
From Unlikely Voter: I’ve seen a few Republicans express serious doubts about Carly Fiorina after the latest California Senate poll from Public Policy Polling, but I think close inspection of that poll should give one pause before putting too much weight on its results.
Besides, the other new poll, from the Public Policy Institute of California, deep down is as bad for Barbara Boxer as the Republicans could ever hope for.
Public Policy Institute of California and Public Policy Polling might sound related, but they’re not, and their polls show it. Let’s look at the PPP poll first. Tossing aside the question about hairstyles, we get a key top line result of Fiorina 40, Boxer 49 (MoE 3.95). This represents a 6 point swing toward Boxer from PPP’s last poll in May. But I think the picture of the electorate it depicts is terribly unrealistic.
First there’s the issue of support for the PPACA. Previous polling by Rasmussen Reports showed a narrow split in favor of the bill, but PPP shows a wide 52-40 margin in favor. That was a key figure I saw that caused me to dig further into the PPP data.
The PPP poll is of registered voters. The firm is apparently doing nothing to weed out people who probably won’t show up, especially the Greenberg Quinlan Rosner “drop off” 2008 voters who will stay home in 2010. This is a problem because a) midterms have lower turnout than Presidential elections, and b) in a partisan wave like 2006 or the likely one in 2010, the desire to stay home will not be evenly felt by Republicans and Democrats.
This is why the PPP poll shows a split like 58% voting for Obama, 36% voting for McCain, 6% other/not voting, which almost exactly resembles the 61/37/2 split of the final 2008 Presidential election count in California. The PPP poll might be accurate if the state sent people to the homes of every 2008 voter and conducted the Senate election by hand, but that’s just not the case.
California’s next Senator will be determined by those who show up at the polls or take the time to fill out, stamp, and mail their ballots in. And I believe no serious analysis will project the 2010 electorate only to show a 2 point swing from the Democrats to the Republicans, as PPP’s poll projects. No, that swing will be higher.
That’s why I put more trust in the PPIC poll. It also shows Boxer leading, but by a 39-34 margin (MoE 2.7). This is a poll of PPIC’s model of likely voters in November. Not only is Boxer’s support remarkably weak for an incumbent, dropping below 40, let alone 50, but the 5 point edge is also a drop from before the primaries.
In May PPIC had Boxer ahead of Fiorina 48-39, so Boxer’s support has fallen badly. So has Fiorina’s but by half as much.
Any challenger would take her chances against an incumbent as weak as Barbara Boxer, I believe. Boxer leads, but Fiorina is in great position to win, especially should she make another late surge as she did in the primary.
Steve Maley
KnightsofMalta
I Am Finding PPP Polls Increasingly Problematic...
IJB Thursday, July 29th at 6:50PM EST (link)And I’m not just talking about their CA polls.
Maybe PPP’ll ‘tighten’ them up this Fall (e.g. with a ‘Likely’ voter screen) or something. But right now too many PPP polls have the kind of issues you’re talking about here – they just don’t pass the ‘smell’ test.
Dream on....
teapartypatriot Thursday, July 29th at 6:59PM EST (link)This article is about as pathetic an “analysis” as those many Red State articles claiming to show that there really, really was hope for Chuck DeVore hidden very deep in the polling data.
Hey, guys, reality is way better than fantasy.
G'bye
Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:04PM EST (link)Well, if you hate my polling posts so much, I’ll save you the trouble of reading more.
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Neil
rdelbov Thursday, July 29th at 7:17PM EST (link)I for one enjoy your polling posts–not brown nosing now.
I think your emphasis on partisan breakdowns in polls is absolute spot on. Poll after poll of voters mention how the republicans are excited and eager to vote so party ID breakdowns in polls that use 2006/2008 ratios are just not living in polling reality.
To my friends-in a John McCain sense of “my friends”-who don’t believe that I say look to primary voting in 2010. The GOP surge is real–nearly one million more GOP primary votes this year compared to a 3 million democrat edge in 2006. Nearly 50% of states to date have had GOP mid term primary turnout records.
I contend that polling models that do not take that into account will be shown to be wrong in November.
Thanks (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:23PM EST (link)RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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what is reality to you?
Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:05PM EST (link)half of California lives in a fantasy world, I think the Repub is doing pretty darn well considering the type of people she has to persuade.
Molon Labe!
