As Moe posted yesterday, it appears that Mitt Romney and Ron Paul are the only two candidates who have qualified for ballot access in Virginia. The Republican Party of Virginia has announced that Rick Perry had not collected the required 10,000 signatures and as I type this, the news is breaking that Gingrich is 2000 votes short of qualifying. Via Twitter:
RPV@VA_GOP Richmond, VA After verification, RPV has determined that Newt Gingrich did not submit required 10k signatures and has not qualified for the VA primary.
The Washington Examiner ran a gleeful hit piece Friday night quoting an anonymous “source with knowledge of the Republican Party of Virginia (RPV) petition signature verification process” who said Perry was “dead on arrival” and didn’t follow the “simple” rules required in VA. The piece continues:
“The source said the Virginia debacle was an “epic failure” on Perry’s behalf, and the candidate’s failure to get on the ballot showed a total lack of organization and incompetence, which is not a trait voters should accept from a presidential candidate.”
The article also notes that the rules were sent to “all the Republican presidential campaigns” in March, but later admits that Perry’s campaign may not have received the detailed instructions because he didn’t enter the race until August.
The Richmond Times-Dispatch informs us that the Romney campaign had their petitions personally delivered by none other than Lt. Governor Bill Bolling, Romney’s VA campaign chairman. It probably didn’t hurt that someone in the Romney family has pretty much been running for president since the Johnson administration, so they’ve known and understood the rules of the game for much longer than the other candidates. Props to their campaign for playing well.
Unfortunately for Virginia voters, especially conservatives, they will only have two candidates to choose from on their primary ballot: Ron Paul and Mitt Romney. Isn’t Mark Levin a resident of Virginia? I can’t imagine how he’s going to split this baby in half. Rick Santorum, Michele Bachmann and Jon Huntsman didn’t even bother to file, presumably because the process was so burdensome that it wasn’t worth the time or investment.
Ashby Law had a blog post on Thursday warning that this would happen, saying that it is,
“…a labor-intensive task so expensive and time-consuming that at least one and possibly more campaigns will not even attempt it this year. And, the very real possibility exists that one or more candidates who made a run at it will come up short and be kept off the Virginia primary ballot as a result.”
The blog goes on to describe the process of gaining ballot access, which is likely the most burdensome in the country:
“A minimum of 10,000 petition signatures collected statewide, including at least 400 from each of its 11 congressional districts. That’s hard enough. But then there are the additional restrictions: The petition circulators must be registered or eligible to vote in Virginia. The signatures must be gathered using the State Board of Elections’ official form, a two-page document which must be reproduced as double-sided. (Single-sided stapled forms are not accepted.) Signatures must be collected on forms that are specific to each city, county and congressional district. Only “qualified” voters may sign a petition. And every single petition form must be sworn and notarized.”
The blogger claims to know top political consultants who turned town lucrative offers working on presidential campaigns because they thought the task could not be accomplished.
To make matters worse, the Republican Party of Virginia appears to have rigged the system in favor of candidates who were able to gather a comfortable excess of names on petitions. Chairman of the Republican Party of Virginia, Pat Mullins, issued the following (undated) directive:
“Any candidate who submits at least 15,000 signatures of registered voters on valid petitions
statewide and has at least 600 signatures of registered voters on valid petitions from each of the 11 Congressional Districts shall be deemed to have met the threshold for qualification and will be certified (provided, of course, that other requirements of State law have also been met)”“If any candidate submits fewer than 15,000 signatures of registered voters on valid petitions statewide or fewer than 600 signatures of registered voters on valid petitions in one or more of the 11 Congressional Districts, the Republican Party of Virginia will individually verify signatures until the 10,000 signature statewide threshold and/or 400 per Congressional district is met.”
In other words, if a candidate can gather 50% more signatures than actually required, the standard for those signatures is lower than for the signatures of candidates who gather 14,999 signatures or less. It appears that the Romney campaign, which boasted of gathering “some 16,000″ signatures was able to escape the scrutiny of having every signature individually verified. I’m assuming, since the RPV verified Ron Paul’s certification so early that he also met the higher standard. Unfortunately for Perry and Gingrich, they didn’t hit the magic number, so their signatures were held to the higher standard.
