Today was the final (half) day of the 2009 ICCC, followed by flying home; I promised to toss up a few thoughts, which I’ll keep terse and to the point. Once I get caught up on other things (including some sleep), I’ll try to provide some more over-arching thoughts on it all. But for this evening, I just want to note highlights along the lines of…. things that were new today.
The opening breakfast keynote was given by former New Hampshire Governor (and White House Chief of Staff 1989 – 1991) John Sununu. Governor Sununu also holds a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering, so he’s certainly professionally qualified to comment upon the whole AGW thing.
He exercised some old memories when he noted that the grand-daddy of all “disaster-movie” computer models is the infamous “Club of Rome” economic/world forecast that was emitted back in 1972. To make a longer story short, the Club of Rome forecasts used complicated equations and input parameters, and predicted a disastrous future for mankind based on shortages of material resources; naturally, the timing of this was very important. But it was quickly noted that the “Club of Rome” models were very sensitive (in outcome) to very small changes in the input parameter values, and that small changes in input parameters could change the outcome qualitatively – predicting very rosy results.
As Steve McIntyre had noted in his Monday presentation, there is a very similar situation with the (admittedly moving target) of the present climate models; small perturbations in input values produce very large output changes – the models lack robustness.
This lack of robustness (and this is me saying this now) is a characteristic of mathematical descriptions that are poor and unpredictive.
Governor Sununu noted that the main “improvement” of the present climate models (vs. the Club of Rome models) is that the new climate models are so complex that they are obscure and too-abstract to debate.
Two very good quotes about the AGW alarmists:
“…. resonating self-adulation….”
“…. a well-orchestrated symphony of effort….”
During the technical sessions, Chris Essex, a mathematician at the University of Western Ontario, gave an intricate (but very interesting) talk on many problems (many of which have been personally battled by this writer) that arise when one attempts to construct mathematical models of complex systems.
Since this is supposedly a more general audience that will be reading this, I’ll just note one salient point. He noted that the climate models are empirical – that is, they are constructed based on data and the development of equations connected directly to that specific data…. rather than from previously-known (and well-understood) equations that could be used in this problem. Models of this sort rely heavily on “parametrization” (that is, not just the choice of parameters used, but also on the specific quantitative values chosen for them for use in the model)…. when these parameters do not in fact correspond to anything solid and previously-known. This is often not a show-stopper…. since engineering models can be based on controlled experiments; however, climate models cannot be based on controlled experiments, and can only be back-fit to the available recorded data from the past.
Now we’ll switch to my thoughts from experience on this sort of thing. “Models” of this sort can indeed be useful – provided you are trying to “dehydrate” a simple description that will only apply to the extant data that you have on the table. Since the model equations are a purely mathematical construct that truly cannot be used beyond the boundaries of where one possesses data…. one cannot really use them outside of those bounds. For example, the ability to adjust a model to fit previously-measured data endows it with essentially no predictive abilities beyond just that data. Back-fitting does not endow a model with predictive ability – in fact, it rarely does so, and pretending that it does leads to comical results.
This is clearly the situation with the “prediction” curve that was presented yesterday by Professor Akasofu and that I included via a photograph that I took of this slide. If one splices out a small set of data and fits a curve to it, the “model” that was created applies only to the region of the data – any extrapolations (or predictions) outside of that region of data are completely devoid of content.
There’s another subtle aspect of mathematical modeling that I wanted to note this evening, since I’ve encountered it so many times in the past and I realized in New York that (when it comes to the “official” climate models) I’m seeing it again.
It can be relatively easy to take a very small part of a problem, construct a mathematical model for that aspect, and produce a good result. This can be done for several different small problems, producing equally good results.
However, all too often, the obvious “next step” is to combine all those smaller piece-models together to try to model something much larger. This seems logical, but in reality it’s a nonsense-based disaster. Since the pieces are at best semi-empirical and have no relationship to each other, the throwing-together of the little models into one big model always produces results which are comical. They just don’t predict anything because they produce silly results.
I can think of several notable disasters in electrical engineering that I’ve seen first-hand that resulted from this kind of non-understanding of this sort of thing.
The “climate models” all seem to have been constructed in a similar fashion – tiny little things were modeled with good fitting to what data was available. But then all the pieces have been crammed together into a much bigger model. I would expect this to produce insane and laughable results – and this is indeed the case. It’s just that the IPCC calls these sorts of results “scientific predictions” (sic)….
