Cain’s 999 Plan: Can we at least get the basics right?


A number of self proclaimed smart people have analyzed Herman Cain’s 999 plan.  Some, like WaPo’s “Fact Checker”  don’t apparently know the most basic fact about payroll taxes– that is, how much they really are.  To demonstrate — “fact checker” claims that payroll taxes are “7.65″ percent of wage income.  Please look at the form 941 for this year .  This is the form the employer files with the IRS when he or she pays payroll taxes.  Add up all the numbers.  The total of Social Security and Medicare is 13.3 percent.  Now factchecker later sort of alludes to the part the employer pays and claims that this is not really a payroll tax on the employee, its a payroll tax on the employer.  Hey factchecker, I am an employer.  If I don’t pay an employee, I don’t have to pay the matching part.  Really.  And its going to go back up to 15.3 percent next year absent congressional action.  Now, in what reality is it that the part I pay is not really an employment cost?  If I have no employees, I don’t have to pay it.  When I calculate the cost of hiring an employee, I include that plus the unemployment tax and the worker’s compensation policy I have to carry.  Not to mention the state disability insurance and the state unemployment insurance.  Hey “factchecker”  get your facts straight.  And to Redstate Readers, let’s stop pretending that there are a lot of employed people who don’t pay taxes.  Yes, we carefully say “income taxes”.  But when we do that we are participating in the liberal lie.

See, this is why some of us call Social Security a Ponzi scheme– it isn’t JUST that the money I was paying in all those years (heck, I’m still paying it) was not going into some account to be kept safe until I reached age 66, it is that all the politicians conspired to lie to us about it.  So they don’t say, we’re going to levy a flat tax on all payroll of 15.3 percent.  No, they call it the Federal Insurance Contributions Act, that makes it sound like we’re investing in an insurance policy.    They tell us that our employers are having to pay the other half as if that wouldn’t other wise be money in our pockets that is going into the federal pocket.  They do that so we will not have to see, on every paycheck, how much of the money we earn is actually going to the federal government.

They did drop the scam when it came to financing Medicare and do call that a tax, but they are all taxes.  What is the difference between payments on an insurance policy and taxes?  Well, we all know that.  I actually own the insurance policy.  When I pay taxes I haven’t acquired any rights that cannot be taken away from me by the next congress.  So the truth is that every single one of us who works at a job above board and complies with the law is paying a flat payroll tax, self employed included.  We see the whole amount.   And, of course, despite all talk of lockboxes and social security trustfunds, just like in a Ponzi scheme, when there was a lot more money coming in than was necessary to pay off the early participants– i.e. back in the 90′s, the excess was “borrowed” to spend on other projects. Now those of us who paid the taxes back then are being treated like the doofuses some of us were because some of us (not I) actually believed all the bull about the trust funds and all the other deceptions.

So if you exchange a 15.3 percent payroll tax for a 9 percent payroll tax, that is a reduction.  Right?  At least for people making less than $107,000 a year.  But the liberal, and some conservative pundits actually claim not to understand that the share the employer pays is really a) a payroll tax and b) money that the employee earned by performing services for the employer.  So it is coming out of the employee’s pocket, it is just that the scheme is set up to promote class warfare by letting people think that money that their employer pays for their services that doesn’t show up as a dollar amount on their paycheck is somehow money that they didn’t earn.

Can conservatives at least tell the truth?  Pension benefits, medical benefits, employment insurance– these are all compensation for employment and if that money wasn’t used to pay for all those benefits it would be going in the employee’s pocket.  That is what any economist worth his salt will tell you.



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12 Comments Leave a comment

It's 9% plus 9%

clintonformccain Friday, October 14th at 9:29PM EST (link)

The 9% corporate tax is really a VAT tax and must be paid on all the money paid to employees as wages. Then, the employees pay their 9% income tax. So, every dollar paid in wages is subject to an 18% tax, half paid by the employer, half by the employee. Then, whatever the employee spends is taxed a third time with the 9% national sales tax.

Then we have a 15 to 35 % VAT now

Craigpennsylvania (Diary) Friday, October 14th at 9:40PM EST (link)

The corporate tax is not a VAT as proposed by Cain. The 9 percent is on actual profit, not gross sales.

It is a tax on gross income/revenues

clintonformccain Friday, October 14th at 10:39PM EST (link)

It is a VAT. It is a tax on all gross revenues. The only exclusions are purchases from other US business, capital investment, and net exports. There is no exclusion for any other business expense, including wages.

Here is the exact working from Cain’s website:

9% BUSINESS FLAT TAX

•Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports.
•Empowerment Zones will offer deductions for the payroll of those employed in the zone

The employer pays 9% on everything, including wages. The employee pays another 9% on the same wages. And, then the same wages get taxed again when the employees spends money.

Meanwhile, we will have added two new taxes: a national sales tax and a business VAT.

What is a VAT?