The Ashby Law blogger thinks that,
“[T]he Party’s plan to scrutinize some candidates’ signatures and not others, based upon the arbitrary standard of whether the candidates submitted a full 50% more than the statutory requirement, violates the Equal Protection Clause under Bush v. Gore. “
Moreover, he points out that the larger problem is the excessive standard in Virginia, which has turned the primary process into little more than a factory-style signature gathering machine with little actual bearing on the process of choosing a qualified president:
“Each successive petition drive has gotten harder and harder as volunteers have grown more and more tired of the arduous, tedious work it takes to gather thousands upon thousands of signatures in ever more frequent petition drives. The drives have gotten more expensive, too, as campaigns have resorted to paying volunteers to incent their efforts. What should be a test of a campaign’s organization and grassroots has become a drain on them—exhausting volunteers and siphoning away money better spent contacting voters, delivering messages, identifying supporters and driving turnout, all important objectives that petition drives have proven worthless at advancing.”
This is the takeaway, I think, from what happened yesterday. Congratulations, Virginia. You have two fantastic signature collectors on your exclusive ballot. One is a loon and the other is a candidate that 75% of Republicans don’t want. Instead of substantial conservative candidates spending time in your state, spreading the conservative message to your voters, you will have the “Great Romney-Paul Debate of 2012.” Enjoy that circus.
Moe Lane
PG DeFreese
Victoria Coates
Daniel Horowitz
Dan Spencer
Blaming Virginia is pathetic
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 8:34AM EST (link)These excuses are an embarrassment. The rules have been the same for decades and this problem never existed. Four years ago, 6 candidates made the ballot. This only shows how pathetically weak this field is. A bunch of C-Listers who, due to the weaknesses of the favorite (Romney) and the insurgent (Ron Paul) gained a status that in normal years they’d never achieve.
Santorum, Perry and Bachmann aren’t serious candidates, just jokers who are full aware they’ll bow out of the race well before Super Tuesday. I doubt they put much of an effort in collecting the signatures. Still, it’s very telling how Perry had $15 million on hand and failed to hire a few folks to collect the signatures. Expected from him though.
And is it surprising Gingrich screwed up? This is Newt we’re talking about. Always reckless, irresponsible and an organizational failure. It’s his ethos.
thirstyboots - you are too filled with hate
bzip Saturday, December 24th at 8:45AM EST (link)You can go around blaming the candidates (and they should take some of the blame) BUT who suffers? Who are the real losers?
The American people, the Va voters are the real losers. You can fill this page with all the hate directed toward any of the candidates you want – it doesn’t solve the problem and it doesn’t help the voters.
It is the voters who suffer the most and in the end the American people will suffer. So keep it up, just keep filling these pages with your hate. You, thirstyboots aren’t solving any problems but only spewing your “HATE” all over the place, just keep it up!
I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.
Follow @WilliamKronert
Hopefully Obama is the real loser
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 9:09AM EST (link)No point in losing time with “candidates” who can’t met simple law requirements to get on the primary ballot.
I won’t answer to your personal remarks. If you want to further discuss with me, drop them – otherwise this was my last reply. Debate the issue.
Obama the loser?
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 10:05AM EST (link)He sailing to re-election with nary a blip on the Radar Screen. He is looking at running against an unelectable Republican with a libertarian candidate likely to draw 8-10% of the vote, mainly from normally GOP voters. What’s not to like if you’re Obama?
The outcome has yet to be determine, heraklios
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:10AM EST (link)And we do still have an opportunity to turn the tide and influence that outcome.
The situation in VA stinks. But regardless of what the decision within that state might be, it doesn’t excuse any patriotic American from taking an attitude of self-fulfilled defeatism.
We need to fight as hard as we can against the left. No holds barred.
How do you turn the tide when the Establishment keeps you (anyone) from even being on the ballot
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 10:12AM EST (link)except their preferred candidate and a nutcase?
Stop blaming this one on the Establishment
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:17AM EST (link)The rules in VA have been in place for a while. They aren’t anything new. I checked with my brother who lives in the state. Our own people messed up on that one, heraklios
This isn’t the time to get discouraged or wallow in self-pity. We hit an obstacle. Fine. We just have to pick ourselves back up by our own boot-straps and move forward to accomplish as much as we can within the scope of the options still open to us.
heraklios- You are correct
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:47AM EST (link)I have lived in VA for almost 20 years, and I can assure you the VA establishment has it’s hands in everything, and has for a very long time. There absolutely exists here a “next in line” political philosophy. As I posted elsewhere, our current Atty. Gen. Cuccinelli announced not long ago that he will seek the Gov. position for 2013. The “next in line” Lt. Gov. Bolling (also Romney’s VA campaign chair) has all the big brass here screaming because Cuccinelli had the nerve to “break protocal.”
