Welcome to the fold: continuing a conversation on tone in the political discourse


Yesterday at American Thinker, I ran into an open letter from a recovering liberal, making amends for his past. It’s an interesting continuation of my previous post, concerning tone in the political debate as it regards liberals & conservatives. My basic contention is that, generally speaking, the left is either unwilling or incapable of engaging in a civilized, point for point debate on the issues, with a few exceptions I’m sure. 

I’m not talking about snark. Snark is an acceptable tone of response, if not an occasionally irritating one. I’m talking about responses to arguments that don’t deal with issues, facts, or points at all but immediately degenerate to vile ad hominem attacks. Take some of the responses to my Monday post that I didn’t put in the comments section, but rather relegated to the spam folder. Here are a few snippets from bobxxxx:

“Creation Matters” can be translated to “MAGIC Matters”. You, sir, really are nuts if you think anyone is going to be impressed by your ignorant Liars-For-Magic.

It would appear that bob disagrees with me, but he doesn’t further the debate, he’s simply rudely dismissive. In another well thought out and constructed comment, he says:

Speaking of morons, the author of this article is an idiot and a liar. There are exactly zero competent biologists who doubt the truth of evolution. All the evidence supports it. Only Liars for Jeebus have a problem with evolution because they’re cowards who are terrified of reality.

Now, that’s scientific evidence that’s difficult to argue with! Again, he hasn’t engaged in the conversation, he has angrily dodged the conversation and attempted to marginalize anyone who would think differently from him, with more personal attacks. Here’s my favorite:

I have a suggestion for creationists who like to complain about name calling. If you don’t like being called a drooling idiot, why don’t you god-soaked hicks grow up and educate yourselves. Every educated person knows the basic facts of evolution are the strongest facts of science. Religious alternatives are childish fantasies and anyone who believes these insane creation myths deserves to be ridiculed. Also, anyone who tries to rename their childish belief in magic to “intelligent design” is a bloody liar who wants to destroy America’s science education. They deserve nothing but contempt. So creationists, just stop being so dishonest, and stop being so hopelessly stupid, and us educated people might stop laughing at you.

If bobxxxx is an educated person, he has failed to let any of that education leak into his posts or his thoughts, and has instead failed to achieve even the lowest level of conversation. I wish bobxxxx were the exception. Unfortunately, he’s not.

Which brings me back to the letter at American Thinker. Robin, the author, after apologizing to many of those impacted by her years of liberalism begins to delve into why she would switch sides:

In February of 2008, I saw a new client, a bright and sensitive young woman who came in looking like she just escaped a war zone. In some ways she had; she had innocently shared with others at her job that she voted for Hillary rather than Obama. Immediately she was being targeted for abuse that put her in fear for not only her job, but her life.

So it is not enough to be a liberal, you must be the RIGHT KIND of liberal. You didn’t hear about supports of Romney being targeted for attack by Huckabee supporters, we played the game, voted in the primaries, and then wished we had voted for someone different (McCain snark). Robin goes on:

Things went from bad to worse when Sarah Palin entered the scene. When Geraldine Ferraro ran for Vice President, there was no debasement of her character, no sexual threats. But with Palin, a full scale “wilding” ensued that chillingly reminded me of the random sexual attacks on women by gangs of men in New York. She was called every vile name in the book by both male and female liberals.

This, to me, was the great question of the campaign. Where were the feminists in support of a woman rising to the top? Light bulbs should go on, radical leftist feminism isn’t about advancement of women, it’s about destruction of the system. Sarah Palin was a threat, despite her gender, so she was fair game. The mask came off, and I hope people noticed.

Actress Sandra Bernhardt hoped a gang of black males would rape her.

Remember that? What would the response have been had Dennis Miller hoped that Michelle Obama would suffer the same fate by a gang of skin heads?

The final straw for me was when a close friend flew into a rage at me when she learned I wasn’t supporting Obama. The political became personal when she began impugning my character. Worse yet, she tried to intimidate me into changing my mind by threatening to dump me.

President Obama ran on promises to change the tone in Washington. To a degree I don’t hold him responsible. These closed-minded biggots aren’t marching at his orders, they are slaves to their own smallishness. They are afraid of ideas, and they are aware of their inability to hold an adult conversation, so they revert to interrupting, fillibustering, and attacking any person who would differ or disagree with them.

