For those coming in late, let me summarize*: both Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry have been excluded from the Virginia Republican primary by the Virginia GOP. This has placed the VA GOP in an awkward situation, given that: they have excluded the current national and Virginian front-runner from their own ballot; have currently no write-in option on the ballot; do have an open primary that anyone can vote in; and generally have created an environment peculiarly suited for conspiracy theories involving Mitt Romney (and ones that won’t contain the word ‘Mormon’ anywhere in their description, by the way). The current defenses to all of this are “rules are rules” and “any campaign that couldn’t follow them are by definition poor campaigns:” I will leave it to the individual reader to decide just how either argument will play in, say, Peoria; I am frankly of the opinion that the above defenses are well-suited towards reassuring Romney and/or Paul voters – and will do very little to persuade the other 60-65% or so of likely Republican primary voters.
But since I’m telling Mitt Romney what won’t help his situation, it kind of behooves me to tell him what might.
There is one good way for the Romney campaign to get at least a little distance between themselves and the situation, and it involves the number of signatures. The VA GOP required 10K signatures (with 400 from each district); but they also declared that anyone who brought in 15K (with 600 from each district) would not need to have those signatures verified. If I was advising the Romney campaign right now, I would be telling them to publicly go to the VA GOP and make arrangements to have Romney’s votes certified anyway. This would allow them to simultaneously show evidence that the campaign had nothing to hide and to subtly reinforce the point that they got all of these signatures in the first place. Doing this will not kill the rumors, but it’ll provide a better defense than “the rules are the rules.”
That’s the best I can do for Team Romney. Whether they take that advice or not is up to them.
Moe Lane (crosspost)
*Sorry about the lack of links. It’s Christmas Eve Day, OK?
Moe Lane
PG DeFreese
Victoria Coates
Daniel Horowitz
Dan Spencer
This is pathetic
Whacker77 Saturday, December 24th at 10:50AM EST (link)I’m no fan of the group of candidates we’re fielding this year and episodes like this only confirm my unhappiness. As VA pointed out, rules are rules and everyone knew what they were. Despite swearing they were all serious candidates, only two qualified. Embarrassing.
I know everyone here has their favorite, but how can anyone claim Perry, Newt, Bachmann, or Santorum are viable general election candidates if they can’t even do the proper leg work to ensure they were on the VA primary ballot. I know the rules are very restrictive, but this is the big leagues.
Phil Klein had it right in one of his tweets this morning. I’m paraphrasing, but basically he said, “Romney is going to be the nominee because he’s the only one who showed up to the interview in a suit.”
Keep in mind that Perry didn't get in until August
Paula (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:36AM EST (link)The Romney family got in sometime during the Johnson administration and Ron Paul started running for president in the 80′s.
FYI, my diary on this topic, posted earlier has the relevant links (party rules, GOP boss directives), etc.
Paula
My blog: Bold Colors
Follow me on Twitter: pbolyard
Paula, that's all the more reason
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:42AM EST (link)for Perry’s staff to be solidly on top of these kinds of requirements. And yes, I know, it will have plenty of people ready to spit nails at me at the speed of a machine gun for saying that.
But for the time being, unless something pertaining to the decision that has been made by the state of VA changes, both Perry and Gingrich simply have to suck it up, show greater responsibility from this point forward, and give themselves the best chance they have for any and all areas where they might win.
You're missing the point
Paula (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:06PM EST (link)that this is a ridiculously burdensome requirement, clearly designed to “weed out’ campaigns. Nice of VA to impose that valuable service on the country and save the rest of us that whole boring primary thingy, right?
Note that it wasn’t until 2000 that this 10,000 signature process was used in a VA presidential primary. The first time around, two candidates almost didn’t make it onto the ballot.
Paula
My blog: Bold Colors
Follow me on Twitter: pbolyard
10th A rights...it's a double-edged sword sometimes
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:10PM EST (link)It was VA’s decision to make, Paula. All candidates have to operate within the scope of rules that exist, not the scope of rules they wish existed.
5, agreed, lineholder, Tenth Amendment is a female dog sometimes!
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:24PM EST (link)GOP convention
gogogodzilla Sunday, December 25th at 11:51PM EST (link)True, the VA GOP can make this decision.
And by the same token, the GOP national leadership can revoke their delegates at the national convention, leaving VA with no voice in choosing the GOP nomination.
Live free or die!
I agree Paula
clowngirl (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:17PM EST (link)and it’s useful to know that this has only been imposed since 2000 — it’s not like this is how it’s always been.
Having a competitive primary is the right thing to do and is better for the GOP both because voters should be able chose the candidate of their choice (and right now it is Newt, not Romney or Paul who is the front runner in the state) and because it is advantageous to have the eventual nominee (and possibly the eventual Vice Presidential candidate) spending a lot of time in Virginia (a crucial must-go-Republican swing state) prior to the General Election.
I’m hopeful that the VA GOP will be reasonable and at least allow Gingrich and Perry to run a write in campaign.
Off to my mom’s. Merry Christmas!/ Happy Holidays everyone!!
Every state should allow the 'write in ' option
circlegranch Saturday, December 24th at 12:37PM EST (link)and in the mean time, let’s hold our fire till we hear the other side of the story from these campaigns that have been eliminated.
Aside from which campaign did what, the best to solve this is to allow write-in’s. Any state the forbids that is suspect.
Agree, circleg'.
westcoastpatriette (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:45PM EST (link)This is one case where the GOP needs to use the tactics of the left who would be screaming bloody murder and challenging this decision in court based upon excessively burdensome qualifying rules that disenfranchise a huge portion of the electorate.
Who knows. It just might work.
No thanks
renl57 Saturday, December 24th at 1:18PM EST (link)I don’t ever want to use the tactics of the Left.
I don’t want to get into the same sewer that they scuttle through.
Even Democrats can be right about some things
clowngirl (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:17PM EST (link)Great point WestCoast!
This isn’t just about Rick and Newt – it’s about allowing voters to cast a ballot for the candidate of their choice.
If they want to reward Romney and Ron Paul with the advantage of being the only candidates on the ballot, fine. But who is the VA GOP to tell voters they can’t write in a candidate?
I strongly agree with you and CircleGranch.
Full disclosure: Newt is my clear first choice, Perry is second, and I really don’t like Romney. So this opinion does also fit with the interests of both candidates BUT even when it briefly looked like Newt would be on the ballot and Perry wouldn’t ( presumably setting the stage for an easy Newt win) I still thought Perry should be included – or that his supporters should at least be allowed to write him in – on principle.
State law
Adjoran (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 2:57AM EST (link)Not a party rule. No write-ins in party primaries. General elections are fine.
Well, if it's an immoral law...
clowngirl (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 8:41AM EST (link)It should be changed
Immoral?
parkfairfax Sunday, December 25th at 6:22PM EST (link)I doubt this comes anywhere near immoral. Nobody complained about this in the past because the candidates did their jobs.
This falls squarely on the shoulders of Newt (especially), Perry, et al.
well, we disagree.
