Virginia Tech Open Thread.
No funny comment from me this go-round.
By Moe Lane Posted in Breaking News — Comments (60) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Update by Jeff 3:30pm: Here's the chronology, as best I can determine it from the various reports:
ca. 7am: Shooter kills one student in dormitories. Dorms are locked down by 8am, with nobody in or out of buildings or individual rooms Apparently only the dorm in which the shooting occurred was locked down, and no further action was taken due to students being "in transit" to their 8am classes (h/t msh). Lots of good that did.
Approximately one hour after the lockdown was begun, lockdown is ended, with (clearly) nobody in custody.
Shortly thereafter, the shooter crossed campus to an academic building, where he killed 31 more in a classroom.
This is very rudimentary, but it represents the best information that I've seen to date, as well.
As you undoubtedly know by now, Virginia Tech has had an atrocity inflicted upon it by a murderous gunman. The death toll is currently at least 30. Our prayers and good wishes for the victims and their families.
Please feel free to provide links to news updates, support services or appropriate charities in comments. Also: no fingers pointed, but please hold off grinding any and all axes on this thread.
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Virginia Tech Open Thread. 60 Comments (0 topical, 60 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
...Instapundit is reporting that a reader of his, an attorney in Virginia, let him know that VTU is a gun-free campus and that a recent attempt to allow guns on campus didn't get through.
While it's certainly impossible to say that this tragedy could've turned out different had that bill passed -- it likely isn't going to provide any fodder for the anti-gun folks. Just goes to show that banning guns doesn't necessarily equate to banning violence.
but by administrative policy. From what I've been able to glean from the Code of Virginia.
At Tech, firearms are banned on campus through the university rules and code of student conduct, as they are at U.Va.
Recall that the Roanoke Times thought it was a "public service" to publish the names of people holding concealed carry permits.
Abridged by administrative policy.
====
"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." -- James Madison
are trying to twist this around. I've heard several of the students interviewed make the argument, "If only we had stricter laws against automatic weapons, the gunman couldn't have done this." It's a bad argument -- someone mentally unstable enough to do something this gruesome would have been just as dangerous with a black powder revolver or a bowie knife. But that's what I've heard in the news coverage so far. And I've seen only LIMITED discussion of how the campus gun law might have contributed to the horror of this massacre.
I hope redstate posters dont just start speculating that this is terror related. They are doing that over at lucianne and they look ridiculous. Right now it appears that it was a guy, who happened to be an asian-american, who was looking for his girlfriend.
VTU is a gun-free zone. The utter ridiculousness of gun laws. Seriously.
Three words matter right now - Let us pray.
I look forward to hearing how this timeline worked - two hours is a long time.
Yes, I'm a Democrat. No, I don't hate Republicans.
...the first shooting consisted of one victim. Tragic and awful as that is, I think it's entirely plausible that law enforcement wouldn't be able to locate or apprehend a shooter within 2 hours of something like that happening.
While it's easy to say, with the benefit of hindsight, that they should've locked down the campus, swarmed the campus with officers, etc. etc. based on the first shooting, I think we need to have some sympathy for how massive an undertaking that would've been. This is not a high school. It's a large campus with 25,000 students.
We'll need to wait to learn more and understand what actions were taken once the first shooting was discovered. But I can imagine why they wouldn't have considered it the rampage it ended up becoming.
> While it's easy to say, with the benefit of hindsight, that they should've locked down the campus, swarmed the campus with officers,
One student said they were all in lock down with police on the campus, the lock was removed, and the second set of shootings happened.
That's not my understanding. I understood them to say that lockdown happened after the second shooting. The first shooting was before classes started, so they couldn't have put them in lockdown.
The bottom line is that kids were going to class without ever hearing about the first shooting.
Yes, I'm a Democrat. No, I don't hate Republicans.
Of a lockdown being released after the first shooting, but who knows if any of this is accurate at this point.
---
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman
This is the quote, from www.cbsnews.com:
Aimee Kanode, a first-year student, said the shooting happened on the 4th floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. The resident assistant in Kanode's dormitory knocked on her door about 8 a.m. EST to notify students to stay put.
"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again."
Oh - I read that as saying that her dorm was locked down. I guess it will take a while for the facts to get out and be clear.
Anyway, let us pray.
Yes, I'm a Democrat. No, I don't hate Republicans.
Just said in the press conference that only the dorm where the first shooting happened was locked down. He said they had no reason to lock down classes as the call came in when students were "in transit" to their first 8 oclock class.
