that we don’t stop for a second to see what the “other moccasins” feel like.
Your point regarding difference in theological presuppositions hit it right on the head. While Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim roots within Abrahamic covenant, Islam has taken the tack that Allah has no particular message to his people except he is in charge, doesn’t have to be consistent, doesn’t have to provide definable guidance to salvation or provide grace himself as God does. Frankly after speaking with Muslim friends of mine, Allah can be a capricious as the greek gods were perported to be — he decides, he judges, you can’t pre-determine your course within any strictures Allah would hold himself.
As a result, Muslims have to be “all in” all the time. There is something to the reporters’ claims that these situations could be creating more radicals. Once one has no recourse to pursuing whatever (s)he thinks would please Allah, desparation sets in, radicalization is just over the horizon for the truly fearful and truly faithful.
Sad to see bright, intelligent, energetic, sensitive and nice people twisted into such horrible caricatures of humans by such hopelessness.
“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue.” – Winston Churchill
I think you got more out of that
Flagstaff (Diary) Wednesday, September 1st at 11:20PM EST (link)than I put into it.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
Judea Pearl has a great essay in JPost
finaljeopardy Monday, August 30th at 1:48PM EST (link)http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=186164
In a Jerusalem Post op-ed article, Judea Pearl, father of the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel murdered by Islamic terrorists in Pakistan eight years ago, says that permitting the Ground Zero mosque project would prolong “the illusion” that the American Muslim leadership can achieve public acceptance without confronting its role in allowing “victimhood, anger and entitlement” to spawn acts of terrorism.
no, sharia is not acceptable
Veronica (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 2:25PM EST (link)What leftiest out there can tell me that the picture highlighting this Time article can be publicly accepted?
Notice the Time mag headliner: “What Happens if We Leave Afghanistan.”
WITHOUT a clear & definitive condemnation by this administration or by liberal bigwigs of sharia law, we now know “What Happens if Sharia Comes to America.”
We’re not getting it.
We’re getting bread and circus, labeling, framing & propaganda .. including the famous 1-liner “jihad is an acceptable tenet of Islam.”
Here’s a 1-liner for you: Mr. Obama, tear down this wall!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pray as if everything depends on God, and work as if everything depends on us. – St. Augustine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Crist allowed fundraising for Hamas in a FL mosque
finaljeopardy Monday, August 30th at 3:48PM EST (link)A key Muslim ally of Florida Governor and US Senate candidate Charlie Crist, Imam Muhammad Musri, hosted a fundraiser in Orlando for the terrorist group Hamas in June 2009, and a camera crew from ACT for America infiltrated the event held at Masjid Al-Rahman, Musri’s mosque, to record the proceedings.
This is on Breitbart’s Big Peace today.
The left is always allying itself with elements that would slash its throat as soon as the revolution comes
renny (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:54PM EST (link)If Shi’ria law ever came to the US, the first things that would happen are women would be smothered in tents and thrown out of schools and jobs.
Homosexuals would be killed.
Public schools would devolve into cells of rote memorization and chanting of the Koran (by males only).
Christians, Jews, Buddhists, et. al. would be told to convert or be threatened at the least with extra taxes and second-class citizenship and at the worst with beheadings.
And how do you think CNN and MSBNC drones would respond to those situations? What would happen to Christ Matthews “thrill up his leg” then?
Muslim all over are pushing for special privileges like foot baths at the U of MI (the got it–do you think the U of MI would provide holy water outside classes for Catholics?) and prayer rugs and time for praying to Mecca in W VA public schools (they did not get it so far).
They are 1.8 million out of 310,000,000 (and there are probably as many or more of those who believe in handling rattlesnakes as religious expression) or LESS THAN 1 percent of the US and yet are a constant whine and plague on the body politic.
Bork’em.
Whoa! WV?!!
finaljeopardy Friday, September 3rd at 2:32PM EST (link)Born and raised there, and I know there is a large Lebanese population, but I always thought they were Christian refugees. I’m shocked there would be a push for Muslim accommodation.
I did wonder why so many mosques are being pushed in rural TN, AL, etc. After reading this article about Israeli profiling, maybe they think they have an easy mark. I think jihadis underestimate us at their own peril.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htterr/articles/20100726.aspx
Look around
tex41lb Tuesday, August 31st at 11:44AM EST (link)Take a close look at your community. Is the leadership in the government and school system accepting of Muslum, Islamic, demands? We need to start resisting one sided acceptance of Islamic demands. They are welcome as muslums commited to America, but not as proponants of Sheira law replacing our Constitultion.
Excellent! I don't think I have read a more detailed...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:01PM EST (link)and succinct description of Muslims and their desire to build a victory Mosque either on or near where their fanatics who kill in the name of Islam started a WAR with America on 9-11-01!
If these wussified college “progressives” do not understand that WE WILL NOT CAPITULATE they will learn. America is NOT Europe and WE will fight to the death for OUR Country!
The false narrative btw that “only” right-wingers are the reason for all of the pushback is being proven WRONG again and again in EVERY poll that is done on this issue!
Unified Patriots – How-To:
Activists Taking Action
Not to nitpick, but...
rbdwiggins (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:44PM EST (link)Islam had been at war with the United States for more than thirty years when the Twin Towers fell. The majority of the American people just didn’t realize that fact before September 11, 2001, because a compliant press abrogated its constitutional responsibility and withheld from them… the truth.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
not to nitpick with you but WAR was waged on 9/11/01...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 8:21PM EST (link)on the American homeland (I hate that word btw). They were attempting to engage US for too many years to count prior to that however it can be DEFINITIVELY stated that on that day in this Country that America was attacked in a provocation of WAR!
Unified Patriots – How-To:
Activists Taking Action
I didn't say...
rbdwiggins (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 8:44PM EST (link)It wasn’t an act of war, because it certainly was.
I responded to the “started a WAR with America on 9-11-01” part of your comment, because I’m convinced that you know better…
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
I find homeland too germanic in sound
tex41lb Tuesday, August 31st at 11:49AM EST (link)How about “soil”, as in American soil?
rbdwiggins
tlhanger Tuesday, August 31st at 10:11AM EST (link)I agree with you. Just because we didn’t retalliate didn’t mean they were not at war against us. Smart people recognize this. POTUS must live in a fantasy world or he is on their side. It would of been a lot simpler if people would of opened their eyes and not elected him, but now it will either be harder or we will be able to clean house for another 20 years. I really do pray the many voices of the public turning to God is going to help us make a resolve to take our country back.
Terry L Hanger
So great a piece, Streiff, that I wish I could reco it a hundred times.
janis (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:20PM EST (link)Failing that, I wish that it could be stickied to the Front Page every day until September 13th.
To date, every single thing we have done in this country with regard to defending ourselves and our way of life has been attacked as “you are going to radicalize even more Muslims and create more terrorists.”
Yet none of them ever say that we have pacified any Muslims by freeing over 50 million of them in Iraq and Afghanistan. How come it doesn’t work both ways? And for the record, I’m tired of being threatened with violence if I don’t shut up about actions which I perceive as being threatening to the safety and welfare of my country. Particularly by the ones who are purportedly still Americans.
Lose/Lose
coldair Monday, August 30th at 1:23PM EST (link)The Imam has happened upon an extremely fortuitous circumstance here – he cannot lose.
If his project is stopped, he gets to claim racial/religious bigotry.
If his project is completed, he gets to extend the middle finger to us in perpetuity.
And probably both, in either event.
Imam Crash Roof loses face if this mosque gets scrapped
finaljeopardy Monday, August 30th at 1:40PM EST (link)N/T
He may lose "more" than just face
izoneguy (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:43PM EST (link)Islam is not very forgiving…..