The problem here in VA is there has not been any new blood in the GOP for many many years. The old guard is very moderate, so it’s no surprise some of those very people very familiar with the inside are telling everyone here to stop whining because of the ballot mess. One guy even complained because some of the campaigns like Perry and Gingrich didn’t camp out here in VA, and spend money in the state, because they are currently concentrating their efforts in the early states. The nerve of them. It is sounding alot like the Iowa GOP who expects and demands that every candidate dump tons of money into their coffers. I can almost guarantee there will be some major shakeups here in VA.
The rules have been in place for decades
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 11:34AM EST (link)In fact, they became less stringent since four years ago. When six guys made the ballot.
Serious candidates never had a problem making the ballot in Virginia. Never. With this same requirement (harder actually).
And they were set by the state.
I’m sorry, but if you don’t have enough support/organization/money to meet every ballot requirement, you shouldn’t be running for president. It’s the toughest, biggest electoral contest in the history of mankind, not a playground for amateurs.
Seriously Thirsty Boots...
romansdaughter Saturday, December 24th at 9:10AM EST (link)You need to take a holiday and get some Christmas cheer. You are like Uncle Scrooge. Grief, you just roam over the threads spewing out your hateful comments. Go have a Merry Christmas!
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
Merry Christmas to you too
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 9:14AM EST (link)Defending the Virginia GOP from bizarre accusations is not hate at all. And incompetent candidates deserve the heat, regardless of who they are. Sorry if you can’t understand this – most probably only because I assigned blame to your favorite candidate, whoever that may be – but there’s nothing else to it.
And Republican primary voters have cheered it on..
elayman Saturday, December 24th at 9:29AM EST (link)Worse than C-level for their myopia in not recognizing that by elevating unelectable fringe candidates and trashing conservative stellar-quality candidates who would not have an uphill battle with Obama, like Huntsman, it diminishes the appeal of the GOP across the country. And now we are left with Romney and Paul. Who could have guessed? Let the hand wringing and moaning for a nonexistent perfect nominee commence in earnest.
So it's a good thing that 20K VA citizens
Paula (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:44AM EST (link)won’t have their candidate on the ballot? What does this prove? Aside from the fact that it shows Ron Paul can register kids at a hookah bar who want him to legalize pot and it further emphasizes the fact that Romney has not had a real job for the last four years, other than running for president, what exactly does this 10,000 signature requirement prove, in terms of ability to run an actual country?
Paula
My blog: Bold Colors
Follow me on Twitter: pbolyard
It proves a candidate has serious local support
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 2:45PM EST (link)and/or the national support/organization to wage a serious national campaign. Darwinism at its best.
Is this the first time you’ve heard of ballot access requirements?
Do you support Perry? Do you know he vetoed a law – HB 1274, curiously approved unanimously in both Houses – which repealed an old requirement in Texas that signature gatherers must read a 93 word statement to every voter they approach? Poetic justice, I guess.
In any case, I personally favor tough ballot access laws, especially for primary elections paid by the taxpayers.
Maybe we could let
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:51PM EST (link)the voters figure out just how important discipline and organization are in their choice for candidate. Nah, that’d be too democratic. Ballot access rules and other laws governing our elections are, if one views them charitably, an attempt to fix the damages of a system with unchecked universal suffrage, and if one views them unkindly, a means by which to prevent challenges to the incumbents, well-connected, and established players who get to make the rules. In either case, they expose the flaws of universal suffrage, IMO.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Too much democracy is a huge problem
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 3:12PM EST (link)However, ballot access rules are, in my opinion, in another realm. Just a procedural issue. The tax-payer is in his rights to expect the electoral process to be cost effective – especially the primary process – and the voter shouldn’t be forced to go through dozens of joke candidates to pick his favorite. Limits costs and mistakes.
Democracy should be limited but at another level. I don’t really think this is a limit to the electoral process; merely technicalities that are necessary – one can argue about the exact arrangement, the signatures, the deadlines, whatever, but in the end some set of rules will need to be in place.