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain
This one will end up in the textbooks.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
It seems there were at least two people killed at the dorm, no mention of whether more were wounded there or not. But there is an on-campus police force and PA systems. One would think that two dead with no shooter would be grounds to lock down the campus. Simple gunfire on campus would be way out of the norm and grounds to lock things down until the shooter was caught.
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. - Douglas Adams
I would expect that information from official channels will be very slow (in comparison to our desire for instantaneous total info, as if this were a CSI or L&O episode), while law enforcement and forensic experts do their job, which does require time and careful work, and it requires measuring words while you have only established a partial fact base. God bless those good people, and Godspeed their hands.
My prayers are toward the victims, their families and loved ones, and the entire VT family.
But there are 2 things I very much want to know. (1) who the shooter was, (2) what was his motive. I'm keeping my thoughts to myself regarding motive. But they are not nice thoughts.
some people they do look good on paper. I just hope this tragedy isn't used by the Anti gun crowd to do damage to the second amendment
Will the Democrats have the guts to try and ban guns again, which was one of the things that got them knocked out of power in 1994?
I'm speechless. As a college student, you just don't think about these things happening. You worry about exams, homework, girls, where to party, etc..but you don't worry about school shootings. I feel like this is a nightmare and if I pinch myself I will wake-up.
http://michiganformccain.blogspot.com/
"In war, my dear friends, there's no such thing as compromise. You either win or you lose."
-John McCain
I, too, am a college student. This is scary because it can happen anywhere. I think we can safely conclude that one of the lessons of this tragedy will be that colleges need to refine their security policies. The fact that the school didn't go into lockdown after the first shooting is disturbing.
Yes, I'm a Democrat. No, I don't hate Republicans.
My advice is to wait at least 48 hours before anyone reaches any conclusions or posits any kinds of conclusions on this event. Before you speak -- think -- and realize that nobody knows anything yet except how horrible this was.
The news reports are changing every hour. Lets wait until we have all the facts (or as many as can be gathered).
"I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way."
John Paul Jones (letter to M. Le Ray de Chaumont,16 Nov.1778)
It took Paul Harris (KMOX 1120am St. Louis) the ‘moderate’ that follows Rush at 2:00pm CDT all of 30 seconds to link this truly horrific event to the NRA convention held in St. Louis over the weekend.
I’m sure that the MSM is in hot pursuit…
The "moderates" have already reached their conclusions. We already know that.
..and add your own 2-bit observation, check out Jack Thompson'spathetic attempt to use this tragedy to further his cause and just how much of an ass that makes him.
Evil prevails only when good men do nothing.
im sure it being exploited already. here is a cut and pasted comment section from the Washington Post website. Dont ask me why i go there.
Rove is brainstorming right now no doubt on how this can be blamed on Clinton.
By hairguy01 | Apr 16, 2007 2:16:55 PM | Request Removal
Too damn many guns in this country!!!!Name another country where so many innocent students are killed in schools!!
By logcabin1836 | Apr 16, 2007 2:17:03 PM | Request Removal
Didnt a student post that it was a lovers quarrel? There is always some stupid relationships on campus where youve got an abuser beating up on his girlfriend. If this is the case, gotta say I agree with gun control. There are some stupid people Americans with ill will in their hearts running around this country, the last thing they need is a gun, or the rights to carry one. Here in NY state, gun control is a fact of life, and I am sure there are a lot less killings because of it.
By scheduler | Apr 16, 2007 2:17:15 PM | Request Removal
Please pray for the family of friends of the victims! VirginiaConserv ... hit the nail on the head. We need to get back to being a community and civil service but not as a career driven society. We need to raise up our kids looking up to the local heros ... teachers, ministers, police, firemen, military ... just to name a few. We need to teach our kids responsibility, compassion, humility, patience, respect, fairness and courage. Everything in a great society comes back to this.
By pembroke_d | Apr 16, 2007 2:17:29 PM | Request Removal
this should not be about security this should be about weapons access and ownership
By fixbone | Apr 16, 2007 2:17:32 PM | Request Removal
Thankfully the gunman is dead. It will save us all the hand-wringing and excuse-mongering as well as the expense of a trial and appeals.
Is some grieving relative, curlers in her hair, or cigarette hanging out of his mouth, (yes I know the race of the shooter) to tell us just how ‘good a boy he was.’ No modern day tragedy in America is complete without it…
Once the perp starts to act, the only way to stop a psychotic killer, who is willing to die, is the rapid application of return fire by whoever is near — Cop, civilian, military, whomever. The more people who are nearby and capable of delivering return fire, the fewer and less serious the injuries to all. People need to be willing to act, to commit, to save others.