Craigpennsylvania (Diary) Sunday, October 16th at 10:45AM EST (link)

A VAT is a tax on purchases from other businesses. It is short for Value Added Tax. When company “A” buys, say, raw materials from company “B”, the VAT is added to the priice paid for the raw materials. Every vertical purchase from the raw material to the final sale to the consumer is taxed under a VAT.

The link you provided does is a text book definition that the VAT is NOT a part of 999.

Every analysis of the 999 plan has shown that the flat 9% income tax bringing in about 3.5 times the revenue that the business tax portion brings in.

If the assertion were true that all wages would also be subject to the 9% tax at the employer end, then the business tax would HAVE to show a higher revenue stream than would the income tax, as the corporate tax would b 9% on wages PLUS 9% on profits.

 
 
 
 

you are correct that replacing the 15.3 (which is what it will be) payroll tax with 9% would be

kyle8 (Diary) Sunday, October 16th at 10:56AM EST (link)

a reduction. Which is precisely why it will never be adopted.

In case you haven’t noticed we are broke. Our country is broke. The pressure to RAISE taxes will become almost unbearable in the near future, and there will be no desire to actually lower taxes.

Best that can be hoped for would be to make the current low tax rates permanent.

“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle

 

For the record

Craigpennsylvania (Diary) Sunday, October 16th at 11:28AM EST (link)

ClintonforMcCain – I am not necessarily an advocate of the 999 plan. It is clear that Mr. Cain needs to clarify it a great deal. It, along with a straight flat tax or national sales tax (fair tax) are all ideas worth exploring.

In my personal opinion, WAY too much emphasis has been place on elminating the requirement that the bottom 50% of income earners having to pay taxes.

The myth is that (as we have all seen) the wealthy don’t pay a “fair share”. Most Red Staters know this isn’t true.

What IS true is we have place a strong “dis-incentive” for people to make more in terms of income, because not only do rates go up, free “goodies” from the government decrease.

If people will allow, the type of simple tax reform that people today will endorse would be something simple, fair and SOMEWHAT skewed to having the lower 50% of income earners paying a net rate that is less than the top 50%.

I was recently asked what my “dream package” would be in terms of tax reform.

My answer was this:

A. Two tax rates: 15 and 25 %.

B. Eliminate FICA taxes

C. A flat deduction of $5000 for a single taxpayer, $10,000 for a married household and $2500 per child.The only other deductions are to charity, and they have to be cash contributions. The duductions would be indexed for inflation.

D. Cap Gains would be taxed as ordinary income, but indexed for inflation. There would be a simply multiplier for inflation provided each year.

As an example, if total inflation for a 12 year period was 50%, and the stock you bought 12 years ago for $10,000 now sold for $15,000, you made no REAL profit, so your tax is $0.

If this stock was worth $20,000, your profit is $5000.

E. Dividends and Interest Income are taxed as ordinary income, regardless the source. This includes muni bonds. They pay higher rates than we can get from banks, and the idea that people can make 6 digit incomes tax free would have to go.

F. Inheritance tax eliminated.

G. The 15% tax would be up to $150,000. This $150,000 level would be indexed for inflation.If inflation is 3 percent in year one, then the threshold becomes $154,500 in year 2.

H. Income over this threshold is taxed at 25 percent.

I. Corporate tax is eliminated. Since all income to shareholders, employees, board members, etc, is taxed on a flat basis, this would be a HUGE boost to businesses wanting to expand. This would make our exports cheaper. Overseas companies would want to build here.

J. Expatriated profits welcomed back with no taxes.

K. Earned Income Tax Credit eliinated.

All of these ideas are pro growth. They assist families. They encourage growth. They are not regressive. They encourage the working poor to make more without them having to worry about losing “goodies”.

By taxing all proceeds paid by corporations/businesses to the board members as ordinary income, but keeping the levels no higher than 25%, everyone has “skin in the game”.

Do you have a gross revenue estimate under this model?

acat (Diary) Sunday, October 16th at 11:38AM EST (link)

I’m just curious whether this would bring in near enough … It’s an appealing model, but it appears that it would reduce revenue a bit too far.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

This was based on looking at the Flat Tax ideas

Craigpennsylvania (Diary) Sunday, October 16th at 12:57PM EST (link)

acat – I looked at the Flat tax ideas which are out in the public domain now. Here are the typical proposals for the “family of four”

1. A flat 17 percent tax.
2. A $30,000 avg. deduction
3. Cap gains and dividends are not taxed
4. Interest is not taxed
5. Charitable contributions are not allowable deductions

The typical analysis (which was a static analysis, not dynamic) showed that the flat tax would be about 20 percent “short” of the current tax system.

“My” proposal (the quotes are because I don’t want to sound obnoxious) does the following, compared to the straight flat tax:

1. It broadens the tax base further with a lower starting rate and lower deductions.

2. It brings into the revenue stream dividends. interest and cap gains income that most flat taxes exclude. To be quite “blunt”, I don’t think we can exclude these types of incomes. By eliminating corporate taxes, we would have the incentive for companies to reinvest for growth. A company can reinvest ALL its profits without the tax burden. BUT – when the individuals in the company take a large bonus, regardless how it is taken, it is now taxable income.