This is absolutely right
JamesSmith130 Thursday, July 29th at 10:19PM EST (link)and that’s why I still consider Carly the underdog in this race. Carly is a moderate conservative trying to win in a state of liberals and lefties.
You can poo poo the analysis,...
ceili_dancer (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:08PM EST (link)But you have to see that 2008 is a much different year from 2010. You can discount this all you want and try to dissuade Republicans from going out to vote, which will be a VERY tall order. I think the media and their hacks conducting polls are just trying to fool themselves. Reading into statistics is an artform and takes a keen eye and itellect to go deeper than so and so is ahead by 9 points. What is the breakdown of the sample and how does it relate to real world scenarios.
This is where a deft hand comes in, which you my friend don’t have a clue about.
I Can't Believe You Burned an Account For This Drivel (nt)
IJB Thursday, July 29th at 7:14PM EST (link)You can never underestimate a troll. nt
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 2:59AM EST (link)You've got to give he/she a little credit, though.
Xasteius (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 8:28AM EST (link)At least they attempted to hide behind a semi-credible user name.
Don’t leave the party, hijack it back!
The only poll that counts is the one at the ballot box.
I don’t want to be Reagan. I want to be a Chance/Soros hybrid.
I'll take the opinion of the Washington Times
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 10:11AM EST (link)Washington Times over yours on Neil’s work product.
I was looking
rdelbov Thursday, July 29th at 7:00PM EST (link)for a partisan breakdown for this PPACA poll plus the % of votes for Boxer among democrats and repbublicans. I thought I saw 77% for Boxer among democrats but that could be the PPP poll.
Either way its nowhere near the 89% for Boxer among democrats in the earlier Rasmussen poll.
I like most people expect to see a real surge in GOP turnout in CA this year
If Boxer was 10 pts ahead
bk (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:04PM EST (link)do you think we’d see all the big-money liberal cash flowing there if it was more needed elsewhere?
Shh
Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:06PM EST (link)You’re spoiling the post I have in store for tomorrow or so.
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Can you spot issues and themes yet?
SteveLA (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:27PM EST (link)Neil,
Can you spot what the themes and issues are that will drive the election yet? From what I can tell this is all personality driven stuff right now, I don’t see any big issues emerging quite yet.
Your reading of tea leaves from the polls would be great.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
Well the polls don't all ask the same questions
Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:36PM EST (link)Rasmussen always asks about illegal immigration, PPIC asked about cap and tax, PPP asks about Obamacare. Hard to get trends that way.
But the left is is so desperate they’re going to try to shove this back into being about abortion. Post coming tomorrow on that.
Which I don’t buy working with unemployment at what, 12?
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Worked for them before
SteveLA (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:44PM EST (link)Neil
Going after the Republican running for state wide office over abortion stances is a trick that Democrats have been using sense Pete Wilson left office and doing so successfully. Wilson they beat over prop 187, which by the way if on the ballot in November would pass big time again, cowardly elected Republicans in California could not be reached for comment.
My take on CA is that a no holds bared fiscal conservative who campaigned on going after businesses that hired illegal aliens would win big time. eMeg started out going down that track until the hard word from Ag business and other big employers of illegal aliens in the state put the hard word on her and she suddenly dropped her plans to get tough on businesses.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
But then again you agree with them on abortion (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 8:33PM EST (link)RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
As to most
SteveLA (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 11:12PM EST (link)Neil
Outside of the 18 percent of people who want to see all abortions banned, a majority of people think incremental restrictions on abortion are something they support. Parental notification, ending late term abortions, you’ll get no argument from me and as a matter of fact you have my votes in CA for initiative that seek to make those sort of changes The absolutist SIVV voter position on abortion and support of things like a Human life amendment, you are right I don’t support. Call me RINO if you wish.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
you are not a Rino steveLA
Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 11:24PM EST (link)and I agree with your ideas on how to win in California. This is not Utah, this is California. Hell, even the latinos on CA are the most left of all latinos. Basically everyone on the left in CA is the most left you can be.
Molon Labe!
Oh but I am
SteveLA (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 11:37PM EST (link)Doc
According to “true conservatives” aka folks who’s conservatism basically begins and ends with abortion and gay marriage anyone who disagrees with their absolutist positions are RINOS.
I’ve been a Republican for, goodness over 40 years, and became one over issues of Federal over-reach on things like forced busing and racial gerrymandering of electoral districts. I still think Curtis LeMay was right during the Viet Nam war about bombing the North back to the stone age and am a fiscal tightwad and think the best answer to gang banger crime is a shoot first ask question policy. But you know, my Libertarian streak fires up pretty quick when the “true conservatives” get going on imposing their social conservative view of the world on the rest of us….aka leave me the heck alone as a consenting adult doing what I choose to do in my own home, it’s none of your darn business.
Nope, I am a RINO….well according to the “true conservatives”.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
well the "true conservatives" better wake up
Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 11:52PM EST (link)and realize they need friends or they will be just a chin wagging club on the net, out of power and unable to persuade others on the things they care about.
personally, I am anti-abortion. That is actually a pretty easy position to take. I am not making light of something so many on our side care so much about, but saying you are anti-abortion is not difficult. The hard part is explaining how you would enforce the ban in America. The hard part is explaining why you would rather lose than win with a coalition.
This reminds me a lot of Giuliani in the last campaign. He was the only Republican in the race with a proven record of having reduce abortions. yet so many voted for the Huckster, a man who never stopped a single abortion as far as I know.
Like most things in life, it is the difference between talking about things and actually doing things. Anyone with an education and some sense can say the right things to ANY crowd, the measure of a man is what he actually does.
Molon Labe!
anyone in politics with a clue
Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 11:58PM EST (link)realizes Republicans are gaining on libertarian-conservative issues, not social con issues. I have nothing against social cons if they are real conservatives first. but those that use the term conservative to advance their personal social beliefs better realize the days of Robertson and the Moral Majority are over.
I don’t want anyone to recant their personal beliefs. But the only way we make any progress is to defeat Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and Schumer. The only way we make any progress is to tear the statists out of their thrones. At that point I will join them in repealing Roe v Wade, but now is a time of unity. The ONLY way to stop the leftists that have indoctrinated our children and mind nubbed the tv gawkers is for libertarian conservatives, social conservatives, and fiscal conservatives to join together. If that does not happen, we will be in the wilderness until we lose all hubris and are forced to make it happen.
Molon Labe!
Exactly so
aesthete (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 12:25AM EST (link)My flavor of conservatism definitely trends libertarian, but at this point, we need as much consensus around curbing and eventually reversing government growth as possible. I want this conservative revolution to stick, instead of mucking in the mire looking for conservative-sounding things to spend money on.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
right aesthete
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 12:42AM EST (link)I know we all agree on many things. If we can just stop the infighting and focus on what we agree on, we can win the day. There is time to debate differences AFTER we have stopped the socialists.
Molon Labe!
It comes down to full conservatives to knock the leftist out
Richard Mullins (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 12:53AM EST (link)and simple one issue conservatives just don’t cut it. I thought I a diary on this and decried it back then(I think it ws December 2009). Anyways, no real complants from me.
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
I battled social-cons here many times
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 5:21AM EST (link)it wasn’t over their social issues, but over the con credentials. But I stopped that quite a while back, even though the battles were friendly. I don’t want to fight conservatives, I want to fight lefty statists. I want to WIN!
Molon Labe!
Don't forget your statement that you'll be 'probably' voting for Whitman, SteveLA.
Moe Lane (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 1:12AM EST (link)There was a primary. Whitman won. If you can’t abide by the results of my party’s primaries, don’t vote in my party’s primaries. And certainly don’t get in the way of the people who are still trying to win.
We clear? – You don’t have any margin to be cute about your answer, by the way.
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Probably vote comment
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 9:06AM EST (link)Moe
If eMeg goes off the deep end by the time the election rolls around on some issue I care about then the “probably” comes into play. Probably means in this case, not cast a vote int that election or rather for that candidate. I’ve lived through Moon Beam !, and am not exactly interested in Moon Beam II, I don’t even know who the third party wack jobs are.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
Not voting is the same as voting for the opponent. nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 9:36AM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
Follow @Aaron_RS
Maybe so
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 6:52PM EST (link)Maybe, but I didn’t vote for the Governator the second time he came up because he was so bad. Didn’t matter though and if the election was going to be close might have done differently. Call it a protest vote.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
Since neither the execution of marriage licenses nor abortions occur in people's homes
JSobieski (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 7:14AM EST (link)what you say is untrue. More importantly, when you slander the motivations of people on the right with the arguments of the left, your conduct is no better than when “true conservatives” who go nuts with the RINO stuff.
Everyone draws the line a little differently in terms of a government essentially coercing people to be “good” vs. protecting basic rights (such as the right to life). Its a tough line to draw, but to say that “true conservatives” do so recklessly, without putting thought into it, is slanderous.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
+5
cwilson (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 7:50AM EST (link)I am a three-legged-stool conservative. The social-con leg says, I really DON’T care what consenting adults do in their bedroom. But I don’t want them to pretend it is marriage (a civil status, recognized by statute). I believe in the right to life for everyone not convicted of a capital crime — including those inconvenient byproducts of that consenting-adult bedroom fun. And like Charlton Heston, the government can get my guns from my cold, dead hands.
None of that involves spending gobs of govt cash, other than that necessary to enforce laws (and when govt stops doing that, we don’t actually HAVE a government; we have a bicameral debating society). And it doesn’t involve the armed services, so the other two legs don’t really have much to say about it.
My question is, if a fiscon or natseccon DOESN’T care about social issues, then why are they so insistent to kick out the socons, like me, who agree with their two legs, simply because they don’t care about the third leg?
OR…is it really that they DO care, and are just on the other side? And would rather banish those who agree with them on most issues but that one, than side with me?
Who, really, is it that needs to “realize they need friends or they will be just a chin wagging club on the net”?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! –Samuel Adams
Or put more simply, I DON'T care what people do in their bedrooms
JSobieski (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 9:17AM EST (link)I consider myself to be both socially conservative, and politically libertarian. I subscribe to the moral structures of social conservatism, but I agree that it is not the job of the law to force me to do good–the job of the law is to protect liberty, which involves protecting life. Asking the government to endorse gay marriage is another thing altogether.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
The left only has race, gender, abortion, and taxes.
renny (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 8:33PM EST (link)The shot themselves in the foot, head, and genitals in the last “race” and they can’t run on raising even more taxes, so is anyone surprised abortion is the next default position?
Well if I were the libs
JamesSmith130 Thursday, July 29th at 10:22PM EST (link)I guess I would run on abortion on the coast from Santa Barbara up. It is about all what they have left.
Put Boxer in her MaDoMM box and leave her there. We have had all the damage we can stand by the boobsie Twins Boxer and Murray.NT
bobojake (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 7:48PM EST (link)I hate your polling articles!
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 9:46PM EST (link)Made you look.
Seriously, this let’s all of us poll neophytes understand what the heck is going on. By the way, Boxer is done, big time- Carly is a strong finisher.
By the way, where the heck is Josh. He made a comment about sauce on my words during the primary and I have a bone to pick with him.
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
My advice
proudgop (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 10:40PM EST (link)and its worth possibly nothing but…..
I say Carly and Angle next door in Nevada both need to get some ads out quick humanizing themselves in a light and humorous way. I like both woman but they come off a bit frosty ( jmo).
I am a little concerned to see Boxer winning Independents in CA thats shocking to me considering Republicans are winning them in every other state?
Relax, Proudgop
IJB Friday, July 30th at 1:24AM EST (link)Indies in CA skew more Left in CA than they do in the rest of country, just like everything in CA skews more Left.
Carly will be OK, as long as she stats advertising around Labor Day. If I were Fiorina, I’d spend the next month focusing on fundraising…
it's California
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 1:32AM EST (link)as I said in another recent post, all categories in CA are left of those same categories in real America. The exception is Orange county Repubs of course.
Molon Labe!
Josh got out of Dodge
Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, July 29th at 11:02PM EST (link)He’s moved to Texas.
I can’t say I blame him.
RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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Have been wondering about PPP polls
Jonbontx Thursday, July 29th at 11:56PM EST (link)lately. They had a poll a few weeks ago showing that Texas Gov. race was even at 44% for Perry and White. Didn’t look at the polls internals because I immedately laughed it off, but it sure gave the lefties here in Houston a moment of glee.
I Think We Can't Forget That PPP is a 'D' Polling Firm
IJB Friday, July 30th at 1:26AM EST (link)They may be more ethical and above-board than, say, Research2000.
But, at the end of the day, PPP is still a Dem polling firm…
IF even a poll based on 2008 turnout shows Boxer under 50% support
Adjoran (Diary) Friday, July 30th at 1:45AM EST (link)then she is in genuine trouble, period.
There’s a reason the 50% line has become something of a benchmark for incumbents over the years: most often those who can’t break over it end up losing, and most of the few who do win do so by a whisker.
The only effective plan is to demonize the opponent, as we’ve seen already in Nevada, and the attempt to make this an election about abortion in CA shows we are headed in the same direction there.