Sadly, gun free zones do not allow that option.
It seems like a few of the VT students may have learned, they defended, locking and barricading doors, their quick actions may have saved more.
There was a highschool shooting in Oregon a couple of years ago. If I recall correctly, the gunman's name was Kip Kinkle. The rampage stopped when two of the students jumped him while he was reloading. Had they waited for the police, the carnage would have been a lot worse. I don't think it's a coincidence that they were both Boy Scouts. The notorious shoe-bomber was taken down by a flight attendant and a couple of unarmed passengers.
What stops a situation like this isn't necessarily a gun. What it takes is someone who understands the need for quick action and is willing to risk life and limb to save others. That is, it takes a hero. Sometimes that person's carrying a gun, sometime he's unarmed, and sometimes he/she is wearing a business suit and is armed with a coffee pot full of boiling water. I'm just glad there was someone there with the means and the will to bring it to an end, before even more people were hurt. I only wish it could have happened sooner.
My prayers go out to the families.
We had a sniper on the HUB lawn who shot and killed two students a couple of years ago. After the shots another student tackled the shooter and got stabbed in the process. What's puzzling to me is how the shooter today managed to get so many rounds off without anyone stepping in. If I'm not mistaken there were upwards of 50 shots fired and they found two 9mm. That takes some reloading, no?
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain
for the Virginia Tech shooting tragedy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Virginia_Tech_shooting
Details noted there are apparently being updated as they become available.
says that he used either two 9mm handguns or a 9mm and a .22 caliber handgun. Either way it only notes 2 handguns.
I don't have a lot of experience with guns, so what do I know, but it is hard for me to imagine someone killing 33 people and wounding 27 just with 2 handguns. I was expecting to hear some sort of "assault rifle" reference in the chain of events.
I'm sure more details will unfold that will better explain what happened.
is what seems to be the latest in the news. And yes, that much carnage with 2 handguns (small caliber) does imply that the person was a decent marksman and that he was particularly brutal, and truly wished to kill lots of people. As bad as Columbine was, they had alot more firepower and could have done alot more damage. This guy, it seems, spared no one, where other shootings of this type at least seem to be somewhat selective.
Whoever this guy was, he was a complete psycho.
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. - Douglas Adams
....of extra clips, but as long as there was little active resistance, he could have reloaded and fired into a crowded classroom for quite a while.
He was indeed looking to kill people because he had to have shot them at point-blank range, with almost no resistance. 9mm cartridges are barely even useful in defensive handguns unless you're *close*, within 10 meters, from a handgun.
Most 9mm weapons have muzzle energies of less than 350 ft/lbs, which means that you have to be a really good shot, at very close range, or a very determined murderer to kill people with them.
They're primarily last-ditch, defensive rounds. So if this guy was using a 9mm pistol as his offensive weapon, he decided to kill as many people as possible long before he ever arrived at the scene.
And without a 9mm he might have just as well used a big knife.
I've never used a 9mm as a primary weapon of choice - it's a fallback for defensive purposes, or for use as a secondary weapon when the primary is out of ammunition or otherwise FUBAR.
Inside a classroom is the type of close quarters in which a 9mm would be effective, though - especially a crowded one.
This just sickens me. Yuck.
But my main point is that the weapon he chose was not even the most "effective" weapon for the job, and without it he could have achieved much the same result with a dummy pistol and a big knife, or a baseball bat.
He wanted to kill a lot of people and it's clear that he managed to get a lot of people to capitulate. I've yet to hear any stories about anyone resisting, which I think is just as sick, especially given the firepower he apparently had.
They were sitting ducks, and even willing sitting ducks.
My God!
Gunman didn't say a single word
But within seconds the source of the sound became clear, when a gunman entered the lecture hall and shot the professor before turning his guns on students.
“He didn’t say a single word the whole time,” said Perkins. “He didn’t say get down, he didn’t say anything. He just came in and started shooting.”
Perkins and his classmates instinctively fell to the ground, turning over desks to create barriers between themselves and the shooter, who seemed to be firing randomly.
“He started shooting around,” Perkins recalls. “I’m not sure how long it lasted. It felt like a really long time, but was probably only a minute or so.”
Perkins said the most striking thing about the shooter was his stoic demeanor.
“He looked like, I guess you could say, serious," he told MSNBC TV hours after the incident. "He didn’t look frightened at all, he didn’t look angry. Just a straight face.”
Perkins' first thoughts were of survival — and the suffering of his mother if he didn’t make it. He tried to think of a course of action, but he was blocked in place by two overturned desks.