I’ll close with one item from today’s closing lunch (which I had to leave early in order to catch my flight home). Jay Lehr from Heartland opined that he had drawn five important going-forward conclusions from the event – what he called the “RTLCC” quintet:
1) Those not jumping onto the AGW bandwagon should be called not “climate skeptics,” but “climate Realists;
2) We need to mobilize quickly to start talking about “cap and trade” for what it truly is – “Tax and trade”;
3) The collateral damage that will be caused by “mitigation methods” in the developing world is not a matter of aesthetics or even a living-standard cut; for the developing world, this is truly a matter of Life and death;
4) To effectively counter the AGW propaganda machine, it is necessary to talk to the Consumer in short sound bites;
5) If right now we were to find a magic technology that would let us Capture and make-disappear all of the CO2 being emitted, the total effect on the world’s temperature would be…. nothing; CO2 has a very weak effect on temperature (compared to other factors), and variations in the climate and temperature are driven by nature, not by man.
I’ll stop there for today (ZZZZZZZZ) and hope that these dispatches and videos we’ve been contributing from New York have been useful and enlightening. As I noted at the top, when I can get my sleep supply replenished and catch up on other things, I’ll try to go back through my notes and pen some broader but more over-arching thoughts.
One thing I will note to conclude for tonight. Perhaps the most enjoyable aspect of this event was that the “science” parts of the event were truly in the form of a “scientific conference.” Different people presented different views of various causes-and-effects; there were disagreements, but they were all reasonable scientific differences that then point (because of the discussions) to ways to further parse, study, and analyze the problem. This is how “science” is truly done.
For some reason, there was an expectation in certain quarters (such as the New York Times) that this event would be an event like that farce going on in Copenhagen – where today the latest “scare-’em-gasless” model result is a forecast (sic) of a one-meter rise in sea level by the end of the century (one suspects that the tweaking of a couple of parameters would lead to a forecast of half the seas disappearing, but I digress). The purpose in New York was to compare studies and results, and discuss them.
It’s not to get everyone together to agree on the lock-step talking points to take home.
We can leave that streetwalker version of science to Al Gore, James Hansen, and that whole roster of poseurs….
Good night.
Steve Maley
Neil Stevens
Thank you
techsan (Diary) Tuesday, March 10th at 9:41PM EST (link)..for the work you’ve put into sharing what you’ve learned! Same goes for Moe and all of the “new media” that attended!
Is it too much to “hope” that the AGW farce will be discredited before it’s too late?
In the end, all we have on our side of the debate are facts and history.
Fatigue
Skanderbeg (Diary) Tuesday, March 10th at 10:11PM EST (link)Thanks; I’ll feel better about it when I get some rest. Even two or three days of “filing” after midnight and then having to be in the seat and ready for the 7am breakfast sessions was a drain.
On your last question, you’ve probably heard me opine from experience that I sense that the Russians are in a big hurry – since they want to advance an agenda as quickly as possible and hopefully get someplace before they collapse.
I sense the same from the AGW types. They’re in Copenhagen this week emitting new alarming predictions to try to move things forward quickly and without thought….
I've been following both
techsan (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 6:50AM EST (link)And it leads me to consider if our world is moving toward a period of tectonic change….the likes of which will make the current liberal battles seem tame.
Nation states are desperate…Russia, as you pointed out. Our own governments is accumulating power. AGW agendas are operating globally to amass power as, as are “big labor” groups. And all of it is being done righteously in the names of “fairness”, and the “poor”, and the “unlucky”, etc. who will benefit…and perhaps the “leaders” of these movements are delusional enough to believe their own tripe, or they are saying whatever it takes to reach their ignoble goal.
I’m not an alarmist…just a guy trying to leave a relatively sane world for his kids. I’ve really enjoyed the past 8 years of somewhat family-friendly government…but I’m seeing family values rapidly thrown on the trash heap. Sad.
Uncertain, the future is.
In the end, all we have on our side of the debate are facts and history.
Short countering soundbites and "professionally qualified to comment"
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 9:42PM EST (link)One of the truly wonderful aspects of Common Law is that juries are not required to give certified by the court “experts” than they do any other witness.
Soundbites to counter are still ringing in the minds of even midwestern, not blue dawg democrats:
$4/gal gas
higher food prices
inability to have a quality American life with high energy prices
cold winter
more later
the whole global warming hoax is going pop culture
it is doomed
that’s why Obama is going to try and implement it via EPA regs
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Ditto. Thanks Skanderbeg...
roscopico (Diary) Tuesday, March 10th at 10:15PM EST (link)…and thanks Moe as well.
Did anyone at ICCC address the likelihood H2O will be popularized as a taxable emission? Surely if there is a “global warming” problem there are those who would advocate addressing the primary “greenhouse gas”.
Best regards,
roscopico
Im Himmel gibt’s kein Bier…
Many thanks.
skorrent1 (Diary) Tuesday, March 10th at 9:56PM EST (link)Wish I could have been there.
I love: “Back-fitting does not endow a model with predictive ability “! Reminds me of the caveat included in every honest prospectus: “Past results are no guarantee of future performance.” Every investor understands the logic behind this.
Math
Skanderbeg (Diary) Tuesday, March 10th at 10:14PM EST (link)That’s indeed how the financial people got in trouble, and I noted that off-the-record (contributors’ e-mail area
) yesterday.
If you have some “data” and want to fit a curve to it to get a useful way to reproduce that data (and the “places” between the data), that’s okay.
But when you take a “model” like that and use it outside the range of data…. well, who knows what’s going to happen. That just a content-free results that comes out.
You see this all the time in various engineering models – and the fingerprint is always an insane and ridiculous “result” outside the data range box. The AGW predictions are doing the same thing but people want to believe their own nonsense.
Hmmmm
pjshifty Wednesday, March 11th at 11:16AM EST (link)But, Skanderberg – I think you’re trying to have it both ways…to quote you…
So, can we use empirical relationships or can’t we? Or just the ones you want to use? Maybe you’re just tired and will straighten things out after a nap.
Hey, did any of those climate “realists” talk about the potential benefits of mitigation or the costs of pure adaptation, versus a more balanced approach that will be cheaper in the long run? Just curious…
Chicken with Marbles
Skanderbeg (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 9:13PM EST (link)Well, on that last, since in general there is nothing of a secularly-major nature to worry about, there needs to be no special planning for special AGW “outcomes.”
We need to a better job in general of planning for things that we know WILL happen at certain points – like major Gulf hurricanes and earthquakes in certain areas (hello, Memphis?). Katrina more than anything showed how this just didn’t happen because everyone knew that it HAD to happen eventually but could bring themselves to devote the advance scenario work because it was never sufficiently “imminent” to get people to devote the time to it.
There’s no contradiction in the discussion of empirical methods – that was laid out clearly in the discussion before the portion you quoted.
Empirical methods can be useful when you are trying to do something tactical – such as creating a function for some data points so you can convert the data into an equation form for further use. As long as you don’t get outside the data range, you are okay – but don’t think you can make predictions.
They are also useful as a starting point – such as the Brit who years back plotted the incidence of cholera patients in London during an outbreak and noticed clustering. The empirical result was that the clustering was around wells, indicating that drinking water somehow was a key factor. That was the problem-narrower that led to the identification of cholera as a bacterial infection that spreads in contaminated drinking water.
Okay, now back to the math. One of the biggest problems that afflicts mathematical modeling of any kind is giving the model too much credit for its abilities. If you are building empirical models (as per the above) you can fit data, and that’s as far as you can go.
Back in the 1980s, there was a disease outbreak in “modeling” of all sorts, driven largely by the availability of big computers. Since you could now solve against data to find piles of “coefficients,” there was a boom in the use of (empirical) power series and various polynomial fitting functions; this problem was exacerbated by the appearance of CAD tools that could actually generate polynomial equations for you.
Things got worse in the 1990s with the use of cubic splines and even Principle Component Analysis.
All of this allowed for the creation of spectacularly large and complex “models” for all sorts of things.
What quickly started to happen was that people started to think that they could actually use these models to predict things outside the range of data. In many fields, this caused multi-hundred-million-dollar electronics industry fiascoes at the rate of several a year.
In engineering, where the results were testable, the main problem was almost always one of believing the result rather than looking it, realizing it was silly, and then discarding the result. When your “model” predicts negative differential capacitance, the model is just WRONG (but in one case it took two years to get certain people to admit that this was the case – not that they had mysteriously discovered some “new physics” that amounted to overriding the Coulomb’s Law stuff you learn as a high school student taking physics).
That seems to be where we are with the AGW models – very complicated but empirical models are being run way beyond the bounds of where they have any data, and they are regularly producing “spectacular” results. But the results are becoming sillier and sillier – this indicates that the models are useless, not that the predictions MUST be so.
And in how
pjshifty Wednesday, March 11th at 11:20PM EST (link)many instances do know something WILL happen in business or government or anything else? Within what uncertainty band? The truth is we plan for problems are the greatest risk (certainty does not exist) – so why should global warming be any different. For example the Navy will be (maybe) spending $14B/year to build a new fleet of destroyers – what exactly WILL they be used for? The war between China and Taiwan? What is the certainty of that prediction? Hint: less certain that temps will continue to rise.
Yes, empirical models have been abused no doubt… of course lessons have been learned in last 20 years on how much you can depend on them. The science of model development and validation isn’t static either. But, I’m still confused you said “We don’t need to understand the physics to note a correlation that has predictive power.” and then moments later “you are okay – but don’t think you can make predictions.” and you see no contradiction?
As one who uses models to accurately predict engineering performance I can attest that they work well as long as you have the major physics included (but not necessarily every detail). How do you account for the accuracy of predictions made twenty years ago and since? (You didn’t really answer that charge below, now did you). Note that climate models are also testable, even though you suggest they aren’t. How far beyond the bounds are the empirical models being used? We need details to determine if that is true. Which modules? How are the results becoming “sillier”? Because they are closing the door on most alternate explanations for warming?
Chicken with Marbles
Skanderbeg (Diary) Thursday, March 12th at 8:41PM EST (link)There’s no contradiction, and I said that.
Empirical models can be useful if used with care. Qualitative models (e.g., sunspots, cholera) can be useful as pointers to further ideas, but of course don’t make quantitative predictions. Quantitative models can be useful for fitting existing data with the bounds of the data, but using outside those bounds is dangerous.
The “silly” model results are the ones coming out of Copenhagen this week, where we’re getting hot air (pun intended) about 1 meter sea level rises and 5C temperature rises. “Results” like that tell us that the empirical models are being used beyond their bounds.
There simply is not some large secular warming in progress. That can be demonstrated with real data – not glommed, processed, diced, adjusted non-data “data”….
Excellent
pjshifty Friday, March 13th at 10:06AM EST (link)looking forward to you providing us the data to prove your last point…or some actual proof that models are being used beyond their bounds – which ones?
I see Baghdad Bob is back. Hey there, pjshifty!
E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Friday, March 13th at 10:14AM EST (link)Missed you during your little sabbatical, dude.
Forgetting the AGW thing for a moment, how’s things down there? For you, for the country,e tc.
Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO
He's been digging out from all the snow
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, March 13th at 10:27AM EST (link)And trying to get communication back up after the ice storms.
Sorry. That was too hard to resist.
Actually quite
pjshifty Friday, March 13th at 11:17AM EST (link)the opposite – we’re having a really hot winter and the lowest snow totals in recorded history…wonder if that has anything to do with AGW?
Thanks for the link
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, March 13th at 3:19PM EST (link)Interesting quote:
“The succession of ‘megadroughts’ – droughts like the Dust Bowl but which lasted for decades at a time – that occurred in the West in Medieval times have also been linked to equally persistent La Nina-like conditions in the tropical Pacific.”
I had no idea Native Americans had such a problem with Global Warming. Thank God Native American activist and medicine man Al-igator Buffalo-gore got that situation straightened out.
Selective quoting
pjshifty Friday, March 13th at 3:51PM EST (link)trademark denialism – good work!
Of course here are the important parts you left out…
“However it is thought that the Sun was relatively strong at this time and volcanism weak which both would have resulted in positive radiative forcing of the climate system akin to rising greenhouse gases today. ”
or how about…
“In contrast to historical droughts, future drying is not linked to any particular pattern of change in sea surface temperature but seems to be the result of an overall surface warming driven by rising greenhouse gases. Evidence for this is that subtropical drying occurs in atmosphere models alone when they are subjected to uniform increases in surface temperature. ”
I’d suggest reading the whole thing.
