The recent debate of what constitutes good business pratices and the obligations of an employer is a best a misunderstood thing.
Governor Perry and Newt Gingrich both referenced Governor Romney’s experience at Bain Capital. The language used was not perhaps the best, and if we are honest, it may help Democrats in the general election.
Keep in mind, as I type this, I am a hard core Perry supporter.
The problem is that there is no context to what happens in corperate America – regardless of what type of free enterprise we are discussing. I know, Ive been there personally.
Companies are free to hire and fire who they like.
Companies are for the most part free to do business where ever they like without fear of unjust government hindering.
There are reasonable but important exceptions to these points including preventing child labor, firing people due to descrimination or running a business which dumps toxins into the environment – doing harm to people and the surrounding community.
Productive workers, who put in long hours to support their family, lose their jobs due to cuts made to give the share holders of the company an extra one or two percent of profit.
Leaders doing this may pat themselves in the back and high five each other by beating the quarterly estimate, but lets not mince words, such actions are morally wrong.
This is where the disconnect happens with many people within both the Republican and conservative heirarchy and grass roots level.
To be clear, the government has no right to intercede in such affairs. No law should be made to interject society into a private industry’s internal employment concerns.
Organizational leaders would do best to abide by the motto just because you can do something doesnt mean you should.
To be fair we must note there are cases where hiring decisions bloated organizations and in order to survive cuts must be made. In those instances it is a matter of life and death of the company.
This is what Governor Romney is referencing his experience in Bain Capital.
Some times a company is taken over, trimmed down and then can move forward and grow again. Job cutting is painful but necessary.
Private industry, unlike government, cannot just make up money out of thin air to pay for its services.
Of course that brings us to what matters in the hear and now. We are currently facing is a nanny state in which the government not only tells the business, even small ones, who they can fire and fire and where they can do business. This is what we should be focusing on during this election cycle. To do other wise is fool hardy and plays into the narrative Democrats want to run on.
This is what we should be motivating us.
Victoria Coates
Daniel Horowitz
The greatest vulture capitalist is on Obama's side
bk (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 4:15PM EST (link)How many people were harmed in order that George Soros could make a few billion in Europe?
Lew, BO's new Chief of Staff, was a venture capital guy at Citi
carolina Wednesday, January 11th at 8:12PM EST (link)He did the same thing as Romney. BO won’t have room to take many pot shots.
Well stated.
cheetah2 (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 4:51PM EST (link)“To be clear, the government has no right to intercede in such affairs. No law should be made to interject society into a private industry’s internal employment concerns.
Organizational leaders would do best to abide by the motto just because you can do something doesnt mean you should.”
Exactly right. We can recognize the problems without advocating the liberal solution of government intervention.
I’m a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order, just like Mike Pence.
@cheetah222
Good Post....
texastaxpayer (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 5:10PM EST (link)Though I think that it is fair to question the character of a presidential candidate who practices a predatory business model. Lets not be fooled here. This is not a question of free markets or capitalism. This is a question of a man who was born rich and CHOSE to make more money for both himself and his accomplice’s by bankrupting companies. As I understand it Romney and crue targeted weakened companies, seized control through leverage buy outs. Borrowed money against the company to pay huge “management fees” to Bain, looted the pension funds, sold of the equipment and dumped the work force on the backs of tax payers left to pick up the tab for unemployment, food stamp and medicaid beneifits. While we have alot of premadonna’s whining about capitalism and free markets, the real question should be. Why did a man born wealthy choose to enrich himself further with this model?
“Texas will again lift it’s head and stand among the nations. It ought to do so, for no country upon the globe can compare with it in natural advantages.” Sam Houston
Obama raises more from Bain Capital than Romney
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 7:26PM EST (link)Obama raises more from Bain Capital than Romney
Romney made his fortune working for Bain capital, but only raised $34,000 in donations from 18 Bain employees. Obama, however, has already raised $76,600 from just three employees.
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
izone- Did you hear Steve Forbes
Scope (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 8:45PM EST (link)tonight on CNN opposite a Romney spokesperson? Forbes made some very good points. He agreed that Bain did some good capitalist work, but, he said that there were a handful of companies that Bain invested in that took excessive dividends and management fees, that caused those companies to go under. He said that they took capital out of the companies prematurely which caused the bankruptcy. He also pointed out another point that many have already forgotten. He pointed out that Romney not long ago came out in support of a VAT on corporations.
