Sadly, Tony Snow is Wrong and Lindsey Graham is a Liar.
By Erick Posted in Immigration — Comments (105) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
UPDATED: Several people say what I have below is false because the Z-1 Vis costs $1000.00., which will be called a fine. Multiple Senate staffers tell me it is up in the air still as to whether that $1000.00 will have to be paid during the Z-1 application phase. Likewise, illegal aliens can get the Z-1 visa, renew it in perpetuity, and never pay any fines.
"Well, again, you know, amnesty is this term that people want to throw around rather than reading the bill and making the arguments. Senator DeMint, whom I like a lot, he's just flat wrong on this. He's not even close to right.” – White House spokesman Tony Snow responding to those who say the immigration reform bill is “amnesty.” (CNN Lou Dobbs, May 17, 2007)
Likewise, Lindsey Graham said it's not amnesty and attacked Jim DeMint for daring to say it was.
Actually, the Senate plan is amnesty. According to the dictionary, amnesty is "an undertaking by the authorities to take no action against specified offenses or offenders during a fixed period." According to the Senate plan, while illegal aliens will have to pay an $8000.00 (or is it $4000.00?) fine over 5 years if they apply for a green card, there will be no such fines if they apply for a "Z" Visa.
Under the proposed plan, an illegal alien can apply for a "Z" Visa without paying any penalties, and renew the "Z" visa in perpetuity. So, they get to stay here, pay no fine, and suffer no penalty for breaking the law.
And if they do apply for a green card, they pay their fine over 5 years, but don't have to pay back taxes or anything else.
Sounds like amnesty to me.
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Sadly, Tony Snow is Wrong and Lindsey Graham is a Liar. 105 Comments (0 topical, 105 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
During the Clinton impeachment, Graham was one of the wonder boys on the Right and suffered more than a fair share of slings and arrows for it. Now it seems he can't do enough to get along and go along with the Left. Causation or corelation?
In Vino Veritas
It's exasperating to see all the people who pretend amnesty means "the granting of American citizenship".
Some of them know better, I'm sure.
None-the-less, he is employed for a purpose, and I wouldn't expect him to do less.
Just ignore it. He knows it's amnesty. Really, everyone knows it amnesty. The only question is whether the American People can make it hurt enough so they don't pass it.
We want this as an issue for the elections. If there was actually a chance that the solution would work, it would be indecent to propose keeping the issue around instead of solving the problem.
That is not the case here. The solution will not help anything except allow insulated elites to ignore the issue a little longer.
Delay it. Get rid of it. No bill is better than this bill.
And I think it may even be a deal killer.
of Ted Kennedy?, made in 1986: "This amnesty will give citizenship to only 1.1 to 1.3 million illegal aliens. We will secure the borders henceforth. We will never again bring forward another amnesty bill like this."
We can just change the numbers to 12,000,000 and make it 2007.
As Ronald Reagan once said, "A country without secure borders ceases to be a nation".
...has a history of making false statements regarding immigration reform going back to the dishonest 1965 reform act.
It'd be nice if someone in the media would call him on this, but we know that will never happen.
I think we are just focusing on the worst elements of the bill. None of the "amnesty" features of the legislation come into play until the border is secure and a "high tech worker identification program" is launched. We need to look at this realistically. We have some 12 million illegal immigrants in our country, and I dislike it as much as you. But, in a way, it's our own fault for not securing our border, and they are already here. The amount of resources it would take to remove the 12 million illegal aliens is simply not worth it. They are here, and it would take a Nazi-like door to door search to rid our country of all illegal immigrants.
This bill requires us to secure the border first, something as conservatives we should be thankful for. Let's swallow the amnesty pill, realizing we can do no better, and solve the problem for our children.
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And statesmen at her council met
Who knew the seasons when to take
Occasion by the hand, and make
The bounds of freedom wider yet
- Tennyson, _To the Queen_
Have I got a deal for you.
It's in good shape, very high traffic & I can include rights to toll fees in the price. Contact me immediately by email, this one will go fast!!! Payment via wire transfer, Western Union or PayPal.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
The concern is ignoring and lack of enforcement of other bills. Will Charlie Brown ever wise up and quit trying to kick the ball when Lucy is holding it?