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:25AM EST (link)I do think it’s immoral to use ballot access rules to disenfranchise voters.
I'll amend that
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:27AM EST (link)I think it’s immoral to use ballot access rules (and a MUCH higher than usual toss out rate) to disenfranchise a MAJORITY of voters.
I don’t think that every fringe candidate supported by 5 people needs to be on the ballot.
Kowalski But since we are talking about write ins
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:30AM EST (link)unless people are writing in a Democrat (for example) for a Republican primary or something of that sort — what is the harm of allowing write ins?
To not allow people to vote for the guy who is currently the front runner in their state do to a technicality is ridiculous.
It's Not Burdensome to Require 10k signatures
geotan Saturday, December 24th at 7:07PM EST (link)You’re missing the point Paula. I don’t recall hearing so many campaigns failing to get on the ballot in several primary campaigns going back to 88. There may be some precedents, but for Gingrich and Perry to not meet this basic and fair requirement which demonstrates the support and organization they hold, justly demonstrates their ineptitude. Romney deserves to be the nominee just based on this debacle. Own up to the fact that they screwed up!
Just because Perry, Gingrich and other Republican candidates
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 7:12PM EST (link)may not have followed through in this particular situation to the extent that they should have doesn’t mean that Romney should get an automatic pass to the nomination. Forget that. It isn’t happening.
He’s got even more work to do at this point than any of the other candidates might have to persuade the electorate that he can be anything close to trustworthy. Whether or not he will succeed in doing that remains to be seen.
But no “pass”. And none of this “inevitability” clap-trap nonsense either.
It wasn't too hard for Alan Keyes or Denis Kucinich to qualify
Adjoran (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 2:55AM EST (link)in 2000 and 2008, respectively – there were six GOP candidates on the ballot in VA in ’08, and the rules have been relaxed a bit since then.
In 2010, the previous requirement for the last 4 digits of each signer’s Social Security # was made optional (but recommended as it makes checking registration easier). A certain % of people refused to give even the last four and wouldn’t sign before, so it’s easier now.
This year, since the state election people have recommended petitioners get 15-20,000 signatures to ensure the required 10,000 are qualified for over 30 years now, the GOP decided if you submitted over 15K they would assume that 10K were valid and waive the check, which is very strict. All candidates had the chance to take advantage of this from the beginning of the signing period, July 1st; only Romney did.
So it is the state law enacted decades ago by Democrats which set the rules, the GOP only eased the requirement this year for everyone. If Newt and Perry and the others lack the leadership ability to ensure this sort of routine matter is taken care of, they just have no business running for President.
Why, I hear that’s even more complicated a job than qualifying for the Virginia ballot!
wrong point
parkfairfax Sunday, December 25th at 10:18AM EST (link)No, the actual point is that these rules have been in place for 12 years. You either feign ignorance to the rules or admit you were unable to get the required signatures. Neither is good.
For people to complain about the rules only after the fact is a very Democratic thing to do. Had Romney failed to get the signatures, many on this board would be unrelenting.
This is a microcosm of their campaigns. Romney has been planning for years, Paul has great grassroots support, Gingrich has been too lazy to run an effective campaign and Perry has not shown himself to be competent. Sorry, but this is a small part of demonstrating an ability to navigate a group of people through the oft-burdensome rules in government and society. It is a test. Either you plan accordingly and find a way to follow or you are a poor leader.
I’m no Romney supporter (not Paul, for sure), but to claim it’s a conspiracy turns the lens on those who did what was required of them. Let’s examine why two current or former frontrunners are incapable of following the rules that others who have preceded them did.
That's actually not so...
nathanalbright (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 1:36AM EST (link)The enforcement of the rules this time has been totally different–before if you had 10k signatures you were automatically in, in both 2000 and 2008. So your argument doesn’t hold water. The fact that the VA GOP had possible Romney-supporters doing the signature checking makes it even more suspicious.
Perry
greyeagle Saturday, December 24th at 9:50PM EST (link)According to I think it was rickprerryreport, the Perry Campaign turned in over 11,000 and I think it was 11, 300 or 11,600. Somehow over 1,000 signatures were not allowed. That kind of smells to me.
lol
chicagoray45 Saturday, December 24th at 12:54PM EST (link)that was good, they HAVE been running since then, that should be a warning sign in of itself. We don’t need no more Kennedy Bush like dynasty’s anymore in this nation.
I voted for Bush but WILL NOT be voting for his brother who’s probably better suited for the presidency but just won’t win for that reason alone, too many Bush haters now, and 3 from one family isn’t what our founders had in mind.
aw shucks (old southern saying)
josephine (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:07AM EST (link)Judge not, lest you be judged. per Jesus. I don’t always succeed.
Maybe everybody will stay home from the primary.
Virginia is a great commonwealth. They have fought this Obamacare thing tooth and nail. But this is a travesty. I want to see how many Newt lacked and why they were thrown out.
So now we have a wkacko caucus going on in Iowa and a primary that does not represent the top choice of the country. Where were the volunteers. I would have driven up there and helped.Did not know there was a problem brewing.
All I know is that when I see the TSA molesting USA citizens and letting obvious foreigners walk thru I am alerted that there is a new order in our country. Some police abusing women for small driving infractions all over the country. It’s all intimidation.These are the people who will control the medication and the death panels.
Last year I read 2 of Newt’s and Forster’s(sp) books on the fight for Independence. Washington was being threatened by the English supporting colonists. They were trying to replace him with another general who was soft on England. Washington stood strong and outwitted them all. England wanted to keep us and use us and reap plenty from us,however, I can not say they were equal to the evil that is entrapping us at this time. I may be wrong but I believe that there is evil going on. The word is not comfortable for some people-but I say it as I see it. Look to Europe and follow the money and you will see where we are going. It will take a man of strong and relentless spirit and energy to beat Obama and his gang of thieves. They have hate in their hearts for America. They want to bring us down and enslave us , even the poor.
I see that spirit in Gingrich. He may not be perfect, he may have made some personal and career mistakes, but i believe his heart is involved in this. It will take that to rescue our country. It will take that to lead us out of this mess. None of the other candidate can even come close to being what we need.If we let those marxists take us down because we took the easy way out, then we’re bigger fools than I thought.
We lose about 49 votes because of this debacle. We will need to pick them up somewhere else and keep Newt in the top place . Which states are the ones to concentrate on?
It is the big leagues, folks.
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 3:05PM EST (link)Getting on the ballot in all 50 states requires both money and organization. Romney and Paul have this. The others don’t. Getting that many ballot signatures requires a Herculean effort because probably only 1 person in 50, if that, will sign your petition. I know it isn’t fair, and this makes things especially hard in a multicandidate field where no one has broken out for very long, but rules are rules.
Winning a General Election requires money and organization too. I don’t think Romney has a prayer of beating Obama, but this VA debacle makes it obvious that the others don’t either. I think Republican voters need to assume that Obama will be reelected, and concentrate their own personal efforts on taking back the Senate by a large enough margin to block Obama’s court appointees.
