Being a moron should be a disqualification for a wide range of occupations. I think we can all agree that having morons as physicians is a bad thing. But morons are perfectly capable holding down useful employment, take for instance actors, sportscasters, and Keith Olbermann. It would seem that as a society we’ve determined that you can be both a moron and a politician without undercutting the republic to any great extent.
I’d like to add two additional occupations to the banned list: law enforcement officials and prosecutors. Now our system of government can only survive morons in those positions if chance doesn’t intervene and we end up with morons holding both those positions in the same jurisdiction. If you want a case study in what happens when you run afoul of a moron cluster, look no farther Vermillion County, Indiana.
When Sally Harpold bought cold medicine for her family back in March, she never dreamed that four months later she would end up in handcuffs.
Now, Harpold is trying to clear her name of criminal charges, and she is speaking out in hopes that a law will change so others won’t endure the same embarrassment she still is facing.
“This is a very traumatic experience,” Harpold said.
Harpold is a grandmother of triplets who bought one box of Zyrtec-D cold medicine for her husband at a Rockville pharmacy. Less than seven days later, she bought a box of Mucinex-D cold medicine for her adult daughter at a Clinton pharmacy, thereby purchasing 3.6 grams total of pseudoephedrine in a week’s time.
Those two purchases put her in violation of Indiana law 35-48-4-14.7, which restricts the sale of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, or PSE, products to no more than 3.0 grams within any seven-day period.
Point six grams. If Ms. Harpold had continued on this crime spree for a year she would have accumulated 30 grams, just a bit over an ounce, of illegal pseudophedrine, which is so illegal it’s sold legally over the counter at pharmacies all across Indiana. Thankfully, the county sheriff, Bob Spence, and the county prosecutor, Nina Alexander, were able to nip this developing drug lord in the bud and bring her career of criminality to a quick close.
Inarguably, meth is bad. I don’t think anyone, even fans of legalized drug use, disagrees with that premise. And the laws passed in the past few years limiting the legal purchase of cold medicines containing pseudophedrine serve a legitimate need. When rural Oklahoma convenience stores are selling tens of thousands of doses of cold medicine each week, logic tells you that something not quite kosher is going on.
The law, however, is not well served when a combination of Inspector Javert and Inspector Clouseau set out on an jihad to literally interpret a particular law.
Let’s start with the misuse of resources.
[Sheriff Bob Spence] explained that the process leading to Harpold’s arrest involved an officer checking area pharmacy purchase records, and coming up with about 40 purchases that violated the law.
Unless crime has been eradicated in Vermillion County, one would think that the sheriff’s department has other tasks it could be reasonably carrying out other than collecting pharmacy sales receipts, adding them up, and going all the way to the bottom of the list. How many purchases of potentially illegal cold medicine took place in the county? Who was the mathematical whiz entrusted with plotting all the purchases on a timeline and toting up the grams of pseudophedrine?
How about a lack of freakin common sense or sense of proportionality?
Harpold said she did go talk to the prosecutor about the situation, and Alexander offered her the deferral program, in which Harpold is required to pay the court costs, abide by all laws and not be arrested for 30 days. At the end of 30 days, the class-C misdemeanor will be erased from her record.
Alexander said she is working with Harpold about the charge, but the prosecutor asserts that Harpold did break the law with her purchases and is being held accountable.
Even stipulating the righteousness of the law, there has to be a sense of proportion in its enforcement if from no other standpoint than to simply demonstrate sanity. The reaction Harpold’s purchase generated from the criminal justice system (motto: there is no system, there is no justice, but it is criminal) is simply lunacy. You literally break the law when you go 66 in a 65. I’d be willing to bet good money that speeding laws aren’t usually enforced like that.
Now that she’s been arrested, Sheriff Bob has sympathy for her.
“If there’s any way we can help her, we will,” Spence said.
Probably a bit late for that, Sheriff. She’s been arrested and publicly humiliated.
And, of course, when one set of morons gets caught up in its self constructed web of imbecility, you know another moron in training is going to weigh in.
And Vigo County Sheriff Jon Marvel, who recently renewed efforts to track pseudoephedrine sales in the Wabash Valley, understands Harpold’s arrest is embarrassing for her.
“Sometimes mistakes happen,” Marvel said. “It’s unfortunate. But for the good of everyone, the law was put into effect.
No, Sheriff Marvel, there is a difference between a “mistake” and “premeditation.” A “mistake” would be arresting the wrong person. And what happened here wasn’t “for the good of everyone,” it was for the good of one sheriff’s department and one prosecutors office.
Do I really believe Spence and Alexander are diagnosable as morons? No. I believe they are a couple of bureaucrats who have set out to scab arrest statistics in order to make a case for more resources for their offices. Not much happens in a county the size of Vermillion County, Indiana and if you can turn it, on paper, into the Costco of meth production you’re sure to get a lot more money. To do this they have devoted time and effort to analyzing even minute purchases to make arrests. There is no doubt this is a conscious strategy because otherwise any responsible prosecutor would have decided that arresting a grandmother for purchasing 0.6 grams over the legal limit was idiocy.
What this kind on nonsense does in the long run is it discredits the law and it discredits the hard working non-morons in law enforcement and prosecutors offices nationwide.
We don’t know or care what party Sheriff Spence and Nina Alexander belong to we do know they owe the nation as well as Ms. Harpold an apology
KnightsofMalta
Dan Spencer
Moe Lane
Steve Maley
Dan McLaughlin
Caleb Howe
The CVS police
Maggie_in_Indiana (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 10:20AM EST (link)saved me from a simular situation last April. I was aware of the law but who knew you couldn’t buy two boxes of cold medicine for different ages at the same time. My grandson had a cold and my teen had a cold,nope couldn’t buy them both,had to have my sister buy one,which put her at half of dose needs for the 7 day period. And how do different stores know who bought what,ID numbers are logged with the purchase.
Meth is bad. Colds are miserable. exactly how much meth can be made by .6 grams? Stupid.
Maggie in Indiana
Under ideal conditions
Lammo (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 12:30PM EST (link).6 grams of pseudo makes .55 grams of meth (92% yield), or less than1/3 of a standard street sale amount (that being 1/16th of an ounce). Actual real world usage would be less than that.
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
I am afraid to ask just how you know all that! ':o)~ n/t
yoyo (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 12:45PM EST (link)….
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=============================
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I've actually cooked meth
Lammo (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 1:44PM EST (link)in training at the State Patrol Fire Academy. Spread out over a week we (25 cops, 5 firefighters, 2 prosecutors and 1 lab rat) did all of the stages under controlled, safe conditions. Final cook was done in full Tyvek suits, duct taped seams and zippers, double gloved, full face mask and air tank. One group did their final cook in 35 minutes!
No, we did not sample the product.
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
that could very well be correct
streiff (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 2:08PM EST (link)under, as you say, ideal conditions.
the manuals I’ve seen indicate that it takes 6 pounds of chemicals — including pseudophedrine — to make 1 pound of meth.
But the fact is that you aren’t going to acquire pseudophedrine in 0.6 gram increments if you are interested in commercial quantities and it would take a fairly sophisticated lab to process 0.6 grams as a stand alone quantity.
I think we all know what is going on here. They have some poor schmoe adding up sales receipts and they’re issuing arrest warrants for everyone who exceeds the 3g per 7 day purchase. What is notable in the story is that they don’t claim to have busted anyone really involved in manufacturing meth under their system.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I wonder who "schmoe"
Lammo (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 2:25PM EST (link)ticked off to get that assignment. I agree with you that this particualr arrest/prosecution is beyond a stretch. I think I’ve said as much in other comments on this thread. However, I believe that the laws putting restrictions on pseudo purchases have had an impact on local labs and that they are valid for public safety purposes.
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
there is absolutely no doubt about that
streiff (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 2:40PM EST (link)and I think I made that clear in the post.
If they think grandma is a threat, and I don’t automatically exclude grandmothers from being capable of criminal behavior, why didn’t they monitor purchases over several months and slam her for a felony? I think everyone knows the reason for that.
Having worked in bureaucracies of one kind or another for most of my life I’d be willing to bet a lot of money that they’re simply playing a game with their statistics. What they don’t really comprehend is that people who vote really don’t like this kind of nonsense and it could result in substantial limitations on their powers in the future.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Exactly.
Nick Haynes (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 6:38PM EST (link)There is nobody trying to use any reasonable amount of common sense, and that’s why these sort of decisions about whether to pursue charges should be handled, for lack of a better word, judiciously.
But the prosecutor saying that all he could do is enforce the law…that’s a B.S. cop-out. Prosecutors, no matter the jurisdiction, have a tremendous amount of leeway to decide what cases they will and will not prosecute. (That’s actually one of the reasons that, when I finish up law school, I would pick prosecution over defense if I go into criminal law) The only boss they are truly accountable to are the people of the jurisdiction, and prosecutors are elected because the people trust that they will use their wisdom, experience, and education and make the best calls for the jurisdiction. For their own sake, let’s hope the people of Vermillion County take that under consideration at this guy’s next “performance review”.
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When you graduate from Law School
philforest Sunday, October 4th at 10:33PM EST (link)you’re going to realize that prosecutors, as well as defense attorneys, are made different by a bunch of things. As a prosecutor, you will have the ability to drop the case against your accused if you decide you can’t win the case. The defense attorney doesn’t have that option, and he/she’s committed to defending the case, even if he/she knows the client is guilty.
Becoming a prosecutor is, I think, a cop-out.
Take The Law Away From Them
farstar99 (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 12:43PM EST (link)When the government abuses our trust, it should lose the privilege of governing. This law was intended to combat drug manufacturing, but if they’re going to administer the law this badly, they should suffer.
And yet, there is no accountability.
This* only obtains
persiflage Tuesday, September 29th at 10:23AM EST (link)when government is small and has limited powers, and has effective checks on the accumulation of power. Under Leviathan government…not so much.
*you can be both a moron and a politician without undercutting the republic to any great extent…
“A republic, if you can keep it…” – B. Franklin
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jimmuy8 (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 10:26AM EST (link)That should be the good citizens response.
Perhaps if we passed a law that all morons...
rcov092 (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 10:28AM EST (link)are immediately seized and a red M imprinted on their forehead my vote would be for these 2 to be the first assclowns so inflicted. I think they might have a far different view of things.
No doubt they had no “intent” to inflict said punishment on someone so clearly trapped in a fools rush, but they “did break the law and we would just be holding them accountable” (for being morons).
“sometimes mistakes happen…but the law is for the good of everyone” so we are clear which morons to steer clear of…or to make sure we remove all the warning labels in their house to let the problem sort itself out (seems like I have seen that somewhere before)
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That's the problem with trying to use a
Warrior (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 10:52AM EST (link)juris prudence solution to every problem. One size does not fit all. I call it the Andy Griffith rule.
At some point, common sense and good judgement must prevail. However, in an age when every judgement is likely to be second guessed by some smartassed lawyer, personal judgement can no longer be relied upon. Someone will always question the motives of the judge and assign an ugly, ulterior motive (racism, sexism, favotitism, etc,) to his or her decision.
A great book on this topic is Philip K. Howard’s, “The Death of Common Sense”.
“Racial criteria are irrational, irrelevant, [and] odious to our way of life.” — Thurgood Marshall for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in the 1950 Supreme Court case of McLaurin v. Oklahoma
Tepidly taking the other side
Gengisdon (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:00AM EST (link)Streiff, as a prosecutor, I can’t argue at all with the premise that my office is definitely a position where morons are a clear and present danger to justice and lawful society.
And I’m perfectly certain that there are at least a few people who think I’m one of the morons – comes with the territory,
Since I’m not an Indiana prosecutor, I can’t speak to their laws. But I will say, in my experience trying to combat meth, laws like the one grandma was cited for are very useful in keeping the total amount of psuedoephederine and other precursors available to the general population lower than without it. And I have seen cases where grandma is in fact buying boxes here and there that cousin Eddy is aggregating to make up his next batch of homebrew. Are those the facts of this case? Doesn’t sound like it. Could the prosecutor have done something different, like dismiss it outright? Certainly. But is it as egregious a violation of common sense that you’ve made it out to be? Not in my opinion. If the legislature wanted to make this type of crime an intent based crime, they could have and should have. Perhaps there is where the final blame lies.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
when legislatures pass laws
streiff (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:10AM EST (link)there is usually a presumption that reasonable people are going to be involved in the enforcement of the laws (and I think you know me well enough to know I’m not a big fan of legislatures).
She was 0.6 grams over the legal limit. She didn’t have a history of lots of small purchases, and we have to presume that if the Vermillion County sheriff’s office had enough time and energy to calculate the pseudophedrine in the two packages she bought that they undoubtedly knew of her previous purchases.
I’m also assuming you know how many cold capsules you have to cook down to get a commercially viable quantity of meth. There are some surprisingly detailed websites out there — just for fun, of course — and it would seem that if she was buying it for some one to convert that that person would have had to hire an army of grandma’s to accomplish his nafarious purpose.
It is always useful, and reasonable, to blame the legislature. But this simply stinks of a cow town sheriff’s department and prosecutor padding their “meth arrest” statistics in a ploy to get more money.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I'm a big fan of prosecutorial discretion
Gengisdon (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:30AM EST (link)Not surprisingly. So can’t argue with you there.
The prosecutor offer the “deferral option,” which sounds like a dismissal on condition of no further violation. Now, I’m not so keen on court costs being lumped in there, but that’s a good CYA offer otherwise – if in fact grandma is not involved at all in bad things, then she won’t pick up other charges and this charge disappears rather quickly. If, on the other hand, grandma is snowing you, when she gets popped again you haven’t lost anything because you can reinstate the charge. If you say, “sorry grandma, our bad” and toss the charge entirely, then grandma actually does get nailed again, then you face the “stupid prosecutor misses opportunity to stop meth crime when snowed by grandma” headline in the local paper.
I tend to view laws by utility, in the whole “do we do more harm than good” approach. Slippery slope, acknowledgedly – how much bad do you derive from grandma being charged versus the good of strict adherence to the law in the hopes of stopping meth at the beachhead at every opportunity. On one hand, meth=very bad in the whole. On the other hand, non-intentional purchaser with no record being charged with crime=a very specific bad to a specific individual. That is, unquestionably, where discretion comes into play.
One other comment – the “cow towns” are where the battle is being fought against meth. Maybe you’re right, that they’re trying to drive numbers up to show a need for more funding, although I didn’t read facts pointing either direction on that hypothesis. But I would actually be more suspicious of this charge/process of charging if it occurred in a metro/suburb/exurb than if it were occurring in the boonies.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
I tend to view laws by utility, in the whole “do we do more harm than good” approach.
RoguePolitics (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:50AM EST (link)By that statement you have to acknowledge the entire drug war is a failure since more people use and have access to drugs now than before the drug war was started. And for less money. Now meth. Invented originally in rural areas as a cheaper and legally safer way to get high.
Our prisons are already overcrowded with drug offenders; how will we have enough room for the “war on the uninsured” that we will need to fight soon. The drug war was started by the same progressives in the 1930′s who will now be prosecuting the uninsured. How long before Rudy the prosecutor is showing the left the right way to prosecute a war on healthcare abusers?
When we recognized alcohol prohibition facilitated a massive increase in organized crime we scrapped it. The so called drug war is no different. It is a failure that has primarily resulted in a massive intrusion on our liberties and created who knows how many rich drug lords. It needs to be scrapped.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
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Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
I still don't buy that argument
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:58AM EST (link)Organized crime is also involved with murder for hire, child prostitution, and illegal arms sales.
I’m not sure that helping organized crime find a new market is a reason to repeal a law.
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It isn't the only reason, if it were I would agree.
RoguePolitics (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 12:57PM EST (link)Remember the left, in the guise of safety, started this entire drug war back during FDR’s reign. So it is at least suspect on that basis.
Then look at the facts; less than 1% use before the drug war has translated into 6% use as a result of the drug war.
In capitalist terms. I have a product with a high profit margin.
I am going to use all of my ingenuity to build a customer base in order to increase profit.
I am also going to use my talent to eliminate my competition. This means we have “pushers” and drug wars. They call them pushers for a reason.
I saw a documentary once that discussed cocaine. The guy pointed out that a dose of coke at the time had a street value of say $15 but cost about $.10 to produce in a medically pure form. The $15 is the profit realized from running in the black market.
If we legalized coke, and did not subsidize users, the profit would be nonexistent. Marijuana would be even cheaper since anybody could grow what is really a pretty vigorous weed.
Regarding crimes people commit to pay for their habit, throw them in jail for the crime committed. But really I don’t think that would happen. It wasn’t happening before the drug war in any significant way.
There is no constitutional basis for the federal war on drugs. Bad things happened before the drug war and will continue to happen after.
That is liberty.
States could do it but without federal largesse they probably wouldn’t.
You have probably seen the Taliban is funding their arms purchases using the profits from heroin sales. How much of illegal arms sales would go away if drugs were legalized? Not just the Taliban but turf wars in the US and South America for example?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/drugs-for-guns-how-the-afghan-heroin-trade-is-fuelling-the-taliban-insurgency-817230.html
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
Sure there are other reasons
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 1:04PM EST (link)But the connection with organized crime is not a reason to legalize something. That’s my point.
It’s doubly laughable when you make it about the Taleban.
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It is just one factor
RoguePolitics (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 2:01PM EST (link)I went through a bunch in the last post but really it is like a pro and con list.
Organized crime is one item on the con side of the list.
So is funding the Taliban.
So is increased drug use. (yes it might not fall off after but it definitely grew during the drug war)
Grandma getting arrested.
Other crime being ignored.
It’s not constitutional
About the only thing in the pro side of the list is good intentions.
Good intentions is a worse reason than organized crime. That is why liberals ostensibly do everything.
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
Funny Gengisdon
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:12AM EST (link)Your signature seems to sum up the situation, from my perspective. The cop and the prosecutor each had a choice.
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True
Gengisdon (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:35AM EST (link)And as I’m sure you’ve noticed, I’m not too overzealous in their defense.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
It just seems to me
baserunr (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 12:02PM EST (link)that the receipts are enough to provide for the acquisition of a search warrant. We have a technical violation of the law, that should meet the threshold required to issue a search warrant. Was one obtained? If you search granny’s residence, and you discover a meth lab, bingo! The law works, the cops and DA are vigilant, and the Legislature is full of folks with genius IQ’s. Otherwise, this is all unnecessary. No need for arrest, bargaining with the DA, and national publicity where the DA and the PD look ridiculous. You have to believe that folks with no malevolent intent will be occasionally snared by these types of regulations. There just has to be a better way to handle this. If I was on a jury, I don’t think I would find her guilty. Juries can nullify, just ask OJ!
“The day you think you know it all is the day your trouble starts.”
So, Gengisdon, where's the proof the law works?
Raven (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 12:24PM EST (link)It’s not here in PA or over in VA. So WHERE is the data that shows Meth production has declined in the, what? 2? 3? years since these laws have taken effect?
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
It's right here (link below) in WA
Lammo (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 1:07PM EST (link)I don’t know where gengisdon is but as a drug prosecutor in Washington, I have seen first hand the impact of pseudo limits on local labs. The stats for WA are here: http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/spills/response/drug_labs/County_Table_1990_to_2008.pdf
These are DOE clan lab clean up numbers that show a statewide high of 1890 in 2000 dropping to 184 in 2008. In my county, Spokane, we went from 248 in 2000 down to 3 in 2008. 248 to 3. That’s success in my book.
FWIW – - a couple of other points on this thread
I know people who couldn’t survive a 30 day deferral program if they were locked in a monastery. This particular Indiana grandmother sound like she could probably make it through. Deferrals around here run a minimum of 6 months, usually a year. So, although I would probably dismiss this outright myself, a 30 day deferral isn’t a bad deal.
A similar routine example here in WA is that it is a misdemeanor to have controlled substances out of their original container (RCW 69.50.309). Putting your Oxycontin in those daily dose trays is a crime. We get people all the time who have one or two such pills loose in their pocket when they are searched during an arrest. The police always refer these for felony possession. When the person brings in their prescription we routinely dismiss the felony possession case and do not pursue the misdemeanor.
In the criminal justice system the prosecuting attorney has a tremendous amount of power. From where I sit, the most important question a prosecutor should ask in deciding whether to do something he can do is whether he should. Prosecutorial discretion, properly exercised, can make or break a local justice system (and, as we are starting to see with AG Holder can have national impact as well).
For those out there who want to scrap the “War on Drugs” and, presumably, make it all legal, I have just one thing to say: You go first. Legalize these poisons in your home town and see how that works out for you.
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
Kowalski
Lammo (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 1:17PM EST (link)One of my favorite things to do when I buy pseudoephedrine is to ask the clerk where I can find the coffee filters and the gas line anti-freeze. They start to tell me and then their training kicks in. Having seen my badge next to my ID they know I’m pulling their leg. It’s a good “Stupid Prosecutor Trick” but I wouldn’t recommend it to the general, non-badge carrying public.
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
So brand the M on the legislature as well ...
texasjay Wednesday, September 30th at 9:14AM EST (link)Sorry, but having been a prosecuting attorney [not in Indiana], I would have bitch-slapped the cops for wasting my time with this one.
And now I have to go look up that law to see what the elements are. Thanks heaps.
Sorry, not buying it.
texasjay Wednesday, September 30th at 9:27AM EST (link)She had to “knowingly or intentionally” violate that law. I wonder if she even knew the quantity of ephedrine in those two products? This would be a fun case to defend.
This is a stupid law. You can’t tell me that in a cold and flu season there isn’t a potential to purchase more than one product, especially if there is more than one person in the house, and there are adults and children.
The record check component written into the statute should be setting off alarms, too, for much the same reason that the Patriot Act is a bad idea: search and seizure and self imcrimination issues are called into play.
But has there actually been a reduction in meth?
WarEagle01 (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:02AM EST (link)Somehow I doubt it. I would be curious to see if this law has done anything to reduce the amount of meth on the street. There have to be other sources of supply besides drug stores.
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...
dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:29AM EST (link)When it comes to drugs I think we have seen that laws do effectively nothing in curtailing use. If you look at any country that has gone from a “prohibition” stance to decriminalisation or outright legalisation you almost always see a drop in use, and even criminal activity.
When Holland decriminalised pot use went down…. When the US legalised alcohol again crime dropped, and cases people dying from poisoned alcohol basicly dissipated overnight.
All these laws do is criminalise otherwise law abiding citizens…. Real criminals know how to get their psudoephedrine without raising any red flags… the people who get hurt by these rules are mothers, and grandmothers.
Nice shift of the goalposts there
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 12:08PM EST (link)I don’t think you can seriously tell me alcohol use in America dropped when prohibition was repealed.
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“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Perhaps not, but it didn't Increase
Raven (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 12:27PM EST (link)However, we’re not talking about legalizing pot (whose medical benefits are still arguable) in this thread. Or any other harmful drug.
We’re talking about the harm that criminalization of Pseudophedrine, the only effective decongestant on the market, has caused.
And for what? What has it accomplished?
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
"we?"
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 1:03PM EST (link)No, dave_in_atl, in the comment I replied, to, specifically was talking about legalizing drugs.
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“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Dave_in_atl didn't understand that it had nothing to do with Pot
Richard Mullins (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 3:06PM EST (link)but a substance that’s highly regulated in Europe.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
Rmullins Pics
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
Dave, like most anti drug war people, is an idiot
Raven (Diary) Wednesday, September 30th at 11:48AM EST (link)And I was trying to exclude him from “We” and bring the thread a little bit more on track.
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
Raven, you must forgotten that pseudophedrine
Richard Mullins (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 3:04PM EST (link)is highly regulated in Europe as well. It’s no accident that the bill that the congress a few years back was similar to the one in Europe. So the state law in Indiana is similar to the one passed by congress some years back. It’s fairly much the same nationwide.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
Rmullins Pics
Rpmullins Twitter
Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
I was unaware of it
Raven (Diary) Wednesday, September 30th at 11:50AM EST (link)However, I am not surprised. It IS Europe, after all. They seem to like controlling everything you do every minute you do it.
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
No, you are wrong. It isn't the mothers or grandmothers
Danielle Davis (ocleverone) (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 4:26PM EST (link)It is the youngest of our society.
You talk about prohibition, I offer a staggering increase of bing drinking by high schoolers, college students and young adults. The statistics are not on the decline.
http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/quickstats/binge_drinking.htm
You make is sound like legalizing this drug is no big whoop – well it is. You see, you legalize this and you begin a slippery slope of “it’s okay, it’s legal”. Those who have criminal tendencies have more of open door to meth and those people prey on young people. Being a Mother of younger kids, I can darn well assure you that I don’t want to take a chance of your shakey premise.
To me, “consensus” seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects … There are still people in my party who believe in “consensus” politics. I regard them as Quislings, as traitors … I mean it. — Margaret Thatcher
Probably not
Lammo (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 1:13PM EST (link)In my county local labs were probably never more than 10 to 15% of the supply, if even that. They were, however, an enormous danger to public safety. My firefighter friends tell me that they had to assume that any structure fire they responded to was caused by a lab until they proved otherwise. The dangers from a lab fire are much different from a “normal” fire – - nasty chemical byproducts and dangerous gasses with a high potential for explosion. So, for my money, suppression of local labs is a worthy and necessary cause.
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
It did work in Oregon
JoeG Tuesday, September 29th at 4:49PM EST (link)It’s a real pain in the keister here because Oregon requires a prescription to get pseudo-ephedrine.
The labs are GONE. No reduction in meth, but the labs have pretty well disappeared.
Common sense is a common casualty of the War on Some Drugs (n/t)
Finrod (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:10AM EST (link).
Let’s get down to brass tacks here. How much for the ape?
Hear, Hear! (nt)
larueladue (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:19AM EST (link)And here I've always thought that...
RedBeard Tuesday, September 29th at 11:17AM EST (link)…public officials were working for the good of the public. My bad, as the cool kids say.
This takes idiocy a step farther than arresting a kid with an ear ache for bringing aspirin to school.
Idiocracy isn’t just a movie any longer.
Standard-bearer for grouchy curmudgeonry since, oh, 1975 or so.
At long last have we no decency?
RoguePolitics (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 11:31AM EST (link)At what point are we going to realize the failed war on drugs has encroached massively on our liberties?
In 1930 there were between 300,000 and 1M people who smoked dope in a nation of 100M. Less than 1% of the population. Now after 75+ years of drug war, more than 40% of the population have tried it, 15% used in the last year and 6% use it regularly. If that isn’t failure what would failure look like?
And it is not just the drug war look at the guy who was arrested for going to the bathroom on an airplane.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45298,00.html
Now yesterday we see it again. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/authorities-halted-a-plane-from-taking-off-from-los-angeles-international-airport-and-arrested-two-men-on-board-after-they-be.html
I guess he forgot to ask for his bathroom pass from the hall monitor?
When the FAA, NTSB or DOT “test” security they are able to get 90% of the guns and bomb materials through. Even when they tipoff TSA. But they have been pretty successful at stopping people from going potty.
If I get any response to this it will be on the lines of “we have got to keep everybody safe.”
The federal government doesn’t have the ability to keep us safe from ourselves. The closest anybody came to preventing 911 was Todd Beamer, private citizen and think what he could have done if he had been armed. Instead they will keep arresting Grandma for buying cold medicine. And for those who say this isn’t a federal case, where do you think these idiot laws come from. Who funds all off this nonsense with block grants, etc.
Ben Franklin never said those who would trade a little liberty for a little security deserve neither liberty or security.
He said “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
This isn’t just about national defense or drug use; it applies to healthcare, drug laws, gun laws, the TSA, even the license plate on your car. Cities are now using cameras to track every single person coming or going by their license plate. If we are safer with a license plate on our car think how much safer we would be if we stamped our number on our forehead.
Jefferson said almost exactly the same as Franklin when he wrote in the VA resolutions “Resolved … that it would be a dangerous delusion were a confidence in the men of our choice to silence our fears for the safety of our rights: that confidence is everywhere the parent of despotism — free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence;”
Or in a letter “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it.”
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
I afraid to post this...
monstermom (Diary) Tuesday, September 29th at 2:46PM EST (link)But I’ve run into the same problem, though I’ve found a workaround that keeps me out of handcuffs.
I have allergies and my Dr proscribes Zyrtec-D. You can’t buy a full 30 day supply of Zyrtec -D because it exceeds the maximum allowable. So you have to buy it in 15 day packs.
When My kids get colds I given them plain old Sudafed. But, because I have to buy Zyrtec-D for myself, I can’t buy Sudafed for them.
So I just make a regular habit of buying Sudafed. Since I buy Zyrtec-D every two weeks in the between weeks I buy a box of Sudafed and I make sure I have at least one full box of 1 week of Sudafed on hand.
Yes, it’s a pain in the butt. Yes, it’s probably illegal or pretty darn close. Yes, it means I can’t buy the medicine I need when I need it. Yes, I hope to G-d the police aren’t monitoring this forum……
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. – George Washington
The limit includes perscription drugs?
JoeG Tuesday, September 29th at 4:51PM EST (link)Stupid, just plain stupid..
prescriptions?
astrolite Wednesday, September 30th at 9:54AM EST (link)The police want to see the prescriptions? First = none required for cold medicine! Second= You give them to the druggist, and he keeps them—-he doesn’t give them back!
Lawmakers, Not Critical Thinkers
live2eng Wednesday, September 30th at 11:11AM EST (link)The root CAUSE of this problem is in the flawed thinking of the lawmakers in the first place which allowed the flowed execution of it. The lawmaker made a certain amount unlawful to purchase in the flowed hope that unlawful use would be stopped.
What would be more effective, as stated by some here, would be to monitor sales above this level. Perhaps have a person placed on a list, once their purchase amounts exceeded this level. At that point they could be mailed a notice of being listed with a return post card with space to explain the purchases. This could also list the dangers and consequences of improper use.
Meth cookers would avoid such things like cockroaches avoid light, except the dumb ones who would rack up post cards. It would also make Grandma think twice about keeping strong cold medicines for common colds or in anticipation of colds, for the grandkids.
Who sponsored this legislation?
claims1 Wednesday, September 30th at 1:34PM EST (link)Being a Georgia native sure puts me in the category of “don’t throw stones”, but after reading this story, my first thought was that oft-repeated, but true, expression ” YOU JUST CAN’T FIX STUPID”