When the gunman finally left, Perkins and two other students, one of them bleeding from a wound to the arm, tried to brace the door closed to prevent his return.
“He started to try to open the door again, and then tried to shoot through the door, four, five, maybe six shots,” remembers Perkins. “Fortunately none of those shots hit anyone.”
than to live the rest of your life with all the things you could or should have done rattling around in your head. In the post - 9-11 world, you'd think that people would have figured out the simple caluculus; if you do noting, you will die, if you do something, you might die, if you do something, most won't die, but if you are one of them, at least it was an honorable death.
In Vino Veritas
I know probably it isn't the intent, but you come dangerously close to assigning blame to the survivors.
If you look at most the witness accounts, they had no idea what was happening. They didn't recognize the gunshots and were not warned by the school until the shooting was done. It looks like they were not sure of what was going on until the gunman entered their classroom. Many of them had no idea what was coming.
Saying they would be better off dead for not having stopped what happened is pretty unfair. Were their blunders along the way that may have saved more people, sure. Should those that made them feel responsible for what happened? No. The shooter was responsible for what happened, no matter what anyone else did or didn't do.
And I don't think I could say these kids didn't die honorably. Given where they were and why they were there, I say that these were all admirable kids, and fine citizens the US can be proud of. They were there trying to improve themselves, and in doing so, improving others around them. The simple fact that they were honorable people, I think, makes their deaths honorable.
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. - Douglas Adams
or a .22 and a 9, not much difference to a semi-skilled marksman. When my department transitioned from a revolver to a Sig .40cal., I could combat-load a fresh magazine in less than 3 seconds, after 1 day of training. If he had 12 round magazines, and at least 6 magazines, 2 reloads after expending the first magazine in each weapon, and he's got the use of 74 rounds, including the first two in the guns. And you weren't alone in your expectation of an "assault weapon". Fox News interviewed an "expert" sometime after 12:30pm today who opined that the shooter must have had an AK-47 or M-16, and the news reader chimed in with the thought that the shooter was more than likely someone in the military or with military experience.
regarding the guns used. The news reader asked the former FBI agent how effective a person could be with these types of pistols, how much training they would need. The response was along the lines of "well, you can empty the magazine in about 8 seconds and reload in 3, so the damage you can do is extraordinary and he could have killed them all quickly" which left me wondering how an unskilled person is going to accurately fire that many shots that fast at that many different people and deal with gun jams.
The 9mm I learned to fire with was horrible about jamming if the bullets weren't put in all the way back, made me understand a bit more why war movies always show the guys smacking the magazines on their helmets before using them.
already a no-gun zone. Not sure what additional restrictions folks want. Metal detectors and security queues, like a big city high school? The District of Columbia has a notoriously "tough" set of gun laws but it certainly hasn't stopped the mayhem. Those bent on homicidal destruction usually don't worry too much about gun possession charges, any more than Al Qaeda operatives worried about the FAA's pilot licensure requirements.
Needless to say, as a U.Va. graduate and honorary Virginian, my condolences go out to all Hokies today.
Any bets on how much longer it will be before this is all George W. Bush's fult?
to bring it all around to Bush or the government. How these people can think such things is beyond preposterous.
Oh, and by the way, the top-rated diary at dKos is relating the tragedy in Blacksburg today to a day in Iraq.
Wow.
Fides non in bonus intentions , tamen in bonus factum
For more common sense conservatism, visit the Show Me Conservatism blog.
one kid interviewed in the Washington Post said the shooter came in the class room, immediately shot the professor in the head and then started shooting the kids. (The kid interviewed was sitting in the back of the class and hit the floor.) I'd like to think I'd be brave, but I think my natural reaction would be to hit the floor too. You would just be in absolute shock.
said we should wait awhile before drawing conclusions. I am somewhat sympathetic with the campus police re the first shooting and not shutting down the campus. The Chief said in the presser that they thought the first shooting was a "domestic" incident and that the shooter was fleeing the state.
Lots of people shoot their significant others everyday without rushing over to the mall to kill 30 more people. The police would have been securing the crime scene and putting out an APB.
That said, the college officials at the press conference seemed curiously unaffected by the whole thing to me. As a parent, something about their attitude just seemed a bit callous...
Ok, so the main gist of this whole tragedy, at least from the media’s perspective, is that Virginia Tech isn’t run as a police state. There were no armed guards in every room, no pat downs or metal detectors, and the administration didn’t foresee a second shooting after beginning to investigate the first. What is the lesson to be learned? Every university campus, no matter the size, is to be transformed into a police state. There will be a military presence, armed and visible, ID tags implanted in every student, faculty and staff, video surveillance of every building, room, nook and cranny. From now on, universities will employee covert agents to infiltrate the student and faculty populations, find potential dangerous elements and weed them out. This strategy will eventually trickle down to the K-12 school system. Then, and only then, will all the children be safe.