Romney's nightmare
jlpester Sunday, December 25th at 4:16PM EST (link)Only two on the ballot, and losing to Ron Paul because all the not-Romney voters do not vote for Romney. What signal will that send?
I think a bigger signal to Romney
superpatriot Sunday, December 25th at 4:22PM EST (link)Will be when he loses every southern state, just like in 2008
Romney may be the nominee and all of the conservatives
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 10:54AM EST (link)in the party can gloat as they watch his concession speech late next year.
No gloating
wennejunk (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:36AM EST (link)Just a recognition that the establishment will have gotten their way over those ‘icky’ Conservatives – while blaming the Conservatives for the loss earned by the those with no real conviction or principles.
The nation will effectively complete its transformation onto the other side of the line between socialism vs. freedom and, while there will be temporary successes along the way, the overall battle will effectively be lost through 4 more years of Obama.
Romney, while also blaming Conservatives for his loss, will finally have his ego moment in the sun, his pride leading to our collective fall.
Deep inside, he will (hopefully) wonder if he hadn’t spent so much time poking his finger in the eyes of Conservatives if the result would have been different.
The only gloating I will experience is if he is effectively shunned for the next few decades and represents an embarrassment to the establishment GOP, much as Carter is on the left.
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ -C. S. Lewis
I wish that were true, heraklios
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:27PM EST (link)But our tears will get in the way of our gloating as we realize Obama will continue to preside over the destruction of America until 2017.
And one more thing: I gloated when we conservatives seemingly took over the House in 2010, only to discover a year later that we merely elected a whole bunch of CINOs.
If we dont want Barry O for another 4
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 5:50PM EST (link)Then it’s up to the party to nominate a conservative. For once, the Establishment needs to give ground. If they won’t then Im done caring.
The Party IS the People!
dirkbelig Sunday, December 25th at 1:20AM EST (link)I’m tired of people bleating that the “Party” needs to do something as if it’s not the PEOPLE who actually cast the votes. To pretend that the Evil Republican Establishment are jamming some candidate we don’t like down our throats without the willing participation of voters is stupid.
To quote Pogo, we have met the enemy and he is us. The Party tried to give us Charlie Crist and Bob Bennett and the People put in Marco Rubio and Mike Lee. On the other hand, the People chose Christine McDonnell and John McCain; so much for the wisdom of herds.
ALL of the candidates this time (and last time for that matter) suck hard enough to bend light. To see the self-delusion exhibited by people here and elsewhere as they embarrass themselves with their proclamations of support for these clowns. Newt Gingrich? Really? If he had a (D) after his name, y’all would be after his scalp.
If conservatives want a “true conservative” to win, they’ve got to stop being whiny babies like liberals, sitting on their butts and demanding that someone nominate a candidate that meets their wish list. If your favored candidate couldn’t match Mitt Romney’s money and Ron Paul’s legions of jackbooted crazies to gather 10,000 names in a state with 8 million people, then whose fault is that?
“This would be a great job if it weren’t for the ****ing customers.” – Randal Graves, “Clerks”
Just
Crash71234 Saturday, December 24th at 10:54AM EST (link)Just took the Newt sticker off my truck. It was covering my Cain sticker. What loser should I pick next?
Peel the Cain sticker off
Ed54 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:17AM EST (link)and you’ll probably find a Perry sticker, covering a Bachman sticker.
“If all men were just, there would be no need of valor.”
- Agesilaus
Pick Ron Paul!!!
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:22AM EST (link)That will seal the farce of the True Conservatives for good. I always thought prudence was a conservative trait, I guess I was wrong.
You might want to clarify that
papabear (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:02PM EST (link)Based on your other comments, it looks like you are not a RPBot (they have been forcing heavy use of the blam stick this week)
crash...you c..c..overed your cain sticker???
tngal (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:30AM EST (link)That’s treasonous. I still have my Fred sticker AND my Cain sticker. Never cover a fantastic candidate with a second stringer. Put the second stringer down on the bumper. Near the tires where it can get smeared with mud. But never hide your first choice.
Now, I’m hurt. sniff.
Tngal, I still have a dozen Fred stickers
GregInFla (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 9:55PM EST (link)if yours ever gets too worn. Mine finally came off in late 2009. Rubio sticker is still on and doing fine.
– A true evolutionist would let endangered species die off. Think about it.
– The sign outside the courthouse said no signs allowed. So I took it down.
– Atlas Shrugged is now on the non-fiction aisle at Amazon.
And this is the fault of the Virginia GOP how, exactly?
kinggold Saturday, December 24th at 10:54AM EST (link)As many have taken great pains to point out before, in 2008, Giuliani, McCain, Huckabee, Thompson, Romney and Paul all managed to get on the ballot in Virginia. The rules have not changed considerably since.
Has it occurred to those laying the blame at the feet of the state GOP that when the Hated Establishment accuses this or that Great Conservative Hope of running a disorganized campaign, they might actually be correct in saying so?
It isn't
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 11:12AM EST (link)The law has been in place for decades and it was never a problem for even semi-serious candidates. Even Allan Keyes made the ballot. Four years ago, six candidates made the ballot. How the heck you’re running for president and you fail at such a simple task?
Actually this is a fairly recent requirement for Presidential candidates
clowngirl (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:28PM EST (link)At least according to Paula’s comment earlier in this thread: VA only started requiring 10,000 valid, properly entered signatures from Presidential candidates back in 2000.
It made no difference in 2008
rwp4liberty Saturday, December 24th at 11:12AM EST (link)No GOP candidate was going to win in 2008, it didn’t matter who or how many was / were on the ballot. This year it matters, and the establishment GOP blue-bloods are vested in Romney and will go to any length to see him win, a guy who 70% of republicans have consistantly opposed.
At least 70% of Republicans oppose Gingrich as well.
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:20AM EST (link)And over 85% of Republicans oppose Perry.
Good logic you’ve got going there.
5 .. nt
Remington_Steele (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:46AM EST (link).
I dunno, not too long ago he was polling at almost 40% nationally
clowngirl (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:37PM EST (link)And presumably a good number of voters had Newt as a second choice as well.
He hasn’t had a persistent ceiling of around 25% like Romney has. Neither has Perry.
It does seem probable that – particularly as it seems like there were Romney people heading up the counting- signatures may have been thrown out for more frivolous reasons than usual.
We are talking about at least 3,000 of Newt’s signatures being thrown out – and an undisclosed number of Perry’s. ( and the conflicting eye witness accounts with one guy saying Perry looked like he had about as many signatures as he said and another saying he had 4-6 thousand does not inspire confidence in the integrity of the counters)
Does anybody have data on how many (gross) signatures the 2008 candidates had? Did they all really have 15,000 plus?
do you just make this up as you go along?
wbb1950 Saturday, December 24th at 9:39PM EST (link)If so then you must be related to Obama. He has got so many relatives it is hard to keep track of them.
my response was to Hanners
wbb1950 Saturday, December 24th at 9:42PM EST (link)do you just make this up? If so then you must be related to Obama. He has got so many relatives it is hard to keep track of them.
Perry
greyeagle Saturday, December 24th at 9:56PM EST (link)Please quote the journal or media outlet and link to justify the comment you just made. I have not seen any such quotes.
There it is
bdirks Saturday, December 24th at 12:39PM EST (link)This thread has officially jumped the shark
It IS, in part, the fault of the state party.
tngal (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:48AM EST (link)While Perry may not have known about the rules that were sent out a year ago, his campaign as well as every other campaign should have received helpful “tips” from the state party. Same for Newt’s.
If a candidate wants to run GOP, they should make contact with a state’s GOP headquarters early on. While, the state GOP should not show favoritism during primaries it should alert all its candidates to the quirkiness of that state. They could remind or alert candidates to an odd voting district and what it means for gop candidates, or tough qualifying rules.
The state GOP offices should know the weaknesses and strengths of the state relative to the party. And they should point these things out to all GOP candidates.
Uh, what?
kinggold Saturday, December 24th at 12:05PM EST (link)The state GOP does, in fact, “alert all candidates to the quirkiness of that state.” It’s called “publishing the rules.” Which it does. These are not secret incantations or mindless esoterica, these are public rules. If we know about them, Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry knew about them.
It’s the candidate’s responsibility to follow them, and the state party has no obligation to help particular candidates – and in fact, it has a duty not to help particular candidates in a primary, or else the exact same people would scream “favoritism.”
And yet, kinggold, who is Romney's campaign chair in VA?
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:34PM EST (link)Why, it’s none other than one of their top elected officials!
I am shocked, shocked to find gambling at this establishment!
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
I think the better question is who is Gov. Perry's and Speaker Gingrich's campaign chairs.
jimmyg Saturday, December 24th at 12:51PM EST (link)It was not as if the VA GOP kept the presidential primary requirements a secret.
http://rpv.org/node/910
If the campaigns did not understand the law they should have
googled Virginia Election Law Lawyers which show at least one page of election law lawyers.
While that's true, Jimmy, Willard's top guy...
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:09PM EST (link)gives the appearance of the fox guarding the hen house.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
uh kinggold....
tngal (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:45PM EST (link)I specified in my post that the state party should help “all candidates”, “not show favoritism” and assist “every other campaign” as well. I went out of my to assert ALL GOP candidates.
This portion of your post:
________
“…the state party has no obligation to help particular candidates – and in fact, it has a duty not to help particular candidates in a primary, or else the exact same people would scream “favoritism.”
_______
implies that I was seeking special consideration for the Newt and Perry camps. As I’ve shown, I’m not. I specified ALL gop camps, all gop campaigns, all gop candidates.
No, your post implies...
kinggold Saturday, December 24th at 1:01PM EST (link)that the Virginia GOP should help the candidates who can’t help themselves. And that’s idiotic. These people are not running to be television hosts or speechmakers. They’re running to be President, for heaven’s sake, the top managerial post in our country.
Organization is the key, and in this case Perry and Gingrich couldn’t cut it.
The trouble with that argument, kinggold, is the appearance of favourites having been played...
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:13PM EST (link)in that Romney only faces Luap Nor .. a clear cakewalk for Romney … even though Romney is currently polling well below Gingrich in Virginia.
If the State GOP did not wish to look like a bunch of insiders seeking to clear the way for their boy Willard, they could not have picked a worse approach…. and thus, providing similar help – lists of registered GOP donors in each area, for instance – to each campaign would not be .. unusual.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
Are you claiming that the VA GOP helped some candidates more than others
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 3:46PM EST (link)Do you have any proof or is that libel?
Real Americans out in the real country are sick and tired
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 3:50PM EST (link)of these type games from the GOP Establishment. As far as we are concerned, Karl Rove, Sean Hannity, Megyn Kelly, the NRO, the Wall street Journal and all the other Establishment shrills need to go back into the sewer where they belong. Conservatives need to burn down the Republican Party in 2012 and rebuild it our way. All the RINOs and Establishment people OUT!!!
You're a peculiar poster for a GOP leaning site
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 3:56PM EST (link)All you promote is that vision of a huge victory for the Democrats in 2012. That’s basically 95% of your comments.
There are a lot of Republicans as ticked off as I am with what's going on in our party
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 4:06PM EST (link)If the leadership doesn’t get their collective heads out of their collective *sses soon, then we will see results in 2012 that resemble 2006 and 2008.
first of all, mister thirstyboots,
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:32PM EST (link)this is first and foremost a conservative site. GOP leaning? Meh, I guess.
Second of all, I share the gist of heraklios’ anger. And it isn’t a betrayal of the conservative cause to point out the probable consequences of nominating a squish. It is not to root for such an outcome but to cry out like the prophets of old. That is the spirit with which I suggest you take heraklios’ comments.
There is a significant probability that the anti-Establishment rage within the conservative voting bloc will cry out to Pontius Pilate, “Give us Nor Barrabbas Luap!!!”
THEN where will be? Up a foreign policy creek without a paddle! But the rest will pretty much rock. *sigh*
Gee txref, you're new here and you've got the audacity to
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:16PM EST (link)tell us what the site is all about? And, you get it wrong.
Write this on your hand: Conservative in the Primary, Republican in the General. Got that.
You can “share your anger” all you want, and if that leads to nominating a non-Republican (Paul) or staying home (writing somebody in, etc) in the general, then you’re stupid. Stupid. S.T.U.P.I.D.
If that’s you’re plan, get a big picture of BO, ’cause he’s going to be YOUR president for four more years.
Have you stopped beating your wife, thirstyboots?
acat (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 9:53PM EST (link)(redacted)
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Caveat Suffragator
Don't want to get in the line of fire, acat, but
lineholder (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 9:57PM EST (link)thirstyboots is a female. May not have a wife.
Consider the question suitably modified, lineholder.
acat (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:06PM EST (link)The point is not whether there is impropriety, I’m not the shadow, I’ve only a vague inkling of what evil may lurk in the hearts of the VA GOP.
The point is, they’ve created quite an *appearance* of impropriety, so for thirstyboots to focus solely on whether I have knowledge of actual impropriety is to miss the point completely.
Mew
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Caveat Suffragator
Understood, acat.
lineholder (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:08PM EST (link)And now, back to your regularly scheduled course of action.
Merry Christmas, BTW
And a happy Christmas to you and yours, lineholder.
acat (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:19PM EST (link)Mew
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Caveat Suffragator
Newt's campaign staff quit last summer
renl57 Saturday, December 24th at 1:23PM EST (link)I have a feeling that Newt’s original campaign advisors would have done a better job, if they hadn’t quit.
Evidently the Newt campaign never fully recovered from that blow.
Didn't many go to Perry?
Common_Cents (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:57PM EST (link)I find it surprising that Perry is in same situation. I thought he had lots of money and ground support.
Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from,
behind, the Back Nine.Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.
Money? Maybe. Ground Support? No.
urbanelephants Saturday, December 24th at 4:09PM EST (link)He may have raised a good amount that last quarter but since the debates the new fund streams have dried up. Or at least this is what I heard from friend in Texas.