As some have pointed out, and rightfully so, is this the Republican candidate that we want promoting capitalism? I could care less what Rush Limbaugh has to say against those attacking Romney on his “capitalism” as capitalism in all it’s glory, and rightfully so, it isn’t always the perfect system with no flaws. Romney owns some of those major flaws that make those who support capitalism, to deserve a black eye on the system. Capitalism, and the free market, most definitely has the bad parts, and Romney has brought those bad parts to the forefront. To say the system is perfect is ludicrous, but the Romney team, and those pushing Romney as the candidate, have become delirious with their zeal to support his particular brand as though there should never be any bumps in the road, and never to question any little bad part as thought those nad parts don’t exist.
If Perry had described it the way Forbes did, this thing wouldn't be an issue
JSobieski (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 9:14PM EST (link)However, Forbes definitely disagrees on the “vulture capitalism” statement… and thta is according to Perry himself.
http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2012/01/10/perry-romney-acted-vulture-while-bain-capital
“They’re just vultures,” he added. “They’re vultures that [are] sitting out there on the tree limb waiting for the company to get sick and then they swoop in, they eat the carcass. They leave with that and they leave the skeleton.”
One of Perry’s strongest backers Steve Forbes disagrees with the Texas governor on this one, and has defended Bain as an example how free enterprise works.
Confronted with Forbes’ view, Perry fired back. “We can have our disagreements, but the fact is that Americans are sick and tired of Wall Street taking main street to the cleaners.”
Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2012/01/10/perry-romney-acted-vulture-while-bain-capital#ixzz1jCqSzwyS
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
What part of "The Bain business model is at odds with the Main Street business model" is so hard to get?
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 9:31PM EST (link)I can agree that Bain is a necessary part of the financial ecosystem – every ecosystem has a niche of “turning the dead into fertilizer”, and not all of them are ugly… perhaps “cheetah capitalism” works?
That said, the Bain model is not the Main Street start-and-grow entrepreneurial model, so .. both Perry and Forbes have a point.
If I had to guess, I’d say that more voters would relate to Perry’s analogy than to Forbes …
Mew
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Caveat Suffragator
Just because scavengers happen to be a necessary part of nature...
nathanalbright (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 9:38PM EST (link)…including business, does not mean that we have to praise what is a necessary evil. To the extent that Bain targeted vulnerable companies to suck fees out of them and then leave their carcasses to rot, and to the extent that they took TARP money for their scavenging behavior, they are morally blameworthy. Again, it’s not that complicated or hard to understand.
Amen brother
texastaxpayer (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 9:44PM EST (link)Well stated…
“Texas will again lift it’s head and stand among the nations. It ought to do so, for no country upon the globe can compare with it in natural advantages.” Sam Houston
Exactly. Scavengers are necessary, but ...
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 10:03PM EST (link)most of us wouldn’t welcome them in our homes.
I see no reason to be surprised about a negative reaction to electing one as President.
I further fail to see a problem with calling a thing what it is, as Perry and Gingrich and Forbes, each in their own way, have done.
The company whose record Romney is running on is a scavenger, and that’s a problem.
Mew
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Caveat Suffragator
Forbes doesn't agree with you as Bain being a scavenger
JSobieski (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 10:07PM EST (link)If Santorum suggested taxing scavengers differently would you agree?
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
The article you cited above, J. Sobieski ...
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 10:18PM EST (link)lacks what Forbes said, merely quoting Perry.
I sincerely doubt Forbes would argue that dismantling and “streamlining” companies in mature markets is the same as building a new company or a new market, even though both are capitalist activities.
Do let me know if you can find the Forbes quote as I’d like to see whether he’s objecting to the ecological niche or to the metaphor.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
acat - I'm very troubled by this "vulture capitalist" statement by Perry
conservativemusician Wednesday, January 11th at 10:10PM EST (link)Like Gingrich did today, I think that Perry is going to have to walk back this statement. He absolutely got roasted by Rush and Levin today and they said that his comments were socialistic. Rush added that both Perry and Gingrich are attacking the most conservative part of Romney’s record instead of focussing on the many other problems in Romney’s liberal record. I have been pretty disappointed with Rush the last few months, but on this issue, he has a good point. I also agree with Rush that this sounds like an attack that would come from Obama – not one of our guys. It’s OK to go negative on Romney, but Perry needs to do it differently and not pander. I may be wrong, but I think this was a major gaffe today that I hope will get cleared up immediately.