What's going to be different this time?
If our government had a solid reputation of doing what it says, I'd believe them.
Real change requires real change. -Newt Gingrich
We have some 12 million illegal immigrants in our country, and I dislike it as much as you. But, in a way, it's our own fault for not securing our border, and they are already here.
I was robbed several years ago. The burglars came in through the back garage door which I neglected to lock. They stole some very precious, non-replaceable heirlooms.
Your right - it was all my fault. I deserved it. They should punish me for my crimes of omission and allow the thief to keep the stolen property.
Thanks for setting me straight on this.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
dialog I could write about you being smart enough to lock your door and acquire appropriate technology to protect your family, while the borders are breeched and the government just goes off and has a beer.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
It kicks in immeadiately with the automatic z-visa thing.
This thing is the usual scam.
The mechanism requires a willing female and 9 months.
It is called an "anchor baby", and has been addressed by nobody on either side.
Automatic conversion, through legal channels enforced by eager federal jurists, to green cards and not counted against immigration limits.
when you say "The amount of resources it would take to remove the 12 million illegal aliens is simply not worth it."
Removing 12 million illegals will not happen overnight nor in a single year but if the *current* laws are enforced, amnesty cities are denied all federal funds and the 'catch and release courts' are forced to detain and deport violators to their country of origin (think OTM) it will be a good start.
Securing the border with a fence that covers the entire border and is protected by enough security(armed Armed Forces) to prevent zerg crossings this year rather than the few hundred miles proposed will stop all illegal crossings and force the Mexican goverment to deal with their country's economic problems rather than foisting them off on our country.
The economic costs to this country have become to large to ignore and security is the first thing goverment needs to be concerned about. This bill does neither and endorses more of same behaviour.
if we enforced existing laws, held employers accountable, didn't provide free health care or education to folks who are illegally.
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"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." -- James Madison
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
and start tossing them back over the wall one at a time till we're done.
Romney or Fred.
Currently writing non-political stories over at first-cut-stories.blogspot.com
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
In the desert, on a mountain, in a grassy meadow, or next to a lake there are very few bad locations for trebuchets.
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
to get rid of at least half of them.
1) Cut off all federal aid to so-called sanctuary cities, which are nothing more than havens for law breakers and terrorists.
2) Run reports from the IRS to find SSNs reporting income for two different addresses. Turn over the lists of employers to the ICE and have their agents visit the employers unannounced. Deport all illegals found on the premises and prosecute the employers. Report the employers who had the illegals back to the IRS for tax crimes.
3) Build the wall. It's our land, it's our border. Mexico can suck it up and deal with their own problems. As that one is going up, notify Canada that they can buck up or we'll do the same there.
4) Create stations along the border for the DEA and the FBI. If the border patrol thinks they've got drugs or something else coming across, they have a direct link to those stations to call for backup. Maybe even deploy integrated teams of BP, DEA, and FBI along the border.
5) Do the same thing with our military reserves and the National Guard. Heck, the engineering units can help build the wall as part of their training exercises.
6) When a Senator threatens to investigate the administration for items 1 or 2, tell him to stuff it and have the FBI open an obstruction of justice investigation into his office.
It isn't that it is not possible. It is that our current crop of leaders don't have the will to do it. I probably wouldn't even need to deport more than a couple thousands of them. When they get the word about what's coming down, they'll deport themselves. I might even offer them an amnesty: Report to the nearest ICE office and we'll give you a free bus ride home, no questions asked, no charges filed, so as soon as you get home, you can sign up all nice and legally without waiting 8 or 12 years or whatever the number is before they could apply to come if they were deported.
I worked with a guy who had a cousin that had passed out his SS# and had even gotten over a dozen actual replacement SS cards to pass out. three of his illegal cousins had actual authentic Illinois driver's licenses with their own pictures on them by going down with the SS card and birth certificate to get replacements for "lost cards".
Wheels came off when a local Menards called to the front an employee to see why he was applying for employment again when he already worked there and was supposed to be on shift.
Both ran.
Story leaked out and almost 4 dozen different people were working in the area under that ID.
All had the correct SS# and il license. All had names and contacts for legitimate references (who thought that they were OKing the original)(one was a local grade school principal)
Authentic ID, check.
Personal references, check.
credit check and addresses match, check.
How would you have detected that?
That being the idea that the border will be secured before amnesty kicks in. If they were serious about that, then the triggers would include things like, oh I don't know, perhaps a decrease in the illegal population.
This Amnesty bill is one of the worst ever. 20 million illegals will get Amnesty. Then each of those 20 million new citizens will then bring their family members. "We wouldn't want to keep families apart would we?" (that will be the argument repeated even if it isn't in the bill now but I think it is). I heard someone say that each one can bring up to 11 and those 11 can each bring 11 more and so on. It was like this in last year's version, the McCain-Kennedy Amnesty bill. Also how many millions of additional guest workers will move to the U.S.A? How will you get those millions of guest workers to go home if many say you can't get the 12-20 million illegals to go home now?
Even though Democrats will get 20 million new Democrat voters, the liberal mainstream media will pin the blame on the GOP for the passing of this Amnesty. That is because the fake Republicans like Graham and McCain will vote for it and Bush will sign it. Even if 80% of Republicans vote against the bill the liberal media will label the bill the "Bipartisan immigration reform bill" like they did with the McCain-FienGlold atrocity. So passing this bill will destroy the GOP and it will greatly damage the U.S.A.
Bringing in 50 to 200 million of 3rd world poor people to a country is a sure way to get on the road to serfdom/socialism.
Socialism/Liberalism/Marxism Doesn't work.
We expect the Democrats and leftists to be for anything that brings a quicker end to the concept of national sovereignty - since the left never liked the concept of "nationhood", anyway, but for the Republicans to be supporting such awful, expensive, and dangerous legislation is beyond comprehension. This will spell the end of the Republican party if this bill goes through.
Perhaps US democracy has just finally found the end of its run in the craven pandering to the uneducated, foreign criminals who think that this country belongs to them and the TREASONOUS US lawmakers who are more than happy to give this country to anyone who has the will to run across our borders.
I guess they'll be voting on a bill to grant Muslim sharia law, next ...
The compromise says that the Z card involves a $1,000 fine up front, and then a $4,000 fine to apply for permanent residency. If you have information that says that the actual bill does not contain this provision, I'd love to see it.
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[F]or by the fundamental law of Nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred...
-John Locke
which is 'renewable' after four-years, but would require payment of an additional $500 fine.
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“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan
As others have said, it won't take long for the media to start hardship stories about how onerous it is for former illegals to pay the fine. Then the Democrats will end any pretense that they were ever serious about it anyway by officially amending the bill to either waive or drastically reduce the fine.
that pains me because he went to make a difference, but Bush & co weren't interested in changing. it's amnesty w/o security. it's a foolish bid to gain Mexican favor in 2008 which will backfire massively and destroy the GOP forever.
if this passes and is signed, I can no longer support the Republican Party. Maybe I'll vote for a Constitution Party candidate... or Tom Tancredo.
I guess you all missed Senator Graham's message. We are supposed to shut up America belongs to the world not Americans.
I believe our laws should be followed ergo I am a bigot, I will support any one who wishes to run against Lindsey Graham in the primaries, and I mean anyone and I will also if he makes it out of the primaries will send money to his Dem opposition.
with South Carolina. And SC's near-perfect Jim DeMint makes Graham sound even more absurd.
I'm sorry I ever defended this guy.
First of all, it looks and sounds like he's going to cry at the end! Good grief! I haven't seen such a shameful display from a conservative since Grover Norquist a few years ago at a C-PAC panel debate on immigration.
Secondly, the language he uses is thoroughly leftwing. "We're gonna tell the bigots to shut up!" Who talks like that except liberals? He seems to suffer from some white guilt, mixed with a nauseating does of self-righteousness. If you favor more restrictive immigration laws (a majority or plurality of the nation in many cases), then you're a bigot? Again, that is textbook leftwing rhetoric.
...if one is a conservative who holds leftwing views on immigration, then fine, so be it. But must he use such language; the very language the left uses to demonize conservatives and demagogue the issue?
"Under the proposed plan, an illegal alien can apply for a "Z" Visa without paying any penalties, and renew the "Z" visa in perpetuity. So, they get to stay here, pay no fine, and suffer no penalty for breaking the law."
Bottom line Its amnesty with Paperwork.
Is that not the ideal of Big Government Republicanism?
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
if it wasn't for NAFTA and other free trade agreements, big business (and small business) wouldn't have to compensate by hiring underpaid illegals.
Its a reward
I could live with a plan that said 'go back home and we won't penalize you.
They that are with us are more than they that are against us.
this Z card gives them everything they would want except a path to citizenship. They don't have to leave the country, they can attend our schools, utilize our medical facilities, and utilize our social service facilities. Why in God's name would they ever want or need a green card?
has, I believe, always been a red herring. People marching in protest under the flag of a foreign power are really not interested in the switch of loyalties that citizenship entails.
Legal residence will do just fine.
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And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.
You have more brains than around 70 United States Senators.
They that are with us are more than they that are against us.
I agree with you about the question of where the loyalty of such people lies, but unfortunately for Republicans, it would be better if permanent legal residence were all they were after. Many will go on to vote, and most of them will vote Democratic.
Can we pay our taxes in Pesos and fill out the forms in Spanish?
Real change requires real change. -Newt Gingrich
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
when you're down there to go to the ATM and get your checking account balance in pesos!
In Vino Veritas
Something no one seems to be talking about regarding this amnesty program is - the timing. I know it’s been a cliché of late, but the timing is suspect.
In what industry do a high proportion of the illegals work? In the housing industry.
What is happening to the housing industry? It is ready to drop into recession due to over pricing and the imminent credit crunch. Where are all of these non-English speaking, unskilled, mostly uneducated people going to go when those jobs dry up? Well if Teddy the Hutt and Bush have their way, right onto the public dole which they will now be eligible for.
They keep saying that these people are ‘required’ for our 21st century economy. Perhaps I’m missing something but we need more uneducated High School dropouts? While this is going on, we restrict those highly educated motivated people who want to emigrate here to build their life in a new country AND ASSIMIMILATE!
Does anyone actually believe that given the choice of going back to a 3rd world country or staying in the US and getting free health care, food stamps and a nice check each month the (now legal and not necessarily 'citizens') will opt to leave? You haven’t seen a run on the border like the one coming when word gets out about the free money these stupid Yankees are giving away.
When did it become OUR responsibility to make it easy for people to get here and take advantage of our nation? It should, it must be hard to become an American.
Those things that come easily are not valued like that which came at a price.
Everything about amnesty violates the very core our most deeply held beliefs. It’s not surprising that the weasels in DC have forgotten what it means to be an American.
I have to put that one in my repertoire.
And this is gold -- right on the money bro -- It should, it must be hard to become an American. Those things that come easily are not valued like that which came at a price.
It's war -- so when can we start shooting back at the enemy Democrats?
Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security. --Edmund Burke
Blog: TMYN
... it is OBVIOUS Congress is trying to "stick it to" ALL law abiding citizens. What a SHAME!
http://OsiSpeaks.com or http://OsiSpeaks.org
With malice towards none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see right.
if the population grows by over a hundred million people in the next 15 years that don't speak English and do not plan to learn English added to the 40 million Spanish speakers currently in the U.S. won't we end up like Canada
Will California, Texas, Arizona, etc have cities that speak only Spanish and my one day wish to secede?
on those who would dare hire an undocumented alien?
The solution is simple.......
though maybe not politically simple.
Drain the swamp.
Enact $500,000 fines and 5 year mandatory jail terms for CEOs/business owners who dare employ illegals. Require that business owners/CEOs/presidents certify(as CEOs now have to do with financials)their staffs are either American citizens or legally documented.
Then when the inevitable violations occur, frog march the violators off to jail ala John Regis, Dennis Kozlowski, Bernie Ebbers, Jeffrey Skilling. A crackdown seems to have worked pretty well and gotten the message across in that sector.
We'll never solve the illegal immigration problem until we remove the motivation for coming here.....jobs. Once it becomes too dangerous to one's executive position or way of life as a business owner to consider hiring an illegal, the jobs for them will over time dry up and the illegals already here with no chance of continuing income will self-deport. The ones considering sneaking in will have no further motivation.
The swamp will be drained without a need to "round anyone up"
But is is simple - just enforce the existing laws!
"But it is simple - just enforce the existing laws!"
The existing laws amount to a slap on the wrist and are rarely enforced.
If we are to solve this problem we MUST make hiring an illegal so dangerous and potentially painful to employers that it rarely, if ever, occurs. Hence you dry up the job market for illegals and they go home.
And others have no reason to come.
Business owners who knowingly hire illegals(99%)to cut labor costs are in fact co-conspirators in crime and like the Kozlowskis and Skillings, need to be held accountable.
Yes Neville, and you would be ok w/ the government allowing all kinds of illegal drugs around your kids everywhere they go but if they try them they will be put in prison for 10 years. That'll stop em.
Real change requires real change. -Newt Gingrich
I am tired of government not doing their job we pay them for and passing the buck onto business.
There are very FEW businesses that ACTIVELY recruit illegals. Those few should be prosecuted. The vast majority of businesses take applications and 2 forms of ID according to the I9 form. Any deviation will get them sued for discrimination.
If the government doesn't want the job of border security then they should reduce our taxes and we'll get the private sector to do it.
What's next? The government will require employers to verify that their employees have paid their taxes in full or face jail time?
I am tired of the big bad CEO talk. Let's talk about the big bad politician. Let's hold our elected representatives accountable, just once! Let's add fines and jail time for them too.
You talk about removing the motivation for illegals to come here...jobs....well...the Dems are already have proven to do a fine job at removing jobs. Especially if they gain the White House.
There is very little accountability in Washington. We need to start there. Not enabling them to continue to pass the burden on to the people.
Real change requires real change. -Newt Gingrich
What you say makes sense, Common Cents, but down here in TX, it is very hard to believe that employers are not knowingly hiring ilegals. But I understand what you are saying about ID and the I9s. So my question to you is, is part of the answer that we need to provide better tools to employers?
It is encouraging what is happening in Farmers Branch, TX recently- and a few other cities, if you are familiar- but the pro-illegal-immigration spin is that "it is wrong/illegal to turn business owners and landlords into law and immigration inforcement"
Newt has a very nice sounding list of immigration reform elements, by the way.
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"Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." -Augustine
There is no easy solution. However, because something is hard doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. Nobody wants to tackle it now it is a huge issue. The slippery slope has just turned into a free fall.
I live in MN so I'm sure it is much more extreme closer to the border. If business needs employees they should be able to get them, through legal means. I have no problem with immigration as long as its done legally. Our legal immigration process is so inefficient it has contributed greatly to the black market labor. Our borders are porous. No big revelation there. But shocking is the lack of response by our elected officials.
Comprehensive reform has to be 2 pronged. Make legal immigration much more efficient and streamlined based on demand for labor. Seal the borders. There is no magical solution. No shortcut. No Cliff's Notes.
Biometric is really the only way to go that I can see. Requiring some tamper proof ID just for illegals is useless. They just go out and get a SS card and drivers license and POOF, they don't need a tamper proof ID because they are "legal".
Of course you get the big brother is watching you arguments but I think succeeding in life is not acheiving perfection (paralysis by analysis) but rather trading your current set of problems in for a smaller set of problems.
The problem with forcing business is they will now have to become private investigators on every single hire they make. Selectively doing so only leads to discrimination.
As Gingrich says, Fedex tracks 10's of millions of packages a day and tells you when it was dropped where and who signed for it. We have the ability to acheive the necessary solutions for immigration but our elected officials choose not to do so. They are the problem. People running across our border are not the problem. Businesses hiring them are not the problem. It's our government that allows it is the problem.
Real change requires real change. -Newt Gingrich
This kind of talk sounds great. The thought of enforcement and tough penalties sounds so nice. I see it being mentioned all over the place. But I never see any detractors. I never see anyone suggesting that we continue to not enforce the law.
So the big question is: How do we go about doing this? I really have no idea myself...
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"Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." -Augustine
The rock upon which this proposal would inevitably flounder will be the first media report of a sixty-five year old, cherubic grandmother (and owner of a cleaning company) being carted off to jail for five years because she couldn't prove that she exercise due diligence in vetting her employees. Which will happen - or something like it - and the very idea of it happening terrifies most politicians, for good reason.
It's like shooting bear cubs. Even when it's a good idea - like, when, you've got a predator/prey imbalance in the local population, causing the former to start assaulting suburbian trash cans and/or household pets - nobody in power wants to be the guy who told people to go shoot the photogenic little darlings.
Moe
PS: I'm just the messenger.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
Moe, you are creatively communicative and hillarious, both at the same time.
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"Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." -Augustine
Yeah but she would be characterized in the media as the rich white owner of a cleaning company exploiting workers and the system for her own fabulous wealth. You know, driving a new 5 yr old SUV and living in a lavish doublewide.
Real change requires real change. -Newt Gingrich
Some ideas that might help enforce the laws we have:
1) Re: Business owners who hire illegals get fined for the difference between what they pay illegals and the market rate plus having to pay court costs etc. Put them on probation for the first offense and revoke it if they do it again. People don't like repeat offenders.
2) There are a few good ideas in the bill buried by the bad ones. Why not require business owners to do due diligence by requiring online queries of citizenship using ssn/tin. The IRS know which employers are reporting employees who cite ssns that are duplicates. I think that an instant identification verification network would certainly make it more difficult for employees to claim I didn't know.
3) Requiring fraud resistant drivers licenses from the states with these tied into the verification database would improve the likelihood of making things more difficult for illegals as well.
4) Give legal authorization to willing local and state law enforcement agencies to detain and hold illegals using similar databases when executing traffic stops, arrests, etc. The feds should then promptly deport such individuals.
5) In a less serious vein, I thought states' pursuing tobacco litigation was pretty awful but using the idea of public harm, state attorney generals and their contracted minions should be able to file lawsuits against businesses who employ illegals for reimbursement of state expenditures on medical care, law enforcement, education, etc. Who knows, it may gain the Repubs the support of trial lawyers for a change.
"The rock upon which this proposal would inevitably flounder will be the first media report of a sixty-five year old, cherubic grandmother (and owner of a cleaning company) being carted off to jail for five years because she couldn't prove that she exercise due diligence in vetting her employees."
The INS can go after whichever violator they choose. Obviously they don't have to arrest every employer aiding and abetting immigration crimes. A few high-profile, cherry-picked cases would do(as it did in the financial scandals and arrests) and that 65 year old cherubic grandmother, would be looking for actual Americans/green card holders to hire to avoid the same fate.
...to determine how best to selectively enforce the law.
Odd: I'm having a deja vu moment, for some reason.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
Public and investor outrage forced the SEC to go after Rigas and Kozlowski and Ebbers and Lay and Skilling.
Now CEOs have to personally verify under penalty of fine and imprisonment that their companies' financial reports are on the up and up. Not many will flaunt the law and risk Lay's or Skilling's fate.
A few high profile "burnings at the stake" of eggregious illegal immigration enablers will render the same result.
No job, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, no government services, no reason to come.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
It would be like pushing a rope and he'd have to fire some people, but they'd do what they were told.
Here's the problem from a supervisory/managerial 'crats' perspective: Let's say a Repubican President orders a crackdown on illegals both crossing the border and at the employment level. Every supervisor/manager who carries that spear for the President goes on the hit list of every Congressman opposed to the crackdown and can look forward to some quality time before committees etc. He may also be targeted by those in his chain of supervision who don't agree with the President's initiative. His budget is going to get all sorts of unpleasant attention etc. In the unlikely event that a Republican President has enough authority over the government to control all the bureaucratic backbiting, all those 'crats also know that their heads are on the auction block in the next election and if a Democrat wins, their careers are forfeit. While Republicans can't seem to even preserve their prerogative to fire appointees, Democrats can and do reach far down into the merit system managerial ranks and either fire people or give them offices with no windows and a seat that flushes. They can and do make life a living Hell for supervisors, managers, and even technocrats. Even where the employees are union, the unions won't support the employee because they support the administration. Frankly, on an issue such as reforming immigration control, any 'crat who supported an initiative for agressive enforcement had better have his or her resume polished up and some savings come the next election.
In Vino Veritas
Tony Snow is the President's spokeman. He doesn't have the luxury of stating his own opinion. He has to push the President's agenda. He has said in the past that he "usually" agrees with the President (meaning he disagrees with him at times) and that makes his job easy... but he also has said that he'll be able to speak for himself after January 20, 2009. Take aim at the person who really is responsible for that comment and this bill: President Bush.
"The Democrats want to raise taxes. They only want to target the rich, they say. A word of advice to anyone in the middle class -- don't stand anywhere near that target."
-Fred Thompson
They could call this thing "The Illegal Alien Amnesty Act of 2007", and some people would still be stubbornly insisting "It is NOT an amnesty".
Bounty. $1000 for dropping a dime? Seems like a reasonable investment to me.
...I need you to explain exactly what you meant by this. In your next post (stateth the moderator).
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
I read it that if the Feds offered a $1000 bounty on each illegal, it would be much cheaper than actually having ICE do the legwork, ergo, a good investment.
I (and many others I presume) would do it gratis if I thought it would actually get a response.
I'd have hoped that Tony Snow, a man I had a lot of respect for, would have resigned in protest rather than apply the makeup to this sow.
A pig is still a pig even with Red lipstick.
http://abcradio.com/article.asp?id=409614&SPID=15663
"Is it any wonder that a lot of folks today feel like they’re being sold a phony bill of goods on border security? A “comprehensive” plan doesn’t mean much if the government can’t accomplish one of its most basic responsibilities for its citizens -- securing its borders. A nation without secure borders will not long be a sovereign nation.
No matter how much lipstick Washington tries to slap onto this legislative pig, it’s not going to win any beauty contests. In fact, given Congress’s track record, the bill will probably get a lot uglier -- at least from the public’s point of view. And agreeing to policies before actually seeing what the policies are is a heck of a way to do business.
We should scrap this “comprehensive” immigration bill and the whole debate until the government can show the American people that we have secured the borders -- or at least made great headway. That would give proponents of the bill a chance to explain why putting illegals in a more favorable position than those who play by the rules is not really amnesty."
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The absence of war is not peace.
Harry Truman
Think about how much it is worth to become an American or to come here permanently from poverty-stricken 3rd World countries. Then think about what the Senate penalties are. When you do, I think it is clear that this is amnesty because the penalties are so low that they are illusory.
To find the true messgae Kennedy and the Senate are REALLY sending to the American people... click the link and look at (ironically) his left hand...
The laughter just punctuates how much they enjoy it.
"Even when you fall on your face, you're still moving forward."
What would Reagan say?
http://avoiceofreason.wordpress.com/2007/05/18/the-immigration-bill-what...
what has happened to his hopeful, expansive, and inclusive view of America when compared to the dour, crabbed, and exclusive view that characterizes certain conservatives who would claim his mantle? Their view of the world could not be more alien to the spirit of Reagan.
loved pushing through ill thought and expensive legislation against the wishes of his party and the populace at large.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
We tried this approach under my administration, and congress didn't allocate the money for the enforcement part of our comprehensive bill. It is time for a new approach. We should give enforcement a chance while modernizing and streamlining our legal immigration. Once we have re-established control of our borders, we can revise our immigration limits to meet the needs of our country. America is and always should be a shining beacon on the hill, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't enforce our laws.
Do they have to go through this process or will they be escored in-allowed to stay to show how empty minded Americans are?
Never forget, David Souter was nominated by President George H.W. Bush
There will be air conditioned "safe zones" at the border for GLT illegals.
Real change requires real change. -Newt Gingrich
Is it fair we are not including more peoples from Africa, or India or China in this free $$$ reward and citizenship? Shouldn't the make up of all these new citizens more proportionally represent the races of the world? Is it fair to make this so heavily weighted toward white Hispanic types?
This is worth about $250k lifetime for every person given their Z1 and citizenship. Hardly seems right not making it more proportional.
Plus, how many Americans will be given Mexican citizenship in return? I go there several times a year and it would be a lot easier if I had dual citizenship and not have to pay for those work visas.