Also I’m not sure Perry ever had a network beyond Texas. Sure he has name ID. But it isn’t like Rick was making regular trips beyond Texas to build that national apparatus until he decided to jump in.
Personally I think this is a mistake a lot of this candidates made. They decide at the last minute to jump in and don’t spend years building up the network.
I agree.
1spark Saturday, December 24th at 5:14PM EST (link)This was why it’s a mistake to jump in last minute… so many hurtles to clear in so little time.
this is a obviously a problem.
cheetah2 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 8:00PM EST (link)if it leaves us with only Romney and RP to choose from. It should not take years of preparation to run for president.
I’m a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order, just like Mike Pence.
@cheetah222
I thought campaign staff
Common_Cents (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:33PM EST (link)jumped from Gingrich to Perry earlier this year.
Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from,
behind, the Back Nine.Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.
2008 was different
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 3:18PM EST (link)It takes money and organization to get that number of signatures. The candidates in 2008 (1) started earlier, (2) had more money available, (3) were high in the polls for longer stretches of time, (4) were more experienced political operators, and (5) there were less candidates. Also, keep in mind that Wall Street is a solidly Democratic constituency now, so money is much less available for any Republican who isn’t one of the club. Every candidate this cycle has been a flash in the pan for a month or less except Romney and Paul. Gingrich probably could have made the ballot if he hadn’t flopped out of the starting gate back in September. Perry probably could have made the ballot if he hadn’t done so poorly in the debates. It is kind of hard to get signatures and money when you are polling under 10% for most of the time.
The Virginia GOP
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:58AM EST (link)is going to look really foolish when an old, white, anti-semite, racist, terrorist-dictator apologist, troofer is their chosen nominee. Not-Romney is still leading there, and if RP is the only Not-Romney on the ballot, he could very well win.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
No chance of that happening
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 11:07AM EST (link)Defense pork is too important in NOVA and the South is too socially conservative for Paul.
You are wrong,
sunshinek67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:20AM EST (link)there is talk of pushing Ron Paul in Virginia just to pop Mitt Romney’s inevitable bubble. VA GOP is going to be pushed to correct this someway. They moved their primary date up one month, so they can do something now to rectify this joke they’ve made of the party.
sunshine- Unfortunately there is
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:43AM EST (link)a huge Ron Paul Campaign 4 Liberty organization here in my area of VA. They have been at it since shortly after the 08 elections, and have worked hard to recruit as many as possible. They have hit every college campus in the state, and have recruited the air headed college students promising that they will never have to worry about going to war, and that drugs will be legalized.
Northern Virginia is the most heavily populated area in the state, and most definitely swings elections. They are mostly those working in Washington in one capacity or another, and they are mostly Democrats. We know that Paul has the most support from Democrats out of all of the candidates.
As to defense pork in NOVA, that is laughable as the Democrats want to cut our defense budget to bare bones, just as Paul does. The largest military facility in VA in Norfolk, was cut back by the Obama admin. They laid off many of the workers there, transferred many to other states, and moved much of the operation there to other states. Even D Senator Jim Webb was livid over that move, and because of the massive job losses it caused the state. I believe that was a big part of the reason he decided not to seek a second term, in addition to Obama calling off the off-shore lease sales off the VA coast.
There is talk amongst who?
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 12:16PM EST (link)n/t
Admitting you don't read the whole thread, thirstyboots?
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:36PM EST (link)It’s been mentioned as one way to ensure Romney loses the nomination at least twice in these comments …
Baka.
Mew
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Caveat Suffragator
The answer is Redstaters?
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 1:29PM EST (link)Somehow I suspect it won’t make a difference.
In some states, Paul will be competitive in a head-to-head with Romney – he’ll certainly win a few of them (I suspect that every state post SuperTuesday will be a Romney vs Paul contest). But not in Virginia. Romney will win by at least 20 points.
VA is an open primary
renl57 Saturday, December 24th at 1:24PM EST (link)Ron Paul is attracting young peaceniks who see no reason to waste their votes and time on an inevitable coronation of Obama, to cross over and vote for Paul instead.
An influx of antiwar Dems for Paul could give Paul the win.
Only Romney & Paul Made the Ballot
Brookhaven (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:51AM EST (link)Everyone else was disqualified. Bachmann, Gingrich, Perry, Santorum, Huntsman–everybody.
In a two man race between Romney & Paul, I guaran-damn-tee you that there will be plenty of people voting Ron Paul as a protest vote against the GOP establishment.
Ron Paul could easily win this.
The Conservative Hand: a Manifesto to Achieve Conservative Political Goals
alt2p.org
5, Brookhaven
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:38PM EST (link)If you gave me a choice only between Romney and Paul, my choice would be very easy, and I dare anyone to accuse me of being a Paulbot.
I think Romney will want to push VA to fudge the rules just so he can eke out a plurality in VA, because I doubt Romney can overcome Not-Romney (aka Paul). Romney has a better chance of overtaking Gingrich and keeping Perry’s numbers down than of beating a sole “not-Romney” candidate, particularly in an election that does not permit write-in votes.
You'd vote for Ron Paul over Romney? Really?
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:57PM EST (link)See, I think Ron Paul is an anti-American opportunist and nothing more than that. He’s the closest to Obama of all our candidates in that respect. So I’d be hard put to act in a way that lends any credence to his campaign.
Especially not when we have states like CA and NY with large numbers of electoral votes and unstable political environments.
Lineholder
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 7:51PM EST (link)In a determination of which is the lesser of two evils in the primary, it’s not even close.
See, I follow redstate policy of supporting CONSERVATIVES in the primary. I know where Ron Paul stands on all the issues except foreign policy: solidly with conservatives. As for Mittens, I still can’t figure out where he stands because my head almost exploded trying to reconcile all of his flipflops.
So between a mostly conservative candidate and a who-knows candidate, I choose the mostly conservative candidate in the primary. Fortunately, Virginia is the only state who will be limited only to those 2 choices.
kowalski
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 7:54PM EST (link)Plus I know that if Paul manages to get to the convention with some leverage, he won’t give those precious Virginia delegates he earned as Mr. Not-Romney to Mr. Romney, but rather to somebody else, if he can’t win the nomination himself outright.
I just realized Paul may be shooting for Veep as his second choice – as a shotgun marriage to the nominee–a nominee whose last name will definitely not be “Romney.”
Fair enough, texasref
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 7:57PM EST (link)Interesting idea about Paul shooting for VP, BTW.
kowalski, and now that I have a moment
lineholder (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 12:22PM EST (link)I’ll follow through with a more thorough answer to this
It may seem that Ron Paul stands with Conservatives on fiscal issue, but Ron Paul is NOT a Conservative. He’s a Libertarian, an opportunistic one at that, who for the sake of political expediency is presenting himself as siding with Conservatives. All of them function within the scope of political expediency in one way or another (and more’s the shame on them that they do). Some more than others. That’s just very much so the status quo within the realm of politics to act this way.
But more than anything else, he’s not what this nation needs right now. And I hope people will consider that point fully before considering voting for him. His positions on matters of national security are deplorable. And his viewpoint on economic matters would wreak havoc with an already unstable economy.
OK well I wouldn't paint the picture of RP that bad
texasref (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 8:16PM EST (link)but your point is taken. I don’t have a problem with his stand on domestic issues, economic OR social.
Was Patrick Henry Anti-american too?
Charlie (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 6:21PM EST (link)Just curious! Calling Ron Paul anti-American is like saying the Pope is an atheist. Were the founding fathers, who worried about foreign entanglements, anti-American? Were the anti-federalists anti-american? You should really do some reading (other than redstate.com) once and a while.
I can’t read English.
I do, and very often, as a matter of fact
lineholder (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 6:31PM EST (link)Ron Paul’s stance on matters of national security and foreign affairs is anti-American.
Our founding fathers had no way of knowing that America would eventually become a strong-hold for freedom and liberty, not just within our nation but throughout the entire globe. And having established ourselves in that role internationally, it isn’t one we should abandon lightly either.
Over the years, the part that we play in global affairs has become as much a part of the American way as capitalism. Ron Paul’s attitude toward foreign affairs and national security is anti-American in that respect.
Flawed Logic
Charlie (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:12PM EST (link)Oh, I see, the founders had no way of knowing we’d enact all kinds of redistributive policies over the years, but those programs have become “as much a part of” america as apple pie. Congratulations, your logic is the same as Nancy Pelosi’s.
I can’t read English.
Hahaha, that's rich, Charlie
lineholder (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:19PM EST (link)No, it’s long since been the way of this nation to support individual freedom and liberty to what extent we can, and that hasn’t been limited to just the freedom and liberty of our own people. We do play a part in protecting and preserving the freedoms and liberties of people in other nations. And I don’t begrudge them that. I’ve been glad and grateful that we’re a nation of people who have historically been willing to take on those kinds of challenges.
And that is what has been part the “American way”, Charlie. It’s something Ron Paul is totally clueless about and indicates no inclination whatsoever of understanding the importance of that role. In fact, he apologies to other nations, and he’s almost as bad as Obama is about acting this way, when the simple fact of the matter is that without our assistance over the years, there are many nations that would have long since been overcome by forms of tyranny within their government and various forms of oppression.
Like I Said -- Same Logic
Charlie (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:35AM EST (link)When someone says the “fact of the matter is…”, I know it’s time to put my boots on. You think it is perfectly okay for the federal government to take my tax dollars to defend foreigners from themselves and to provide international welfare. The difference — liberals would rather dole out my tax dollars here at home. Ron Paul is opposed to both, yet you call him anti-American.
The only difference between Neocons, like yourself, and Liberals — the identity of their junkies.
We need a strong military to defend America and to keep her FREE. But, we certainly can’t afford to pay the high price of everyone else’s freedom. We’re already flat broke.
I can’t read English.
ROFL, Charlie...why didn't you just say that you're a Ron Paul supporter
lineholder (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 6:43PM EST (link)to begin with? Concerned about the blam stick? Can’t say I blame you there. But then again, you’re not nearly as obnoxious as many other Ron Paul supporters have been, so maybe you’ll be spared.
Perhaps I should be flattered that you actually thought I was a Neocon, but alas, I’m merely a Social Conservative with a genuine interest in broad spectrum influences pertaining to society as a whole.
Believe what you will, and vote for whomever you wish. I see no more reason to blindly trust Ron Paul on matters of national security and foreign policy than I do to see Mitt Romney as being trustworthy where full repeal of Obamacare is concerned.
kowlalski, and since you haven't figured it out
lineholder (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 6:45PM EST (link)what I’ve been talking about is our traditional role within international society and how the part we have played in being of assistance to other nations helped us to develop allies.
There’s more than one way to defend a nation.
Irrational Baloney
geotan Saturday, December 24th at 7:20PM EST (link)So you would risk President Paul allowing Iran a nuclear weapon, nuking Israel and starting world war III, just so you don’t have to elect President Romney; who is a proven fiscal conservative, and clearly socially conservative now, who will be much better at tackling the economic calamity we face? Hatred clearly does not see clearly.
Clearly a social conservative now, geotan??
romansdaughter Sunday, December 25th at 3:38PM EST (link)As clear as mud. Every week or so he flips so nothing is clear with him as far as I can see. Now between him and Ron Paul, toss up but if Ron Paul won in Virginia it would make my day to see that supercilious smile wiped off of Willards face. He thinks he is entitled to be President about as bad as Obama. And hey Newt and Perry are still in the race so even if they lost Virginia doesn’t mean they still couldn’t win the nomination just be a bit harder but still can do it.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
Yes Romney is Conservativer
geotan Sunday, December 25th at 4:58PM EST (link)Your hyperbole will only result in Obama getting reelected. Romney is a conservative, always was fiscally, and now socially. The disdain that a certain segment of the Republican electorate have against Romney is fascinating. Clearly his Mormon faith troubles some evangelicals and the fact that he was Governor of a liberal state is also troubling. However, I fully trust that he will govern as a conservative and we need to see the big picture of his business experience which people like you tend to minimize. Also, I detect a lot of class envy against Romney because he is rich which is something that we should leave for the Democrats to argue not this site and people who are supposedly conservative free market capitalits.
No, he is not a Conservative...and that's in his own words, not mine
lineholder (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 5:26PM EST (link)That particular element of “spin” doesn’t hold water when the candidate himself avows to be a moderate, geotan.
Try another approach.
I am sick and tired of the you don't like him because he's a mormon.
ceili_dancer (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 6:13PM EST (link)I do not have any problem with the LDS church, their policies and faith and values (except for BYU constantly beating SDSU in more meaningful games than I care to admit
). My problem with Romney is his stance on anything, scratch that his stances, his finger to the wind policy motivations and disdain for grassroots conservatives are where I have an issue. Many of his super smug supporters, in love of the smell of their own flatulence is another problem I have with Romney.
/rant
Romney's Faith
geotan Sunday, December 25th at 8:26PM EST (link)Ceili dancer may not have any problem with his faith but even if only 10% of Republican electorate does that is large number of religious bigotry and intolerance. The point still stands that a lot of the disdain for Romney stems from his faith. However, I understand the objections to his lack of principle in abortion, gay rights and other similar social issues. This is a legitimate concern. But as I said, he is now espousing conservative views and has positioned himself to be a conservative. The bottom line is like Reagan, who approved abortion as Governor of California, Romney is only reflecting the state of the liberal electorate he governed. As President he will be more naturally inclined to govern as a Conservative and based on his more natural inclination.
Dude, claiming Romney is a conseravtive is deluded.
Tbone (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 9:11PM EST (link)Is Mitt paying you to be stupid or is it just your avocation?
