Redstate

whatever you think about Russia or Putin you have to admit the following quote about Israel in Jordan is one of the all time zingers:

...the use of force should be balanced.

That ranks right up there with the Hamas spokesman that condemned that bus attack in Iraq..."Hamas condemns bombing public transportation!"

I'll tell you what would degrade our credibility in the world...if we leave before the job is finished in Iraq!

We pull out and leave a mess...we have zero credibility forever!

Now, granted, since I'm Serbian it isn't as if Russia is all that foreign. But, I had zero problems in Moscow or St. Petersburgh. Nothing blew up. I didn't see any pitched street battles outside my hotel.

I had a great time, though my Russian is rusty. Still - I can't fathom where all this anti-Russian hatred is coming from. Tens of thousands of people or more travel from the U.S. to Russia all the time. The business links are solid, and if you don't like the government, well that doesn't seem to impact business with China, now does it?

China is an absolute tyranny, right down to the summary executions. In Russia, no one I met was running around afraid of the government or afraid to speak their mind. There are plenty of political movements, ranging from the serious to the loopy. There has been a religious awakening, and the young people seem to be going to church and worshipping.

Now, I haven't been to Iraq, but for a fact things blow up there all the time. The U.S. military is constantly in the streets, government officials hide in the Green Zone, and, in fact, everyone here freely admits that without our troops the government in Iraq (which is so 'democratic' and 'representative') couldn't even exist.

Remember that you all want to stay and finish the job and worry about what will happen to the Iraqi government if we pull out?

Russia has issues, but I don't think it is terminal by any means. As for Democracy, I am not sure that Russia will stay a democracy, or that such as thing should even matter. Is Russia threatening war against the U.S.? Is Russia supporting terrorists who are attacking the U.S.?

You mention Chechnya, who are the Russians fighting? Muslim fanactics.

Who did I fight as a Serbian conscript in the early 90's? Muslim fanatics.

When Israel bombs Muslims, it is justified. When the U.S. bombs Muslims it is justified. When Serbs and Russians defend themselves against Muslim fanatics, then it is genocide.

If someone could explain that logic to me, then I would be happy to listen.

I will agree with you that Russia has a right and a duty to its citizens to protect them from Chechyen terrorists.  But why do they at the same time sit there and thwart our efforts to reign in Iran's attempts at acquiring nuclear weapons?  Why were they supplying Iraqi military units with night vizion goggles right up to the out break of war in 2003?  Their actions are duplicitous.  They want to kill fanatics in Chechnya but they don't want us to kill them in the greater Middle East.  The Russians don't care about our well being; the Russians' main goal for the past fifteen years has been to recapture the prominence that they once had in the post-war era.  They get off on being able to veto UN resolutions that would give the US a leg up in the War on Terror.  Basically, I don't trust the mongaliod SOB's.

1. Stop saying "we," since you are not one of "us."




2. Stop the threadjacking

This is your one warning.

An honest answer. Score one for Iraq. Thanks.

I guess I should leave something else.

I don't have any problem with your logic(though I'm not a R either so...).  Russia does not have the U.S. military so it's kind of absurd to hold them to our standards.  I admit I squirmed quite a bit back when Grozny was being obliterated but if all you have's a hammer everything's a nail.  Or however that goes.

But hasn't U.S. commentary on Chechnya been pretty absent post-9/11?  I think I've heard more carping about democracy than Chechnya.  Hell, I think I've heard more about Gazprom than Chechnya.

creeping out from Kos' little noll.

No, really, your 4 comments so far are empty, devoid of context and are meaningless.

We have has much leg to stand on as we want, nobody owns us. If you want to be a coward, you will do nothing in this world without the approval of evil people and institutions. If you are strong of character, you will do what is right and needs to be done. There is absolutely no one to stop us other than ourselves.

Actually, it's not at all a non sequitor.

But I anticipated some would say that so I'm not surprised.

I'll score you as "push".

take this opportunity to cancel your subscription to the "Democratic Party Talking Points Mailing List ™". You will do much better around here, {Hint, hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge} Otherwise I predict a short and unillustrious record of participation at RedState.

We don't shoot up towns indiscriminately.  We don't leave behind mass graves full of civilians.  We don't go in with a stated goal of 'ethnic cleansing.'  

Guys like Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic were organizing just that.

Ever since the Nord Ost attack, I'm pretty much in full support of Russian fighting against the Chechen Islamofascists.

But you brought up the former Yugoslavian stuff, and that's what I objected to in comparison.

only the part of it that was dedicated to my homeland? Just curious.

The Chechens slaughtered kids in a school, and blew up targets in Moscow. I suppose those were justified by the actions of the Russians in Chechnya? Of course, the Russians tried to let the place go, until the Muslim nutcases there decided to destabilize the region for good measure.

But if Israel did any of those things you accuse the Serbs and the Russians of doing - would you be so bold in your condemnation? Fighting Islamic terrorists isn't a tea party, or hadn't you noticed? Aren't you the bunch of people that keeps calling for more determined action? More vigilance?