My younger sister is a sophmore at Virginia Tech, and my cousin is a junior. I first heard of the shooting around 11 while I was at work. At the time, there was only 1 known casualty and 7 or 8 injuries. I tried calling my sister but kept getting an "all circuits are busy" message. I wasn't really worried - I just wanted to make sure my sister and cousin were ok.
A few minutes later I got a call from my older sister, a Virginia Tech alumna. She said that she had spoken with my sister and that she and my cousin were fine. She told me that my cousin was in Nelson Hall, the building that the second shootings took place in, and said the gunshots sounded like a machine gun. I thought that was a little strange given that only a few people had been hurt, but didn't give it much thought and was glad to hear that my family was safe. As the events of the day unfolded it made much more sense.
I spoke with my younger sister, and from what she tells me, the first shooting took place a little after 7 this morning in the dorm. The gunman went looking for his girlfriend who had recently cheated on him/broke up with him. He found that his girlfriend had already left for class and proceeded to shoot her roommate. The RA heard all of the commotion, I assume before the gunshot, and went to see what was going on. The gunman shot the RA as well. The roommate and the RA both died in the hospital.
The University believed it to be an isolated incident and did not lock down the campus for long or notify the student body. They believed the gunman was now off campus and proceeded accordingly.
About two hours later the same gunman entered Nelson Hall, which is primarily an Engineering building but also has some Gen Ed and business classes. A classroom heard gunshots and blocked the door with a table. The gunman tried to force himself into the room but was unable to. He shot four or five rounds through the door which went through the table. Fortunately no one in that room was shot.
The gunman proceeded to the next room, which was a German class. This is where most of the causualties occured. From what I understand, he shot a professor in the head, then started shooting all of the students. He seemed very calm and calculated. He was apparently laughing as he shot them. Of the twenty-something students in the room, only four survived.
I'm not sure how much of this is fact and how much is speculation - it's just what I've heard from my sister.
Please keep the friends and families of all involved, as well as the students and faculty of Virginia Tech, in your prayers.
It sounds like at least part of this may be true. The Washington Post confirms that a female and a male RA were found dead in the dorm. It gives the name and personal information about the RA.
Thanks for very informative posts. Beats the MSM's campaigns to hang the college authorities and oulaw guns.
Recieved both my undergrad and grad degrees in bburg. Perhaps the most special place in my life. I am so sad for those lost, and also for those who will never experience the unfettered freedom to learn that Va Tech provided. There will be sadness and shadow for decades to come. What a waste.
"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of weak minds"
When do we petition the government to declare this week of April a national holiday week? April 16, April 19, April 20. Were running out of days.
R.J.
Good to keep in perspective, though, that if this were China, they'd possibly be harvesting the organs like the bodies were a bunch of busted pinatas.
__________________
When taunted by a Liberal in Parliament that he was going to die "on the gallows or of a vicious social disease," Disraeli replied "That depends on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Liviu Librescu – Professor and hero. Gave his life trying to defend students.
http://www.esm.vt.edu/php/person.php?id=10023
Ryan “Stack” Clark – Student, resident assistant, hero. Age 22, Martinez, GA. Lost his life responding to the dorm room shooting.
This could have very well been prevented by certain laws and measures put in place at colleges and universities across the U.S. This should have never happened, since we are living in modern times. It shows a fundamental lack of interest in the psychological background of a manic depressive student, whose family, friends, and even university administration, failed to address. The answer is very simple. Make it mandatory that upon admittance to ANY college or university a psychological evaluation be made by college/university health administrators. We pay good amounts of money for their paychecks, so it's about time they started giving back to us. Secondly, if the said student is found to be psychologically damaged, he/she should be coerced indirectly to get therapy. If they do not comply, he/she should be placed on academic probation from any place of higher learning indefinitely, until he/she seeks help and gets it. Once proof of this is given to the college/university, he/she can come back to school. Also, every term/semester the on-campus psychologist and psychiatrist should do up-to-date evaluations on the person in question. If they feel that the said person is slipping, they should have the power to place the student back on indefinite academic probation.
"One Monday in April." CNN's calling it the single worst shooting in American history. That's saying something. I have a couple of friends who go to school down there, and they're really shaken up. Prayers and thoughts with those in Virginia.
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain