The Two Sentence Response to Chris Matthews on Evolution


This video of Chris Matthews’ interview with Congressman Mike Pence is making the rounds on several blogs. In the segment Pence cannot seem to give a coherent answer to Matthews’ question about evolution.

Mike Pence is a strong fiscal conservative and an official I have a lot of respect for. But this video illustrates why the ambivalence towards science (particularly evolution) demonstrated by too many conservatives is a needless distraction.

John McCain showed how easily this issue could be acknowledged, framed and dispensed with in two sentences:

“I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also.”

That providing a concise response on evolution continues to trip up some conservative political leaders is silly. Mike Pence is too effective a voice on many of the issues most conservatives care passionately about to find himself getting bullied by the likes of Chris Matthews.

The sooner Pence and others calibrate their message along the lines of McCain’s response the sooner they can use these media opportunities to talk about the fiscal and national security issues they would rather be discussing.

Crossposted at Conservatives for Science


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My problem with McCain's statement

dvdmsr (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 12:46PM EST (link)

is that liberals often want to make acceptance of evolutionary theory as a pre-requisite for a belief or faith in science or scientific theory, and it is not.

Opposition to evolution does not preclude acceptance of science. We need not sacrifice our faith in God in order to have faith in science. They are not mutually exclusive as liberals like Mathews would have the public believe. McCain’s statement whether sincere or not would represents a sell out to this liberal meme for many including myself.

My take on Pence is that he recognized Mathew’s attempts to trip him up, and refused to sell out or at least fall for the trap.

I think only someone who struggles with the concept of an infallible or literal Word of God would gravitate towards McCain’s response rather than Pence’s. This is not meant as an insult, as I have struggled with it myself. But, I have come to the following conclusions about my faith in God and in science:

I believe in an infinite and infallible God, I believe God created all things, including the laws of nature, and can destroy or change all things in part or whole at will. As such anything and all things are possible for Him even the seemingly contrary, improbable, or impossible.

Science on the other hand is at best only the sum of all the data and conclusions about said data accumulated by finite and fallible beings.

Alas, scientific observations, facts, theories, conclusions, and laws are never perfect because we ourselves are not perfect. They are reliable only until new observations and insights refute them. And, as history has often shown this to be the case, I might confidently stake my life on science most of the time, but I’d never ever bet my after life on it.

Personal Responsibility Conservative

I also want to point out...

dvdmsr (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 12:58PM EST (link)

I don’t believe an acceptance of McCain’s view that God evolved the world necessarily precludes a belief in God either.

Personal Responsibility Conservative

change "precludes a" to "weakens anyone's" -nt-

dvdmsr (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:01PM EST (link)

Personal Responsibility Conservative

 
 

dvdmsr...I think you nailed it right there...5....nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:07PM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


amen...

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:42PM EST (link)

What frosts my britches is this assumption of the infallibility of science when we have proven examples of fraud in the perpetuation of Darwin’s theory. on top of that…it’s the either or assumption where the science of origins is concerned.

The theory of evolution is, at best, an interpretation of the evidence as presented in the fossil record…and if you ask me…it’s anti science to present an interpretation as fact and refuse to deal with alternate interpretations.

A classic example is the uniformitarian theory. The idea that if something like water is dripping from a faucet at a certain rate…so…they’ve extrapolated from this observation that it’s dripped at that rate from the beginning….therefore…if there is a bucket of water under the faucet…and the water in that bucket is a certain depth…they can take the rate of drip from the faucet, divide it into the amount of water in the bucket…and determine how long the faucet has dripped …Evolutionary theory uses this concept to age any number of fossils, rock strata, erosion etc…yet they refuse to consider the possibility that the faucet dripped at a faster or slower rate at some point in the past…or that the bucket was put under the faucet with water already in it….they can’t observe anything to prove their theory to be fact yet present it as such…and anyone that dares challenge their assumption…or simply point out an alternate possibility is automatically painted with a red letter and shunned as a heretic!

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

the real best answer

youngsouthernconservative Thursday, May 7th at 11:03AM EST (link)

Chris Matthews asking if he thinks science or creationism should be taught. Science OR creationism??? Creation science is the only answer of origins. Evolutionists have no idea where anything came from. They say “a tiny infinitely dense speck of matter that suddenly exploded.” But they have no origin for it. The only answer is an eternal Being.

So I would answer this: Evolution is no more than a hypothesis or theory, and is unable to be proven. Government schools should teach both sides.

On the other hand, government schools should not exist at all…

Teaching both sides...

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 5:21PM EST (link)

First I just want to respectfully point out that I think you might be confusing evolution (which explains the diversity of life) with cosmology (which seeks to understand the origins of the universe).

Evolution is no more than a hypothesis or theory

Another clarification. A “theory” in science is a very different thing than say a “theory” that a detective might have on CSI.

If you have a minute you might want to read this explanation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

Government schools should teach both sides.

By both sides what do you mean exactly? Since there is no scientific Theory of Design how would a science teacher go about teaching it? And if we were to teach “creation science” which creation explanation would we teach? Why for example couldn’t we teach astrology or Hindu cosmology? Or why not the Muslim creation story?

I think you need to do some studying

ExposeDemLiars (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 5:52PM EST (link)

First, evolutuon as a theory for the origin of life was down graded by the scientific community in the 90′s because the evidence is overwhelming that it could not be valid. Instead it is now considered a scientific philosophy because even though Darwin style evolution has been proven wrong, scientists still believe that “something similar” must be the answer so they use darwinism as a philisophy in guiding researc.

Secondly, intelligent design is a scientific theory endorsed by many scientists. Close minded people simply jump to the conclusion that intelligent design = religion. It does not, and many of the scientists that support it are not religious people. It simply recognizes that there is a clear and definite design in nature and in life that cannot be explained by random acts of chance. It does not attempt to define how that design came about anymore than the big bang theory attempts to explain where that initial lump of matter came from.

I know quite a bit about ID...

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:32PM EST (link)

…given that I used to subscribe to it.

As you probably know, ID was actually first conceived by Phillip Johnson, a lawyer at USC, and his aim was expressly not scientific.

Are you familiar with the Discovery Institute;s wedge document?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

Are you also familiar with the book Panda’s and People? It was the textbook ID advocates in Dover, Pennsylvania recommended be taught along side a regular science textbook.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Pandas_and_People

The trial in Dover allowed the ID movement to present its case that it was science and not religion. The judge at that trial was a Rick Santorum recommended and George Bush nominated federal judge named John E. Jones.
That trial didn’t end up going so well for the ID community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

 
 
 
 
 

Thanks -nt-

dvdmsr (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 2:24PM EST (link)

Personal Responsibility Conservative

 
 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post.

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:17PM EST (link)

I will admit that my reading of McCain’s quote would lead me to believe it corresponds with a lot of what you are saying. I guess I would parse his answer this way. 1) I (meaning McCain) accept that science has demonstrated that evolution by natural selection is the best explanation we have for the complexity of life we are observing 2) But evolutionary theory does not cover the origins of life and I believe there is a supernatural force at work here. Or more succinctly, an omnipotent God could have set evolution in motion with humans in mind.

At least that’s my best guess at McCain’s point.

Good post

tcgeol (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 3:18PM EST (link)

However…I couldn’t answer like McCain did, because I don’t believe that evolution is the best explanation for the complexity of life other than a general adaptation.

This doesn’t mean that I am ambivalent toward science, though. I wouldn’t have spent the last 10 years getting degrees in a field (geology) with which I disagreed. Disagreeing with evolution does not correlate with ambivalence toward science.

Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger

Even the Left admits we’re Right

 
 
 

How about in one sentence?

Finrod (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 12:50PM EST (link)

“I believe that God created evolution.”

That one would make a lot of liberal heads detonate.

Let’s get down to brass tacks here. How much for the ape?

At least as it relates to Chris Matthews...

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:20PM EST (link)

An answer like that from Pence might have sent a trickle down his leg instead of a thrill up it.

 

You're right,

Tanggor (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:28PM EST (link)

they’re heads would puff up with imminent explosion…and yet, I often wonder why the anti-God crowd find this so hard a concept to master.

God has created a Universe so huge that our puny minds will likely never be able to fully comprehend it without His direct assistance; yet, He has gifted us with an insatiable curiosity to discover and learn of it to the best of our ability.

What a wonderful present has been made to us! Whether it is evolution, or any other subject of scientific inquiry, the hand of God is there, in every fossil, under every rock, within each obscure chemical reaction.

I have no problems with evolutionary theory – much scientific study supports it. But let there be no doubt – whatever processes we “discover”, it is the Maker who caused it to be so.

In the same way that science demonstrates conclusively that individual life begins once those gametes begin zygote-ing around. But that’s a different subject…

“It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.” – George Washington

 

Ecellent!!!

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:45PM EST (link)

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson
 
 

First off, it's Mathews and the so called objective press that keeps throwing it out there...

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:25PM EST (link)

So, how you figure Conservatives are responsible for the “needless distraction.

Second…I can only assume from your rant that the following means you are one of those folks out there that has determined themselves to be the ultimate arbiter of what constitutes science…My question is this, do you restrict your censorship of the scientific method to just evolution or do you include global warming, (soon to be climate change since warming stopped in 19990?

But this video illustrates why the ambivalence towards science (particularly evolution) demonstrated by too many conservatives is a needless distraction.

There is plenty of science that discredits many of the most basic premises and assumptions upon which the whole THEORY of evolution is based. I would say that Congressman Pence stumbled on this because he hasn’t taken the time to educate himself and decide what he believes on the issue…he was obviously blindsided by the question and didn’t have a ready answer.

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

Regarding my "rant" as you say...

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 1:44PM EST (link)

1) How did anything I wrote amount to a “censoring” of the scientific method? 2) I am not aware of the science that refutes evolution. If you have links I’d be happy to review it.

Point taken...Rant and Censorship are too strong

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 2:02PM EST (link)

I don’t object to the theory…or to it being taught…my objection is to the one sided nature of the issue and the idea that anyone who questions Evolutionary theory or global warming are ignorant hillbillies!

As for things to check out:

I would suggest for starters checking out Expelled…keep an open mind and consider the questions about the way Evolution is funded and taught as facts and the obvious holes in the theory.

Read the Genisis Flood by John C. Whitcomb and Henry M. Morris. Doctor Walter Brown has a very interesting theory about how Continental drift and most of the fossil reacord could have been created catestrophically.

Check out the work of Professor Robert Gentry on Palladium halos and the problems his findings cause for the evolutionary theory.