Someone said, "Make them afraid" on this site. Fine, Serbia gave that a shot in Kosovo and got bombed for it. Russia gets condemned for it. But no matter what Israel does to defend itself against Muslim terrorism, or whatever tactics the U.S. employs in Iraq such as leveling the town of Fallujah, it is always justified.

I'm not telling Israel to back off. I'm not telling the U.S. to back off. I'm telling all of you to back off how other people fight Muslim terrorism. It isn't that different from what you are doing, or what the Israelis are doing.

But again, you don't really respond to anything I said about Russia. Isn't there a conference on Democracy going on in Russia right now? I just found it, the 'Other Russia.'

The meeting was also attended by Daniel Fried, the US Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, and Barry Lowenkron, the Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labour. The Canadian Ambassador was also there. Mr Fried told reporters that it would be distressing if it was confirmed that opposition supporters had been blocked from attending. He said that his presence was part of the US Administration's regular contacts with the Opposition and civil society, but Mr Brenton was the only Western official to address the conference.

Russia has foreign powers sponsoring conferences held in Russia that criticize the government. Try that in China, I dare you.

Or, try having a conference in Iraq and see how long you live before someone blows you up.

You could do this in Belgrade, by the way. I know, I've attended them.

Visit Russia. Go ahead. It's a good vacation, and the business deals are there for the making. Visit Serbia if you like. Unlike Iraq, the roads out of the airport are not bombed or strafed, all of the utilities work, and the people will be nice to you instead of kidnapping you and cutting off your head.

That is a definite improvement over Baghdad.

"supporting"....

Re:

Is Russia supporting terrorists who are attacking the U.S.?

you presume history ends in 24 months this is a very deep question. Otherwise, it is pretty much of a non sequitur to the post.

In Iraq you can make a difference and do some good in the world. Russia is just cold!

I don't have much of a dog in this fight (I don't really care much Russia and Putin one way or another), but I'm curious how people would respond to the following question:

- If you had to choose to spend the next twenty four months living in Russia or living in Iraq, which country would you prefer to live in?

I love the fact that, if one looks at just the portion of the transcript posted, one could interpret Bush's reply, "Just wait," to mean something like this:  "Just wait.  Maybe someday Russia will have a democacy as open and free as they do in Iraq."


Sadly, though, the reason that Think Progress did not point out the irony of Putin criticizing anyone's kind of democracy is because they didn't even see it.  The mind set on display here doesn't actually understand the reality of democracy.  According to this way of thinking, when things don't go the way we think it should, something else is at fault.  Whatever has happened must be illegal, because we don't like it, and can't accept that it could have happened legitimately.  Democracy is a Good Thing, and thus a really Bad Thing can't happen unless democracy has somehow been circumvented.


Democracy is neutral, and in this way is a lot like money:  money doesn't care who owns it, and democracy doesn't care who votes for it.

...have a much dimmer view of capitalist democracy than we do, and not only from old memories of Communist schoolbooks, but because the rapid Russian privatization they saw in the 1990s was so corrupt. Americans sometimes forget how absolutely essential a clean government and clean courts are for allowing capitalism to work. Can't work without it. When your private property--the fruit of several years of your labor--can be taken away at someone's whim, the result of a bribe, you don't have capitalism--you have slavery. So understandably, a lot of Russians say, if that's capitalism, I want no part of it. And Putin has been taking advantage of that sentiment to consolidate his power.

when one considers the suppurating wound that is Chechnya, a situation perilously close to genocide. When one considers that the press in Iraq is infinitely more diverse and free than Russia. I would wager that there are more, and a greater rate, of murders and kidnapping in Russia than in Iraq.

From a public health standpoint, Russia's population is in a freefall thanks to abortion as a primary contraceptive measure (attention NARAL, your ad would go nicely here) and with the combined effects of HIV/AIDS, alcoholism, and environmental factors have seen Russia shed about a decade from its life expectancy in the past 20 years. When one recalls that Russian life expectancy increased through the collectiviztion famines, World War II, and Stalin's loving care this, alone, should demonstrate the terminal nature of Putin's Russia.

And the economy. Transportation (if you've flown Aeroflot would you repeat the experience?). And on and on.

So Iraq has tons of troubles. Agreed. Unlike Russia the signs of movement we see in Iraq are up.

When I heard Putin's comment all I could think was "you should be so lucky."  Or rather "Your people should be so lucky."

Unfortunately, I think this shows what little credibility we have in this world due to the war.

to believe there was something here other than a throw away line and an intent to troll, but given the post, the links, and the context it is really hard to make that leap of faith.

Try Ever since the wall came down.

"...never.  help.  anybody..."

Homer Simpson

our credibility has not been degraded by the Iraq War, that's just plain unadulterated leftwing BS --- KnownFact™ if you will

We don't much of a leg to stand on.  If we did Russia would be willing to work with us.  If China didn't own half of our country they'd be willing to work with us.

Unfortunately, I think the war we started leaves us with few options.

How can you go and test streiff's faith like this?