An interesting argument, thirstyboots. Tell me,
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:21PM EST (link)how much does it cost to check and reject a candidate?
how much does it cost to print a ballot with 4 names instead of 2?
Who benefits from ballot access laws, the party insiders, the taxpayers, or the grass roots?
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
Four?
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 3:40PM EST (link)I don’t know in which world do you live, but in states with loose ballot restriction laws, there are a lot more candidates than that. For example, in New Hampshire there have been up to 60 candidates in a presidential primary ballot. You don’t think that’s a pain in the ass for voters and counters?
Beneficiaries from ballot access laws are the larger parties. Basically the two party system. And the taxpayers. Ballot access rules have never prevented true grassroots candidates from being on the ballot, just joke candidates. I had no idea that there were so many ballot access radicals over here.
What I think, thirstyboots, is that you're ...
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:06PM EST (link)deliberately ignoring the point.
As usual.
Yes, ballot access rules have their place, just as candidate debate access rules do.
That said, your argument is bull, and you’ve doubled down on it here.
Answer. The. Question.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
It proves there is no serious local support???
jbit Monday, January 2nd at 12:44PM EST (link)The most recent poll I could find is this:
Quinnipiac · Gingrich 30, Romney 25, Paul 9, Perry 6, Bachmann 6 … from 2 days ago.
Adding up the Gingrich and Perry supporters you get 36
Adding up the Romney and Paul supporters you get 34
Disenfranchising voters in a democracy would seem to me to be a rather undemocratic thing to do.
You make a strong argument for changing the law
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 1:16AM EST (link)But you have have to admit that your argument resembles what Democrats say when state election laws prove inconvenient.
If 10,000 signatures is a stupid requirement then election laws should be changed.
In 2000, a lot of D’s were complaining about stupid requirements in election laws.
I seem to remember similar complains in NJ when the Torch bailed out in the last minute.
We can’t be for enforcement of election laws only when it favors our side or our candidate.
Perry is my #1 choice. Newt is my #2 choice. I agree the law is stupid, since a much lower threshold can be used to keep non-serious candidates off the ballot.
The legislature of VA should fix this. Judicial roulette is not the solution.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
I agree with Newt
Change Jar Conservative (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:26PM EST (link)Any set of rules that eliminates 4 of the 6 major candidates is flawed.
The point of these types of rules is to keep the crazies off and that didn’t even work in this case.
********
Formerly know as “Oz” in these parts
Perry and Gingrich
intensity Saturday, December 24th at 6:51PM EST (link)Will be on the Virginia primary ballot. The GOP is not dumb enough not to allow the two candidates with the best chance of beating Obama to be on an important primary.
ABO’12-WIth Perry 1st pick and Gingrich 2nd
Take away the candidates Perry & Gingrich for a moment, we are tslking
sunshinek67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:05AM EST (link)about disenfranchising thousands of Virginia voters, over 20,000 collectively. Not to mention however many thousands would have voted for Bachmann Santorum & Hunstman.
Thirstyboots am I mistaken but isn’t it you that always defends Mitt Romney in these RS rooms? Makes me like Romney even less than I already did. There is a blogger Walt Gilbert, Damn Dirty RINO, that made a joke last nite on Twitter Ron Paul for President…..in Virginia, lol! If you think Virginia rules laws whatever are going to circumvent Democracy, and conservatives are going to take this lying down, think again. This isn’t over by a long shot. And it backfires on Mitt Romney as it does absolutely nothing to promote his 25% 5 year ceiling that he’s enjoyed, this only makes folks despise his candidacy even more.
Every conservative in America needs to declare all out jihad/war against Mitt Romney and the GOP Establishment from this point on
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 10:10AM EST (link)Take them out whereever and whenever we can
Comedic Side to Only Paul and Romney On Ballot
quill67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:07AM EST (link)Never mind that these types of laws are destroying our democracy, nor are an embarassment to the Republican primary process. There is a bit of humor.
People in VA can just stay home. Ron Paul will win and Romney can know that Republicans thought less of him than Ron Paul (as long as he has no chance to win nomination…if he did then yes, even I would have to vote for Mitt)
right again, quill67. VA Repub's can just stay home; exercise 10th Amend rights
circlegranch Monday, December 26th at 5:50AM EST (link)The 20-25% in their state that want Romney can go vote and the 75-80% that don’t can stay home and know that their November vote is the one that counts the most. Excellent opportunity to exercise their 10th Amendement right as a sovereign state.
Apparently, their grassroots faction of the GOP there has been asleep at the switch, otherwise this fiasco could have been detected long ago and the arguments and clarification of new or existing rules determined far enough in advance that this could have been avoided. If the GOP changed the rules in response to the legal challenge, did they so inform all candidates that had filed to run?
Yes, candidates have an obligation to know the rules and shame on any state campaign chair that dropped the ball, but the VA GOP also had an obligation to be very clear up front that some rules were going to be different in response to a pending legal case.
Let this be a lesson to other states that if you have some potential glitches in your primary process, now’s the time to come forward and get them on the table. This entire situation is increasingly suspect whether there’s good reason for that or not. Appearances matter. Perception is reality and if there ever was a year for the GOP, state by state, to have their act together and be very transparent and forthright and to make every effort to keep campaigns informed and apprised of possible pitfalls, this was it.
Seems to me this proves that Virginia will change their system
jaykali (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:19AM EST (link)Voters will be pissed. I do sympathize with this as candidates have like 50 states to worry ab right. This definitely favors organization on the ground, guess who has it and who doesn’t.
"the larger problem is the excessive standard in Virginia" indeed
lizzie Saturday, December 24th at 1:28PM EST (link)Thank you Paula, for your in depth report/analysis
Just thought I would repeat my view again by crossposting from Moe Lane’s Day Two thread:
Virginia is the new Florida
lizzie Saturday, December 24th at 1:11PM EST (link)
I have no dog in this hunt, but think any state with NO write-in option, especially when it is an open primary, needs to rethink their defiinition of “democracy”.
Since this IS Virginia, birthplace of Washington, Jefferson, and Madison, Florida now looks good in comparison.
No way would I ever give even the last four digits of my SSN to anyone collecting ballot access signatures.
I have signed ballot access petitions in New York (every candidate, including incumbents needs at least 2,000 valid signatures for the general election), and all they needed was my signature and street address that matched my voter’s registration.
Denial of write-in vote option is an embarrassment for Virginia.
Ron Paul will win Virginia, just what the GOP deserves? infiltration of the anti-war left that spent 35 years destroying the Democratic Party. Your turn, GOP!
NEWS: VA never checked signatures before 2011
lizzie Sunday, December 25th at 9:09PM EST (link)“Virginia 2011 Independent Candidate for Legislature has Big Impact on 2012 Presidential Primary ”
December 25th, 2011
“There are currently many news stories and blog discussions about the Virginia presidential primary ballot access law. Some large blogs, such as Red State, have over 300 comments about the story. Some defend the current Virginia ballot access laws on the grounds that in past presidential elections, a fairly large number of Republican presidential primary candidates managed to qualify.
But what has not been reported is that in the only other presidential primaries in which Virginia required 10,000 signatures (2000, 2004, and 2008) the signatures were not checked. Any candidate who submitted at least 10,000 raw signatures was put on the ballot. In 2000, five Republicans qualified: George Bush, John McCain, Alan Keyes, Gary Bauer, and Steve Forbes. In 2004 there was no Republican primary in Virginia. In 2008, seven Republicans qualified: John McCain, Mike Huckabee, Mitt Romney, Ron Paul, Rudy Giuliani, Fred Thompson, and Alan Keyes.
The only reason the Virginia Republican Party checked the signatures for validity for the current primary is that in October 2011, an independent candidate for the legislature, Michael Osborne, sued the Virginia Republican Party because it did not check petitions for its own members, when they submitted primary petitions. Osborne had no trouble getting the needed 125 valid signatures for his own independent candidacy, but he charged that his Republican opponent’s primary petition had never been checked, and that if it had been, that opponent would not have qualified. The lawsuit, Osborne v Boyles, cl 11-520-00, was filed in Bristol County Circuit Court. It was filed too late to be heard before the election, but is still pending. The effect of the lawsuit was to persuade the Republican Party to start checking petitions. If the Republican Party had not changed that policy, Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry would be on the 2012 ballot.
The Democratic Party of Virginia has been opposed to the strict law on primary ballot access, and has been in the habit of collecting signatures for all Democratic presidential candidates recognized by the party. In 2008, the state party collected 7,300 signatures for all its candidates, thus easing the burden on them and requiring them to collect only 4,000 to 5,000 on their own.”
http://www.ballot-access.org/2011/12/25/virginia-2011-independent-candidate-for-legislature-has-big-impact-on-2012-presidential-primary/
copying it here because the other thread now strains my buffer, but I hope others note this story which needs ECHO because most of the media is NOT looking at the VA story – only bashing Gingrich and Perry for “failing”
If this is true, and I say "if" because
lineholder (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 9:55PM EST (link)I’m not familiar with the credibility of this particular site and when I went to check the source, there weren’t any other corroborating links….
It was the in the law to check the signatures (obviously or this Independent candidate wouldn’t have had a basis for the lawsuit) but this had not been applied in a practical context until now. That’s the fault of the VA GOP, not the candidates. It also explains why (R) candidates might have thought the application of the law would be lax and they would get a “pass” on this…maybe.
So did the VA GOP inform all candidates of this change in Oct?
Ignorance of change in policy isn’t quite as bad as complete and total failure to follow through, although the outcome is likely to end up being the same in this case.
In 2008, six R candidates filed over 15k signatures, so yes they checked the signatures also then
teme Monday, December 26th at 3:09AM EST (link)Found this from 2008 from Red state archives by Erick:
“Romney, Fred, Rudy, McCain, Huckabee, and Paul all filed over 15,000 signatures each – well above the recommended minimums.”
Here is from Hotair:
“Some are asking if the requirements for petition signatures changed between 2008 and 2010. They did in 2010, but they appear to have gotten easier to collect, not more difficult. Instead of requiring a Social Security number for each signature, the law was changed from shall to may, only for the last four digits of the SSN.”
Apparently the address check was improved this year, but in previous years signatures that had no address at all were still thrown out like they were this year:
“A Gingrich campaign official, prior to the move by the RPV, said the problem is how the rules are set up, arguing that the party is, for apparently the first time, cross-checking the addresses that signature-givers provided against the electronic voter database file for accuracies. A name without a proper address match was tossed, the official said.”
lizzie..I do not understand how an Independent can file suit against an internal GOP nomination process.
snowshooze (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 4:24PM EST (link)I have to be missing something.,
At below the State level, in the Primaries… I would think any outside the party in question would be irrelevant entirely.
Or let me see… um… we could drag the Democrats into court and sue them because we didn’t care for the method they used to pick their Nominee…
Our only possible interest would be strategic and meddlesome.
This is a point I am still trying to sort out.
They can't file a suit about the nominating process, but they can file suit about a primary ballot
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 4:28PM EST (link)The VA GOP can scrap the primary and have a state convention determine the delegates. Nobody could say squat about it.
However, a ballot in a primary is subject to state law, and thus is subject to legal challenges.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Do you see this as a likely outcome?
snowshooze (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 4:42PM EST (link)I would think that the People of Virginia, given the current debacle might be quite gleeful at the prospect after having been snubbed.
Of course, we still appear to be a bunch of fools…
But Romney and Paul would probably be pretty miffed.
It would be worth it.
Do you see this as a likely outcome?
snowshooze (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 4:42PM EST (link)I would think that the People of Virginia, given the current debacle might be quite gleeful at the prospect after having been snubbed.
Of course, we still appear to be a bunch of fools…
But Romney and Paul would probably be pretty miffed.
It would be worth it.
I don't see there being much a case
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 4:46PM EST (link)The petitions for Newt and Perry don’t comply with the law.
What are they going to do? Engage in some Gore-like “lets fix things” litigation where thrown out signature is looked at to see if there was some hidden intention to express and unwritten address?
People can always sue, and sometimes lawsuits are filed for leverage.
I have no predictions how this will turn out except to say this . . . nobody ever went broke taking the long position on human stupidity.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Some observations of the "law" in Virginia re the Repub. Primary ballot
ColdWarrior (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 5:50PM EST (link)Although the Republican Party of VA has already announced that the Perry and Gingrich campaigns failed to submit 10,000 signatures of qualified voters, it seems the decision as to whether a sufficient number of qualified voter signatures were actually submitted to the VA Board of Elections is solely the province of the VA Republican Party and not the Board of Elections. Keep in mind, this is the Republican Party primary, not the Board of Elections’ primary.
Here’s what the pertinent part of the applicable statute says regarding who determines the validity of the signatures on the nomination forms:
You can read the whole thing here: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+24.2-545
The candidates turn in the petitions to the Board of Elections in sealed containers. Those sealed containers are then transmitted to the chairman of the party of the candidate. The party chairman then “shall, by the deadline set by the State Board, furnish to the State Board the names of all candidates who have satisfied the requirements of this section.” By what standard or standards? None are specified. I see nothing in the statute that says the state party chairman must provide anything other than “the names of all candidates who have satisfied the requirements of this section” and nothing that gives the Board any authority to reject those names. (I have not read the entire election code.)
So, will the VA Republican Party chairman change his mind as to which of the candidates met the 10,000 signature requirement? Can he? And are his actions beyond legal challenge by the Board of Elections under the statute?
Imagine he changes his mind and deems Perry and/or Gingrich as having satisfied the 10,000 signature requirement. Would Romney or Paul file suit to enjoin the Board from adding the names of Gingrich and Perry to the ballot? I believe the courts would dismiss any such complaints on the grounds that they present nonjusticiable political questions. Courts are loathe to entertain controversies that might prevent candidates from appearing on a ballot.
Two good overviews of the VA statutes relating to the presidential primary election process are here:
http://www.varight.com/news/dissecting-virginias-election-law/
http://www.varight.com/news/virginia-may-have-improperly-excluded-signatures-from-perry-gingrich-a-recount-may-be-needed/
It will be interesting to see what happens next, if anything.
Thank you.
ColdWarrior
In 2012, will YOU become a “voting member” of the Republican Party in your precinct?
Where it all started. Twitter @kaltkrieger
Unified Patriots.
Learn how to GOTV at The Concord Project and at Procinct and
I read those two links prior to commenting on any of this
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 5:58PM EST (link)it is however one thing to originally conclude
Scenario#1: “they submitted more than 10,000 signatures, so surely they satisfied the 10,000 requireemnts”
AND
Scenario #2: AFTER confirming that there aren’t 10,000 qualifying signagtures, stating that if someone submitted 11,000 there really must be 10,000 qualifying signatures anway
The law actually requires there to be 10,000 qualifying signatures. How comfortable are people with the process of having the GOP “make a finding” after all of this that there really were 10,000 qualifying signatures?
I find those political gymastics to be quite damaging to any level of reality and truth.
Do we want the VA GOP to make a factual finding that everyone knows is untrue?
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Do we want the VA GOP to effectively find that Ron Paul is more qualified to be president than either Rick Perry or Newt Gingrich?
David123 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 6:21PM EST (link)Doing so certainly invites the voters of Virginia to conclude that Ron Paul is more qualified to be president than Mitt Romney.
David123
Nobody wants a rigged system, JSob
Paula (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:12PM EST (link)<>
You’re absolutely correct in making this point. But I think the people of VA (and the GOP across the country, for that matter), should demand that Paul’s and Romney’s signatures are also checked (in a way that assures the integrity of the process). As Moe has suggested, Romney’s camp should have come forward to demand it. The result could disqualify one of both of the remaining candidates which could force a nominating convention, which could help the VA GOP come out of this smelling a little better.
Paula
My blog: Bold Colors
Follow me on Twitter: pbolyard
ColdWarrior, Jsob.. Thank you both.
snowshooze (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 7:47PM EST (link)And it would appear I am in pretty good company with my confusion on the matter.
My current evaluation is that the entire VA Republican party has just built the worlds largest can of worms for themselves, and the backwash of this is likely to get all over the rest of us as well.
If anyone wanted to make themselves look bad and open themselves to allegations of cronyism, bad judgement and poor form…
VA Republicans just laid out the roadmap.
NEWS: VA never checked signatures before 2011
lizzie Sunday, December 25th at 9:09PM EST (link)“Virginia 2011 Independent Candidate for Legislature has Big Impact on 2012 Presidential Primary ”
December 25th, 2011
“There are currently many news stories and blog discussions about the Virginia presidential primary ballot access law. Some large blogs, such as Red State, have over 300 comments about the story. Some defend the current Virginia ballot access laws on the grounds that in past presidential elections, a fairly large number of Republican presidential primary candidates managed to qualify.