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
TRANSFORMATIONAL
finaljeopardy Monday, August 30th at 1:29PM EST (link)“The attitude we are seeing is one that demands acceptance rather than acknowledging that acceptance is earned in a free society.”
We elected a community organizer to lead our nation. Smart move, huh?
"We", finaljeopardy? No. "They". nt
janis (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:33PM EST (link)He won
finaljeopardy Monday, August 30th at 1:42PM EST (link)I didn’t vote for him, but I acknowledge the election results. I am also looking forward to 1-20-13.
Absolutely wonderful writing..
smitch61 Monday, August 30th at 1:36PM EST (link)Terrific piece… It is amazing and almost humorous the left’s new found argument on Christianity and religious freedom.. Now if a national leader can point out their hypocrisy using the examples you have provided we would be all the better for it. They are still going on, and on, and on, and on about Glen Beck and the rally on Saturday, quoting all kinds of wonderful scriptures they use to save us from ourselves and our so called bigotry of the christian faith we hold. I have not yet heard today from the left their scripture message located in the bible that supports the genocide of 45 million dead fetuses. I am anxious to here that one.
The secondary title on the header is all that was needed.
Kenny Solomon (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:40PM EST (link)“Listen, and understand. That
TerminatorIslam is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.”There is no moderate Islam, there is only Islam.
Your choices: a. Convert…. b. Submit…. c. Die.
I choose the following: d. Hey peace lovers: Go spit up a rope….. Molon Labe.
——-
and no…… no…… I’m not gonna quit it with the Muslims…….. not until they quit it with me, my nation and her people.
God help us all if push comes to shove.
No Conundrum Exists: The Irrationality of Tolerating Your Own Destruction
Ausonius (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 1:53PM EST (link)At what point does a society end its toleration of a group who would use that toleration to bring the society to an end and establish intolerance?
John Locke addressed this problem, and others related, in his “Letter concerning Toleration.”
Locke was worried mainly about the role of government and enforcing toleration among Christian churches, but he does occasionally talk about “Mahometans.”
A salient excerpt: here Locke postulates a Church which is after ruling power and economic dominance by any means.
“That Church can have no right to be tolerated by the magistrate which is constituted upon such a bottom that all those who enter into it do thereby ipso facto deliver themselves up to the protection and service of another prince. For by this means the magistrate would give way to the settling of a foreign jurisdiction in his own country and suffer his own people to be listed, as it were, for soldiers against his own Government.”
Locke and the Enlightenment were concerned about rational thought being applied to society. They would find the “Ground Zero Mosque conundrum” easy to solve.
You say no.
Unless you are an irrational leftist Democrat.
Ausonius: 310-395 A.D. Teacher, Poet, Consul, General, Farmer.
Personal Tutor to the future St. Paulinus of Nola and to young Gratian, heir to the throne during the turbulent final years of the Western Roman Empire. When his former student Gratian was assassinated, Ausonius threw up his hands and retired to his farm in Gaul. Rome was captured by barbarians 14 years after his death.
Cato@rock.com
Asonious, if I recall
aesthete (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:15PM EST (link)you’re a practicing Catholic: the group that Locke was targeting with his writing in this case. Would you submit yourself to a loss of liberties to accommodate your fellow citizens, as Locke would have had you do? Maybe you would do so voluntarily (there’s certainly precedent in Christian thought to giving up one’s rights for others), and that may very well be the right choice. Can you force that same choice on other Catholics? I daresay that you can’t, and that no one can, if they are to be consistent in their application of the “self-evident” truths that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed with the right to life, liberty, and property as stated in the Virginia Declaration of Rights. Therefore, if by “toleration”, one means that individual Muslim-Americans should be subject to the same laws and allowed the same rights as other Americans, then we should support “toleration” (what a wholly unsuitable word for the concept of protecting freedoms from the tyranny of the majority!). Indeed, we should point out that leftists support freedoms inconsistently, and attack them for making the right call for the wrong reason.
Locke’s excerpted postulate assumes that the nature of the given religion presupposes allegiance to a specific political power (in the case of Catholics, the Vatican), not a general support for “God’s laws” over “man’s laws”: to believe that Locke was speaking of the latter, one would have to turn religious freedom on its head, as no religion, save state religion and orthopraxic religions, would allow for man’s laws to supersede God’s. That being made clear, you must believe that all believers of Islam hold themselves as subjects of an alternate, specific political power to apply Locke’s maxim: since the Caliphate was dismantled, no such political entity has existed (and looking at the history of the Islamic powers, it’s clear that such a political power was never compelling enough to mandate political and societal uniformity across the Islamic world, anyways). But let’s assume that Locke’s maxim is valid in this case: if Islam and its practitioners are wholly incompatible to American values, why not simply exile them, or put them away from the rest of society? That is what Locke would actually have us do, not some pusillanimous gesture in denying the GZM mosque a permit. Indeed, Lockean thought, properly applied, would allow for the Japanese Internment and the locking up of Shinto Japanese, the exile of Jewish Americans whose supposed religious allegiance is to the state of Israel, and, as mentioned before, the casting out of Catholics loyal to their Pope. The moments in American history where such a maxim has been followed (some of them mentioned by streiff) have been tragic ones, and by no means representative of the overall American tendency towards treating citizens as discrete individuals. An America where one’s religious identification becomes a rationale for the stripping of rights is an America that would be acting against its better instincts, though it would regrettably be an America following in the footsteps of many countries before it.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Even most "moderates" find the Caliphate pretty compelling
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:49PM EST (link)There are opinion polls on these topics you know
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Greetings Aesthete: Logic and Locke
Ausonius (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:04PM EST (link)Certainly Locke finds e.g. atheists untrustworthy, since they have no fear of eternal punishment. As a result, they lose any right to be tolerated.
Part of the problem with Islam, as with Christianity, is that its interpretation can be so diverse. We know that some Moslems and Christians are fine with a more allegorical approach to their scriptures, others insist on the fundamental literalist interpretation.
If you read the essay, you will see that Locke is very much concerned with the allegiance of Catholics to Rome, which at that time was still much too concerned with power politics (and although the Spanish Armada predates the essay by c. 100 years, the memory of that attempted invasion scarred the English for a very long time), but also with the idea of how government referees toleration among competing groups:
the hallmark of the competition, says Locke, must be peaceful persuasion, and no resort to violence can … be … tolerated.
So I can easily agree that some of Locke’s specific points cannot apply these days, but that the general point remains: it should be obvious that you do not tolerate those bent on destroying you. Since – according to the reports I have seen – non-radical Moslems seem NOT to be involved with the Ground Zero mosque, they should be shooed away…and watched carefully!
Yes, it is to our credit that we have not booted out every Moslem or worse.
“Trust in God, but Locke your doors!”
Ausonius: 310-395 A.D. Teacher, Poet, Consul, General, Farmer.
Personal Tutor to the future St. Paulinus of Nola and to young Gratian, heir to the throne during the turbulent final years of the Western Roman Empire. When his former student Gratian was assassinated, Ausonius threw up his hands and retired to his farm in Gaul. Rome was captured by barbarians 14 years after his death.
Cato@rock.com
Edit above:
Ausonius (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:07PM EST (link)“they should be shooed away” should read “the RADICALS should be shooed away
Ausonius: 310-395 A.D. Teacher, Poet, Consul, General, Farmer.
Personal Tutor to the future St. Paulinus of Nola and to young Gratian, heir to the throne during the turbulent final years of the Western Roman Empire. When his former student Gratian was assassinated, Ausonius threw up his hands and retired to his farm in Gaul. Rome was captured by barbarians 14 years after his death.