You can also check out the work and links online of Dr. Ken Hamm, and Dr Kent Hovind

Then read the works of the following:

Institute for Creation Research

Steven A. Austin, Ph.D.
Professor of Geology and Chair of the Department of Geology
B. S., University of Washington, Seattle, Washington, 1970
M. S., San Jose State University, San Jose, California 1971
Ph. D., Pennsylvania State University, College Park, Pennsylvania, 1979

John R. Baumgardner, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Geophysics
B. S., Texas Tech University, Lubbock, Texas, 1968
M. S., Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey, 1970
M. S., University of California, Los Angeles, California, 1981
Ph. D., University of California, Los Angeles, California, 1983

Sharon E. Cargo, D.V.M.
Assistant Professor of Biology (Adjunct)
B. S., Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio, 1972
D.V.M., Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio, 1977
M. S., Institute for Creation Research Graduate School, Santee, California, 2002

Daniel C. Criswell, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Biology and Chair of the Department of Biology
B. S., Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 1982
M. S., Institute for Creation Research Graduate School, Santee, California 1994
Ph. D., University of Montana, Missoula, Montana, 2004

Stephen W. Deckard, Ed.D.
Professor of Education (Adjunct)
B. A., McKendree College, Lebanon, Illinois, 1975
M. S., University of Illinois, Champaign, Illinois 1979
Ed. D., Agrosy University, Sarasota, Florida, 1993

David A. DeWitt, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Biology (Adjunct)
B. S., Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan, 1991
Ph. D., Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, 1996

Danny R. Falkner, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Astronomy (Adjunct)
B. S., Bob Jones University, Greenville, South Carolina 1976
M. S., Clemson University, Clemson, South Carolina 1979
M. A., Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana 1983
Ph. D., Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana 1989

Russell D. Humphreys, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Physics
B. S., Duke University, Durham, North Carolina, 1963
Ph. D., Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1972

Eddy Miller, Ph.D.
Dean of the Graduate School
B. A., Northwestern State University, Natchitoches, Louisiana, 1963
M. S. in Ed., Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, Illinois, 1965
Ph. D., U. S. International University, San Diego California, 1969

Henry M. Morris, Ph.D. (1918-2006)
Founder and President Emeritus, Institute for Creation Research
B.S.C.E. (with distinction), Civil Engineering, Rice University, 1939
M.S., Hydraulics, University of Minnesota, 1948
Ph.D., Hydraulic Engineering (Minor in Geology and Mathematics), University of Minnesota, 1950

John D. Morris, Ph.D.
President, Institute for Creation Research
B.S., Civil Engineering, Virginia Tech, 1969
M.S., Geological Engineering, University of Oklahoma, 1977
Ph.D., Geological Engineering, University of Oklahoma, 1980

Patricia L. Nason, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Science Education and Chair of the Department of Science Education
B. A., Sam Houston State University, Huntsville, Texas, 1984
M. Ed., Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas, 1991
Ph. D., Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas, 1994
Chris Osborne, Ph.D.
Professor of Biology (Adjunct)
B. A., California State University, Fullerton, California, 1975
M. S., Institute for Creation Research Graduate School, Santee, California, 1985
Ph. D., Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, California, 1989

Gary Parker, Ph.D.
Professor of Biology
B.A., Wabash College, Crawfordville, IN, 1962
M.S., Ball State University, Muncie, IN, 1965
Ed.D., Ball State University, Muncie, IN, 1973

Larry Vardiman, Ph.D.
Professor of Atmospheric Science and Chair of the Department of Astro-geophysics
B. S. University of Missouri, Rolla, Missouri, 1965
M. S., St. Louis University, St. Louis, Missouri, 1967
M. S., Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado, 1972
Ph. D., Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado, 1974

Other Creation Scientists

Dr. John Witcomb: Co-Authored the Genesis Flood
Dr. Ken Hamm
Dr. Walter Brown
Dr. Robert Gentry
Duane T. Gish, Ph.D.
Dr. Larry Vardimon
Dr. Richard Walker
Dr. Emmett Williams
Dr. Andrew Snelling
Dr. Sean Kruger
Dr. Benjamin Aaron
Dr. Ross Anderson
Dr. Don Rohrer
Dr. Dale Oliver

There is a way which seemeth right to a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death—King Soloman

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

Creationism -vs- Global Warming

exitsfunnel Wednesday, May 6th at 2:35PM EST (link)

I hate it when these two issues are treated as a pair when they have nothing to do with each other. Climate change is complicated. Several years ago, long before it was the political hot potato it’s become, I went to the original source articles to try to sort it all out. I’m not a climatologist but I was a graduate student in physics at the time so I had some facility with scientific literature. Frankly, I couldn’t make heads nor tails of any of it, really. My general opinion is that there is probably something to it, but that the climate change people overstate the certainty of their models and the effects on the climate the changes they want might have. I am also, however, open to the possibility that they are wrong altogether.

The young earth goofiness is an entirely different matter. To say that the opinions expressed by the scientists you’ve listed above (ie, Noah’s flood created the Grand Canyon) are in the minority, would be the understatement of the century. For every piece of evidence they provide, there are a 1000 that work in the opposite direction. There is virtually no way to look at the available evidence and declare the world is 9,000 years old, unless you’ve set out to do just that. Obviously, this is the case, as the one thing that everyone in your list has in common is their religious fundamentalism.

-exits

Just because the earth is 15 billion years old

Diogenes314 (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 5:09PM EST (link)

Doesn’t change the fact that the Universe is a little more than six days old from the Big Bang. (Let there be light ring a bell?) Unlike Darwinism, space-time dilation actually is science. As far as evolutionary theory, narural selection is a proven fact. Transpeciation via mutation is an improbable, unproven, unfalsifiable (and hence unscientific) hypothesis. And spontaneous biogenesis is an absurdity.

Unless you believe in God, of course. The only way life on earth could have devloped via Darwin’s methodology would be By Design.

By "transpeciation via mutation"

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 6:23PM EST (link)

are you referring to transitional fossils or something else?

The fossil record is one sign...

Diogenes314 (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 7:10PM EST (link)

That Darwinism is an unlikely method for propogation of species, at least without an external directing force. Darwin expected it to show an abundance of transitional forms, which it hasn’t. And no, ‘punctuated equilibrium’ doesn’t impress either. Also Chucky D. had no idea about the complexity of RNA/DNA, the odds of both spontaneously and simultaneously ‘evolving’ are so remote as to be absurd. Plus the whole theory reverses entropy on it’s head. At this point in time, we live in a devolutionary universe, not an evolutionary one.

Of course from a theological POV it is all plausible as a mechanism for God’s creation. In particular, you could theotize that when Adam and Eve brought death into the world after the fall was the begining of entropy, that prior to that the world was evolutionary.

Bottom line-the only way Darwin makes sense is if you stipulate the existance of God (or some other exernal force). Which is the opposite of what the PC psuedo-scientists in the field intend.

Where to start...

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 9:55PM EST (link)

Well first on transitional fossils:

1) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

2) The more famous Tiktaalik discovered in 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

3) And just recently a link between seals and land mammals (it is a cool story FWIW):
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2009/04/22/tech-090422-pujila-fossil-seal.html

As for RNA/DNA. Here’s a good video explaining how RNA/DNA works in evolution.

Also, if we are intelligently designed than we should have no atavisms or vestigial traits correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vestigiality

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/animal-facts/atavism.htm

I’m familiar with the trajectory of you argument. IDers are consistent about one thing — moving the goal posts. First we can’t explain the evolution of the eye — then it is explained and IDers move on. Then Michael Behe infamously tried to throw out the digestive system as evidence against evolution in the Dover trial and was presented with over 50 peer reviewed studies explaining the how it evolved. And so on and so forth. With every new piece of evidence IDers try to find ever more complicated and obscure examples to the contrary. Of course they never have actually presented a theory of design that explains the diversity of life better than evolution.

As IDer Paul Nelson himself has admitted:

<blockquoteEasily the biggest challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological design. We don’t have such a theory right now, and that’s a problem. Without a theory, it’s very hard to know where to direct your research focus. Right now, we’ve got a bag of powerful intuitions, and a handful of notions such as ‘irreducible complexity’ and ‘specified complexity’-but, as yet, no general theory of biological design.

screwed up the formatting...

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 9:59PM EST (link)

Here is the Nelson quote with blockquoting corrected:

Easily the biggest challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological design. We don’t have such a theory right now, and that’s a problem. Without a theory, it’s very hard to know where to direct your research focus. Right now, we’ve got a bag of powerful intuitions, and a handful of notions such as ‘irreducible complexity’ and ‘specified complexity’-but, as yet, no general theory of biological design.

 

Any more strawmen?

Diogenes314 (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 10:50PM EST (link)

You are aware Darwin expecred hundreds of transitional fossils between each species? And you point out THREE possibles? Nice. As far as your little video, I missed the part where he explains the simultaneous, spontaneous genesis af RNA and DNA or how one would function without the other. But thanks for a lot of stuff I already knew. And to answer your question about vestigal traits-no. Incorrect. If the designer used evolution as a mechanism to develop the various species, that is.

And of course, you have no idea the trajectory of my argument. Look up-it appearantly already went over your head.

Or you could just reread what I actually posted instead of regurgitating the same tired talking points.

I take it from your "THREE possibles"...

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 12:00AM EST (link)

…statement that you didn’t actually click on the first link I sent regarding transitional fossils?

And since you’re going to take a pass on presenting evidence I’ll try again.

In the event that your argument is over my head and your not just substituting condescension for evidence, please articulate for me the theory of design that better explains the diversity of life than evolution? IDers have been promising such a theory for decades.

Evolution underpins all of modern biology and is supported by numerous other disciplines, geology, genetics, etc. If you have the insight to turn this all on its head you would force multiple areas of science to completely rethink their worldview.

Surely the complexity of your reasoning isn’t too much for the National Academy of Sciences — where I believe some 99% accept evolution. Why are these esteemed scientists not flocking to your side of this debate? Or should I assume that they are all “PC psuedo-scientists”?

Evolution only works if God wants it to.

Diogenes314 (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 10:39AM EST (link)

…please articulate for me the theory of design that better explains the diversity of life than evolution?

I never said that evolution never occurred as a method for speciation. Or even that Darwinist transpeciation via mutation didn’t occur. Mearly that A) if it did, it would need some external force guiding it and B) that either way, it isn’t science, since it is unverifiable and unfalsifiable. To quote myself…

As far as evolutionary theory, natural selection is a proven fact. Transpeciation via mutation is an improbable, unproven, unfalsifiable (and hence unscientific) hypothesis. And spontaneous biogenesis is an absurdity.

Unless you believe in God, of course. The only way life on earth could have devloped via Darwin’s methodology would be By Design.

Darwinism is an unlikely method for propogation of species, at least without an external directing force. Darwin expected it to show an abundance of transitional forms, which it hasn’t. And no, ‘punctuated equilibrium’ doesn’t impress either. Also Chucky D. had no idea about the complexity of RNA/DNA, the odds of both spontaneously and simultaneously ‘evolving’ are so remote as to be absurd. Plus the whole theory reverses entropy on it’s head. At this point in time, we live in a devolutionary universe, not an evolutionary one…

Bottom line-the only way Darwin makes sense is if you stipulate the existance of God (or some other exernal force).

As far as this…

Surely the complexity of your reasoning isn’t too much for the National Academy of Sciences — where I believe some 99% accept evolution. Why are these esteemed scientists not flocking to your side of this debate?

Ask Karl Popper. When he came out saying that Darwinism was unfalsifiable, he became a non-person in the scientific community-until he performed a Galileo-like recantation of his heresy. Ask any ID advocate who has tryed to have his work peer reviewed-or even have his rebuttals to hit pieces published like Behe did. Or you could watch the movie Expelled:No intelligence allowed. It gives you a pretty good idea of what happens to Darwinist heretics under the new inquisition.

isYou are right -- I did mread what you wrote about RNA/DNA

settingsun (Diary) Saturday, May 9th at 1:13PM EST (link)

and I agree that much of how both evolved remains unanswered. Obviously I do think that we will answer those questions over time but I acknowledge we don’t have many of those answers today.

I did remember reading something that I thought might speak more specifically to your concerns and I finally tracked it down.

Here it is if you’re interested:
http://www.scripps.edu/newsandviews/e_20060327/evo.html

Scientists at The Scripps Research Institute have successfully converted an RNA enzyme (ribozyme) into a DNA enzyme (deoxyribozyme) through a process of accelerated in vitro evolution. The molecular conversion or transfer of both genetic information and catalytic function between these two different genetic systems, which are both based on nucleic acid-like molecules, is exactly what many scientists believe occurred during the very earliest period of earth’s existence.

This “evolutionary conversion” provides a modern-day snapshot of how life as we understand it may have first evolved out of the earliest primordial mix of RNA-like molecules—sometimes referred to as the “pre-RNA world”—into a more complex form of RNA-based life (or the “RNA world”) and eventually to cellular life based on DNA and proteins. Nucleic acids are large complex molecules that store and convey genetic information, but can also function as enzymes.

Oops...obviously meant to type:

settingsun (Diary) Saturday, May 9th at 1:17PM EST (link)

“You are right — I did misread what you wrote about RNA/DNA”

 
 
 

Straw man...noone here says with certainty that evolutionary processes are provably false...

AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 1:17PM EST (link)

the arguement is…to the extent evolution does exist…and that biological systems needed to support the evolutionary cycle exist it’s not possible for it to have spontaneously generated itself out of thin air without some plan and some intelligence to guide it…

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

Ace, I'm confused by this.

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 2:46PM EST (link)

Throughout this thread multiple comments have cited reasons why they believe the Theory of Evolution or at least macro-evolution is false. If their claims are valid isn’t evolution by definition then falsifiable?

Evolution is too slippery to be falsifiable

tcgeol (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 2:58PM EST (link)

You might claim that the nature of science is to change and adapt with new findings, but that makes it impossible to falsify evolution. Evolution is loose enough to change in any way that it needs to change in relation to new data and ingrained enough to make such work necessary. We could falsify the theory of gravity – if you drop a heavier-than-air object and it goes up without added power. There is no possible way to do such a thing to evolution. If any part is found to be incorrect, there are five new ideas advanced showing how that part was obviously wrong and showing how it should work – until they themselves are proven wrong.

Any historical science is unfalsifiable. We weren’t there when it happened and any possible explanation we can invent iis only our best guess with the available data and with time limitations.

Nothing short of a time machine could scientifically prove or disprove an theory of origins.

Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger

Even the Left admits we’re Right

But wouldn't an example of design falsify evolution?

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 4:59PM EST (link)

There is no possible way to do such a thing to evolution. If any part is found to be incorrect, there are five new ideas advanced showing how that part was obviously wrong and showing how it should work – until they themselves are proven wrong.

By way of background, I used to be an IDer. I started to lose confidence after one example after another of design or (irreducible complexity if you prefer) was better explained by evolution than the ID proponents I had been convinced by.

I was also disturbed by the cavalier way that ID proponents simply discarded a debunked design example and moved on to the next… and the next…and the next.

What possible example of design could be shown that could not, given time, have some theory advanced showing how it could have occurred through an evolutionary process (however unlikely)?

tcgeol (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 2:24AM EST (link)

I guarantee you that if the evolution of a jet engine was essential to the future of evolutionary theory, there would be 10 hypotheses advanced in the next year to explain that problem. Please see my reply above for my opinion of that idea. The problem is – we can look back in time and come up with various and sundry possible explantions, hypotheses, etc about how something occurred. But possible explanations is all they are. They aren’t truth. To me, science is concerned with truth, not just an example that fits a given hypothesis (and please don’t tell me that most scientists don’t start from an a priori assurance that evolution occurred. They are no different than creationists in that area.)

Therefore, the fact that evolutionary explanations have been advanced for these “debunked design examples” does nothing to attack creation or intelligent design. These hyptheses are opinions, purely and simply because they are a historical science.

Lets use the example of the eye. That is one of the major organs that has been used to support claims of design and has also had hypotheses advanced detailing its development by evolution. Here is the issue – we didn’t see the eye develop. Therefore, we have no idea how it happened. For a scientist to say that evolution is true because it “can theoretically explain” the development of the eye is arrogance of a high order. It shows a previous bias that is assumed to be correct on its face. I can’t think of anything where evolution explains a “designed feature” better than ID.

Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger

Even the Left admits we’re Right

I agree, the development of the eye

settingsun (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 9:39AM EST (link)

is a hypothesis and it is done inside the framework of evolutionary theory.

But let’s take a look at how scientists arrived at that hypothesis. In evolution the eye would have developed in stages. And we are not proposing those stages in a vacuum — we can find examples of each stage of that development in the animal kingdom today.

There’s a pretty good video on this here if you are interested:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/1/l_011_01.html

So does the design theory better explain the eye than evolution? Here design advocates are always tripped up by the “problem of perfection”? As I’m typing this, I’m almost exclusively using my left eye. I’m farsighted and I have a weak and drifting right eye. Furthermore I have a parent suffering macular degeneration and cataracts also run in my family. Wouldn’t a designer who is directly guiding this process be able to avoid these problems?

IDers have largely stopped using the eye as an example for one reason, while they initially thought it would be an effective example because if its complexity, it turned out to be one of the features of human anatomy that is dramatically better explained by evolution than design.

I’ll paraphrase a quote from a biology and zoology professor Frank Zindler:

As an organ developed via the opportunistic twists and turns of evolutionary processes, the human eye is explainable. As an organ designed and created by an infinitely wise deity, the human eye is inexcusable. For unlike the invertebrate eyes …, the human eye is constructed upon the foundation of an almost incredible error: The retina has been put together backwards! Unlike the retinas of octopuses and squids, in which the light-gathering cells are aimed forward, toward the source of incoming light, the photoreceptor cells (the so called rods and cones) of the human retina are aimed backward, away from the light source. Worse yet, the nerve fibers which must carry signals from the retina to the brain must pass in front of the receptor cells, partially impeding the penetration of light to the receptors. Only a blasphemer would attribute such a situation to divine design!

Thank you for the link. I can't watch it on the computer I'm using

tcgeol (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 4:00PM EST (link)

but I will try to watch it later, so I can’t comment on it right now.

I read an article a few years ago discussing the retina and why it may have been designed backwards. I can’t remember where I saw it for sure; but if I can find it, I’ll link to it. I will say this, though, as it relates to the design of the retina – we aren’t perfect or given all knowledge. Just because somthing doesn’t appear logical to us right now doesn’t mean that it isn’t.

Yes, you can find theoretical steps that exist that might fit in a evolutionary pattern and I won’t deny that fact. That is irrelevant as far as evidence for evolution. That only means that if everything went right, and evolution can occur on a large scale, the eye theoretically could have developed. It most certainly does not indicate that it did evolve. If we ever, without human interference, observe the development of an eye in the field, you will have taken a great step toward convincing me that it is possible through evolutionary means. Until then, it is good scienctific study but worth nothing more than that. Observation and experimentation is the core of science. Deductions from that study are essential, but only opinion.

Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger

Even the Left admits we’re Right

 

The "problem of perfection" is no problem at all

tcgeol (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 4:04PM EST (link)

for those who do believe the Bible (creationists and some forms of ID).

When man was tempted and fell into sin, creation fell with him. God designed everything correctly, but the effects of sin ruined this perfection. You can blame Adam for your bad eyes. Now, if you don’t believe the Bible, this means nothing to you; but for Christians, the answer to that problem is obvious. You can claim that it isn’t a scientific answer, and you would be entirely correct, but it is a legitimate answer.

Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger

Even the Left admits we’re Right

 
 
 
 
 

If you'll read my posts I think I've been consistant...

AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 3:57PM EST (link)

My issue is with the refusal to consider alternative possibilities to the current evolutionary ideology. I personally don’t believe that Macro Evolution outside an intelligent design is next to impossible…but on the other hand I won’t discount the possibility that I could be wrong or that there is not evidence that I don’t currently have access to…were I to discount it…I would be no better than the people I complain about.

I honestly don’t see how evolution as it’s now taught as fact can be explained as happening by chance because of the statistical impossibility that a species can come about spontaneously complete with male and female members of the species in order to propagate itself and an entire eco-system and food chain developing simultaneously to support it. My faith plays a part as well…but I could be wrong…I’m human and far from infallible…

That said though I don’t think he did it that way…it’s possible that God created the world using evolutionary processes…though I personally doubt that too….or he could have done it just the way he said he did and the fossil record could have been caused by a flood…Dr. Brown has an interesting theory that can explain many things that Evolution can’t or won’t deal with.

Which brings us back to your question…Do I believe in Evolution occurring naturally and by chance? No. Do I think it’s possible? My faith says no but the investigator/scientist in me says yes it’s possible. Do I believe Evolution could be the tool used by GOD to create everything we know and have yet to learn? Now we’re getting into comfortable territory for me because of the things I just stated…I don’t see how all the systems that need to be present for life to exist and survive could all come about simultaneously without some kind of planning and design…Do I believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis to explain Origins? As a fundamentalist I say yes it’s a matter of faith for me, and I readily acknowledge there is no and can be no scientific basis for my faith beyond my experience, (which evolutionary science will not acknowledge about themselves). As such can I prove the earth was created in 6 days and is only 6000 years old? Absolutely not! I can’t prove it…nor can I disprove it…that’s why it’s a matter of faith…likewise Evolution. It can’t be proven that GOD didn’t complete it in six days and that a catastrophic flood created the fossil record…it’s a matter of faith as well.

Hope that clears it up some…there is no contradiction in what I’m trying to say…let’s hope it reads that way.

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

correction...

AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 4:05PM EST (link)

My issue is with the refusal to consider alternative possibilities to the current evolutionary ideology. I personally don’t believe that Macro Evolution outside an intelligent design is next to impossible…but on the other hand I won’t discount the possibility that I could be wrong or that there is not evidence that I don’t currently have access to…were I to discount it…I would be no better than the people I complain about

That came out in the exact opposite of what I meant. it should read:

I personally DO believe that Macro Evolution outside an intelligent design is next to impossible

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson
 
 
 
 
 

Let's not forget the mathmatical improbability of one individual member of a species evolving

AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 1:13PM EST (link)

simultaneously with another member of that species to mate with and propagate itself, (which blows spontaneous generation out of the water), let alone a simultaneous evolution of an entire eco system and food chain in order for it to support it’s life…I can see how each of the sciences that espouse evolutionary theory can justify the theory in isolation…but when all the sciences of evolution are taken together as a whole…and the mathematical probabilities that all of it came together at the same time in order for life of any form to survive I don’t see how anyone can possibly believe it happened by chance no matter how long it’s given to develop!

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson
 
 
 
 
 
 

There is a reason they get lumped together...

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 6:53PM EST (link)

My general opinion is that there is probably something to it, but that the climate change people overstate the certainty of their models and the effects on the climate the changes they want might have. I am also, however, open to the possibility that they are wrong altogether.

Substitute the words “climate Change people” with “Darwinists” and you get the point exactly…each are discussed as if they are certain facts not subject to question or criticism and anyone who raises serious science based questions about either issue are equated to Holocaust deniers and knuckle dragging neanderthals!

As to the Grand Canyon slam…is it not true that the Colorado River could never have carved the Canyon since the source of the river is below the highest points of the canyon so..at a minimum there had to be an inland sea present for the water to be high enough to carve your billion year old canyon? And is it possible the canyon could have been caused by a sudden rush of water from a dam burst of an inland sea which carved the canyon suddenly? If you say no to the second…please present your evidence to prove the impossibility of the scenario I suggest!

Second…have you studied any of the terrain changes, canyon creation and strata formation to the hundreds of feet that geologists insist would take billions of years which were formed in mere hours when when Mount Saint Helens exploded…That sir…is my evidence to prove there is a possibility that drastic terrain, strata and other changes can happen in a matter of days not billions of years…does that prove Evolution to be completely wrong? no…but it shows another possibility and reason to reinterpret the evidence…and my evidence is observable!

In the second paragraph…you prove my point…you simply brush aside all the people I mentioned without giving them a fair hearing or looking at any of their work…

Just investigate one of the folks I mention…Dr. Robert Gentry…if you have the guts…take the time to study his findings on the Palladium Halo conundrum he has presented Evolution Science with. Of course…instead of dealing with his findings and working to explain the contradictions to evolutionary theory they present…they responded by stripping him of his Job in the government and have since denied any research grants and funds because his “evidence” runs contrary to the old earth theory of evolution.

I ask you…is it science to take one theory as fact and ignore an alternate possibility without considering the evidence for that alternate theory?

My faith is my faith and faith doesn’t need science to show me the truth…I’m not a scientist…but I’m an investigator and I know there is evidence…and there are theories based on evidence that may or may not be true…it’s the interpretation of the evidence that is always a problem unless you can duplicate an experiment and observe your hypothesis in action….that’s impossible with Evolution…I don’t really care if Evolution is true or not…it won’t effect my faith…but I’ve got a problem with the idea that the interpretation of any body of evidence is infallible…and Evolution has proven to be beyond fallible!

As to this Gem:

For every piece of evidence they provide, there are a 1000 that work in the opposite direction.

In this you acknowledge the evidence to support the possibility of a 9000 year earth and dismiss it by saying there are a thousand that point in the opposite direction….I say…fair enough…I acknowledge the evidence that points in the opposite direction and have never questioned it…here or elsewhere…there are two issues here

1)It is possible the interpretation of the evidence you site is wrong and that the evidence sited could have been generated by a different means.

2) Does the 100s of pieces of evidence you site negate or eliminate the evidence that exists to the contrary…and should the evidence that contradicts Evolutionary theory be ignored completely?

Parting Shot:

To say that the opinions expressed by the scientists you’ve listed above (ie, Noah’s flood created the Grand Canyon) are in the minority, would be the understatement of the century.

Isn’t that exactly the arguement that the global warming crowd uses to dismiss their critics? Thanks for proving my point that the two issues deserve to be discussed in the same breath…

Your final sentence lays bare your refusal to even consider an alternate interpretation because of you bias against religious fundamentalists and your inability to take an unbiased look at problematic theories.

Pot meet Kettle!

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

Young Earth -vs- Old Earth

exitsfunnel Wednesday, May 6th at 8:17PM EST (link)

“In this you acknowledge the evidence to support the possibility of a 9000 year earth and dismiss it by saying there are a thousand that point in the opposite direction….I say…fair enough…I acknowledge the evidence that points in the opposite direction and have never questioned it…here or elsewhere…there are two issues here”

This would be a fair charge if the evidence for an old earth weren’t so overwhelming both quantitatively and qualitatively. Imagine that I step outside of my house and I have no idea what time it is. The sun is shining and the birds are chirping and my paper boy rides by and tosses the morning edition on my lawn. Obviously, it’s 7am or thereabouts.

Then I look over and see my neighbor, who I know to work second shift pulling into his drive. Based on this new evidence, do I decide that it’s actually 11pm or even consider the possibility? Or do I just reason that he wasn’t at work or if he was, that he was working a different shift? Obviously, I do the latter.

But the young earth people are doing the former. Your complaint is essentially that science isn’t willing to place the evidence of the neighbors arrival on the same footing that they place the shining sun and chirping birds and the morning edition of the paper. And it’s true that they don’t. But they ignore it with good reason.

“Isn’t that exactly the arguement that the global warming crowd uses to dismiss their critics? Thanks for proving my point that the two issues deserve to be discussed in the same breath…”

No, it’s not the same. The difference is magnitude. There is genuine disagreement in the scientific community over many aspects of the climate change issue, even if the skeptics are in the minority. No such disagreement exists over the youngness or oldness of the Earth.

The list you give above of credentialed scientists in relevant fields who believe that the sum of the evidence points to an earth younger than 15,000 years is probably exhaustive. In other words there are those 30 or 40 and then there are the 10s and 10s of thousands of geologists and physicists (christians and atheists alike) who accept the age of the earth to be four and a half billionish years.

Clearly what distinguishes that small hand full of scientists is the fundamentalism of their religious faith.

-exits

ps – How do you get the quoting into your posts? Do you just enter the raw html? Thanks.

My complaint is that they idnor the sun that is in the western sky which would indicate the paperboy is eight hours late delivering the Paper

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 11:16PM EST (link)

I’m complaining because of the indisputable fact that evidence that calls into question the validity of evolutionary assumptions is ignored as not valid because everything else and everyone else thinks evolution is right…

Take Galileo… and the problem he had proving the earth was round…Science at the time said the earth was flat and if you sailed to the end of it you would fall off it…all the evidence anyone had was that the earth was flat…then there was evidence that showed the plants didn’t revolve around the earth so they came up with theories about planets doing loops in the heavens to answer the observations. Galileo ended up in all kinds of trouble with the scientific community of that day who were funded by the church and his evidence was disregarded because of the prejudices of the prevailing wisdom of the day and the insistance of the church who was paying the bill that his evidence had to be wrong…

We have the same thing today…but instead of the Church trying to prove a man centered view of the Universe we have a secular government paying for science to prove a secular answer for origins in place of a God centered one…

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

Actually nobody believed the world was flat...

Diogenes314 (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 11:05AM EST (link)

The argument was over whether the earth was the center of the universe.

Of course according to Einstein it actually is. To be specific, an event is equally valid from the point of the observer as it is from an outside vantage. You say the earth spins, I say the universe revolves around it.

Waiting for atheist heads to explode…

so truth is relative?...give me a break...

AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 12:45PM EST (link)

The original belief was that the earth was flat because that’s the best evidence that science had at the time…but it’s never been flat has it? ayes..in Galileo’s time the belief was that the universe revolved around the earth…as I stated…but it never has revolved around the earth has it? and Einstein doesn’t say the universe is flat but that the space time continuum and fabric of the universe is on a flat plane which is hypothetical and can’t be proven which has given rise to string theory to explain the inconsistencies in Einstein’ mathematical theory of relativity.

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

Take a break.

Diogenes314 (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 2:04PM EST (link)

so truth is relative?…give me a break…

No. But an ecent can be described in equally valid ways depending on the POV of an observer. For example, if I was on a spaceship either travelling at reletivistic speeds or orbiting the event horizon of a black hole, it would appear to me that the external universe had accelerated dramaticly while an outside observer would see me as having been frozen in time. Either description is equally valid.

The original belief was that the earth was flat because that’s the best evidence that science had at the time…but it’s never been flat has it?

That belief predates the classical greek era, ir was known by Ptolmey’s time that the earth was spherical. The myth of widespread belief in a flat earth is a 19th century invention of Washington Irving’s…

The common misconception that people before the age of exploration believed that Earth was flat entered the popular imagination after Washington Irving’s publication of The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus in 1828. This belief is even repeated in some widely read textbooks. Previous editions of Thomas Bailey’s The American Pageant stated that “The superstitious sailors [of Columbus' crew] … grew increasingly mutinous…because they were fearful of sailing over the edge of the world”; however, no such historical account is known.[68]
Actually, sailors were probably among the first to know of the curvature of Earth from everyday observations, for example seeing how mountains vanish below the horizon on sailing far from shore.

Irving builds his story of the 1486 Salamanca meeting around the issue of the sphericity of the Earth. He presents some of the arguments against the sphericity (based on the impossibility that there be unredeemed or unredeemable humans on the opposite side);[69] however, he also admits that other learned scholars of the day accepted the sphericity of the Earth.[70]

In reality, the issue in the 1490s was not the shape but the size of the Earth, as well as the position of the east coast of Asia. Historical estimates from Ptolemy onwards placed the coast of Asia about 180° east of the Canary Islands[71] (the actual value is slightly short of 140°). Columbus adopted an earlier (and rejected) distance of 225°, added 28° (based on Marco Polo’s travels), and then placed Japan another 30° further east. Starting from Cape St. Vincent in Portugal, Columbus made Eurasia stretch 283° to the east, leaving the Atlantic as only 77° wide. Since he planned to leave from the Canaries (9° further west), his trip to Japan would only have to cover 68° of longitude.[72]

Furthermore, Columbus mistakenly used a much shorter length for a degree (he substituted the shorter 1480 m Italian “mile” for the longer 2177 m Arabic “mile”), making his degree (and the circumference of the Earth) about 75% of what it really was.[73] The combined effect of these mistakes was that Columbus estimated the distance to Japan to be only about 5,000 km (or only to the eastern edge of the Caribbean) while the true figure is about 20,000 km. The Spanish scholars may not have known the exact distance to the east coast of Asia, but they certainly knew that it was significantly farther than Columbus’ projection; and this was the basis of the criticism in Spain and Portugal, whether academic or amongst mariners, of the proposed voyage.

The disputed point, therefore, was not the shape of the Earth, nor the idea that going west would eventually lead to Japan and China, but the ability of European ships to sail that far across open seas. The small ships of the day (Columbus’ three ships varied between 20.5 and 23.5 m – or 67 to 77 feet – in length and carried about 90 men) simply could not carry enough food and water to reach Japan. In fact, the ships barely reached the eastern Caribbean islands. Already the crews were mutinous, not because of some fear of “sailing off the edge”, but because they were running out of food and water with the possibility that there were no new supplies within sailing distance. They were on the edge of starvation.[74]

What saved Columbus, of course, was the unknown existence of the Americas precisely at the point he thought he would reach Japan. His ability to resupply with water and food from the Caribbean islands allowed him to return safely to Europe. The academics were right: it was not possible for a 1492 ship to sail west from Europe across open oceans directly to Japan; mariners would have died long before they reached their destination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

ayes..in Galileo’s time the belief was that the universe revolved around the earth…as I stated…but it never has revolved around the earth has it?

In fact is was Ptolmey, not the Church which gave us the geocentric cosmology. But as in my fisrt response, you could describe the earth’s rotation as the universe revolving around it, it is a matter of perception.

and Einstein doesn’t say the universe is flat but that the space time continuum and fabric of the universe is on a flat plane which is hypothetical and can’t be proven which has given rise to string theory to explain the inconsistencies in Einstein’ mathematical theory of relativity.

No, he says nothing of the sort. And string theory isn’t meant to explain Einstein’s ‘inconsistancies’ but to integrate Reletivity with Quantum Theory.

My point is...and you've proved it...that the earth being flat was a scientific observation at the time...

AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:20PM EST (link)

and from their perspective using your discription…they were right from that perspective…the earth looked flat….but it was round wasn’t it…they didn’t have the evidence necessary to prove the earth was round…but that didn’t make the earth any less round did it.

Bottom line in that discussion however…is that it can be proved that the earth is round based on observation….you can’t observe history unless you were alive when that history was made…and I think it’s safe to say that there is no person on the face of this planet today who was alive to observe what was happening 150 years ago…or 1500 years ago…or 15000 years ago let alone billions of years ago…so what’s your point?

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

By the way...I was the one who reference Galileo in the context of the Church insisting the earth was flat

AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:29PM EST (link)

through science for which the church was the major patron of the time…Ptolemey is beside my original point. We could both sit here and right dissertations on all of this and play gotcha all day long and it doesn’t change the fact that Evolutionary science and creation science only differs in the interpretation of evidence as it exists…(taking it further, evidence that we currently know about). But interpretation is not fact. Evolution hasn’t over billions of years, spontaneous generation, gradual evolution….etc can never be proven scientifically because it was never observed, and will never be observed no matter how many epithets we throw at each other

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

"I was the one who reference Galileo in the context of the Church insisting the earth was flat "

Diogenes314 (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 6:44AM EST (link)

Except “The Church” never did. And for the record, the Catholic Church at that time was less an ecclesiastical institution than a secular one. Atheists like to point out the abuses of the Medival Church as an argument against religion, in fact, they are a symptom of the nature of a totalitarian state, and the effect of secularization on religious bodies.

My mistake...I see what you're getting at...I had a brain cramp

AceInTX (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 9:11AM EST (link)

Galileo challenged the earth centered theory of the solar system revolving around the earth which you stated above…I missed that…my bad.

I hate when I do that because I know it blows my credibility. One of these days I’ll learn to stop writing things like this from Memory and double check it before I type it.

My facts were wrong on Galileo but the point remains. The science of the day said the solar planets and sun revolved around the earth based on observation and biases formed centuries before based on the false assumption that the Bible says the heavens revolve around the earth.

And I agree with you that the Church of the day was more secular than religious but again the point remains the same…the Church was the patron of the Sciences of that day…and I don’t believe for a second that Galileo was the only person who believed the earth revolved around the sun based on their provable scientific observation. I’m convinced that we remember Galileo today not because he was the sole believer in his provable fact…but that he was the only one who had the guts to stand up to face being burned at the stake for refusing to lie about what he knew to be true to placate the church who was not only his benefactor but had the power and intent to kill him if he did not recant.

The Church of this day is a Secular Government who controls the purse strings of scientific research through grants and secular university who funds most research in this country. The point was made above that no ID articles have been published when the obvious answer is that the scientific journals are controlled by people whose livelihood is dependent on the continued funding of the institutions I mentioned.

Again, my issue is not with the fact that evolution is taught or widely held to be true…if it is true it doesn’t change my faith in any way since my belief is that GOD created everything therefore he created the evolutionary process…That assumption poses some theological issues for me that I don’t want to get into…but I can deal with that. My issue is with the idea that the very possibility that there is an intelligence involved in putting this all together is dismissed as a crack pot idea and dismissed without any evidence that it could be possible. It’s with the beginning premise of Evolution that there is no GOD or intelligence that could or did plan and design all these cycles, and processes, and food chains and everything else we see around it therefore those who find the idea that this could all have occurred by accident are crackpots, fools and religious zelouts stuck in the stone age!

Once again it comes down not to evidence for or against one arguement or the other…both sides of this debate use the same evidence…it’s about how that evidence is interpreted, all the assumptions for one side or the other that have to be made for either theory to work and the impossibility to test and observe the theory in action and the final assumption that the one which is no more provable than the other is stated as fact and anyone who challenges that claim are heretics to be banned, shunned, and destroyed!

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

That in a nutshell is the game Matthews was playing with Pence nt

AceInTX (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 9:15AM EST (link)
The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson
 

I understand where you are coming from

settingsun (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 10:40AM EST (link)

and I appreciate your sincerity. The point I was trying to make originally is that by adopting McCain’s answer (at least from a messaging perspective) allows conservatives to provide an explanation that in no why negates their ability to invoke God as the ultimate architect or the first cause. I don’t pretend to know your theological assumptions and it is certainly none of my business. I will share that numerous christian denominations have incorporated evolution into their worldview or at least made peace with it.

I’d really recommend checking out two books by Ken Miller (biologist and believer).

Finding Darwin’s God and Only a Theory. I’ve pasted the summary below in case you’re interested.

Only a Theory:
http://www.amazon.com/Only-Theory-Evolution-Battle-Americas/dp/067001883X

“In this powerfully argued and timely book, Ken Miller takes on the fundamental core of the Intelligent Design movement, and shows with compelling examples and devastating logic that ID is not only bad science but is potentially threatening in other deeper ways to America’s future. But make no mistake, this is not some atheistic screed — Prof. Miller’s perspective as a devout believer will allow his case to resonate with believers and non-believers alike.”
–Francis Collins, Director, the Human Genome Project and author of The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief

Finding Darwin’s God
http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-Scientists-Evolution/dp/0060930497

From Scientific American
Miller, professor of biology at Brown University, believes firmly in evolution. He also believes in God-a belief not widely shared among scientists. Here he sets out to offer thoughts on how to reconcile the conflict many people see between the two positions. Evolution, he says, is a story of origins; so too is the Judeo-Christian creation story. “The conflict between these two versions of our history is real, and I do not doubt for a second that it needs to be addressed. What I do not believe is that the conflict is unresolvable.” Laying out the positions with care and clarity, he offers his resolution: “As more than one scientist has said, the truly remarkable thing about the world is that it actually does make sense. The parts fit, the molecules interact, the darn thing works. To people of faith, what evolution says is that nature is complete. God fashioned a material world in which truly free, truly independent beings could evolve.”

Since you asked I'll touch on the edge of it and leave it there because I don't want to thread jack on it...

AceInTX (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 7:10PM EST (link)

my theological problems…(this is aside from the scientific argument)..has to do with the foundations of the faith…the concept of original sin and how death came into the world….and ultimately the need for a savior.

I know we could fill volumes on the theological side of this argument and I know I don’t know it all…(not that I don’t forget that at times…ha)…so I’ll leave it there and keep that discussion for another thread/diary

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson
 
 

Ace...

Diogenes314 (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 11:37AM EST (link)

First of all, I think you and I generally agree on this subject. And don’t sweat having the wrong herasy for Galileo, that myth is so widespread as to be ridiculous. As to some of your points…

The science of the day said the solar planets and sun revolved around the earth based on observation and biases formed centuries before based on the false assumption that the Bible says the heavens revolve around the earth.

Thsi is why I mentioned Ptolmey earlier. It is a common misconception that the geocentric position was based on Christian theology, when in fact it was pagan cosmology that had been adopted by the secularized church. Cutting edge 2nd century B.C. ‘science’ accepted as dogma in the late middle ages. I’m getting a deja vu feeling here…

And I agree with you that the Church of the day was more secular than religious but again the point remains the same…the Church was the patron of the Sciences of that day…and I don’t believe for a second that Galileo was the only person who believed the earth revolved around the sun based on their provable scientific observation. I’m convinced that we remember Galileo today not because he was the sole believer in his provable fact…but that he was the only one who had the guts to stand up to face being burned at the stake for refusing to lie about what he knew to be true to placate the church who was not only his benefactor but had the power and intent to kill him if he did not recant.

Actually Galileo recanted the second they said boo. I would have loved to see them try that on Isaac Newton-he not only wouldn’t have recanted, he would have given them chapter and verse on where they were full of fertelizer and then told them where to stick their ‘science’.

The point was made above that no ID articles have been published when the obvious answer is that the scientific journals are controlled by purse strings of scientific research through grants and secular university who funds most research in this country. The point was made above that no ID articles have been published when the obvious answer is that the scientific journals are controlled by people whose livelihood is dependent on the continued funding of the institutions I mentioned.

That’s part of it, but it goes deeper. There has been a widespread hostility to people of faith by the scientific establishment since the so-called ‘enlightenment’-partly because religion was seen as hostile to science because of things like the Galileo incident. Which is why I pointed out that the problem there wasn’t theology, it was absolute secular power. Also, any scientist who gives any creadence (or even tolerance) to I.D. or expresses questions about Darwinism is likely to be excommunicated from ‘science’. Google Karl Popper and Antony Flew.

Again, my issue is not with the fact that evolution is taught or widely held to be true…if it is true it doesn’t change my faith in any way since my belief is that GOD created everything therefore he created the evolutionary process…That assumption poses some theological issues for me that I don’t want to get into…but I can deal with that. My issue is with the idea that the very possibility that there is an intelligence involved in putting this all together is dismissed as a crack pot idea and dismissed without any evidence that it could be possible.

I go further. Whether or not Darwinism was active as a method of speciation is unknown and unknowable. But it is unlikely to the point of absurdity that it could have happened without external guidance. And biogenesis and the ‘evolution of DNA and RNA simultaneously is an impossibility without an external force and…

Wait for it…

A design.

Belief in Darwinism requires a belief in God. Or ignorance and sloppy thinking.

Got that...

AceInTX (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 7:46PM EST (link)

Thsi is why I mentioned Ptolmey earlier. It is a common misconception that the geocentric position was based on Christian theology, when in fact it was pagan cosmology that had been adopted by the secularized church. Cutting edge 2nd century B.C. ’science’ accepted as dogma in the late middle ages. I’m getting a deja vu feeling here…

I realize Ptolmey was the source of the geocentric position, and didn’t address that part of it because it has nothing to do with my overall point of this…am I shifting goal posts?…I hope not and don’t intend to. but my main point in bringing it up remains…maybe based on my mistaken acceptance of the conventional wisdom on this but again it doesn’t change my point. whether the church was the source of it or not is irrelevant so far as my point is concerned that being that the Church controlled the Science of the day as it’s patron and it did everything to perpetuate and defend the geocentric model far beyond the appropriate time to question the theory based on the new facts uncovered by Galileo. I would say Evolution being taught as fact not theory is an effect of the same system being employed by a Secular, (to the point of being atheistic) Government as opposed to a secular church.

Actually Galileo recanted the second they said boo. I would have loved to see them try that on Isaac Newton-he not only wouldn’t have recanted, he would have given them chapter and verse on where they were full of fertelizer and then told them where to stick their ’science’.

At this point I’ll have to concede my relative ignorance on the subject…I’ve read the history but I may be mixing him up parts of the story with Luther or one of the other heros of the enlightenment and reformation. I’ll simply ask at this point…didn’t Galileo after recanting go back later and recant his original recantation?

That’s part of it, but it goes deeper. There has been a widespread hostility to people of faith by the scientific establishment since the so-called ‘enlightenment’-partly because religion was seen as hostile to science because of things like the Galileo incident. Which is why I pointed out that the problem there wasn’t theology, it was absolute secular power. Also, any scientist who gives any creadence (or even tolerance) to I.D. or expresses questions about Darwinism is likely to be excommunicated from ’science’. Google Karl Popper and Antony Flew.

With that you get to the point I was originally trying to make…obviously not very well…that being basically the pendulum has swung to far in the opposite direction now when Science begins with the assumption that there is no God…only natural forces and random processes devoid of any intelligent influence when any unbiased person able to reason can see a problem with the idea that a bunch of cells got together to form an organism, which became a male fish at the same time another organism became a female fish so they could make baby fish that would turn onto a male sea based mammal at the same time a female sea based mammal so they could make baby sea based mammals…and so on and so on till we get people. Then you take that development and go back and consider not only that was put together accidentally…but differing ecosystems were developed simultaneous spontaneously generated in order for each of them to survive…then add to that a food chain which helped deal with food and overpopulation of certain species and on and on and on…

just doesn’t make sense to me unless you consider what you’re saying…a hostility to religion based on what happened in the reformation and the enlightenment.

and finally:

I go further. Whether or not Darwinism was active as a method of speciation is unknown and unknowable. But it is unlikely to the point of absurdity that it could have happened without external guidance. And biogenesis and the ‘evolution of DNA and RNA simultaneously is an impossibility without an external force and…

Wait for it…

A design.

Belief in Darwinism requires a belief in God. Or ignorance and sloppy thinking.

with your permission I’ll use that in the future…if the discussion is on Darwin…I think most evolutionary scientists have moved beyond Darwinian Evolution because they can’t get past the absolute absence of transitional forms…or at least as many as should exist if Darwinian evolution were true…isn’t that where spontaneous generation comes from?

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

As far as I know...

Diogenes314 (Diary) Sunday, May 10th at 3:26PM EST (link)

Galileo’s ‘unrecantation’ was a posthumous myth…

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:

Galileo was found “vehemently suspect of heresy”, namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to “abjure, curse and detest” those opinions.[90]

He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.

His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[91]

According to popular legend, after recanting his theory that the Earth moved around the Sun, Galileo allegedly muttered the rebellious phrase And yet it moves, but there is no evidence that he actually said this or anything similarly impertinent. The first account of the legend dates to a century after his death.[92]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

But it doesn’t change the fact that Darwinism is the new inquisition.

We generally agree on this subject, just expressing it a tad diferently.

And by all means, feel free to use any of my brilliant, witty arguments. More people should paraphrase me, it would make the interwebs a much cooler place.

Of course you're saying that in a purely un-conceited way I assume?

AceInTX (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 12:05PM EST (link)

And by all means, feel free to use any of my brilliant, witty arguments. More people should paraphrase me, it would make the interwebs a much cooler place.

LOL

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

I'm actually not that conceited...

Diogenes314 (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 12:51PM EST (link)

But since I tend to give some folks that impression, why not run with it?

Hey...I do the same...nt

AceInTX (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 1:29PM EST (link)
The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

yes, truth is not relative - nt

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:34PM EST (link)

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

logical fallacy

ehud (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 3:27PM EST (link)

Have you ever read a good book on YEC or heard a presentation on it? I don’t think I need to tell you that the media and university profs are not trustworthy.

It is a logical fallacy to say that something is true because it is popular. 95% of scientists have been wrong about a lot of things in the past…humans have this problem with group think and if you watch Expelled! there is little tolerance for minority opinion.

Also, it is a logical fallacy to say something is true because an expert says it is, if that expert is biased (and they clearly are) and have personal reasons to believe in evolution and the associated theories given that they are all athiests.

If you look at the actual evidence, there is a lot that fits much better with a young earth model. And a lot of the evidence depends on your assumptions about what happened in the past. Some observations may seem to support evoultion/billions of years if you accept certain assumptions, but the same observation may support a young earth with different assumptions. The Ice Cores are a good example of this.

Here’s just two examples I would like to have someone explain in an old earth perspective, because they should not be possible if dinosaurs have been dead for 65 million years.

Dinosaur blood found in a fossil:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0325Dino_tissue.asp

recent unfossilized dinosaur bones
http://answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i3/dinosaurbones.asp

Ryan/? 2012

I have seen Expelled...

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 5:47PM EST (link)

…you might be interested in this site as well:
http://www.expelledexposed.com/

I have not read an actual YEC book. I have heard YEC proponents present before. However I’m very familiar with Answers in Genesis and the arguments that AIG puts forth. If you know of a book that is better than what is on the AIG site please recommend it and I’d be happy to read it.

I certainly don’t accept what the MSM tries to spoon feed me. And I am also generally wary of academics as a group. But when we’re talking about scientists, we’re not just talking about ivory tower theorists. We are talking about biologists, geologists, engineers, physicists and so forth who are actively engaged in real field work in their disciplines. And in the case of the National Academy of Sciences, we’re talking about some of the most distinguished scientists in their fields who have usually made significant contributions to their area of science.

As for the logical fallacy…

My point is that the arguments put forth by design advocates are typically not new. Scientists have been exposed to some of these arguments for decades. Yet those arguments in regards to evolution have left almost all scientists completely unpersuaded.

Now I know that group think can be a real problem, but in this instance I confess that I find it hard to believe that all of these very distinguished people have discarded “design” science not because the found it wanting, but because they secretly desired to hide the truth from the public.

This is also the first I’ve heard of the “dinosaur blood” argument. I was able to find this if you are interested:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/blood.html

When we talk about scientists, we are talking about human beings trying to make a living and the virtue of courage or lack thereof

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 6:03PM EST (link)

and the fact is that MONEY is driving science in this area no less than in Galileo’s trial.

And if you don’t think the MSM is not selling a product they call “news” and that they have an agenda, then…I pray your reality mugging comes soon.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

I agree...follow the money

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 9:16PM EST (link)

Do a little digging into the Discovery Institute’s funding and let me know what you find out.

Being an ID advocate has worked out pretty well for Michael Behe. He gets to write books and collect speaking fees all over the country. All the while his biology colleagues at Lehigh University largely toil in obscurity as they dedicate their careers to making small contributions to real science.

anecdotal re Behe and quite beside the point except when we compare

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 9:58PM EST (link)

the total $$ being made on each side. And on that, it is no contest.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

So what are you suggesting exactly?

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 10:38PM EST (link)

I can’t exactly tell if this is what you are driving at — but is it your assertion that all the scientists that have dismissed ID knowingly.compromised their integrity and did so to keep their jobs and not because they found ID weak and scientifically baseless?

If I’m off base please correct me.

good question, and no, not "all", a word that hardly ever applies and is usually used as a red herring

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 10:51PM EST (link)

My point is that identifying one ID guy that is making money off the advocacy of same is akin to apologists for the Confederacy pointing out that some blacks in Louisiana owned slaves in 1861.

I’m not going to fill in any more blanks now because if you truly don’t get my point after seeing Expelled then I haven’t the time to educate you or you are being quite disingenuous.

see also the beam vs the toothpick in eyes in the New Testament….

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Mike, I just now saw this reply

settingsun (Diary) Saturday, May 9th at 4:21PM EST (link)

I will tell you that I simply subjected Expelled to the same scrutiny as Fahrenheit 9/11. I didn’t watch Farhernheit and suddenly became convinced that the Iraq War was unjust and that George Bush was a war criminal. I did my homework on the film and proceeded to give liberals fits as they tried to argue with me about the war citing the movie time and again..

If you really spend the time checking into Expelled I think you might come away at least slightly less convinced that there is some sort of inquisition against IDers. But if after doing that research your opinion was unchanged, I’m certain I could accept that without questioning your sincerity.

http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Well, I'm not in the habit...

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 3:31PM EST (link)

of calling anyone who disagrees with scientific consensus a hillbilly so no worries there.

For example, Todd Wood is an associate professor at Bryan College — a christian college in Tennessee — and received his PhD from the University of Virginia (no hillbilly). Wood believes the same things and participates in many of the same forums as do those you have listed. He has stated:

“I have hope because I’m a sinner saved by grace. That’s my whole reason. It’s not because I can refute evolution (I can’t) or because I can prove the Flood (I can’t) or because I can make evolutionists look silly (I don’t)”

Wood rejects evolution for religious not scientific reasons. The thing that stands out about Wood, and another professor Kurt Wise is that they are very honest about that.

As it happens I am familiar with several of the the sources you reference. You might also be interested in the website: http://www.expelledexposed.com/

The main problem I have with Answers in Genesis is that none of its scholars (nor any other young earth creationists or old earth creationists for that matter) have managed to publish any peer reviewed studies in a major science publication advancing a competing theory to evolution. Given that the easiest way to win a Noble Prize in science is to overturn an existing scientific consensus, it is interesting that no scholar has been able to get as much a single study published.

That is in pretty sharp contrast with those climate scientists who do contest the validity of man-made or man-worsened global warming. While they are in an obvious minority, they have had several peer reviewed studies published.

Another point for consideration is that the young earth creationism (that the earth is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old) espoused by groups like AIG is that while it is pretty easily refuted by evolutionary theory it is completely undermined by the geological forces we are witnessing right now. For example, if the earth were around 10,000 years old I’d be able to see the coast of Spain from New York City. We know that because we can track the shifting of plate tectonics through several different measurements including satellite imaging and measuring the rate of sea floor spreading at the bottom of the ocean.

The other thing that confuses me about AIG is that other Christians like Francis Collins (co-discoverer of the Human Genome) who is an evangelical christian and Ken Miller (author of one of the most widely used public school biology textbooks) and practicing catholic can both reconcile their faith while acknowledging the scientific fact of evolution.

It isn't possible to get a creationist article published in a peer-reviewed journal

tcgeol (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 3:42PM EST (link)

It has been tried numerous times and rejected every time because it “wasn’t good science.” One intelligent design article did manage to sneak through into one journal (I can’t remember which one) and it caused all sorts of problems – not because of any inherent problems with the science, but because it didn’t agree with the favored evolutionary framework.

That is an old canard that always is mentioned in creation/evolution disagreements, but is meaningless in real life.

Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger

Even the Left admits we’re Right

About that paper...

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 4:15PM EST (link)

I believe the paper you are referring to was by Steven Meyer — an intelligent design advocate. It was peer reviewed by…you guessed it…another ID proponent. There actually is quite a lot wrong with this paper scientifically. Here’s a link if you are interested.

http://pandasthumb.org/pt-archives/000430.html

With all do respect, another old canard is claiming that a conspiracy is preventing these kinds of studies from being published. It could just be that they simply don’t stand up to scrutiny.

Yeah, you are right here, I think.

larueladue (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 9:44PM EST (link)

Could it just be that the creationists are not doing good science? Yes, it could be, and in fact it is true. In all the work that I have looked at on this subject over the years (this was big in the early-mid ’80s: every geologist worth his salt studied this), every one of the bits of evidence that they presented have been refuted, multiple times by multiple other authors. There has not been a new fact presented by the creationist/intelligent design crowd in decades.

It just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. And I know of a lot of scientists that would actually like to see ID proved, or at least not laughed at, and it just cannot be done.

RATE research

ehud (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 3:40PM EST (link)

What about RATE research? That’s new science.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/1107rate.asp

Or what about the ‘Creation Research Journal’?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arj

If they’re not doing new research, how do they make a journal?

The reason they don’t do more research is they have a hard time getting funding.

Ryan/? 2012

 
 

with all due respect

ehud (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 3:42PM EST (link)

the claim that scientific journals and academic institutions are anything but extremely hostile to ID and creationism is absurd.

Ryan/? 2012

well maybe but...

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 4:26PM EST (link)

…isn’t there at least a chance that the arguments and the evidence put forth by YECers and IDers just might not meet the professional standards of these publications?

Yes, that possiblity definitely does exist.

tcgeol (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 4:10PM EST (link)

However, don’t you think it unlikely that no ID/creationist articles ever wiritten have ever had good science in them? If you don’t, then I would say that, whatever your past may be, you are judging them from a rather biased perspective. By that definition, you are verifying what we are saying – there is an institutional bias in the sciences that any non-evolutionary article is bad science. By those standards, no article will ever be published.

Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger

Even the Left admits we’re Right

 
 
 
 
 

Where Todd Wood is conserned...Look at it this way

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 7:00PM EST (link)

“I have hope because I’m a sinner saved by grace. That’s my whole reason. It’s not because I can refute evolution (I can’t) or because I can prove the Flood (I can’t) or because I can make evolutionists look silly (I don’t)”

The fact is…Creation Science doesn’t refute or disprove the possibility of evolution…nor does it intend nor need to. The whole point is…Evolution can’t do it either…because evolution is a theory based on evidence that noone questions exists….it’s the interpretation and the insistence that one interpretation is beyond question when it can not be observed while an alternative is therefore bunk when it can not be proven to be false.

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson
 

Once again...you make an assumption to call something fact...

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 7:47PM EST (link)

We know that because we can track the shifting of plate tectonics through several different measurements including satellite imaging and measuring the rate of sea floor spreading at the bottom of the ocean.

This whole point requires the assumption that tectonic plates have shifted from the beginning at the same rate…I would point you to Doctor Walter Brown and his theory to explain the possibility of an alternative to billions of years of gradual continental drift.

As to peer reviewed articles? I refer you to Doctor Robert Gentry and the book burning mob that chased him out of “Respectable” scientific circles and have blackballed him for testifying about the possibility as suggested by his finding of Palladium Halos frozen in place in granite which supposedly took thousands to millions of years to cool when Palladium has a half life of seconds…the fact that these halos are frozen in granite would be equivalent to freezing carbon bubbles within water instantaniously…

as for geographical sciences disproving a young earth…if you knew anything about what you are criticizing…there is an entire field of geological study that questions many of the most basic assumptions of geologic evolutionary theory…again…I point you to Mt Saint Hellens where there are thousands of geologic formations that were created almost instantaneously that were previously hypothesized to take billions of years…and their formation and the time it took for that formation is a documented fact…Evolutionary geology can’t even come close to documenting any of their old earth theories!

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

Robert Gentry

exitsfunnel Wednesday, May 6th at 8:33PM EST (link)

It’s a small point, buy why do you keep using the title ‘Dr’ to address Gentry? I’ve looked at his credentials and as far as I can see he has a masters degree in physics from the University of Florida, but no PhD.

-exits

I could be wrog butI thought he at least had a doctorate or PHD nt

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 11:18PM EST (link)
The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

It appears you are right...technically...He has an honorary doctorate

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 11:23PM EST (link)

Gentry received a masters degree in physics from the University of Florida, and thereafter worked in the defense industry, in nuclear weapons research.[1]

In 1959, under the influence of a televangelist, he converted to Seventh-day Adventism and strict creationism. Thereafter he entered the doctoral programme at Georgia Institute of Technology, but left when he was refused permission to work on the age of the Earth for his dissertation. By this time he was convinced that radiohalos might be “the key” to determining the age of the Earth, and vindicating flood geology. He continued to work on the subject at home using a small microscope, publishing his results (minus his creationist conclusions) in prestigious scientific journals. In 1969 while Gentry was affiliated with an Adventist college in Maryland, Oak Ridge National Laboratory invited him to use their facilities, as a guest scientist, in the hope that his work on radiohalos might lead to discovering super-heavy elements. This relationship was terminated as a result of his participation in McLean v. Arkansas.[1]

Gentry received an honorary doctorate of sciences from Columbia Union College.[2]

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

By the way...don't ask me why Wikipedia spends so much time on his religious beliefs...but then again...I guess we know don't we?...he must be discredited! nt

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 11:36PM EST (link)
The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson

People do the writing

SteveLA (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 11:54PM EST (link)

Ace

Wikipedia is people powered, so there is no organized conspiracy, just people who choose to write on the topic.

______________________________________

Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests

Conspiracies are people-powered too

Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 12:05AM EST (link)

And Wikipedia’s admins routinely lock people out after a particular point of view is set.

Jimbo has even taken a bribe to revert the content of a particular person’s article, reportedly.

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

Indeed

SteveLA (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 12:18AM EST (link)

And Wikipedia’s editors can be gods, or at least demigods.

But as they say in baseball and other places, it is what it is.

______________________________________

Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests

 

it is NOT a Conspiracy (per-se') when...

JLenardDetroit (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 1:04AM EST (link)

the people of like minds all congregate together in the same place to accomplish the same goals own their own. Many Liberals are willing to give of their time to work within the pages of Wiki because the Liberal leader allows them to do so and shuts-out others…. Not an out-right explicit Conspiracy…. but I do agree with Neil, Steve, and others that it does act like one and/or yields the same effect/result.

Like the MSM, they don’t set out to Liberal bias everything… it just happens that way because all the Liberals flock together in Journalism. It just happens that way, they can’t see their own bias and how it is so blatant to anyone else looking. All (at least, most) of the Editors are Ultra-Left and even reasonable stories can/will get a biased Headline and/or Liberal-ified editing to appropriate slant.

Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
“Liberals, looking to do for? America what they’ve done for? Detroit! which is DESTROY IT!”
“I think, therefore I am Conservative”
“Conservative by choice, Republican by necessity”
“You can lead a Liberal to the Truth/Facts, but you cannot make them THINK!”
“Romney [No, not my first choice] does NOT have a MORMON problem. He has a, far too many Americans; these days; are MORONS problem!”


(RS:Help) (JLD) (Hollyweird) (Brain-deads) (SPIN-cycle) (Obamaocare) (Party of kNOw) (Conservatism) (TEApeats) (respectful) (message) (Warning: Children Will Die!!)
Heil “O” Hell No Obamao is NOT MY PRESIDENT! “No U won’t”
I want “O” to FAIL (here, here, & whole Diary (Ofail) here, is why)
The first Liberal was Satan” – a Rush caller (other Quotes)

 
 

Ace You Are Deluding Yourself....

rcov092 (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 12:44AM EST (link)

I have seen plenty of instances of facist moderation imposed by The Order at Wikipedia. If you really want to get torqued, read the wiki on Garry Trudeau:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Trudeau

Read the section on “Controversies”. Just try to edit that section to take exception to the “symantical” games they are playing there. It will never see the light of day.

“Not One Red Dime for the NRSC or NRCC till they stop trying to elect liberals”

 
 

His Religious Beliefs

exitsfunnel Thursday, May 7th at 12:17AM EST (link)

The simple, almost undeniable truth is that if he hadn’t adopted a fundamentalist religious world view, he wouldn’t be in wikipedia. Neither you nor I nor anyone else would have ever heard of him. He’d be just some guy with a masters degree in physics.

-exits

 
 
 
 
 

Regarding Dr. Gentry....

settingsun (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 8:48PM EST (link)

I have heard of Gentry but hadn’t heard of this theory. I think that’s because he’s actually a physicist and not a geologist. He also holds to the steady state theory of the universe — that the universe is not expanding or contracting. Obviously we are watching the universe not only expand but actually accelerate.

As it relates to “polonium haloes” this has also been soundly refuted.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html

Here’s the conclusion:

Gentry’s polonium halo hypothesis for a young Earth fails, or is inconclusive for, all tests. Gentry’s entire thesis is built on a compounded set of assumptions. He is unable to demonstrate that concentric haloes in mica are caused uniquely by alpha particles resulting from the decay of polonium isotopes. His samples are not from “primordial” pieces of the Earth’s original crust, but from rocks which have been extensively reworked. Finally, his hypothesis cannot accommodate the many alternative lines of evidence that demonstrate a great age for the Earth. Gentry rationalizes any evidence which contradicts his hypothesis by proposing three “singularities” – one time divine interventions – over the past 6000 years. Of course, supernatural events and processes fall outside the realm of scientific investigations to address. As with the idea of variable radioactive decay rates, once Gentry moves beyond the realm of physical laws, his arguments fail to have any scientific usefulness. If divine action is necessary to fit the halo hypothesis into some consistent model of Earth history, why waste all that time trying to argue about the origins of the haloes based on current scientific theory? This is where most Creationist arguments break down when they try to adopt the language and trappings of science. Trying to prove a religious premise is itself an act of faith, not science.

Can't argue anything here...however..the author points out his own weaknesses inb his attacks on gentry's assumptions...

AceInTX (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 11:33PM EST (link)

I’m not a physicist and wouldn’t argue with the author’s conclusion…but here is what stands out to me…

Gentry’s polonium halo hypothesis for a young Earth fails, or is inconclusive for, all tests. Gentry’s entire thesis is built on a compounded set of assumptions.

Pot meet Kettle? Darwinism…(which has been abandoned now for spontaneous generation) doesn’t start from assumptions? As I pointed out before with my example of a bucket of water collecting water from a dripping faucet..or the possibility that tectonic plates may not have moved as slowly in the past as they do today…you can’t begin to age the earth using the methods used to do so without beginning from an unprovable assumption!

The “Big Tent” analogy isn’t the correct one…the correct one is a MAGNET…we need to be a MAGNET that draws these independents in who are sick and tired of what’s going on in WashingtonFred Thompson
 
 
 

you don't know that

ehud (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 3:35PM EST (link)

For example, if the earth were around 10,000 years old I’d be able to see the coast of Spain from New York City. We know that because we can track the shifting of plate tectonics through several different measurements including satellite imaging and measuring the rate of sea floor spreading at the bottom of the ocean.

You’re assuming they move at a constant rate.

All these supposed ‘disproofs’ of YEC are because the scientists use their evolutionary assumptions to interpret observations.

How do you explain this C14 in diamonds if the Earth is so old?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/radiocarbon-in-diamonds

Ryan/? 2012

I haven't heard of the C14 in diamonds example...

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 4:13PM EST (link)

…before. But I dug this up. I think it might cover what you are asking.

 

Thank you for recommending...

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 5:49PM EST (link)

…my diary by the way. It’s appreciated.

 
 
 
 

Here's his source

exitsfunnel Wednesday, May 6th at 2:37PM EST (link)

It makes for some interesting reading:

http://www.answersingenesis.org

-exits

 
 
 

Why he doesn't say that

exitsfunnel Wednesday, May 6th at 2:08PM EST (link)

Mike Pence can’t say what you suggest for one of the following two reasons (in increasing order of likelihood):

(a) He doesn’t believe in evolution.

(b) He recognizes that a sizable portion of the GOP is hostile to evolution science because it is at variance with what they believe to be the literal truths of their religious faith and as such he realizes that there would be political ramifications to the admission that he believes in evolution.

-exits

 

"Well Chris, without talking too far over your head..."

David Hinz (Diary) Wednesday, May 6th at 8:15PM EST (link)

“…there is ample evidence to demonstrate that ‘micro-evolution’ has and is taking place every day. Take the ‘peppered moth’ in England during the early days of the Industrial Revolution — clearly a product of ‘micro-evolution’ at work. But Chris, the theory of ‘macro-evolution’ — the idea that man ascended from apes or tree sloths has more holes in it than ‘Piltdown Man!’ What was your next question, Chris?”

5x5

skorrent1 (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 12:12AM EST (link)

Another one of the “shoulda said” set.

 
 

Political Correctness in NOT science

ExposeDemLiars (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 6:05PM EST (link)

I completely disagree with your impliation that conservatives are ambivalent towards science. Evolutuion, just like man-made global warming is disrt puted by huge amounts of scientific evidence and by thousands of scientists. Because we don’t close our minds to both sides and blindly accept the politically correct position, does not mean we don’t respect science. The only thing in science I don’t respect is scientists that hold political views that cannot be proven, and yet scoff at anyone that doesn’t agree with them. Let’s try to flip the coin. Science has proven that at the moment of conception, the dna of the fetus is unique. That means it is not part of the mothers body, but a separte human being. Liberals tend to ignore this science. Are they ambivalent to science also?

5

gonzo55 (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 6:34PM EST (link)

Yeah, mention to a lib that there’s a fair amount of evidence that the Earth is about 6,000 years old, and you get about the same reaction as if you tell him the earth is flat! It’s one thing to look at the evidence and conclude that it proves evolution is true (I, for example, believe there is strong evidence of micro-evolution), but it’s quite another to blindy accept that macroevolution MUST be true, regardless of the evidence, just because it ‘sounds plausible’

I like your abortion example, I’m going to bring that up next time I hear about how we come from monkeys.

“Facts are stubborn things” — Ronald Wilson Reagan

 

If liberals really cared about science and saving lives they would reject embryonic stem cell research

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 6:42PM EST (link)

for the same reason it would be silly to wash clothes in a river and not a wshing machine

iPS cells made from skin cells are the same as embryonic and much cheaper to produce

see here

http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law–Politics-Examiner~y2009m4d11-Never-refer-merely-to-stem-cells-and-always-promote-iPS-cells

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

 

The left does ignore science when it is inconvenient

settingsun (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:59PM EST (link)

As discussed up thread, I believe combing global warming and evolution is a mistake. For this reason:

The main problem I have with Answers in Genesis is that none of its scholars (nor any other young earth creationists or old earth creationists for that matter) have managed to publish any peer reviewed studies in a major science publication advancing a competing theory to evolution. Given that the easiest way to win a Noble Prize in science is to overturn an existing scientific consensus, it is interesting that no scholar has been able to get as much a single study published.

That is in pretty sharp contrast with those climate scientists who do contest the validity of man-made or man-worsened global warming. While they are in an obvious minority, they have had several peer reviewed studies published.

I write an entire blog dedicated to science and one of my main topics is the anti-science attitudes of the left.
http://conservativesforscience.blogspot.com/search/label/the%20left%20and%20science

http://conservativesforscience.blogspot.com/search/label/Politicizing%20Energy%20Science

Also note that my diary entry following this topic was about Senate Republicans rightfully calling Obama to task for failing to allow the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to conduct its formal science review before he gutted Yucca Mountain as a political favor to Harry Reid.

So yes, liberals can absolutely ignore science when it suits their political aims. I don’t think conservatives should conduct themselves likewise.

 
 

Ambivience toward science

ExposeDemLiars (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 6:35PM EST (link)

Liberals blindly believe in darwinism, yet they ignore Darwins on Single Cell Complexity test. By Darwins own validation test, if he knew the as much about the complexity of cells as we know today, his scientific testing would have failed. Are libeals ambivilent to science because they choose to ignore this?

Liberals blindly believe in man made global warming. Scientists from Russia, Australia, the US etc have signed petions to stop the politicins from claiming that mam made global warming is scientifically sound theory. It is not. Yet liberals only listen to the few scientists that endorse it and ignore all the scientific evidence against it. Are libeals ambivilent to science because they choose to ignore this?

Liberals blindly accept the big bang theory as the explanation for how the univere started. Scienist themselves however do not consider this the start of the universe, just the start of the expansion. There is no science based explanation for where the matter came from, where the space came from, or how the explosion was triggered. Scientists also point out that the expansion of the universe prooves there was a beginning. Liberals just bury their heads in the sand. Are libeals ambivilent to science because they choose to ignore this?

 

Please ignore my bad typing

ExposeDemLiars (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 6:40PM EST (link)

The typing in my previous posts was terrible, but the premise should still be clear.

 

Does anyone here believe that evolution proves no Creator?

DONTREADONME (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:44PM EST (link)

because I do not subscribe to the notion that evolution provides evidence of no creator. I believe in both, because what was before it was? BTW, there is no explanation before the so called “big bang” because time-space did not matter before because all that is now depends solely on the singularity. So, I do not understand the natural response to allow that God’s creation would be of no simple explanation for us. Anyway, I just wanted to chime in here.

Agreed

leftylurker (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:50PM EST (link)

Deeply faithful evolution believer here

OMG, I beginning to doubt my conservative credentials...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:53PM EST (link)

if I understand you correctly, faith in God and subscriber to evolution? then we are definitly in agreement.

hehe

leftylurker (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:56PM EST (link)

God is too big to be stopped by science. Science just helps us get a glimpse of God’s creation every once in awhile.

 
 
 

Yikes, let me clarify...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:51PM EST (link)

I subscribe to the notion that man’s scientific and mathematical explanations of the universe is relative and not absolute. Man’s ability to explain natural phenomena over the years has proven to be flawed on many occasions, Classical Physic explanation of the quantum world; therefore, Quantum Mechanics, but even that branch of physics is in precise.

So to clarify, I believe in evolution to some degrees as man’s current explanation, and believing in such, does not affect my belief in God. I believe man’s explanation can never match God’s design.

Hope it wasn't me that made you clarify =)

leftylurker (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:53PM EST (link)

I still agree with ya.

Nope...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 8:55PM EST (link)

I think we are in agreement, I just thought my comment was a little vague and confusing.

 
 
 

science & evolution & stuff

Gyorc Nacain Thursday, May 7th at 9:19PM EST (link)

I agree that evolution and the existence of God are not mutually exclusive.

Now, in our every day lives we don’t really see evidence of divine intervention – the universe unfolds according to a certain set of rules. But to me all that shows is that God created said rules and wants the Universe to abide by them. And if you look at the rules – especially when you get into things like relativity & quantum mechanics – you realize that anyone who designed that stuff must be hella smart.

We have a tendency to view God as making a sudden intervention into the world, in an obvious way that could never be mistaken as a natural occurrence – like the sky opening up and the voice of God booming down. That’s because when we humans intervene in events around us, we do so in a similarly blunt fashion. So then people don’t see such things happening, and assume it is due to an absence of God. But God’s intervention is more subtle and elegant than a booming voice; God doesn’t need to open up the sky and move things around by hand, because God designed the rules by which the universe operate. If that’s hard to imagine, then that is due to the limits of human intellect.

For example: some ancient people probably thought that the Sun was God moving a light across the sky, by hand, every day. Eventually humanity discovered all sorts of things about gravity, celestial bodies, and nuclear fusion, and we can now explain the Sun as a natural occurrence, following natural laws, like the laws of gravity and atomic theory and etc. But, that doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist, it just means that God created gravity, and atomic theory, and etc.

Same idea with evolution. God created the rules by which the Universe operates, and doesn’t like to break them. But if God’s intention was to create humanity, then clearly God did a good job.

even when man thinks they found the answer...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Thursday, May 7th at 9:31PM EST (link)

we always find out that we missed something. I am with you on your explanation.

Just look at Quantum Mechanics and the pinpointing of subatomic particles at a given time and location and then also know the momentum and direction it is moving specifically. Can not be achieved with the current level of man’s understanding; therefore, it would seem there is an infinite amount of information that we are to understand, which of course we know from limits we will never really reach.

I am with you on the direct obvious impact of God’s direct intervention in the world (w/ the exception of Jesus) would thus negate the need for faith; however, others with stronger faith than I will see those strange happenings as God’s direct intervention and that is great. One of the mysteries of faith is the notion of man’s doubt. I truly work hard to keep my faith in the midst of doubt as an engineer and scientist, but for some reason my doubt can not overcome the faith, it is just an annoyance.

 
 
 

Pence's response should have been; "Why is this important? Have you ever asked a Democrat this sort of question?" [nt]

Martin Knight (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 11:01AM EST (link)

Of Course Not

redstatebluestate123 (Diary) Friday, May 8th at 12:11PM EST (link)

All the Democrats would say yes, there wouldn’t be anything difficult. It’s more of a challenge for Republicans because they have to figure out how to avoid pissing off the Republican voters who think evolution is a sham while simultaneously placating the moderates who think of the Republicans as anti-science.

I actually thought that John McCain had a good answer to this question, although I’m slightly biased because it is also my answer.

No. Republicans need to stop playing by the Left's rules.

Martin Knight (Diary) Monday, May 11th at 7:46PM EST (link)

The proper response would have been to question the legitimacy of the question, then turn the tables around and ask Matthews (who claims to be a Catholic) what his own beliefs and how does that square with his religious beliefs, point out that many Democrats profess to be Christians (i.e. Obama) and therefore they must also believe God created the Earth and everything in it.

Why are they never asked such a question?