By taxing moneys as it is paid out of corporations, we keep the playng field “fair” to all while not inhibiting growth.

3. My estimate is this program would bring in about 25% more revenue, on a static basis, than would the flat taxes as proposed. Unfortunately, all I have to go by is the math as currently shown by current flat tax proposals.

I took those estimates and other info from the IRS tax collection files, and came up with this estimate.

4. As with the Flat tax proposals, I think economic growth would be very strong with the basics as described. I am not so personally “invested” in this proposal as to not look at others, but do think it’s an approach that would gain a wide variety of supporters.

SO … to answer your question as well as I can with my limited resources for analysis … I think this would generate the previously mentioned 25% higher revenue than the flat tax plans I have read.

Let’s look at three different families or taxpayers.

Family “A” makes $30,000 per year with two children.

$30,000 – $15,000 = $15,000.

$15,000 x 15% = $2250

Famly “B” is a doctor making $200,000 per year with two children.

$200,000 – $15,000 = $185,000

$35,000 x 25% = $8750
$150,000 x 15% = $22,500

Total = $31,250

Taxpayer “C” is the Hedge Fund Manager. Of course, he isn’t married and made $10,155,000 on his hedge fund profits.

$10,155,00 – $5000 = $10,150,000

$150,000 x 15% = $22,500
$10,000,000 x 25% = $2,500,000

Family “B” made 6.67 times as much as family “A”, but paid 13.89 times as much in taxes.

“C” (aka the single guy) made 338.5 times as much as family “A”, but paid 1121.1 times as much in taxes.

With Respect.... all of this misses the point...

scruffies Sunday, October 16th at 5:48PM EST (link)

Lots of thought and effort into the reponses, but to me it all misses the point, which is: regardless of your favorite income plan the fed. gov. has unlimited spending authority. Whether it’s 9-9-9 or Flat or Fair or whatever, we outspend our revenue by about 47% which is borrowed because our congress has no limit on spending, and as long as that’s the case, debating revenue options won’t matter.

And before you get too “balanced budget” warm and comfortable, consider that most states, like mine California, require a so called balanced budget and yet are VERY broke. Any proposed balanced budget amendment that would actually pass would have so many loopholes in it to make it mostly worthless. Don’t think for a minute that a building full of lawyers with green shades won’t find ways to blast thru any balanced budget language (just think “commerce clause”).

And…. considering that half of our citizens pay nothing towards the costs of our federal government (remember, payroll taxes are supposed to be for social security someday, and medicare taxes for medicare someday, both to benefit the person paying those taxes rather than paying for current federal expenses) it’s easy to understand why those people want greater and greater federal services that the other half pay for. What a surprise that polls consistantly reflect that those who would not be affected by a proposed tax increase support it on those who would.

So what to do?

First step is for our populace to reaffirm and reestablish the founder’s vision that the federal government was to have a very limited role with most services provided by the states and localities.

Second, we need to dramatically REDUCE the size (and that means number of employees) of the federal government. For example, Obama has added over 200,000 employees. Would it be possible to somehow get by as we did in 2008 without them? Lastly, once we know how big we really need the federal governement to be (and I mean which departments and number of employees), let’s CAP it at that size, perhaps requiring super majority votes to increase the cap, and then only for a few years at a time.

Thirdly, of course we need SS and Medicare/gap reform which is a whole new thread.

Once we know the size and cost of a federal government that the people who will pay for it can afford, then we can debate the best way to fund it, but until then, let’s focus on shrinking it and capping it. Then we might hope that 9-9-9 doesn’t become 19-19-19.

It's somewhat self-correcting, scruffies.

acat (Diary) Sunday, October 16th at 6:10PM EST (link)

The Federal Government, historically, runs on around 18% of GDP.

When they try to take more – as they are doing now – the private sector contracts *more* than the difference, lowering the government take.

When they try to spend more – as they are doing now – the private sector refuses to buy their debt at low rates, thus further increasing the cost.

For those of us who remember the Carter administration clearly, the parallels are a little eerie.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

They are two separate issues

Craigpennsylvania (Diary) Sunday, October 16th at 6:13PM EST (link)

scruffles, I have posted in other conversations here the need for cutting spending. For you to say discussing tax policy is “missing the point” is rather condescending.

An even larger battle is looming between those who survive on Government checks and those who pay taxes. We are in agreement on this point. The point was not missed, it was merely not a part of this thread.

But, since you brought it up, it is going to get ugly gettinf spending back under 20 percent of GDP.

Public Unions (meaning govt. employees outside the military, Receivers of Entitlements … ALL these people are going to get REALLY cranky when those of us who pay the bills (aka the taxpayers) tell these people “enough”.

It’s going to take a lot of strength from our side to win this.

 
 
 
 
 

Typos

Craigpennsylvania (Diary) Sunday, October 16th at 11:31AM EST (link)

Apologies for my typos. :)