Cato@rock.com
history is screaming on the rack
streiff (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:44PM EST (link)The “Vatican” didn’t exist as we know it today when this was written. The Pope ruled a network of states in central Italy called, oddly enough, The Papal States. More importantly, he had a great deal of influence over the rulers of Spain and France who had been at war with Britain for a century more or less. There was a great deal of doubt that Catholics could be relied upon to serve the Crown if the Church in England were left alone.
Can’t disagree with him. Somebody famous once said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. Here we’re not even talking about the Constitution.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I know the history
aesthete (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:04PM EST (link)The Vatican, of course, being the result and creation of negotiations between the Pope and a unified Italy . Interestingly enough, at around the time that Locke was writing (give or take a couple decades), the Papal States as a political power were at their height, and certainly France, Spain, and Portugal (particularly the latter two) took their cues from this state. In addition, the Seven Years’ War probably wasn’t great impetus to write about religious tolerance. Because of that historical perspective, I’m more than willing to cut Locke a lot of slack, and he’s probably more liberal on the whole ordeal than I would have been at that time. Nevertheless, I don’t see why we need laws dealing with Muslims specifically: if their practice of Islam is contrary to the laws on the books, we can simply book them on that law.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
The “fundamental mistake” we make about Islam.
kestrel (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 8:49PM EST (link)Ausonius, out of appreciation for your excellent quote from Locke, I’m going to paste (yeah, paste) this comment here, though several others on this thread also make the same general point – particularly Flagstaff, RepairManJack and ncbro, as I remember.
This is a statement by U.S. Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin (Ret.), which he made in an interview with W. Thomas Smith, Jr. (posted at Townhall.com. on 8/23/10.) Boykin was Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence from 2004-2007. He echoes your point, and I agree.
“We need to remember that Islam is not a religion, but a totalitarian way of life with a religious component. Yet we protect the entire thing under the first amendment. Stop and think about it. Islam is a legal system, a political system, a financial system, a dress code, a moral code, and a social structure, yet we protect it as a first amendment issue. That’s our fundamental mistake.”
Captured on Video: Fundraising for Hamas in U.S. Mosque
izoneguy (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 2:33PM EST (link)Captured on Video: Fundraising for Hamas in U.S. Mosque
http://bigpeace.com/stzu/2010/08/30/captured-on-video-fundraising-for-hamas-in-u-s-mosque/
Organized by the Islamic Society of Central Florida’s Imam Muhammad Musri, the compelling video features leftist former UK MP George Galloway and three-time felon Mahdi Bray of the Muslim American Society’s Freedom Foundation raising at least $55,000 for Hamas.
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
Do a search of Imam Musri and Charlie Crist.
Kenny Solomon (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:07PM EST (link)Surprise , eh ?
Still on flgov.com but for how long?
izoneguy (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:15PM EST (link)http://www.flgov.com/advisory
Governor’s Faith-Based and Community Advisory Board
Imam Muhammad Musri, Islamic Society of Central Florida
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1396
Imam Muhammad Musri, who oversees seven mosques from the Islamic Society of Central Florida, believes that Arab Christians claiming to have converted from Islam “are lying and . . . were actually Christians all along.” “They are using tales of conversion,” he says, “to get financial backing from evangelical ministries.” Taking a jab at Christianity’s many Protestant denominations, he adds, “We don’t want the Muslims to end up with 700 determinations of Islam.” Musri’s speeches are sold and distributed by the Islamic Society of North America.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6178
ISLAMIC SOCIETY OF NORTH AMERICA
Enforces extremist Wahhabi theological writ in America’s mosques
According to terrorism expert Steven Emerson, ISNA “is a radical group hiding under a false veneer of moderation”; “convenes annual conferences where Islamist militants have been given a platform to incite violence and promote hatred” (for instance, al Qaeda supporter and PLO official Yusuf Al-Qaradhawi was invited to speak at an ISNA conference); has held fundraisers for terrorists (after Hamas leader Mousa Marzook was arrested and eventually deported in 1997, ISNA raised money for his defense); has condemned the U.S. government’s post-9/11 seizure of Hamas’ and Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s financial assets; and publishes a bi-monthly magazine, Islamic Horizons, that “often champions militant Islamist doctrine.”
According to the Investigative Project on Terrorism, an 86-page report issued by the office of U.S. Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) states that the Department of Justice (DOJ) has conducted outreach work with ISNA. Most notably, in September 2007 DOJ co-sponsored ISNA’s national convention — with American taxpayer dollars.
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
If Muslims are concerned about anti-Muslim sentiment
indylawyer (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 2:52PM EST (link)A really good start would be to oppose insulting us by building a mosque at Ground Zero. It should be obvious to all that this mosque is being widely perceived as a celebration of the 9-11 attacks. There is no other reason to build at this particular site. If built, the mosque will be a permanent monument to Muslim hatred for America, and a constant source of friction between Muslims and those who love America. Any Muslim who wants his religion to be respected and honored in this country ought to be loudly condemning this mosque instead of whining that Americans are responding to its obvious insult.
A simple solution would be to just pass a law
emaberk Monday, August 30th at 3:55PM EST (link)that limits mosque construction in certian areas that are a security threat. You can not have recruitment centers like this, its just plain dangerous and the left is just enraged because we’re telling the truth.
a really bad idea
streiff (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:49PM EST (link)for a lot of reasons.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Its perfectly reasonable not to let your enemies
emaberk Monday, August 30th at 9:09PM EST (link)infiltrate security areas. Supporting their recruitment center is a huge mistake
Great read, Streiff!
uselogic Monday, August 30th at 4:28PM EST (link)I’ve passed this on to remind folks what we’re up against… Islamists AND their idiotic, Progressive enablers. (Yeah. That includes you, Bloomberg.)
It's not a hard one to see...
anotherindyfilmguy (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 4:54PM EST (link)Islam is at war with everything not under it’s control, the only thing that varies in it is method and degree based on the current circumstances.
It is at war with us, all of us, but many among us want to act like we are not at war with a religion so the squishy lefties among us can feel superior to everyone else around them despite their total lack of common sense in dealing with anything resembling a true threat to our lives and liberty or pretty much any other topic…
Santorum? Well, at least he’s not Romney…
http://www.zazzle.com/enemy_of_the_statist_tshirt-235977043035297478
I think they all better pray to Allah
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 4:56PM EST (link)They may think that since they got away with building a mosque in Cordoba and one on Solomon’s Temple that they can build one at Ground Zero, but they are dead wrong.
These tinhorn jihadists have no idea what they have done with this “community center” propsal, and the hornet’s nest that has been poked does not hang in a Muslim community. It hangs in mine.
Now Let's Just Take A Minute
dfaith Monday, August 30th at 4:56PM EST (link)and consider some comments made by that wimpy, liberal appeaser George W. Bush (sarcasm).
“Here in the United States our Muslim citizens are making many contributions in business, science and law, medicine and education, and in other fields. Muslim members of our Armed Forces and of my administration are serving their fellow Americans with distinction, upholding our nation’s ideals of liberty and justice in a world at peace.”
“America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may Eid also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a Nation and a global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all.”
“Ours is a war not against a religion, not against the Muslim faith. But ours is a war against individuals who absolutely hate what America stands for…And therefore, we must work together to defend ourselves. And by remaining strong and united and tough, we’ll prevail.”
“Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others. Ours is a country based upon tolerance and we welcome people of all faiths in America.”
“We see in Islam a religion that traces its origins back to God’s call on Abraham. We share your belief in God’s justice, and your insistence on man’s moral responsibility. We thank the many Muslim nations who stand with us against terror. Nations that are often victims of terror, themselves.”
We were not attacked by Islam on September 11th any more than abortion clinics have been bombed by Christianity. Attacking the Americans, both citizens and residents, building this mosque is an affront to religious liberty and is, quite frankly, unpatriotic and anti-American values.
They way some of the leaders of my party (and many Democrats) have conducted themselves during this debate has been shameful–and completely unworthy of the party of Lincoln. They have stirred up the emotions of people and misdirected it toward a group of innocents, who merely want to worship freely according to the right that this country (and some would say God Himself) has given them.
Republicans should be standing on the side of religious liberty and expression, not engaging in crass demagoguery. We call liberals hypocritical for attempting to ban religious symbols from the public square while supporting this mosque without realizing the inherent contradiction of doing the exact opposite. I hope my party comes back to it senses soon and demonstrates its commitment to the ideals of religious liberty.
You are a liar
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:11PM EST (link)The leaders of “your” party (what a crock) have not stirred up anything. The leaders of the mosque project have decided to poke a finger in the eye of a country who are tired of being targeted. The people who are funding this triumphal mosque are not Americans, this project has nothing to do with religious liberty and everything to do with jihad, and it is time we stood up to a religion of theocracy that fully intends to make America sharia compliant and true liberty a thing of the past.
You are the demagogue. You are the liar. You are the one who stands on the side of subjugation and terror and evil. And you are the reason our great country becomes more diminished every day.
But November is coming, pal. November is coming.
Maybe not the "leaders"
aesthete (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:41PM EST (link)Thank goodness, most of our “leaders” (such as they are) have opposed the truly idiotic sentiment on the part of some individuals in the Republican party. However, there is, unfortunately, enough of that sentiment in the general right-wing movement to have political impact. A mosque in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, has faced some difficulty due to protesters who want to use their local government to stop them from expanding their mosque, citing Christianity and traditional values as their motivation. Another mosque in Wisconsin had similar problems (this mosque was later vandalized). A pastor in Alabama has called for Koran burnings on Sept 11 (because when I think 9/11, my mind always goes to generalized hatred for Muslims). These aren’t isolated actions on the part of a few crazies, as was the case with the stabbed cabbie (who I won’t put on my list for obvious reasons): these are actions that are preventing Muslims from worshiping as they see fit, and the only way that they make sense is if you ascribe guilt to a group based on the actions of a few, or of foreigners who peripherally share some of your views. If that is the case, perhaps, as someone who belongs to a Pentecostal church, punitive taxes should be levied on me to repay those who were scammed by televangelists in the 80s. Perhaps those Christian denominations which used the Bible to justify slavery should be forced to undergo affirmative action to atone for this transgression. One may not want to admit it, but in many cases, it is the rights of Muslims which are being infringed upon, not ours, and it is incumbent on consistent conservatives to decry these instances, and not to blame the victim.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Not so short answer, aesthete
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:55PM EST (link)Which majority Muslim country would you say has a high degree of civil liberty?
Which majority Muslim country is NOT a theocracy?
Which majority Muslim country treats women as equals?
Which majority Muslim country allows, say, 5% of the religious freedom we enjoy here in America?
When the terrorists shouted “Allah Akhbar” as they flew the planes into the buildings on September 11, did that mean “I have no religion”?
Given the obvious answers to the above, what sane person believes that Muslims have a different plan for America, different view of a proper political system, or different regard for women? What sane person ignores the encroachment of that mindset here in America? Look across the planet, and see how “Muslims worship as they see fit”. Tell me how that is compatible with American values, much less Western Civilization.
The simple fact of the matter is that Islam is every bit as much of a political movement as a religious one, if not more. It therefore disqualifies itself from any claim to any religious freedoms enjoyed in this country. The history of Islam, from its beginning to this very day, Monday, August 30th, 2010, is dripping with triumphal mosques, subjugation and terrorism. That is an undeniable fact, so count me out of the suicide pact.
Bahrain isn't too bad
aesthete (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 9:13PM EST (link)It’s close to being on the top 10 in economic freedom, is a relatively stable constitutional monarchy, does a good job of protecting women and minority rights, and is generally upstanding, ditto Kuwait (the country we defended in the Gulf War). Indonesia and Malaysia are improving, and Jordan is, again, fairly decent when it comes to those issues you mention. Are any of them perfect? Of course not, but relative to the rest of the undeveloped world, they’re pretty good. At any rate, I don’t see why looking at what savages in other countries are doing is particularly relevant to the discussion.
And you’ll note that the examples I used were examples in which the adherents themselves cited Christianity to justify or explain their actions, just as some Muslims do today in defense of suicide bombing.
Muslims really aren’t some monolithic group intent on destroying our freedoms. That, and the fact that there nevertheless are several pernicious groups within Islam in the US with goals antithetical to our own, should be the starting points for a discussion.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
No discussion until two things are done
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 9:49PM EST (link)1) Every Muslim in America – every one – renounces sharia law, and
2) Every person involved in this triumphal mosque apologizes for their incredible insensitivity and the group donates the building to be used as a museum to the lives their fellow believers cut short, then gets their sorry a$$es to one of the 100 mosques in New York City that are available for worship, and stays there.
As far as this goes:
“And you’ll note that the examples I used were examples in which the adherents themselves cited Christianity to justify or explain their actions, just as some Muslims do today in defense of suicide bombing.”
I missed the examples of Christians flying planes into buildings, beheading innocent journalists, bombing buildings or blowing up Marines. I’ll read your comments again to make sure I didn’t overlook them.
The discussion between us is over, aesthete.
Nice try - women still aren't allowed to drive in Bahrain, if I'm not mistaken.
Teresa in Fort Worth, TX (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 9:54PM EST (link)If you’re a man, no doubt you can find many things to recommend Muslim countries; however, if you are a woman, there are NO Muslim countries that hold a candle to the freedoms that are accorded to EVERYONE in this country.
Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy ride…..
You are mistaken
aesthete (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:09PM EST (link)Women are allowed both to drive and vote.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Women can drive.
Uma Richie (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:11PM EST (link)Ruling family control or at least censorship of the press is the big issue there IMHO. Every time there is reason to criticize the monarchy, the papers start spewing anti-Israelisms and anti-Americanisms. If Israel ceased to exist, I don’t know what the Sheikhs would do to deflect attention away from themselves.
women can drive
Doc Holliday (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:22PM EST (link)but they can’t park.
Molon Labe!
Doc- Did you read my reply to you
Scope (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:37PM EST (link)when you defended me the other night. Please do. I had gone to bed right after I replied to you.
Funny Doc, but you raise a good point.
Uma Richie (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 11:03PM EST (link)Thank goodness (Alhamdulillah?) for Bahrain’s parking lot attendants.
Doc, I caution you...
snowshooze (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 11:24PM EST (link)Don’t confuse facts with theory.
Unsubstaintiated statements have to be considered as theory…or hypothesis..
and must be qualified as such.
law of allah
tex41lb Tuesday, August 31st at 12:00PM EST (link)Islam can not be defined outside of islamic law.The law is Islam is it not?
Hate crime statistics show that far more Jews than Muslims are victimized
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:04PM EST (link)and the number of Muslim victims is strikingly small.
There are more instances of spousal murder than there are hate crimes against Muslims in the US. Do I condemn such crimes, yes, but but they are statistically speaking de minimis. Moreover, groups like CAIR have been found to gin up false reports of such events.
The idea that there is any kind of wave of hatred out there is nonsense. Despite the violent threats that result from things like the cartoons, and all of the self-censorship that results, the American people have shown remarkable restraint.
Any discussion of this topic should credit the American people for that restraint.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
True, they're much better than their European peers
aesthete (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:47PM EST (link)The gold standard of “enlightenment”, to hear our liberal betters tell it *rolls eyes*
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
aesthete, your take on the mosque in Murfreesboro is not
janis (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:07PM EST (link)particularly correct. The entire controversy started with a city planning commission which issued the permit for a 52,000 square foot building. This is not an “expansion”, this is an entirely different location in an area of nothing but residential homes. The commission never bothered to notify citizens of the plan and let them air their concerns, they just issued the permit and made it a done deal. Of course, once the cat was out of the bag, the citizens in that area felt that they had been cheated. And rightly so. Regardless of the religious connotation, would you appreciate a structure of that size, along with the attendant parking and traffic situations, plonked down in your neighborhood of ranch-style homes?
As to the protests since, yes, many, many citizens in Murfreesboro and its surrounding communities have been quite concerned., There are, at most, 250 Muslim families in Murfreesboro. Why do they need a building of 52,000 sq. feet for 250 families to worship? The concerns about this building and its uses are valid. Couple that concern with people who bought homes in the area because they were convinced that it would stay a residential neighborhood with only other homes or parks in it, and you have all you need for some angry citizens.
Meanwhile, public officials have done the opposite here
civil truth (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:22PM EST (link)Tying down church building projects and even Christian schools with interminable zoning denials and EIRs out the kazoo, reflecting their animus (and much of the community’s) towards Christianity, especially of the evangelical variety.
(Interestingly, the troubles are not so much in Oakland, where churches have a substantial role in governance, but rather the opposition comes in the more affluent (and whiter) communities. But that’s an aside.)
Anyway, regarding Mufreesboro, has anyone followed the money as to why the planning commission railroaded this mosque – did they have ulterior motives to defy the populace in such as high-handed manner?
And why no lawsuits over the violations of due process?
And are these commissioners (or the politicians who appointed them if that is the case) going to face electoral retribution and get thrown out of office? If not, then I guess they know their voters.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Thanks for the correction
aesthete (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:14PM EST (link)Since you live there, I’ll assume that you’re correct in that statement. (Mind you, I still think that it’s wrong to use government coercion to force property owners not to make use of their property as they see fit, but I’ll retract my statement about protestors being motivated by Islam in specific.)
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
not much of a comment
streiff (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:34PM EST (link)assuming that everything you say here is true it is meaningless.
The issue is a very simple one and has nothing to do with religious liberty in any way shape or form (neither do any of your examples, either). The issue is a religious group that threatens to undertake violent action — being ‘radicalized’ — because they didn’t get their way.
BTW, there is no right to “worship as you see fit,” not that building the GZM would qualify. Polygamy is outlawed if you want an example. Animal sacrifices associated with Santeria are also outlawed.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
In that case
aesthete (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:44PM EST (link)Neither was Jack’s, as it was more focused on what forms of government with a majority Muslim population, if any, protected civil liberties and womens’ rights. As my comment was addressed to Jack, and not to the main post, it, too, was unrelated to the original question. In turn, the person Jack was replying to was also off-topic.
Obviously, subjects like this one will lead to “comment sprawl”, which is to some extent fine.
To get back on topic I wish I had a good answer for you concerning what we should do about “radicalization”: I think that it is similar to the questions of what one should have done in the 60s and 70s with civil rights radicals, the main difference being that the Civil Rights movement mostly got what they wanted (this is a good thing). The Islamists will never, and should never, get what they want. The answer I have to your query is that we should use existing law enforcement norms in dealing with citizens, and that we can get more inventive when dealing with immigrants and foreign nationals.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Tough cookies--when my people came here
renny (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:14PM EST (link)in the mid-1800s, they were met by army recruiters who sent them off to fight the Civil War (on both sides) without a by your leave.
In NYC, Irish Catholics constantly faced signs that said, “No Paddys Need Apply.” They were called the whtie n*******s and had to work for less pay than blacks.
Schools would not enroll their children, which began the start of Catholic parochial schools
There was no Civil Rights Act and when the 14th Amend. passed, it was not supposed to apply to the Irish.
So, Muslims are here under optimum conditions, have both idjit public school teachers’ unions under their thumbs (so all US school children are being indoctrinated into seeing Muslims as victims who need coddling and special treatment), and catered to by this White House (and even Bush’).
I’ll go nativist and say if they don’t like it here, go home.
Point taken
indylawyer (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:25PM EST (link)But how many Republicans are really talking about prohibiting this mosque? A few are doing so, including in this thread. But most are saying basically “they have the right to build it, but they shouldn’t.” The objective as I see it is getting the Muslim American community to rise up and say something like, “we oppose this Mosque and demand it not be built because it is deeply offensive to our neighbors and displays our faith in the worst possible light.” And if they don’t, to take notice that they are apparently supporting an effort to celebrate the 9-11 attacks.
This mosque is intended to inflame tensions between Americans and Muslims. The way to sooth those tensions is to stop it from being built in that location. If the builders just want a mosque in that area, they can easily move it a few blocks and diffuse the issue. They are keeping the location because they want to proclaim a Muslim victory over America. That’s not an issue of religious freedom, its an issue of tolerating people with really bad ideas. Its like letting Nazis march in Jewish neighborhoods. We don’t arrest them, but we don’t give them any respect either.
The mosque is actually intended to be a trophy
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 5:46PM EST (link)a marker of territory. The fact that it inflames tensions is just a bonus.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
They have the right to build...
rbdwiggins (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:02PM EST (link)When sharia is purged from Islam… Until then, Islam remains a socio-economic political doctrine that doesn’t merit constitutional protection.
Look no further than the Dar al-Hijra mosque and Islamic community center in Virginia to discern the real purpose behind building the Cordoba mosque.
It is the duty of every Muslim to embrace jihad. Whether it’s by dawa, or violent jihad, Islam’s overarching purpose is civilizational jihad and the imposition of sharia by any means necessary.
In other words, Islam is wholly inconsistent with the US Constitution and Western Civilization unless/until sharia is rejected and purged from the so-called “religion of peace.”
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
You are exactly right!
dambama Tuesday, August 31st at 11:12AM EST (link)Our Constitution does not require us to respect Communism or Naziism or any other ism that calls for world domination and death to all who resist.
This may be a “religion” to some, but to anyone who loves freedom and liberty this is a freaking NIGHTMARE. This is an ism that must be resisted, and fought, like cancer, before it takes hold.
There is a mosque on Warren Str.
renny (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:16PM EST (link)two blocks farther north.
a brief response
streiff (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:23PM EST (link)1. I supported Bush through eight difficult years. I think he’s a class act. I don’t think he’s a prophet.
2. Expressing a view on the propriety of this project is not at affront to religious liberty. No one is advocating limiting anyone’s religious freedom (other than your side limiting the ability of Christians to pray, etc.). We are expressing our dismay at the utter jackassery involved
3. You fail, just as did GW Bush did, to offer any response to the argument here. How can an alleged religion of peace claim that if they get browned off at the rest of us they will go violent.
4. I fail to see your qualifications to say what Republicans should be standing for. But since you mention it we stand for a country where the right to express an opinion, in this case one shared by over 70% of the country, isn’t silenced because we’re told we’ll ‘radicalize’ people if we don’t.
As a price for your continued participation I’m going to require you to retract a long list of points not made in this post. If not, consider this to have been your last.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
In response,
dfaith Monday, August 30th at 6:50PM EST (link)1. I do not think George Bush is a prophet. I happen to agree with these statements he made. You disagree. I hope we can agree to disagree.
2. I support the right of Christians (including myself) and members of any religion to pray. It is an intellectual cheap shot to automatically label a Republican you disagree with on an issue as some sort of “other” (in this case a liberal). Further, public intimidation is an affront to religious liberty, though, admittedly, not necessarily a violation of it.
3. I do not believe that a religion should be defined by it most extreme element. There are countless Muslim political and religious leaders that have helped us in the War on Terror, including the Imam in question here.
4. Americans do have the right to express opinions, and my opinion is that blaming Muslims, many of whom are Americans, for 9-11 is demagoguery. I don’t want to silence any one, I only wanted to express my dismay of their Jackassery.
I don’t know if this counts as the “retraction” required, but if you want something else just ask.
This is unbelievable
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:56PM EST (link)“…my opinion is that blaming Muslims, many of whom are Americans, for 9-11 is demagoguery.”
Who was it, then? Buddhists? The New Black Panther Party? Methodists? Or were all the planes on Evil Autopilot, with a middle eastern accent and box cutters?
It’s not demagoguery. Its a fact. And I am racking my brain trying to determine why people think this imam, who you credit for winning the war on terror, is not quite who you would make him out to be.
You are proving my point.
dfaith Monday, August 30th at 7:02PM EST (link)You can’t just take a common characteristic of the perpetrators and implicate everyone who shares that characteristic. The terrorists were also all men, but I don’t hear anyone saying that men are responsible for 9-11.
I believe that terrorist organization, Al Qaeda, and its leader, Osama Bin Laden, and all those who assisted them in the planning and carrying out of 9-11 are responsible for that travesty.
I guess you are right
Jack_Savage (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:16PM EST (link)It was a mere coincidence that they were all Muslims. Thanks for straightening that out.
While you are at it, maybe you can put your skills to work helping me discern who was *really* at work in some other little issues we’ve had lately. Beheading of Daniel Pearl? Surely otherwise normal people radicalized by George Bush’s use of the term “crusade”. USS Cole? Pan Am flight over Lockerbie? U.S. Marines sleeping in their barracks in Lebanon? The first bombing of the World Trade Center?
How about the young couple killed last week for adultery in Iran? Or was it Afghanistan? Or maybe Pakistan – I really forget. Maybe you could share some thoughts on the ethnic cleansing of Christians from the Middle East? How about the woman on the cover of Time with her nose cut off? Maybe she was OBL’s wife? Is that it?
Go ahead. I have plenty of time, and I am sure you have plenty of excuses.
The "characteristic" must be defined...
rbdwiggins (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:22PM EST (link)Whether it’s by dawa, or through violent means, the “characteristic” (read: mantra or duty) is civilizational jihad and the imposition of sharia. It is embraced and supported by an overwhelming majority (More than 80%, IIRC.) of Muslims world-wide.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
Either extreme is unreasonable
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:24PM EST (link)In fighting WWII, how much effort was the US required to inquire as to whether an individual soldier actually supported the Axis position?
Should Pearl Harbor have resulted in a war against the Japanese navy instead of Japan? Maybe just that particular fleet? Was declaring war against Germany justified? They didn’t attack Pearl Harbor at all.
Put another way, OBL never crashed any plane, so why blame all of AQ? Maybe it was just the bad parts of AQ? Why not declare war against the 19 hijackers? Besides of course the fact that they were already dead.
The point is depending on the context, a different level of proof (in terms of group traits being applicable to the individual) is required. We are at war with an ideology, not AQ.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
if this is clarification...
streiff (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:01PM EST (link)1. I don’t have any vested interest in ‘agreeing to disagree’ with you when you apparently haven’t bothered reading the post and can’t make any argument more substantive that “I say it is bigotry neener neener neener”
2. At no point in this story or on this list did anyone advocate keeping anyone from prayer. Building anything, however, is a public policy decision governed by politics. It isn’t a religious decision.
3. Again, this convinces me you haven’t bothered to read the story and arguing about what you wish I’d said, not what I did say. For the record, we are told by muslims, from the Taliban to the muslim chaplain at Georgetown, that denying this mosque to be built will result in some, not insubstantial, number becoming ‘radicalized’ and turning to violence. This tells me that the ‘extreme element’ is pretty damned large.
4. When you find an network of Hindus or Buddhists or Mithraists behind the recruiting, funding, training, etc. of muslim attacks on American interests, including, but not limited to, 9/11 I’ll be willing to entertain your point of view. At this juncture it has been proven that 9/11 (both iterations) were exclusively muslim affairs.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I guess we'll just have to disagree to disagree then.
dfaith Monday, August 30th at 7:17PM EST (link)1. I’m not sure if we are talking past each other or just misunderstanding each other. I though my arguments had substance. Do you want me to go to Webster to define demagoguery?
2. You accused “my side” of opposing Christians praying. I stated that I have never supported that position, nor has “my side,” which is the Republican Party. While it is true that local governments do determine ruling governing building project, denying a project based on its religious affiliation has Constitutional implications.
3. I do not support the mosque because I believe opposing it will radicalize people, and I’m not going to defend a position I don’t hold. I support the mosque because I believe it represents the strength of our values that we are able to resist becoming a Christian Saudi Arabia (I say Saudi Arabia because of the common argument that they wouldn’t let us build a church over there).
4. Certainly, those who committed the terrorist act of 9-11 were Muslim. I just don’t think that fact implicates the entire religion.
So, opposing it will radicalize people?
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:50PM EST (link)I would suggest the opposite is true. The number of radicals seems to increase with the number of mosques. Whether this is due to emboldening symbolism or more likely, getting people a chance to be exposed to radicals on a personal level, I think your empirical assumption is 100% backwards.
Poland has less of a “radical” problem than any other country in Europe, and low and behold, they have fewer mosques.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
JS, I agree. And the particular symbolism of...
kestrel (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 9:06PM EST (link)…THIS mosque will bring the jihadists out of the woodwork (or desert hills) like none other. Here is a relevant quote from retired Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin, Defense Intelligence Guy, whom I quoted up-thread (from an interview with W Thomas Smith, Jr.). The last line is the key.
“Islam’s objective in America is to replace our Constitution with Sharia law.
“When they defeated the nomadic tribes in Mecca, they built a mosque at the most holy site. The message was one of triumph, that Islam has now defeated you and Islam reigns supreme. They did the same thing at Córdoba [Spain]. They did it in Jerusalem. Same in Constantinople. The message was always one of conquest and victory. Now… They want to build a mosque there (ground zero) to proclaim that Islam reigns supreme. Do you know what that is going to mean to Muslims all over the world?
“The recruiting to the Jihadist cause will be exponentially increased as a result of the very symbol – the very message – associated with that mosque there.”
a final try
streiff (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 8:19PM EST (link)1. Demagoguery is not something that disagrees with your position. Thus far that has been your definition.
2. Disagree. It doesn’t. The Constitution only allows free exercise of religion it doesn’t grant a right to do it where you want. It never has. There is no constitutional problem in disallowing a building permit to a church. It is done every day.
3. What you believe, if anything, is irrelevant. The fact is that we are told by large numbers of allegedly knowledgeable people that this will be the result. Who do we believe? Them or you?
4. I don’t know if it implicates the entire religion but based on public opinion polls following 9/11 in which 66% of muslims thought the attacks were morally justified I think you’d have to be an imbecile to say it ddn’t represent the views of a super-majority of that religion.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Fact
JakePrime (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 12:45AM EST (link)Disallowing a building permit to a church is okay. Disallowing a building permit to a church because it is Catholic or because it is Baptist, etc. is unconstitutional. There is no question of this.
And when streiff weighs in, you'd better snap to it
civil truth (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 6:33PM EST (link)Does Dien Bien Phu ring a bell (and you’re the French army)?
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Hopefully,
dfaith Monday, August 30th at 6:54PM EST (link)I’ll get an airlift.