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
If People do not want to vote for a Mormon, that does not make them bigoted
center77 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 2:46AM EST (link)there are many reasons not to vote for Romney other than that, and I can name a bunch, and I do not blame anyone for their reasons. I go to a church that has deemed Mormonism a cult, how does that affect Romney’s vote count. I think Americans have a right to not vote for someone for whatever reason they want. It is not being a bigot if you would rather not have a Mormon over a person who shares the faith the way you see it. Would you be calling someone a bigot if they did not want to vote for a Muslim candidate over a Christian? What about the Mormons, who vote for candidates like Romney and Huntsman because they are Mormon, are they bigoted?
The idea that someone should be called bigoted if they decide that they do not share the same beliefs that Mormons share and they would rather not have them be president. That is not the same as saying Mormons have to sit at the back of the bus, or that they have to eat at Mormon places.
My Church does not teach us to hate Mormons; they just teach that Mormons have it all wrong. I would not make that the only reason I judge a candidate, but it does play a part.
Now if Romney had Rick Perry’s record and plan I would probably look hard at him anyways, but he does not. He has a liberal record and he is a complete fake, a fraud, and he has not given me one reason to believe anything he says now.
I believe that people have the right to choose whatever faith they want, but as a Christian I believe Jesus was born, grew up poor and worked hard, he healed, he taught, he saved. He was brutally murdered on the cross. He later rose and showed himself to be the real deal.
Jesus taught that his words would be the last attached to the bible; his followers taught that there would be false profits and false religions that will come along and try to distort the true message.
Am I claiming I know Islam or Mormonism is that false religion, no I am not? But as a Christian I 100% believe that Jesus is the light, the truth, and the way. So am I a bigot if I think Mormonism is false, how does that work. How can I believe, truly believe that my god is mighty to save and believe that I may not be right, that others could be right. I do not consider Mormonism to be a Christian faith, and I am worried about some of the things some of them believe. I worry that I have know idea what Romney really believes.
So how am I a bigot if I allow all these facts and part of me given me doubt. How can I be true to myself if I do not? How come you are not Mormon, do you think the way they do. If so, there is nothing wrong with that. It does not make you a bad person. It does not mean it is illegal for you to become president. But I would not blame you if you would rather have a Mormon president.
Another way to look at this is like this. Would you be ok if a Russian was about to become president,(I know they cannot do this, but just stick with me here)? If you said well I do not want that person to be president because he is a Russian, or say Iraqi. I do not think that would make you a bigot.
I do think Romney’s faith has hindered him some, I do not know how much. I know a lot of Christians that are bothered by it. I go to a church of 1200, and I asked probably a 100 people about this, and I found that 9 out of ten people said it was a factor. Some it was more than others. The same issue hurts Huntsman.
My point is that it is not being a bigot to factor a person’s faith into your vote; you have a right to do that. I think at this point, if Rick Perry was a Mormon I would vote for him, but that is assuming he would have done the same things he has. I loved when he did the rally when the liberal media attacked him for it. I love that he fought to have I.D. taught alongside evolution. I love his record as a governor. I love his plan. So if he was a Mormon, that alone
would not be enough, but it would still concern me.
My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
http://www.timothy-bladel.com/
I’m a proud supporter of Rick Perry. God Bless everyone.
“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewll adress (January 11, 1989)
Romney's Faith is an Issue as you admit.
geotan Monday, December 26th at 11:09AM EST (link)Thank you for your thoughtful words about how you feel about Mormonism. I understand your concerns because I am also a Christian and don’t agree with the sect of Mormonism. However, we are not electing the next Pope but President of the United States. According to your logic and for evangelicals to be morally consistent, you should never vote for a Catholic like Santorum because what they believe about the Eucharist or Transubstantiation is blasphemous. Not my opinion but a fact regarding doctrinal distinctions which way heavily in this discussion. Your informal survey of your church should be read by all those on this forum who deny that Mormonism is a factor animating disdain for Romney. I think it is consistent to vote for Romney as a Christian because of the separation of church and state. Religion is largely a private matter and to the degree the President is involved it is on a common shared basis.
Bah. Spagnolo's rule applies.
acat (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:27AM EST (link)The Romney camp have been busy little beavers, spreading the “Evangelicals hates us! Evangelicals hates all Mormons!” meme.
The Huntsman campaign hasn’t played this card, it’s just Romney-bots who bring it up.
The irony of it is that, by playing this victim card, Romney becomes unable to make any argument over Obama’s interesting religious history.
Good grief.
Given all the perfectly good reasons to oppose Wafflin’ Willard, strapping a dog to the roof of the car is a much better reason than what religious check-box he picks, eh?
Mew
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Caveat Suffragator
Enough of this Morman crap
heraklios Monday, December 26th at 11:41AM EST (link)If you want to defend slimy/liberal Mittens, then ok. I won’t, and I think many conservatives share my opinion. But I have also repeatedly said I would enthusiastically support Jon Huntsman, who also happens to be Morman. No one raises the Morman issue but Mittens’ supporters with the sole aim to gin up hard feelings toward conservative Evangelicals. This by itself (using Mormanism and false charges of bigotry against fellow Republicans) is enough to disqualify Mittens for me, even if he had an ounce of concervatism in him.
Get used to it, heraklios. If Romney's our candidate, then ...
acat (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:45AM EST (link)expect the Spagnolo Rule to get used every 2-3 weeks from the convention to the election. (or Huntsman or Santorum, by the way)
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
Romney's Faith is an Issue as you admit.
geotan Monday, December 26th at 11:09AM EST (link)Thank you for your thoughtful words about how you feel about Mormonism. I understand your concerns because I am also a Christian and don’t agree with the sect of Mormonism. However, we are not electing the next Pope but President of the United States. According to your logic and for evangelicals to be morally consistent, you should never vote for a Catholic like Santorum because what they believe about the Eucharist or Transubstantiation is blasphemous. Not my opinion but a fact regarding doctrinal distinctions which way heavily in this discussion. Your informal survey of your church should be read by all those on this forum who deny that Mormonism is a factor animating disdain for Romney. I think it is consistent to vote for Romney as a Christian because of the separation of church and state. Religion is largely a private matter and to the degree the President is involved it is on a common shared basis.
Geotan, Mormonism doesn't come into it.
romansdaughter Sunday, December 25th at 7:31PM EST (link)My Mom’s family is from southern Idaho and let me tell you there is lots of Mormons there and my Grandmas neighbors are Mormons and they are very conservative and they say that Mitt isn’t conservative. He is a moderate who is conveniently trying to be conservative to be President. Now if he was the only candidate left against Obama I would gag down my reflex to vomit and vote for him as I do think he would be better than Obama. But his two faceness annoys me and I do not trust him.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
It's a virus. First it was the Palin Shriners, then the Paultards
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:07PM EST (link)- the zombie Paultards, ’cause I was sure they’d been axed in ’08 – and now it’s the Mittens.
1. I’m an Evangelical who has major theological issues with Mormonism. I would vote for a conservative Mormon in a heartbeat.
2. I’m certainly not rich by Romney standards, but I did M&A for 20 years and have probably fired more people – worldwide – than Romney. I don’t have a problem with what he did at Bain and I don’t begrudge him a nickel.