But what has not been reported is that in the only other presidential primaries in which Virginia required 10,000 signatures (2000, 2004, and 2008) the signatures were not checked. Any candidate who submitted at least 10,000 raw signatures was put on the ballot. In 2000, five Republicans qualified: George Bush, John McCain, Alan Keyes, Gary Bauer, and Steve Forbes. In 2004 there was no Republican primary in Virginia. In 2008, seven Republicans qualified: John McCain, Mike Huckabee, Mitt Romney, Ron Paul, Rudy Giuliani, Fred Thompson, and Alan Keyes.
The only reason the Virginia Republican Party checked the signatures for validity for the current primary is that in October 2011, an independent candidate for the legislature, Michael Osborne, sued the Virginia Republican Party because it did not check petitions for its own members, when they submitted primary petitions. Osborne had no trouble getting the needed 125 valid signatures for his own independent candidacy, but he charged that his Republican opponent’s primary petition had never been checked, and that if it had been, that opponent would not have qualified. The lawsuit, Osborne v Boyles, cl 11-520-00, was filed in Bristol County Circuit Court. It was filed too late to be heard before the election, but is still pending. The effect of the lawsuit was to persuade the Republican Party to start checking petitions. If the Republican Party had not changed that policy, Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry would be on the 2012 ballot.
The Democratic Party of Virginia has been opposed to the strict law on primary ballot access, and has been in the habit of collecting signatures for all Democratic presidential candidates recognized by the party. In 2008, the state party collected 7,300 signatures for all its candidates, thus easing the burden on them and requiring them to collect only 4,000 to 5,000 on their own.”
http://www.ballot-access.org/2011/12/25/virginia-2011-independent-candidate-for-legislature-has-big-impact-on-2012-presidential-primary/
copying it here because the other thread now strains my buffer, but I hope others note this story which needs ECHO because most of the media is NOT looking at the VA story – only bashing Gingrich and Perry for “failing”
This is news - and it 'splains a lot Lucy!
carolina Sunday, December 25th at 11:22PM EST (link)VA (especially the VAGOP) needs to do something to right this wrong. I bet Romney’s signatures would not hold up either if they were electronically checked.
The more comes out...
nathanalbright (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 11:55PM EST (link)…the more corrupt and incompetent this looks…for the VA GOP.
This is news - and it 'splains a lot Lucy!
carolina Sunday, December 25th at 11:22PM EST (link)VA (especially the VAGOP) needs to do something to right this wrong. I bet Romney’s signatures would not hold up either if they were electronically checked.
Interesting discussion happening over at FreeRepublic
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 1:00AM EST (link)http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2825002/posts
This is not over, “rules are rules” folks.
So election laws should be on the books and never enforced?
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 1:19AM EST (link)A conservative approach to law and order is the following:
(1) Enforce the laws on the books
(2) Have fewer laws on the books
A liberal approach to justice and furtherance of the public good is the following:
(1) Have lots of laws on the books
(2) Selectively enforce the laws to fit your vision of justice
The bad thing here is not the event causing the actual enforcement of the law. The bad thing here is the law itself, and the fact that it was essentially unenforced (i.e. arbitrary) until now.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
I personally think this is a good law to strike from the books...
nathanalbright (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 1:42AM EST (link)…as I’m not in favor of having arbitrary laws that are only selectively enforced in ways that are highly problematical.
In 2008, six R candidates filed 15k votes, so yes they checked the signatures also then
teme Monday, December 26th at 3:07AM EST (link)Found this from 2008 from Red state archives by Erick:
“Romney, Fred, Rudy, McCain, Huckabee, and Paul all filed over 15,000 signatures each – well above the recommended minimums.”
Here is from Hotair:
“Some are asking if the requirements for petition signatures changed between 2008 and 2010. They did in 2010, but they appear to have gotten easier to collect, not more difficult. Instead of requiring a Social Security number for each signature, the law was changed from shall to may, only for the last four digits of the SSN.”
Apparently the address check was improved this year, but in previous years signatures that had no address at all were still thrown out like they were this year:
“A Gingrich campaign official, prior to the move by the RPV, said the problem is how the rules are set up, arguing that the party is, for apparently the first time, cross-checking the addresses that signature-givers provided against the electronic voter database file for accuracies. A name without a proper address match was tossed, the official said.”