On the other hand, President Obama and his administration hasn’t been above reproach. White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs can’t help but be insulting, arrogant, and repeatedly going back to bashing those who have gone before before answering serious questions about the current administration. President Obama himself has taken personal shots at Rush Limbaugh. Whether he likes or agrees with Rush (and no one would mistake that he does), the President has set the tone of discourse in this country.

Regardless of the substance of the debate, there is little hope for reconciliation in America unless we can begin to communicate. My invitation to those on the left is to engage with facts rather than attacks. Debate the veracity and merit of the issues and policy, not people.

I am proud to be a conservative, mostly because I believe conservative ideals put for the best hope for America to thrive again, politically and socially. See, no matter how much you think such and such a program will be nicer and kinder to people… it will only be as kind as the people who administer it. So far, from what I’ve see on the left, there’s not much hope for change in the current administration.

Crossposted with updates at realityunwound



RSS feed

37 Comments Leave a comment

One slight

reaganite23 (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 11:21AM EST (link)

correction: it was Sandra Bernhard who made the rape comment about Palin not Sarah Bernhardt the silent film actress who died in 1923.

“As government expands, Liberty contracts.”
– Ronald Reagan

Thank you for that.

realityunwound (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 1:44PM EST (link)

n/t

http://www.realityunwound.com

 
 

There is NO potential for reconciliation.

Achance (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 11:35AM EST (link)

A full-blown lefty simply does not process information the same way we do. Either because of belief, rarely, or simply indoctrination, what they “feel” is truth and logic. In fact, they would deny the concepts of truth and logic as we would define them. “Truth” to a lefty is whatever it feels to be true, and it might feels something else is “true” tomorrow or some other day. The conservative notion that there is “Truth” in some absolute form is just another kind of magical thinking to them, about as dumb as believing that there might be some power greater than yourself or that there was anything in existence before you were there to perceive it. As to logic with all its mathmatical rules and forms, why that’s just a system of linear thinking devised by dead white men who oppressed women and people of color and is just another part of that system of oppressive thinking that should be relegated to the dustbin of history.

These “people” are simply to be relegated to powerlessness if our society is to survive in any recognizable form. Common decency and site rules prohibit me from saying what I’d like to do to the more vehement ones, the useful idiots I can tolerate because, well, because they’re idiots.

In Vino Veritas

Bingo!

IJB Wednesday, May 13th at 12:38PM EST (link)

I don’t want to make piece with the Left – I want them gone. Even powerlessness for them isn’t enough to satisfy people like me.

 

I think they used to call it "brainwashing."

larueladue (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 6:27PM EST (link)

That is what passes for education in the public schools the last 20 years…

 

Knowledge of facts led me away from a leftward course

David123 (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 1:02AM EST (link)

I remember in 1972, the left getting all outraged about Nixon’s “terror” bombing of North Viet Nam that resulted in about 1,000 dead North Vietnamese. Well that didn’t compute for me – I knew how many people had died in raids conducted with 2-engine or 4-engine bombers in WW2. With 8-engine B-52s, if we were doing real terror bombing there would have been VASTLY more than 1,000 dead North Vietnamese. So I realized these leftist criticisms of America and Nixon were false.

But, sometimes you have to know history to realize how wrong leftist talking points are.

David123

 

leftist make fun of conservative sites

Lord_Vegas (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 10:32PM EST (link)

like Redstate or TMR because we insist on “links” and other proofs. Why should you be expected to be able to prove your assertions — or to link to the evidence supporting your position.

liberalism is a form of insanity

__________
When I was your age….heck, I was NEVER your age

===========================
The Minority Report Network
===========================

 
 

Excellent article

daconia (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 11:40AM EST (link)

The far left’s agenda is utopian fantasy which is incompatible with reality. Therefore, rational arguments for such fantasy do not exist, and they strike out with character assassination when threatened. See http://www.redstate.com/stephc/2009/05/11/and-what-did-obama-do/ for a little uplifting humor.

 

GREAT diary...I couldn't recommend more because...

JadedByPolitics (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 1:31PM EST (link)

if I could it would be at the top….the Sarah Palin portion you hit on is the argument I have been making about her and how women in particular who have NOT debased themselves to the hardcore left were horrified at how she and even Hillary were treated by these so called “women’s” groups….I truly would like to see Sarah start an organization for working women w/familes who are Conservative….I would rather she do that then run for President because she can YANK that carpet right out from under NOW and plunk them all right on their hateful heads.

Women are a HUGE portion of the Conservative base and you really only need listen to talk radio.,..there are 2 women to every man calling in….it is untapped and the potential to END the travesty that is NOW or as I call them the National Organization of liberal Women would change one of our cultural problems as a party that plague our country. WE Conservative women are the answer to very HIGH self esteem with our man right by our side and WE need to get the message out!

The difference between Sarah Palin & Janeane Garrofalo

realityunwound (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 1:50PM EST (link)

Is that Palin is going to be straightforward, and tell the truth in calm measured tones, and Garrofalo is going to speculate about the state of conservative’s limbic brains. Palin, to me, typifies what it looks like to demonstrate class and dignity in the face of utter and baseless contempt.

http://www.realityunwound.com

A quick vignette, that speaks to Palin's class and personal decency...

smagar (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 10:09AM EST (link)

At some point during the campaign, Palin and Tina Fey met. When asked about it later, Fey remarked that Palin was gracious. Fey, on the other hand, has basked in the Left’s adolation of her for helping wound Palin’s image at a critical time.

“Who will stand/On either hand/And guard this bridge with me?” (Macaulay)

 
 
 

great job reality...reco'd!!!.....nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 1:48PM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Thanks A.G.

realityunwound (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 1:52PM EST (link)

I saw that you weighed in on the I.D. conversation the other day. Good stuff there all around. It’s good to see vigorous debate not become a free for all.

http://www.realityunwound.com

thanks reality....

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 1:54PM EST (link)

I tried to be somewhat respectful…;^)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 

Good points, reality...

azaeroprof (Diary) Wednesday, May 13th at 2:18PM EST (link)

now make sure to refer to folks like bobxxxxxxxxxx, Janene Garofalo, and Sandra Burnhard (misspelling intentional) using the new ‘it’ phrase:
They’ve ‘jumped the shark into crazytown’!!!

 

Selective perception

patriot2030 Thursday, May 14th at 12:32PM EST (link)

Seems like a case of selective perception. Fact is, hyperpartisans on both right and left act that way. They want to believe what they want to believe, for emotional reasons, so even if they get into “facts” and “specifics”, they don’t approach the discussion with any reasonable degree of objectivity and they don’t discuss matters in good faith, as some genuine search for truth. Their sense of identity, belonging, superiority, etc. are wrapped up in sticking to particular positions and types of positions, so they are only engaging in discussion or debate to reinforce their views (and to vent), not to try to really test their views and consider the possibility that they might be wrong.

Spoken like true moby...

azaeroprof (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 12:48PM EST (link)

and your excursion here from the kos gutter is mean to “discuss matters in good faith, as some genuine search for the truth”. Well, guess what, by coming here you’ve stumbled onto “the truth”, but I’ll bet you wouldn’t recognize it if it spit in your face. Enjoy your short time here, dream of sobriety (as in kicking the kool-aid habit), and don’t let the blam stick hit you on the arse on the way out!

that was pretty harsh dude

kyle8 (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 12:54PM EST (link)

I did not get any of that from Pat2030′s posts.

It is perfectly all right for a lefty to blog here as long as they are civil.

“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle

Hey Patriot...Kyle just called you a 'Lefty'...

speciallist (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 12:57PM EST (link)

evidence

patriot2030 Thursday, May 14th at 2:08PM EST (link)

I guess they are providing evidence of how much more rational, fact-based, and objective the right is than the left.

watch it.

Caleb Howe (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 2:35PM EST (link)

nt

Caleb Howe (formerly known as absentee)

 
 
 

Yeah, you're right...

azaeroprof (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 1:10PM EST (link)

I’ll go along with Janis’ comments below, but assuming patriot to be a kos kid was a leap. If you’re reading this patriot, my apologies (unless you are indeed a kos kid, in which case I meant everything I said!).

 
 
 

My, patriot, aren't you the superior one. I've read all your comments

janis (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 12:57PM EST (link)

from the past three days. Just loved the one where you wanted both sides to compromise and come up with a good spending/entitlement/tax plan. What a load of hooey. Do you think that this bunch in charge now is EVER going to compromise when they control all the levers of power right now? If so, then you are smoking some really good stuff.

You can stand off to the side looking down your nose at those who are trying to effect change, or you can get some skin in the game, but you can’t do both. My guess is that you prefer the professorial air that you think makes you look untouched by the base passions of anyone who believes in principles and trying to govern accordingly. My other guess is that you are the only one who finds that behavior honest and mature. Me? I find it cowardly.

 

How does that fence post you sit on

Leopard1996 (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 1:06PM EST (link)

Feel tickling your adams apple. Look, there is no more compromises to be had, you either support individual freedom or you don’t. You either think the govenment takes too much of your money our you don’t. You either believe that the govenment is trying to regulate every aspect of your behavior with things like cap and trade, and taxes no cigarettes and soda, or you don’t.

Compromising on these principles have gotten us to the point we are at now. The repubs gave inches when they were in control, and now that the DKOS leftist types (Pelosi, Reid, Obama) are in control, they are taking a mile.

“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen

more evidence

patriot2030 Thursday, May 14th at 2:10PM EST (link)

More evidence that many on the right engage in the same silly, conversation-stopping hyperbole as their counterparts on the left.

And yet more evidence that you prefer to sit up

janis (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 2:22PM EST (link)

on your pedestal sneering at those you label as “less than”. If you are getting the same reaction from those on the left, did it ever occur to you that nobody has any use for your remarks on either side?

 

Hi there, patriot2030

Jeff Emanuel (Diary) Thursday, May 14th at 2:59PM EST (link)

Well, this was fun for a while, but quite frankly you’re boring me now. Have a nice life.

JE

 

Sorry to offend your sensibilities

Leopard1996 (Diary) Friday, May 15th at 10:48PM EST (link)

But there are times when there can be no compromise, and I am personally am tired of seeing things as we have to be nice, while those on the left end of the spectrum can go with impunity and slash and burn conservatives as racists or rednecks, the evil rich, religious zealots, and overall non-intellectual.

I personally will give no quarter, no retreat from my beliefs, and no surrender in an argurement when it comes down to my libertarian beliefs of smaller government, and protection of individual freedom, and anyone that stands against that deserves the disdain that I will show for them.

“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen

 
 
 

Well said patriot. nt

Britcom (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 1:14AM EST (link)

..

“The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity.” – Rollo May

Is America a Democracy or a Republic?

Click here to check out my Blog.

 
 

Here Here! nt

Britcom (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 1:08AM EST (link)

.

“The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity.” – Rollo May

Is America a Democracy or a Republic?

Click here to check out my Blog.

 

I've made my views known

LibRick (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 11:46AM EST (link)

here regarding thoughtful political discourse and the lack of it on most left political blogs. One only needs to click on any popular left blog to find even more egregious examples that would further underpin your thesis.

However, while the left dominates in dogma over debate, as a liberal, I must employ the “well you do it too” ( I know, my kids never got away with it either) argument.

The right has more than a few internet forums that don’t embrace discussion over dogma. The Free Republic site would be one example and there are others. Granted, they are not operating on the same plane as Redstate but they are out there and are part of the political landscape.

By the way, up-thread, patriot2030, pretty much made your case. So I got nothing now. Thanks patriot. Hey RS, throw me a bone here.

Bone you want, bone you got.

mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 12:00PM EST (link)

But you gotta take it away from the killer…

see post below [nt]

LibRick (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 12:14PM EST (link)
 

An example of how I think it's more widespread (although with notable exceptions)

realityunwound (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 4:38PM EST (link)

Is Sarah Palin (how’s that for stiring up a storm). I contrast the way she was treated (on the right, from the left) with the way Geraldine Ferraro was treated (on the left, from the right) in 1984. Much has changed since then, but the general tone illustrates the general differences.

Now, with that said, your point is well made and I absolutely agree. You can find ignorance and obnoxity (new word) on both sides. You, sir, are a gleaming example of the good side. I liked your grading Redstate post, and I appreciate the transparency. Keep coming around, keep holding us (and eventually you, I’m sure :) ) accountable and making us better.

http://www.realityunwound.com

 
 

Canine jaws

LibRick (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 12:10PM EST (link)

in a cute fluffy package. Perhaps a metaphor for the republican resurgence. I’ll take that bone — us liberals can’t resist the cute fluffy part.

for mbecker

LibRick (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 12:15PM EST (link)

I know reply to this …yada, yada, yada

 

Cute comment :-) nt

mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, May 16th at 1:04PM EST (link)