I still support Perry, but I’m not sure he is going to survive this one unless he clarifies his position immediately. He already has such high negatives as it is that will be very difficult to overcome, so this is an unforced error. Even Forbes disagrees with Perry, yet Perry defiantly pushed back, so it makes it even worse when his own campaign advisors are turning on him. Doesn’t look very good to me and it makes Perry look desperate.
If this is part of the suggest campaign reboot, I think Perry will need to re-reboot now.
Does it work better as "Bain performed corporate liposuction and most of the patients survived" ?
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 10:36PM EST (link)Perry, after all, is the one who called Social Security “a Ponzi scheme”. This is just Perry being Perry, eh?
The simple fact is, Bain’s role was to either “streamline” (i.e. discontinue non-profitable business activities and lay people off) companies, or to just shut them down and sell the pieces.
This is a necessary function, companies fold all the time and someone has to take care of the paperwork.
What it is not, though, is a role that Main Street can relate to. I believe Romney made an error in running so heavily on his Bain background, and that it’s fair game to ask him how he would defend it in the general election.
I place the blame for the lack of questions until this point on the media. I don’t think Perry or Gingrich asking the question is problematic.
Mew
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Caveat Suffragator
And we see where morals and public
avgjo (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 8:03PM EST (link)concerns intersect.
Sure, what Romney & Bain did is legal. But so is what Newt and Perry are doing. Further, they can use the same justification that Romney and Bain use; they are using legal means to justify their own self-interested ends. But many who think that a utilitarian (by which I mean ‘ends justify the means’) approach to economics is acceptable while the same in politics is not .
The founders knew that only a moral and just society was capable of freedom. Self-governance is the key ingredient. The moral system of the day was Judaeo-Christian. In that system, there is an obligation to help those in need and to not encourage sloth. So many Christian businessmen, such as my dad and brother, see part of their role in business as to provide jobs to the community they work in.
But see, they’re not being forced to do so. They’re doing this of their own free will, as they can. Among other things, they’re smart enough to recognize that if every business offshores its jobs in the name of profit, no one here has work and that makes for an unstable, dangerous society.
It is often argued by people (perhaps rightfully so) that morals are not part of government. HOWEVER, the consequences of moral and immoral actions in public life do involve government. If you have an environment where (a) many people don’t believe in envy being a bad thing and (b) this amoral attitude is fostered and promoted by members of the business/venture capital community, coupled with massive joblessness, you have an environment ripe for class warfare. And without the moral bulwark of accountability to God (for envy, sloth, greed, etc.), history bears out that class warfare will win.
Ceterum autem censeo, Obamaecuram esse delendam.
It’s the morality, stupid.
I happen to agree wholeheartedly with this...
nathanalbright (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 9:35PM EST (link)…but I take a moral view to politics as well as economics. We have the freedom of choice (or the doom of choice as Tolkein sould way), but we still have an obligation to do what is right internally even if we oppose external coercion to force us to a societally desirable end.
nathanalbright,
avgjo (Diary) Wednesday, January 11th at 10:33PM EST (link)please don’t misunderstand. I totally believe that politics has to have a moral element. I want to illustrate to those that seem to think no-holds-barred economics is okay but that no-holds-barred politics is not, are not being entirely consistent.
Ceterum autem censeo, Obamaecuram esse delendam.
It’s the morality, stupid.
Its the dividend recap stupid!
willspeaks (Diary) Friday, January 13th at 7:30PM EST (link)The most loathsome thing about Bain Capital’s MO is the use of the dividend recapitalization scheme. Leverage the company, then use the assets of the company to leverage more debt to pay yourselves “Dividends”, and weaken the parent company in the process. I always thought that dividends were paid out of profits, not debt.
Newt is right when he says that ” this is not traditional capitalisim as we know it in America. Our so called conservative commentators need to be careful about their Knee jerk Defense of Bain. Rush, Sean and the like are making Bain Capital the face of the free market. Be very careful!!!