You should be wary of giving them any more bad ideas. There will likely come a time when objections are made by the right people (i.e. those the Dems and media can't easily demonize as racists and xenophobes) about how its unfair that immigration is disproportionately from Latin America. The solution will not be to reshuffle the current mix within existing levels of immigration, but rather to massively increase overall immigration once again to accomodate large-scale immigration from other areas.
No matter what the public wants, the answer from our elites with regards to immigration reform is always to increase the amount of immigration.
they can all just toss off. Sucks to be them.
After all, in our modern information age, we don't need no steenkin college graduates, nosireee, we need more illiterate campesinos.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
The White House was part of the deal so why does Tony Snow get Amnesty from the charge of lying while Mr. Graham is charged, convicted, and condemned. This is a bit unfair. You even say in your post that details are still up in the air. Senate staff can confirm nothing until it is on the paper.
Either both Snow and Graham are liars or just wrong. They may be just wrong. Mr. Graham is also under the impression that a fine will be paid during the "Z" visa period.
No Amnesty For Illegal Immigrants: Illegal immigrants who come out of the shadows will be given probationary status. Once the border security and enforcement benchmarks are met, they must pass a background check, remain employed, maintain a clean criminal record, pay a $1,000 fine, and receive a counterfeit-proof biometric card to apply for a work visa or "Z visa." Some years later, these Z visa holders will be eligible to apply for a green card, but only after paying an additional $4,000 fine; completing accelerated English requirements; getting in line while the current backlog clears; returning to their home country to file their green card application; and demonstrating merit under the merit-based system.
Source
If this is true than there will be fines, so it is not amnesty. Amnesty is a pardon, or complete wiping clean of the record with no penalty and no proof of intent to follow the law. However, I want to see the actual bill before I make a final decision.
I will not split hairs and call one a liar and say the other was merely wrong. Both may just be wrong about what will appear in the final bill. This was just a preliminary outline. The vote next week will be on S.1348, which is a Democrat bill with no Republican co-sponsors.
Conservatism without a conscience is an ideology without a purpose.
Once the border security and enforcement benchmarks are met, they must pass a background check, remain employed, etc
And if they don't? If they just ignore the whole thing?
What are we gonna do, deport them?
snicker
The pretense here is that THIS TIME, darn it, we really mean it. We are serious. We are going to start enforcing the law!
If you believe this then you are one of the 0.000001% of Americans who does.
give law enforcement the authority to ask about immigration status and require businesses to check all their employees.
Yes, they will be deported if they don't pass the background check.
Conservatism without a conscience is an ideology without a purpose.
Because to me, that is exactly what this law is. Legislating a class of humanity that can never hope to live above their own subsistence. For the profit of others. Except with he Gov't master responsible for the basic health and education...
I haven't read the language, but what are the implications for the minimum wage? Will employers be able to pay them less than the minimum wage required for legitimate US citizens?
Hello?
Wouldn't that create an entire segment of US-based jobs that US citizens would then be ineligible to even apply for? (since the employer is req'd by law to pay them a higher wage than the line of workers around the block wanting the work for $2/hr) Hello? This thing on????
Outsourcing is a threat to me right now, and now you're telling me that I can't even pick fruit for a living after pulling the rug out from under my career? For the love of all that's ... In-sourcing????????
[first post - swore off, then walked away from DC five years ago and this issue even woke me up. (R) has finally dug a hole it can't dig out of.]
I heard on TV that the bill gives IN STATE tuition to illegals. Putting them above our own citizens who are out of state.
Real change requires real change. -Newt Gingrich
that McCain and Kyl arguing before the coming out party and McCain using language not allowed here to force Kyl to accept the "compromise". McCain can kiss it goodbye and I for one am grateful, his numbers should drop like a dead weight. I hope he feels about this legislation as he feels about the Iraq war and I quote "I would rather lose an election then lose a war". The war over illegal immigration has just begun and he will lose the election over it.
Cornyn will vote against.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
even the amnesty for unlawful entry--it is the amnesty for tax evasion, forgery, identity theft, fraud, and many other felonies. To say such legislation undermines the rule of law and makes the United States a nascent banana republic is an understatement.
I really don't know what the deal is with Graham. I wish his primary opponent the best of luck, and frankly if he were to go down in the general it would not matter a bit, either.