Make sure then you don't shoot down your relief helicopters
civil truth (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:05PM EST (link)The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
There is no obligation to tolerate those who are intolerant
student Monday, August 30th at 6:15PM EST (link)John Locke in his “Essay on Toleration” is pertinent to the current issue and puts a qualifier on the statement in the Bill of Rights his ideas birthed. At the time after numerous fratricidal wars trying to get state power and use it to establish hegemony of one Protestant group over all, Protestants had basically come to the conclusion that they were better off competing peacefully for market share and being tolerant of one another. On the other hand, at that time, the Catholic church was still using state power in France and Spain to crush Protestants. Locke recommended tolerance towards Protestants (b/c they did not seek state enforced hegemony) but not towards Catholics (since they still did). Only after the 30 years war did the Vatican abandon war and adopt religious tolerance. Islam has only expanded by military conquest and degrades, humiliates and crushes non-Muslims (Dhimmi) considering them inferior. Islam has not adopted a policy of tolerance and should not be treated with tolerance until they do.
55555
ywhyvon1 Monday, August 30th at 7:23PM EST (link)Socialist with fork looking for Socialist with pork pie-unknown
Ground Zero Mosque...
harlan Monday, August 30th at 7:11PM EST (link)Muslims, marking their territory. It’s what they do.
I’m gratified that Streiff’s post shows more comments than any other at RS today. All other discussions are moot if the country surrenders to a horrid, pseudo-religious, totalitarian ideology.
Conundrum on a flight from Birmingham to Chicago to Amsterdam.
Kenny Solomon (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 7:20PM EST (link)Must be ‘misunderstanders’ again.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/united-flight-arrested-terror-charges-amsterdam/story?id=11517664
Airport security screeners in Birmingham, Alabama first stopped al Soofi and referred him to additional screening because of what officials said was his “bulky clothing.”
In addition, officials said, al Soofi was found to be carrying $7,000 in cash and a check of his luggage found a cell phone taped to a Pepto-Bismol bottle, three cell phones taped together, several watches taped together, a box cutter and three large knives. Officials said there was no indication of explosives and he and his luggage were cleared for the flight from Birmingham to Chicago O’Hare.
===================
Two words: Dry run – to make sure TSA is as competent as always.
Oh wait….. That was more than two words. Sorry.
Can’t you just wait to hear our oh-so-transparent government and their lock-step media explain this one away ?
The Left are using the Muslims as a tool to further....
penguin2 (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 9:02PM EST (link)their own agenda and of getting Judaism and Christianity completely out of the public square and consciousness. Eventually, they’ll land up regretting getting in bed with them, but for right now it suits their purposes. (It will backfire on them someday.)
On the question of religious tolerance and bigotry. Uptread it has been well noted that it is a smokescreen, and it is. It their way of shutting down dissent and suppressing the voices of those who have a right to say No.
Of course it isn’t religious bigotry from those that oppose it, it is a matter of that the land at Ground Zero is held in sacred and hallowed memory, not to be stained and tainted by those that seek to harm us. If the people who wish to build that particular mosque were truly “moderate” and seeking to live in peace and brotherhood with fellow New Yorkers, they would be sensitive to the feeling of those that wish to have respect and honored memory for those that died. Their motives are suspect, and they cannot pretend otherwise.
Religious tolerance, or pick and choose? The Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed in the 9/11 attack has yet to be issued the building permits to rebuild – nine years later.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List
Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots
And the "reverse" of that is also true: the Muslims are using the Left to advance their agenda.
Teresa in Fort Worth, TX (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:02PM EST (link)Only those on the Left don’t realize that they are only “Useful Idiots” who will be killed once they have outlived their usefulness…..
Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy ride…..
Mutual useful idiots.
Uma Richie (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:53PM EST (link)Definition: By fascist “Muslims” I mean the political and religious elites in countries where Islam is the official religion, terrorist group members, terrorist group financiers, and terrorist group aid and comfort providers.
Obviously, fascist “Muslims” need the American left as
-An ally against Jews and Christians
-Bureaucratic lubricant
-A propaganda machine
Leftists acting in these roles allow the fascist “Muslims” to carry out their offensive against America.
Insidiously, fascist “Muslims” need the American left
-To portray the majority of Americans as sexually promiscuous
-To portray the majority of Americans as drug users
-To portray the majority of Americans baby aborters
-To portray American Christians as anti-Islamic bigots
These portrayals subdue the outrage from rank and file Muslims living in Muslim countries when terrorists attack Americans. (I imagine based on their false impressions of America, many inhabitants of Muslim countries feel the same way about me that I felt about George Tiller.) These portrayals also help shore up monarchies. (If you get the American style of government, you will get all of America’s problems.)
If he were truly moderate, Imam Rauf would be a RedState front pager. If the Cordoba project were truly moderate, Park 51 would be a crisis pregnancy center and drug rehab clinic with the goal of saving 2996 American lives to make up for the sins of others. If it were a truly moderate project, the permit paperwork would still be pigeon-holed in NY city hall.
If the followers of Islam don't like how they are being treated in this country, then those "children" can take their ball and go home to Mommy.
Teresa in Fort Worth, TX (Diary) Monday, August 30th at 10:08PM EST (link)I always told my kids that they were more than welcome to have a temper tantrum whenever they wanted to, but they would have to do it away from me, because I wasn’t required to listen to it.
But if they EVER started being destructive, they learned right quick that wasn’t such a good idea. And the lesson was “taught” in such a way that they thought twice about trying it again.
If these people want to act like spoiled children, then they need to understand that we aren’t the kind of Mommies and Daddies who are going to put up with their behavior.
Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy ride…..
Except, the Democrats are.
Plumb_Bob (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 10:40AM EST (link)“we aren’t the kind of Mommies and Daddies who are going to put up with their behavior.”
You’re not. And I’m not. But when you were raising your kids, you knew plenty of parents who were allowing exactly that sort of nonsense from their children, and you did your best to keep your kids far, far away from them. Right?
And isn’t it funny how 80% of those problem parents vote Democrat…
(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, “Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture,” at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)
I
gunslingr45 Tuesday, August 31st at 8:02AM EST (link)am a racist against anyone who would do my country men and women harm. No matter their color and or religious beliefs.
If they put the mosque up are we defeated? In their minds it would seem so.
Hey, at least there won’t be another attack there if they do build it.
It sucks to be a liberal when you run out of OPM (other people’s money.) I said that.
Never allow your enemy to control the semantics of a discussion
rivahmitch Tuesday, August 31st at 10:00AM EST (link)Call it what it is “The 9/11 Victory Mosque” in every public discussion or post.
Nixon was Right
gunsrus Tuesday, August 31st at 10:12AM EST (link)President Nixon recognized the inherent incompatibility of Islam and democracy when the Shah of Iran had to be restored.
Barrack Obama for a Bankrupt America!!!
Nixon was Right
dambama Tuesday, August 31st at 11:05AM EST (link)“President Nixon recognized the inherent incompatibility of Islam and democracy when the Shah of Iran had to be restored.”
It was Jimmy Carter, the 2nd worst President after Obama, who undermined the Shah and empowered the radical M’s.
We have been paying for it ever since. Imagine the mess we will have to clean up after Obama.
Carter used to make me miss Nixon
Wine Country Dog (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 3:03PM EST (link)0bama does that for me too.
Change we can step in!
woof!
I miss Reagan, Bushes and Clinton, in that order, before
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 3:10PM EST (link)I ever pine for a Carter, Ford or Nixon.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I was speaking only in the relative sense
Wine Country Dog (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 3:50PM EST (link)of Carter/Nixon without ranking any others. I shook hands with Nixon once and I still had my watch and all my fingers attached afterward.