This is so funny
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, March 13th at 8:36PM EST (link)I did read the whole thing. And I looked at my Magic Eight Ball, and asked it if it were true. It said, “Yes – definitely”, so I lit incense and prayed to my altar dedicated to Melissa Etheridge, Al Gore and Groucho Marx, and feel very comfortable that the whole thing is pretty well solved.
I didn’t deny – I took ACTION. Your bill is in the mail.
great thanks
pjshifty Friday, March 13th at 8:45PM EST (link)every little bit helps…
Hey sup
pjshifty Friday, March 13th at 11:09AM EST (link)how’s things with you – hey weren’t you going to put up a diary of your own on the subject – did I miss it?
OBE, my friend
E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Friday, March 13th at 11:27AM EST (link)Unfortunately, kind of like D’artagnan in the opener of the 1993 version of the Three Musketeers, i’ve taken on too many projects at once. I’ll get to that eventually. FWIW, I have been doing background on that – doing a much more thorough read of the source materials at IPCC, and trying to find intelligible stuff located within ManBearPig’s gravitational pull (i.e., the AGW evangelistic orgs in the USA).
You got any suggestions outside of IPCC that you feel present your case pretty well? As you know, I’m a whole lot more interested in low-level original research than I am on analysis, so keep that in mind as you point me that way.
Doing OK in the meantime though. Since last we crossed blades, I’ve been promoted to the front page here (Jan 1), which makes alot more demands on a person’s time than it looks on the outside. Meanwhile, I still have a job, and it’s crazy-busy where I’m at. Decent health, love life that is somewhat below insane, and a nephew in Iraq who is on the Iranian frontier, keeping plenty busy.
So what, is the summer winding up down there or still going strong? Plus, I don’t really keep up with Aussie politics that much. Last time I noticed, we had a pretty good conservative running the show. So what is up these days with you?
Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO
Hey EPU
pjshifty Friday, March 13th at 11:54AM EST (link)I think you have me confused with pliny, who seems to be still on sabbatical – guess I’m on watch for now. I’m a lot closer to you (Denver) so no worries about delayed responses. Hey, speaking of Australia, they sure are having a hot summer aren’t they? Wonder if that has anything to do with AGW??
Bu anyways – good for you on doing some reading – all of the papers are listed in the IPCC reports, but many of them may be behind journal firewalls. For free stuff, I’d suggest reading papers on websites of climate groups at NOAA, NASA GISS, NCAR, The National Academy of Sciences and the Met office in the UK – there’s also some stuff in BAMS and maybe PLoS. Happy reading…
Since we’re sharing, things are good here too – son is loving preschool, daughter just started walking, wife is great. Work is crazy busy and very popular – supposed to be writing a big paper right now. Better get back to it…
ouch - my bad
E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Friday, March 13th at 12:17PM EST (link)Funny, it’s a mix of confusions. It is you and me that have talked about AGW dueling, and I think I end up sparring with you and not pliny. But yeah, I had some of your bio confused with Pliny Down Under. But OK in my defense, you’ve been pretty lightly posting for a couple of months now.
Denver, then. God, no wonder. Alright, I’ll be checking some of that. I’ve already browsed quite a bit of NOAA and NASA.
Good to hear the family stuff. You know it’s trite-sounding, but if adversaries can relate even just a little on the personal level, then the sparring will often stick to head and body blows, and we get much less of the hammering kidney blows and the good old shots to the cods.
In other words, we can more easily forgive that our opponents their gullibility and desperate clinging to deeply flawed notions. As you and I no doubt view each other’s views.
Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO
Amen to that..nt
pjshifty Friday, March 13th at 12:33PM EST (link)Name change
Thomas_Hauber Wednesday, March 11th at 11:53AM EST (link)If anyone has noticed it is not global warming anymore. The coined phrase is climate change. I think mostly this has been adopted because of the cooling we have been experiencing in the past 10 years.
So what will the intelligencia call AGW now? Antropological Global Change (AGC)? Human Climate Modification (HCM)? Human Extraorinary Accelated Temperarture Change (HEAT)?
Hansen's wacky 1988 prediction
Pince_Nez Wednesday, March 11th at 1:26PM EST (link)But what if a 20 year old model turns out to be dead on?
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2006/2006_Hansen_etal_1.pdf
“The congressional testimony in 1988 (13) included a graph (Fig.
2) of simulated global temperature for three scenarios (A, B, and
C) and maps of simulated temperature change for scenario B. The
three scenarios were used to bracket likely possibilities. Scenario A
was described as ‘‘on the high side of reality,’’ because it assumed
rapid exponential growth ofGHGsand it included no large volcanic
eruptions during the next half century. Scenario C was described as
‘‘a more drastic curtailment of emissions than has generally been
imagined,’’ specificallyGHGswere assumed to stop increasing after
2000. Intermediate scenario B was described as ‘‘the most plausible.’’
Scenario B has continued moderate increase in the rate of
GHG emissions and includes three large volcanic eruptions sprinkled
through the 50-year period after 1988, one of them in
the 1990s.
Real-world GHG climate forcing (17) so far has followed a
course closest to scenario B. The real world even had one large
volcanic eruption in the 1990s, Mount Pinatubo in 1991, whereas
scenario B placed a volcano in 1995.”
“A man can always change things. That’s what makes him different from the barnyard critters.” Ma Stone (The Devil and Daniel Webster)
Hansen who?
Skanderbeg (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 8:55PM EST (link)Hansen quoting himself??
I’d feel pity for Hansen but for the damage he’s causing. He’s frantically spinning more and more alarming scenarios to try to pump air into a leaky balloon. The world isn’t falling apart (or even changing detectably), so his alarmism sounds shriller and shriller.
The reason I don’t feel pity is because folks like Mr. Gore and Mr. Hansen have essentially become pimps and turned “science” into a streetwalker. All this is going to end up doing is discrediting “science” in the eyes of the general public and further stifling research and innovation.
Gore and Hansen are doing to science what the wizards of Wall Street and Sand Hill Road did to finance….
Dead On?
ehosterman (Diary) Friday, March 13th at 11:11AM EST (link)Hanson’s Model -Scenario B predicted a 0.9 deg rise between 1960 and today.
Actual data from here:
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/
Shows an actual rise of approx 0.43 deg from 1960 to end of 2008. Also Hanson’s data showed an almost continuous increase in temperature, when actual temperatures have fallen since 2000.
.
Hard to see how you could classify that prediction as “dead on”.
You deserve a medal of some sort. nt
redneck_hippie (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 9:32PM EST (link)Medal
Skanderbeg (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 9:47PM EST (link)For what?
Enduring much ado about nothing? Myopic obsession with irrelevant minutia?
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 9:53PM EST (link)Indulging massive hubris, pride and arrogance?
Half of the states of GA, SC and NC were under the Atlantic for thousands of years, thousands of years before the first Chevy belched.
People can move inland.
Global warming saves homeless lives.
The remedy to save 50 feet of Manhattan would cost millions of African lives.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Wading through so many days
redneck_hippie (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 9:56PM EST (link)of complex presentations and articulating your analysis and insights so cogently.
Hearts and flowers!
that too - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 10:01PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Medal
Skanderbeg (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 10:35PM EST (link)Thanks GC and RH – much appreciated.
It was actually a very interesting event. The “political” stuff of course gets more publicity, since heat gets more publicity than light. But there was a lot of good hard-core science – physics, chemistry, mathematics, computation, etc. If I helped to convey some of this and provide some useful insights of my own…. well, that’s why they brought me there.
Yeah, I know, arguing the minutiae can be frustrating, but the readership deserves responses to much of this stuff.
I think you can also see in miniature in this how this whole thing plays out. It’s like trying to argue with ghosts. Nothing ever gets pinned down – the “argument” gets moved all over the place and runs in circles. The biggest advantage to letting that play out is that it inadvertently demonstrates how incoherent the argument for AGW really is….
heat gets more publicity...
redneck_hippie (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 10:39PM EST (link)gotta add that to my sig.
As Paul Harvey says (yes, he is still broadcasting from his new location) Good Day!
even this poll is BEHIND the curve - LINK
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, March 11th at 9:57PM EST (link)http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/03/11/record-high-number-think-media-are-exaggerating-global-warming
esp given the absence of the mention of the PRICE of correction
and remember the UK?
they rejected a TAX
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson