“If we do the work that we can do in this country, the work that we will do when John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk again. Get up out of that wheelchair and walk again.”
–John Edwards
The incoming Obama administration transition team has appointed Jonathan Moreno of the University of Pennsylvania as the head of the President’s Council on Bioethics Review Team.
Dr. Moreno is strongly in favor or embryonic stem cell research (ESCR) and opposed to President Bush’s policy in that area and in this position he will be able to effectively end restrictions on federal funding of ESCR.
Lest anyone be laboring under the misapprehension that this is about science or betrays a hostility towards science, they should think again.
As to the science, to date ESCR has been the most overhyped area of biomedical research with its successes painfully rare and its failures of staggering proportions. When balanced against research involving adult stem cells and cord blood stem cells, especially as neither of which bears the ethical baggage of ESCR, ESCR looks like nothing more than a latter day Philosoper’s Stone.
If you wish to understand the drive for ESCR, you need only follow the money. Billions of federal research dollars are potentially at stake, dollars which would flow nearly exclusively to major university medical research programs. Two of these institutions, Stanford and Johns Hopkins, have attacked Bush’s ethical considerations as, get this, unethical because the excepted ESC lines don’t pass the guidelines those institutions have developed, in a rather transparent attempt to artificially reduce the number of available ESC lines below the level of viability.
This flow of federal cash has become more critical to ESCR because venture capital is drying up, not only because of the financial crisis but because there has been so little progress.
As I said, people are policy. The appointment of Dr. Moreno to this position means the existing ESCR regulations will be overturned. And in the hope of making Christopher Reeves’s everywhere walk again we will siphon on increasingly scarce research dollars on a scientific dead end which has no other rational objective but to stick its finger in the eye of the pro-life movement.
I can see how Doug Kmiec was able to tout an Obama administration as a good choice for pro-lifers.
Daniel Horowitz
Neil Stevens
Steve Maley
Jake Walker
How about a little "Equal Opportunity"
cookcountyconservative (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:55AM EST (link)*(AP – 09/07/2008) Researchers hope to one day extract stem cells from testicles that could be directed to grow into all kinds of tissues to repair everything from a damaged heart to brains destroyed by Alzheimer’s to insulin-producing cells to cure diabetes. *
Question
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 11:59AM EST (link)Won’t the cells being used come from unfertilized eggs never used for in-vitro that would have been thrown away anyway? It is completely unethical to use embryonic cells for this purpose only, but if the cells are coming from eggs that would be thrown in the garbage then why not put them to use in research? It is a painfully slow process, but its that one rare breakthrough that is necessary in order to be able to cure terrible diseases like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s or paralysis. Why would it be ethical to throw the unfertalized eggs away, but unethical to use these same eggs for research?
ouch..lol
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 12:01PM EST (link)n/t
testicle cells replacing brain cells
streiff (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 12:02PM EST (link)have the cause of several misadventures in my life. I’m not sure this therapy should be made widely available.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I'm not sure about the science
itsonlywords (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 12:04PM EST (link)But I think that the cells come from embryos that were never implanted, at least that’s what the name implies. I don’t support ESCR. I’m all for the testicle thing, though.
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audientor ito. ~Virgil
Do not give in to evil, but proceed evermore boldly against it.
not clear on what you mean
streiff (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 12:05PM EST (link)ESCR is “embryonic stem cell research.” Embryonic means it has something to do with “embryos.”
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Right.
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 12:15PM EST (link)So let me clarify. When a woman goes in for in-vitro they usually take out a lot more eggs than are needed. She winds up getting pregnant (usually) and there are many extra blank eggs that are simply thrown away. Its these eggs (Embryonic Stem Cells) that researchers want to use in order to do stem cell research. Eggs that would literally be thrown away (unless donated by the mother to another woman). So scientists want to use these eggs for stem cell research. It would be unethical to harvest eggs primarily for this use, but I don’t see the ethical problem with using eggs that would be thrown in the garbage. See what I’m saying?
wait..
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 12:22PM EST (link)I think I may be wrong here….embryonic stem cells are:
“Embryonic stem cells, as their name suggests, are derived from embryos. Specifically, embryonic stem cells are derived from embryos that develop from eggs that have been fertilized in vitro—in an in vitro fertilization clinic—and then donated for research purposes with informed consent of the donors. They are not derived from eggs fertilized in a woman’s body. The embryos from which human embryonic stem cells are derived are typically four or five days old and are a hollow microscopic ball of cells called the blastocyst. The blastocyst includes three structures: the trophoblast, which is the layer of cells that surrounds the blastocyst; the blastocoel, which is the hollow cavity inside the blastocyst; and the inner cell mass, which is a group of approximately 30 cells at one end of the blastoco”
I'm still trying to follow your logic
streiff (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 12:22PM EST (link)because what you’re describing has nothing to do with ESCR in general or this story in particular.
And I’m disinclined to participate in a threadjack of my own story.
It this interests you, write a diary on it. Otherwise, cease and desist.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
See above..
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 12:28PM EST (link)Basically there are extra implanted embryos that will not develop. The doctor implants more than are necessary, because many implanted embryos usually fail. (Many implantations are the reason why some in-vitro mothers tend to have 4, 6, or 8 kids during on pregnancy). I guess I don’t see the ethical problem to using an embryo for research that will fail.
so now you're talking about
streiff (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 12:37PM EST (link)embryos instead of unfertilized eggs.
The objection to research on unimplanted embryos is the same as the objection to research or fetuses and was addressed exhaustively before President Bush put the current policy in place. I’m more than a little unsure what you could add to that discussion.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
ECO...let's take your thoughts to a logical conclusion....
Attack Mode (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 12:51PM EST (link)If an egg is used to create an embryo and that embryo is deemed to be a failure you would say it should be used for research since it would end up in the trash anyhow. My first question is whether or not you trust the “scientist” to correctly identify “failed” embryos and further if you trust them to not purposefully create a “failed” embryo with the ulterior motive of using it for research, being the end goal all along.
Further, on the ethical question, it would not be a leap too far to conclude that the gov’t, in the name of science, would also be allowed to determine the fitness or failure of any given person at any stage of life and then further decide that, for the sake of argument, the black youth are doomed to failure and therefore we should, for the greater good, be allowed to experiment on them to further our knowledge of scientific breakthroughs. After all would it not be unethical not to?
These ideas were tried before in the eugenics movement and this, although started in America, ended in Nazi Germany and the extermination of millions of Jews and other less than desirable types, all in the name of science. Science, without the respect of life, is easily bent towards the evil passions of man.
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
Are people a means or and ends?
The_Gadfly (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 1:03PM EST (link)Are embryos cancers or people?
Variously phrased, these are the two essential questions in the abortion debate, and by extension, the ESRC debate.
In the starkest example, if people can be only a means, and you have someone who is suffering from a medical condition (not self-inflicted) in which the liver is failing, it would be ethical to create and grow a matched donor (person) for the sole purpose of removing its liver to transplant to the person whose liver was failing. Now I and most other people, would be appalled at that suggestion because the matched donor is another person and we regard it as immoral to randomly kill one person for the sole purpose of chopping bits of him out to give to another. So it seems reasonable that people are not a means. And therefore for the most part (with notable exceptions like Peter Singer) the pro-abortion advocates don’t pursue this line.
The next question is whether an embryo is a human being or a cancer (or if you prefer, a non-malign but none the less unnecessary clump of cells growing in another person). If it is not a human being, there is no moral cause to oppose its removal on any grounds. If on the other hand, it is a human being, you are back to chopping up one human being so another one can live, whether or not the embryo would otherwise have grown to full size or not.
I have personally always regarded ESCR as our modern equivalent of the Dilgar episode of Babylon 5. In that episode a Dilgar (B5′s equivalent of the Nazi’s and the Khemr Rouge rolled into one) created a serum which would restore full health and youth to anyone who took the serum. Having presented the proof that the serum works, the Dilgar reveals its nefarious purpose in giving us the wonder serum: the only way to make it is to kill people by the dozens to make a single dose of the serum, and you need to take repeated doses of the serum. ESCR isn’t about healing the Christopher Reeve’s of the world no matter how much proponents claim it is; it’s about creating a “moral good” to justify abortion: The baby is being aborted anyway, why not use the cells for some good purpose? You’ll notice that if you replace ‘baby’ with ‘embryo,’ you have your exact argument for using the spare embryos from the in vitro fertilization procedure.
The problem is, what happens if the research succeeds?
Next93 (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 1:10PM EST (link)Suppose someone comes up with a therapy for, say alzheimers (sp?) that requires a constant injection of embryonic stem cells. Ask yourself two questions:
1) How long will this therapy be able to make do with the “spare” embryos from fertility clinics? Alternatively, how long will it be before fertility clinics discover that they need to fertilize say, 20 eggs from each client, and “just happen” to make a profitable sideline selling off the “spare” embryos. Or as another alternative, how long until poor women start using thier uterus’s (uteri?) as a money maker, dropping into planned parenthood once a month for a D&C and a check?
2) Do we REALLY want a situation in which traffiking in human life is the only thing keeping the most self-indulgent generation in history from sinking into well-deserved oblivion?
Obama was The One in 2008.
He’ll be a BIGGER one in 2012.
Polarization
Palinpal Monday, November 17th at 1:26PM EST (link)A magazine cover from a few years ago showed Barack Obama’s face in a sea of purple. The hope was that he would transcend party lines.
Not so.
His extremist positions put him at odds even with the liberal illuminati of his own party.
The stem cell issue, much like the abortion problem, are important not because they motivate a Falwell-esque base, but because they represent the frontier of human rights – something the Republican party has been passionate about since the days of slavery.
The new President-Elect and his leftist cronies will not unify the nation – take a look at county-by-county tallies – they are polarizing it.
The last thing the Republican party needs to do in the next four years is to play the moderate.
gotcha..
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 1:28PM EST (link)I’m not very up on the debate. I’m inferring it becomes a slippery slope type problem. Hopefully they can continue to do good work with adult skin cells. I think they came out with some research a little while back where they were able to create viable stem cells from skin cells.
To play devil’s advocate: What is your stance on the fact that some embryos do not “take”? Do you feel this is simply nature taking its course (if you want to broaden nature to include in-vitro pregnancies) and that man interfering with an embryo that would fail is simply unethical even though it won’t survive?
Good Points
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 1:42PM EST (link)Since this is something “above my pay-grade” and I’m guessing yours, I’m going to defer to the abilities of the best minds in science and state that they can verify which are taking and which are failing. I do not see why this would be extraordinarily difficult since it is easy to differentiate between developing and not developing cells.
As for whether or not they would purposefully create embryos for the research I would greatly hope not. Again, since all of this is speculative, I’m assuming here that the scientist is taking only “failed” embryos and is ethical in that he is not implanting more than he is supposed to.
Yes it would be unethical to start categorizing which life is worth more than other life and the fact that our laws do not recognize fetuses as “human life” would enable a governmental organization to make these distinctions outside of the Equal Protections of the Constitution. Good point.
I feel that your analogy to Nazis would be the end of a “slippery slope,” that is to say that it would happen if what you posited previously also occurs and probably many other “unethical” acts in the process.
Assuming, arguendo, that everything is done in an ethical manner. The scientists aren’t implanting more than they are supposed to. They aren’t differentiating amongst the races and so on. They are simply gathering the “failed” embryos that would have been trashed (excuse the bluntness) what is the ethical dilemma in using these to further research that could greatly improve existing life and future life?
Of course ESCs have had little success
I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 1:44PM EST (link)That’s what happens when you cut funding to a line of research. Blaming that lack of results on the ESCR itself is backwards.
Again this isn’t that complicated-
the vast majority of basic research is done on the government’s tab. Why? Because basic research yields no money. Applied research is where companies live, but applied research only exists once the basic research is done.
Basic research is almost entirely done in the national laboratories or university laboratories (mostly the latter). Until just last month I worked for Intel in one of he most advanced materials analysis labs in the world (no exaggeration). We spent more than a billion dollars every year on R&D. Not more than a tiny tiny handful of that could be considered basic research (a few very far reaching and speculative components research projects). What we did was build off of the basic research done at universities across the world. Almost every year the world’s fastest transistors were built in university labs (example) not ours. We took what they did and made it commercially viable.
If you turn off federal funds for basic research you essentially kill that line of development because nobody else can or will step up.
SO can we please drop this false argument that ESCs don’t live up to the potential of ASCs? The fact is that the science suggests they are more useful, and we will only know for sure if we get funding to pursue the research.
If you want to argue against ESCR on moral grounds, feel free. But arguing against it on utilitarian grounds is bull.
Non-embryonic stem cell research
Uma Richie (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 1:47PM EST (link)has produced successful medical treatment for humans using bone marrow and umbilical cord blood. Research on skin cells, wisdom teeth, breast milk, and menstrual discharge has been promising. I guess from above, I can add testicular research to the list too.
As for your devil’s advocate question, if it would be unethical to implant an embryo inside the womb because you fear the baby may not live to full term, it would also be unethical to make a baby the old fashioned way because in the end, everybody dies.
Fun with government dollars
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 1:54PM EST (link)An imagined conversation
We’re cutting your funding. You haven’t produced anything.
Well of course I didn’t produce anything, you cut my funding!
So if we restore it, you can promise us… what?
Nothing, it’s basic research.
Shoudln’t we be concerned about fraud?
Of course not. Peer review.
The same peer review that denied now-standard theories like continental drift, while letting by the widespread fraud in cloning research?
Yes. We caught them didn’t we? Besides, the research was fake, but accurate.
What has been done to fix this problem of spotty peer review in cloning-related research, such that we should pour more money into it?
Why do you hate science? You’re just a theocratic bigot.
No, seriously, why should we fund it?
Because then layabouts who waste time with mental meanderings, and particularly politically-motivated meanderings, and who can’t produce anything meaningful will be in trouble!
RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
little different
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 1:59PM EST (link)You seem to imply that the embryos being used were viable and have been taken out (aborted) for the sole purpose of research. What I’m saying is why not use the embryos that have failed or essentially have died on their own for research? We use cadavers for research?
I feel that you can separate this issue from the issue of abortion, because these embryos weren’t implanted for the sole purpose of study and they weren’t aborted for this reason either. Instead they were implanted to create life, yet, in the process of development they died on their own accord. They might have died within weeks of cell differentiation, dying decades before they would have had they gone to term, but aren’t these “failed” embryos the equivalent of a cadaver in that they are life that has died?
If life begins at conception (or here in-vitro fertilization) wouldn’t that person’s death be the same whether it come at 85 or 1 week? And if so why can’t these essentially dead human beings be used for research in the same way that cadavers are used for research?
There is a distinction of consent. Cadavers are usually adults and have given consent, but if the mother of the embryo gives consent, which would be legal and needed for practically all other medical procedures until that embryo became the age of majority, then there really isn’t that distinction in this case.
Neil
I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:04PM EST (link)you are mocking the entire concept of science as a progression towards more and more accurate models of the universe.
It has been a spectacularly successful enterprise, seeing as it is in the majority responsible for our current quality of life.
But guess what, it has gotten to the point that you can’t just do cutting edge science in your garage with a home chemistry set and a pair of magnets. It takes money. If you think biology is tough you should take a look at physics (my area). You have any idea how much a particle collider worth anything costs? The LHC is $3.5 to 7 billion just to put together. And the next one will cost more.
So yes basic research is speculative, again that’s partly why companies don’t do it. Yes, it may fail to generate the desired results. But in science a negative result is still a result, it still expands our knowledge of everything.
If you really think we’ve played out all that science has to give us then say so. It’s a bold position and I think it’d be interesting to read your argument. But arguing that ESCR may not come to anything while simultaneously funding 800 other projects which have less potential is ridiculous.
ECO...moral judgements are not "above my pay grade"...
Attack Mode (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:06PM EST (link)And they shouldn’t be above your pay grade either. In fact all decisions should be based on whether or not they are moral(as in right or wrong) in essence.
As far as your arguments of the cause of the greater good being more ethical than throwing the embryos in the trash, again I would say that science, without the respect for life, is easily bent to the passions of evil men. The only way to mitigate this is to not provide the opportunity for them to do evil in the name of science in the first place.
If they take these embryos out of the trash and do find a cure for some chronic disease the next fight would be whether it is ethical to harvest embryos for this purpose. Now the slope is set and you have already gone headfirst down the slide. Upon “popular” support, since no one wants to see some one die when they can be cured, we would begin harvesting. Next people become complacent wrt their own health and you get more diseases being spread because everyone knows that science has found the cure. The embryonic supply is waning…what now? Shall we decide to pay women for there embryos, maybe a cap and trade like system would work. Maybe we would decide that Hispanics are reproducing at a higher rate and therefore find it ethical to take embryos away from the mother in the first trimester in order to feed the supply gap of viable embryos for the cause of science. After all we would want to see Michael J. Fox show any symptoms of Parkinsons.
The only question is if we begin, at what point do we stop. The only moral and ethical answer to this is to not begin in the first place.
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
Federal funding for research on existing...
furious (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:13PM EST (link)…embryonic stem cell lines is already in place.
The basic research, of which you speak, has already produced candidate cells with all the potential of embryonic cells using genetic manipulation of skin cells.
So the utilitarian argument for alternative cell-sourcing is still, um, viable.
–furious
“I find your lack of faith disturbing.” — Darth Vader
mmhmm
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 2:16PM EST (link)I totally understand your slippery slope argument. It makes perfect sense and creating life for the sole purpose of research is something I, personally, find worse than abortion, because, unlike abortion, the intent to destroy for research is the intent to create.
Now, I do, however, believe that if we could stop this slippery slope then we should allow such research. Extraordinarily strict laws. Extremely strict oversight and extremely strict criminal charges should be part of the mix. But I do see how this could essentially open Pandora’s Box.
The ban on federal funding will be lifted in the next administration and I hope they do the right thing to prevent what you are saying, because ethically I believe there isn’t a problem with using failed embryos that were not implanted for research purposes and died of their own accord. I feel like this is the equivalent of doing research on cadavers. But the line in this realm is easily stepped over.
by pagrade
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 2:17PM EST (link)I meant the science of it, not the morals of it. I am no scientist.
my take is pretty black and white
streiff (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:19PM EST (link)http://www.catholicinsight.com/online/church/vatican/article_475.shtml
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
ECO..."But the line in this realm is easily stepped over."
Attack Mode (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:21PM EST (link)This is the whole point ECO….you can’t mitigate this once you allow it.
I look at this as I look at Iran getting nukes, once they get them it is exponentially harder to insure that they won’t use them. The time to mitigate is before the genie is out of the bottle, not after.
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
science and morality are not mutually exclusive...
Attack Mode (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:23PM EST (link)nor should they be!!
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
good hypo.
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 2:26PM EST (link)Yea, nobody would want either of those things to happen.
But how if it would only take one successful embryonic cell study in order to give scientists a model that they can use to work on perfecting non-embryonic stem cells. Essentially, in order to kick start research of non-embryonic stem cells, the scientist just needs one successful experiment on embryonic stem cells in order to open the door. It would be the missing puzzle piece and that slippery slope never takes place. We are able to cure terrible diseases with the success of just one study.
I know
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 2:27PM EST (link)I was speaking to the mechanics of the procedure.
Do you have any moral objection with forcing people
Vaughn Harold (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:29PM EST (link)to pay for research they find immoral, as wells as, the law enforcement & bigger government that you propose must be in place for this to be allowed to happen?
not true
streiff (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:29PM EST (link)ESCR have been heavily funded by state governments, by venture capital, and by universities. When one looks at Europe and Asia your statement stops being laughable and starts being dishonest.
Another statement you make is simply wrong. Federal money is still used for ESCR, but only on a select series of ESC lines. Allegedly, this isn’t sufficient because these lines don’t reflect the “diversity” of humanity. One would think, however, that if ESC can cure Parkinson’s in a white guy there is a good chance they would work for lots of other people.
The failures are not because several billion dollars have NOT been thrown at it but because the immunological problems in the use of ESC may very well be insuperable.
The fact is that some scientists, oddly enough mostly those with a heavy financial interest in the outcome of the debate, insist ESC are the next big thing but to date the advances have been minimal, if at all. On the other hand, ASC and blood cord cells are showing that they have as much potential as ESC with few of the technological problems.
So I oppose federal funding of ESCR on the grounds that not only is it morally reprehensible it is borderline humbug.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Yes
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 2:39PM EST (link)..but the fact is that as lowly taxpayers the government spends money on a lot of things that I would rather them not spend money on that others would want them to. So that is an argument, but you more than likely would lack the standing to bring the issue to court.
Grow up and get off the government dole
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:49PM EST (link)Sheesh.
Streiff demolishes your assertions about the need for federal funding below.
RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
I suppose I should look forward to more of this
Vaughn Harold (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:50PM EST (link)“you more than likely would lack the standing to bring the issue to court” under Obama’s administration.
It’s all going to be about were the money should be funneled to, not the consitution, nor the rights of the minority! Thanks for lifting the smoke screen!
All the Science Has to Give Us...
furious (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 2:54PM EST (link)…and all the funding we need for the basic research to get there:
“I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds”
–Robert Oppenheimer
“Now we’re all sons-of-bitches.”
–Ken Bainbridge
Even physicists have qualms, sometimes, it seems.
–furious
“I find your lack of faith disturbing.” — Darth Vader
You couldn't be more right that "We the people" have become just lowly taxpayers. n/t
Vaughn Harold (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 3:24PM EST (link)But Jews support ESCR
charliehall Monday, November 17th at 3:25PM EST (link)And we see the Nazi analogy as offensive. The largest group of Orthodox rabbis in America has expressed its support for ESCR, saying in part:
“Our Torah tradition places great value upon human life; we are taught in the opening chapters of Genesis that each human was created in G-d’s very image. The potential to save and heal human lives is an integral part of valuing human life from the traditional Jewish perspective. Moreover, our rabbinic authorities inform us that an isolated fertilized egg does not enjoy the full status of person-hood and its attendant protections. Thus, if embryonic stem cell research can help us preserve and heal humans with greater success, and does not require or encourage the destruction of life in the process, it ought to be pursued.”
http://www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=100553
Nazi analogies are inappropriate on an issue where the entire spectrum of the Jewish community opposes you.
Charlie Hall
Or the passion of good intentions...
furious (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 3:28PM EST (link)…with which the road to H*ll is often paved.
Frankly, it’s the sincere passion of good intentions (who could argue with at least we meant well”?) that scares me more.
–furious
“I find your lack of faith disturbing.” — Darth Vader
Semantics Furious....
Attack Mode (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 3:32PM EST (link)The passions of evil men v. the passions of good intentions…to me they are in essence the same, at least in this debate.
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
Charliehall....the Nazi's and Eugenicist did not limit themselves to Jews....
Attack Mode (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 3:37PM EST (link)And therefore I really don’t care if you like us using historically accurate analogies. The Nazi’s are not simply the Holocaust, they embody much more than that.
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
Charliehall, I didnt realize Jews where a monolithic group
Alberta (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 3:50PM EST (link)BTW, we dont have a Pope. Im glad a sect of Jews support it. There are other, for real orthodox, Jews who do not support murder for medicine.
Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.
Abraham Lincoln
standing
EastCoastObserver Monday, November 17th at 3:54PM EST (link)You would lack standing in ANY administration, because the courts have held that as being so.
The more I think about this, the angrier I get.
Vaughn Harold (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 4:06PM EST (link)This is what the Republican party has to overcome “the betrayal of the lowly taxpayer” over the next few years. The path to victory in 2010 is to gain the trust back of the lowly taxpayer by getting taxes & government spending back in check. I’m sure the Democrates will provide many opportunities for Republicans to demostrate that they once again can be trusted with this task! If not, we should get used to the wilderness.
And the courts make it right. LOL n/t
Vaughn Harold (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 4:30PM EST (link)Tell it to the Germans
Menlo (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 4:49PM EST (link)Germany bans the practice as being too reminiscent of the Holocaust.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
But they do.
Menlo (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 5:14PM EST (link)The problem is that laws rarely use the term “human life.” When they do, it does refer to human life at all stages. The liberal lunatics prodcued by law schools took a page from the slave days, capitalizing on the “person” term in the Constitution to declare open season on the unborn.
Much as the liberals want to deny it, there is no uncertainty or lack of objective scientific fact as to what constitutes a human life. We’ve known since 1827. People who claim otherwise belong in the flat-earth camp.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Science existed before government funding
tcgeol (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 5:38PM EST (link)It would exist just as well if that funding were cut off. If a project is that important or shows enough potential, someone will bankroll even the most costly procedures and experiments.
Neil isn’t making a mockery of science at all, but of contemporary science as it feeds off of the government dole with comparatively little return. It is expected that funding will come in. A lot of projects that I have been around have been funded by petroleum corporations and they don’t hand out money unless they feel the project will be beneficial to them.
Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger
Even the Left admits we’re Right
Bound to happen
Menlo (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 5:44PM EST (link)McCain would have done it too.
Of course Democrats have always been the party to favor more money for less work (and vice versa). Unfortunately, most Republicans have warmed to the idea too.
Everyone in the nation should consider it liberal to spend ANY money on even legitimate scientific research, let alone the illegitimate variety! However by that standard, all members of both parties in Congress (except Ron Paul) would be liberals.
Like the UK, it looks as though we are doomed to gratify the pleasures of mad scientists who belong as mental hospital patients.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Where's the money going to come from, Neil
I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 10:47PM EST (link)-nt.
Big difference
I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 10:53PM EST (link)Yes, of course science existed before government funding but the cutting edge of physics was once dropping different weighted objects from a height. The cutting edge of biology was once growing different pea plants in proximity.
Times change.
Cutting edge science now is expensive. As our knowledge increases the areas left to explore become ever more esoteric, ever more rarified, and, yes, ever more expensive.
how have you been T the T?
speciallist (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:00PM EST (link)Your boy won….you should be getting a Check soon….
I know its expensive. I'm in science as well (although a cheaper area than physics)
tcgeol (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:03PM EST (link)If something is that important or holds that much promise, it will find funding. The government has no Constitutional authority to fund any research outside that relating to defense.
Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger
Even the Left admits we’re Right
Wait ......your Dude won....
speciallist (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:03PM EST (link)n/p
Can you back that up?
I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:10PM EST (link)You claim there’s a lot of research money out there, I’d like to see where you get that from.
Europe and Asia don’t sink but a fraction of what the US does into research. There’s a reason so many of the important developments of the last century have come from here- because we’ve paid for it.
The biggest source of research funding in Europe is Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft. Their ENTIRE budget is 1.7 billion Euros, close to $2 billion (source). Compare that to the NIH who alone gives out $28 billion in research funds (their actual budget is bigger).
Seriously, Asia and Europe are nothing compared to us.
Yes ESCR federal funding is available for the existing lines but the scientists say those lines are in a bad state and pretty much useless. I believe them.
Same place it's always come from
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:12PM EST (link)Well, except for the charlatans and cargo cultists. They’ll get nothing. Which is cause to celebrate.
RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
*shrug*
I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:13PM EST (link)I didn’t vote Obama, Specialist, I’m not sure why you don’t believe me. I wrote a diary outlining in detail why I didn’t like him for president.
I'm sure Brahe's observatory wasn't cheap (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:13PM EST (link)RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
I could build a telescope
I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:15PM EST (link)matching Brahe’s in my garage. Seriously.
What I can’t build is the Hubble space telescope (much less the rocket to deliver it to orbit).
Guess which of those two is of actual use to science these days?
Where's that?
I was previously Tlaloc, and I was banned last year. (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:19PM EST (link)Evidently you know of some hidden spring of research funding. I (and many many others) would love to know where that lies exactly.
So where can we get a replacement for the $28 billion dollars a year that the NIH currently doles out? And the $6 of teh National Science Foundation? Plus I don’t even know how much goes to the Universities directly.
Whoosh (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, November 17th at 11:21PM EST (link)RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
human life
EastCoastObserver Tuesday, November 18th at 9:26PM EST (link)…I’m pretty sure most murder statutes have been interpreted by the courts to be applicable only to life that has survived birth. The problem with the law is that they want bright line rules, so the court counts human life as those who have been born. Its archaic considering that premature babies of only 5 months can sometimes survive outside the womb. You would think the law would start updating itself, at least, to count murder against those unborn who have reached a stage of development that they could survive outside of the womb, but again, the Court wants bright line rules.
Unlike Religion the courts aren’t comfortable in claiming human rights begin at conception (why? well for a lot of reasons based on other things than religion, like precedent and science) and establishing that those rights vest at a time “when a fetus could survive outside the womb” is in no way a bright line rule. So they’ve kept it at birth. Although, I’m pretty sure President Bush signed a law for Stacy Peterson’s unborn child, but I’m not sure of its scope.
Not quite
Menlo (Diary) Tuesday, November 18th at 11:18PM EST (link)It’s not the courts who did that. That has been the intent and enforcement of all murder statutes since the beginning of the nation. Several states like Texas have written separate statutes to apply the murder statutes to the unborn when not killed according to abortion regulations. Federal courts, and many state ones, have upheld these.
Regardless, the problem is not courts but law enforcement and legislatures.
You are right that it is archaic; but survival outside should not make the least bit of difference. That’s a stupid, imaginary, illogical, and barbaric criteria that no one can determine or define.
What is archaic is that we discovered concretely and objectively when human life began in 1827. It’s why abortions were outlawed at the time (by the request of doctors who wanted laws to reflect this scientific advancement – not by religious groups). It never was about faith or religion, nor should it be. It fits all the biological criteria for distinct life (dependence on another is not among the criteria). That IS modern science, and it ought to be acknowledged and adhered to today. Before 1827, we did have to rely on faith and unknowns. Bear in mind though that Today’s “progressives” want us in the stone age anyway given their environmental and regressive economic agenda.
That law enforcement have failed to defy the courts and protect the unborn implies that they do not believe the unborn have rights either and that they trust the court or think it is within reason. Otherwise, such an act would warrant their defiance. I DO blame supposedly “pro-life” governors and law enforcement agencies for that. Of course, abortion never was prosecuted as murder prior to Roe. This is why we need to consider our cause a truly “progressive” one rather than one of “traditional values” or theological teaching.
That’s dealt with in state laws that vary by state. A federal law only allows it if the child is killed in a federal crime. In Texas it applies for any killing of the unborn from fertilization that does not comport with all abortion regulations, even if the woman requests it and is unharmed. The Texas Supreme court recetly upheld it.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
didn't know
EastCoastObserver Wednesday, November 19th at 12:14PM EST (link)thanks for the info.