Change we can step in!
woof!
I know and agree, but are you a Bulldog near the Braselton, Georgia vineyards? - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 6:31PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
No, I'm a conservative dog trying to educate the lefties in CA,
Wine Country Dog (Diary) Thursday, September 2nd at 4:45PM EST (link)a seemingly impossible task akin to pushing a boulder up a steep hill. Sometimes someone comes along and helps. Several people have come out of the vineyards to help these last few months, which is encouragement. The boulder is moving a little.
Change we can step in!
woof!
Radicalizing them?
Plumb_Bob (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 10:35AM EST (link)A 17-year-old who seeks out and joins radicals simply because he heard conversations in which Anglos argued against a mosque being built in lower Manhattan, is a 17-year-old who has been trained by his parents and his surrounding culture to become a radical. Normal 17-year-olds don’t react that way.
If you spend 17 years filling a mind with explosives and then someone random tosses a spark in his direction, the resulting explosion is not about the spark. (With apologies to Karl Barth, who said something similar that I can’t find at the moment.)
(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, “Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture,” at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)
We are Doomed if we allow muslims to integrate ...
dambama Tuesday, August 31st at 11:00AM EST (link)and become part of this society. Our mere objection to their domination of us will radicalize them further.
Watch this excellent expose on the GZM.
Bill Whittle: Ground Zero Mosque Reality Check
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg_iDPRud_c&feature=player_embedded
Islam is Not a Constitutional Religion
ncbro (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 11:30AM EST (link)It is a foreign government.
America needs someone to take guard of our constitution, start with the highest threat to it, and bit by bit reduce that threat and then go after another one.
I believe Islam is a seditious belief, that performs its function in taking over other governments very well. Have you ever known a government that Islam allowed to rule? Or an Islam that will honor (any) other constitutions other than it’s own? No No NO. We have been so PC in this nation for longer than I can remember and we are allowing Islam to be considered to be a religion under our constitution.
Well, this “PC” idea has never been tested. I believe it is time that this constitutional question comes before the COURTS OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL America. This is a sovereign nation and all our guards should be up to make sure of this.
Open all the books, expose the history of Islam and their conquest of nations. If they want to be here, pledge allegiance to everything this nation has stood for from the beginning. Unless the muslims renounce Islam, they never pledge to this nation. AND WE KNOW THEY WILL NEVER RENOUNCE ISLAM.
Therefore, Islam is unconstitutional, the mosque (muslims city hall) is unconstitutional, therefore the religion of Islam is unconstitutional because it is a government unto itself. A government is NOT a religion.
If they can't pledge allegiance to America ...
dambama Tuesday, August 31st at 12:34PM EST (link)They do not belong here. This muslim thing is no different than Communism or Naziism. World domination and complete submission by adherents, and death to the rest of us.
Is it bigoted to think this?
What "Conundrum"?
1689 Tuesday, August 31st at 1:30PM EST (link)I must be simple minded, I don’t see what the big puzzle or mystery is. Here’s The Truth: Several key core beliefs of Islam are utterly and forever irreconcilable with the values of Western Civilization and American Constitutional government.
Many believe the part of the Koran that commands that Sharia law must be incorporated into our civil law. Sorry, that would obviously violate the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. Many believe the part of the Koran that says non-believers must convert to Islam, pay a tax to show submission to Allah, or such non-believers must be killed. Well that’s obviously incompatible with the free-exercise clause, our cultural belief in freedom of religion, and of course the killing part is prohibited too. What about the part that says that it’s ok to lie to non-believers if it furthers Islam? That’s incompatible with a stable, peaceful honest society, that welcomes all peoples of different cultures (so long as they’re willing to obey, gasp!, the Eighth Commandment and Christianity’s golden rule).
It’s often been said in these blogs that Islam is still living in tribal 16th Century. Shouldn’t it be easy to see that those who embrace Islam would have a very difficult, if not impossible time, living in modern 20th Century society? The only “conundrum” is why liberal elites are willing to appease these groups here in the U.S. E.g., why is the federal government defending AIG’s sharia-compliant-finance program in Federal Court in Michigan? Why are we spending tax dollars to rebuild mosques in the middle east? Why? for votes at election time is all I can come up with.
Each of the states should have mandatory programs for immigrants and their children that teaches them about the core values of Western society, and which specifically reject the types of beliefs listed above — or we should just eliminate immigration from middle eastern countries. One of the two. If not, it’ll prove how cheaply we hold the values of Western Civilization, the best belief system in the world, one which will be lost someday soon if we don’t act.
We know Obama does not respect the Constitution ...
dambama Tuesday, August 31st at 1:49PM EST (link)Maybe Obama is not all that opposed to sharia law. Maybe he prefers the koran. He is not fighting this obscene mosque in Ground Zero, he wants it. Obama seems soft on sharia and opposed to the Constitution. This is not good.
The Conundrum is How
Locke (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 3:58PM EST (link)we can oppose the the mosque and other objectionable acts and beliefs of Muslims when they will kill us for it. It is not a real conundrum, but it is the one they are trying to present. So I read Streiff. I know how I, and I think most Redstaters, and indeed a majority of Americans would answer.
BTW Great post, Streiff, and lots of good comments.
A larger conundrum is what to do about Islam, consistent with our belief in freedom of religion.
BTW2 Eugene Volokh gets it:
“CAIR does have such aspirations [to be... seen as a responsible, mainstream institution]. And those aspirations are not advanced by attempts to prevent blasphemy and insult using warnings of violent Muslim retaliation ÷ and by attempts to partly shift (or at least broaden) the blame for such religious violence to include Americans who dare to provoke the Muslim extremists.”
http://volokh.com/2010/08/30/koran-burning-minister-and-council-on-american-islamic-relations-spokesman-play-into-each-others-hands/#more-36056
Nice piece, Streiff, and a stunning photo...
kestrel (Diary) Tuesday, August 31st at 9:24PM EST (link)…stunning in a “perfect storm” sort of way. After looking at that for awhile and reading everything here, I gotta go back to that baby rabbit photo from a few days ago…
All that needs to be said....
CBass Wednesday, September 1st at 12:17PM EST (link)http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/09/redstate_seriously_misses_the.php
ISLAM NEEDS TO REFORM URGENTLY!
luciandorus Thursday, September 2nd at 1:22PM EST (link)Islam has not developed as Judaism and Christianity have done through time. Christianity is an evolution of Judaism that has consolidated the 10 Commandments of Moses into one: “love thy neighbor as yourself,” and also removed the male circumcision ritual as a requirement for believing in One God. The Christian schism of 1054 between its Orthodox and Catholic branches was the culmination of arguments which had started in the 5th century, relating to the acceptance of the compatibility between religious and non-religious beliefs. The further development of science and economy in Europe during the 14th to 16th centuries, and the fact that some Popes took advantage of their positions, resulted in the CHRISTIAN REFORMATION movement of the 16th and 17th centuries. The intense industrialization of the world in the 19th and 20th centuries had generated new societal situations, which resulted in new Judaic and Christian denominations and also in the formal restating of spiritual belief concepts through the First and Second Vatican Councils (1890s & 1960s). This spiritual progress has been a continuing process of development accompanying and supporting human endeavors. On the other hand, it seems Islam has not developed in a similar manner since its inception in the 7th century, but has remained somehow stagnant; its perpetuation of the stoning to death condemnation is a perfect example. The 9/11/2001 attacks against the US seem to express very deep frustrations of Muslim men horrified by the idea that their societies are not creative partners in the forefront of present human development, and are going to have to give equal rights to women.