That said, Romney is not and has never been a fiscal conservative. He expanded the reach of government in Massachusetts as governor, he promised to expand the reach of the federal government as a candidate for Senator and we’ve not heard a word from him about reducing the role of the federal government either in ’08 or this year. All he did as governor of MA was make the state government run a little more efficiently which did nothing but give the Democrats more money to expand their state government.
He’s NEVER governed as a conservative, and didn’t even try in MA. In addition, he did absolutely nothing to build the Republican brand in MA, there were fewer Rep state senators and reps when he left office (because he would have been crushed) than when he took office.
Bottom line, no class envy, no problem with how he ran Bain, no problem (politically) with his being a Mormon, and no problem with his mission to France. Big problem with his political history and you are absolutely deluded if you think for a second Romney is going to make even one little wave in DC as POTUS.
Romney is Conservative
geotan Monday, December 26th at 11:21AM EST (link)I understand the issue regarding Romney’s switching from pro-choice to pro-life, gay rights issues etc. etc. But you can’t be so adamant that he was not a fiscal conservative. First, he lowered taxes as Governor, balanced the budget, and introduced an individual mandate which is a conservative principle. Yes, the government can and should be involved in certain modern day programs such as health care. Not a single payer system like Canada but a system where everyone is responsible in having their own health coverage and not gaming the system. The bottom line is this. Romney is articulating a vision of two systems, one conservative limited governemnt and one liberal big government represented by Obama. You’re essentially calling him a bold faced wicked liar who has absolutely no conscience and is almost diabolical that he would so blatantly hoodwink the people. I strongly disagree with your misguided assesment of Mitt Romney’s character. Yes he engaged in Real Politik but that doesn’t make him a pathological liar. This is what I mean when I say Irrational Disdain for Romney from some on the Right.
Romney is not a conservative, geotan.
acat (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:35AM EST (link)We’ve hashed his record out quite completely – feed “ryan larsen romney site:redstate.com” into Google (or, if you’re Neil, Bing) and see what you get.
Government revenue increased under Romney. While some taxes may have gone down, a number of fees went up – and get passed along to the taxpayer/consumer – so the people of Massachusetts ended up paying the same or more.
As for the “vision thing”, I find it disturbing that you’d consider Romney – who did nothing in MA but tinker while the State burned – as a great advocate of conservatism.
If we compare government to a car, then D.C. is a 1974 Chevy Caprice… an enormous, overpowered fuel hog lacking in many of the options that we take for granted in the private sector. With Romney, we get a candidate who wants to give the old beast a tune-up. I want a candidate who will trade it in on a 2006 Camry.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
Questions geotan.
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:44AM EST (link)What taxes did Romney lower.
Romney raised alot of fees, which are a form of taxes.
How is an individual mandate a conservative idea.
And just because self proclaimed conservatives call for it doesn’t make the idea itself conservative.
As far as Romney being a liar, he has held at least two if not three sides on all positions, so it is easy to call him a liar, and at the same time say he isn’t lying.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
Tell Me Which Part Of Romney's Record Is Wrong?
geotan Monday, December 26th at 11:51AM EST (link)Can we have some facts here? User Fees are a Conservative principle. Tell me how this isn’t conservative?
“When Mitt was elected Governor of Massachusetts in 2002, the state was in severe disarray, its budget was out of balance, spending was soaring, and taxpayers were being required to pay more and more in taxes for diminishing services. The state economy was in a tailspin, with businesses cutting back on investment or even closing and unemployment ticking up. Mitt made hard decisions that brought state spending under control. He restructured and consolidated government programs, paring back where necessary and finding efficiencies throughout.
Facing a state legislature dominated by Democrats, Mitt cast more than 800 vetoes as he brought conservative principles to state government. He cut red tape for small businesses, signed into law job-creating incentives, and fought hard to bring new businesses to the state. He eliminated a $3 billion deficit without borrowing or raising taxes. By 2007, at the end of Mitt’s term, the state had accumulated a $2 billion rainy day fund in its coffers. This stringent fiscal discipline provided an essential backdrop for economic recovery. When Mitt came into office, the state was losing jobs every month. When he left office, the economy was generating new jobs by the thousands.
In 1999, the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics was on the verge of collapse. Thanks to his reputation as a superb manager, Mitt was asked to take over. The event had been bogged down in a bid-rigging scandal, sponsors were fleeing, and the budget was bleeding red ink. The attacks of September 11, 2001, just months before the start date, created a security nightmare. Some were contemplating scaling back the competition or even moving it out of the country.
”
These are great accomplishments for only 4 years in government. In fact, he was so effective in Massachuseutts that his numbers plummetted because the Liberals couldn’t stand his conservative governing style. That’s proof not speculation.
Hogwash.
mbecker908 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:54AM EST (link)Do your own research fool.
Gov Johnson of NM cast more than 800 vetoes, NOT Mitt
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 12:03PM EST (link)Mitt vetoed 800 “LINE ITEMS” with many of the line items being insignificant.
It would be more impressive to identify the most impressive 10 vetoes, but then again . .. it wouldn’t
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Like most Romney supporters, you ask questions to....
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 12:05PM EST (link)keep from answering questions.
Just answer the questions I asked.
And the Olympics mean nothing.
Even liberals are successfull at business.
George Soros is an example.
so I ask again.
What taxes did Romney lower.
How is an individual mandate a conservative idea.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
Gekster, wasted time "debating" geotan, he avoids
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 12:15PM EST (link)the tough Q’s about his guy Romney as I have learned from experience. He has to spin the issues, because his candidate is a coreless unelectable serial losing politician.
Sunshine - you're right, but .. there is one bad reason....
acat (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 12:21PM EST (link)There are far more readers of Red State than there are posters.. and letting a teme like geotan go unchallenged may give the illusion that its’ views are accepted here.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
noted sunshine, but...
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 12:29PM EST (link)If he is not challanged, then like acat said, some will think it’s true.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
acat, gekster making the point to geotan that his spin
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 1:37PM EST (link)does in fact waste time from credible posters like yourselves. But it is a necessary evil
One quibble, sunshine.
acat (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 1:50PM EST (link)This cat only credibly speaks for himself.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
haha point well taken cat,
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 2:27PM EST (link)My original intent was a thinly veiled swipe at geo’s spin from an earlier nondebate-debate that he wanted to dribble the ball the entire time. Just wanted to call him out again lol~
I'll make one specific note geotan.
mbecker908 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 12:13PM EST (link)You seem to be really excited about Mitt’s rainy day fund. How’s that doing right now? I’m pretty sure the Dems spent it an a whole lot more since Mitt left office.
The bottom line, in government, a “rainy day fund” is nothing more than mental masturbation on the idea of fiscal discipline. It gives the spenders (Mitt) the opportunity to keep and/or grow government in hard times as well as good.
In government, the ONLY fiscal discipline that matters is eliminating things the government is involved in. At the federal level that would include – but not be limited to – health care, retirement, education, agriculture and energy. Tell me please, which of these Mitt will stop the federal involvement.
geotan, you're a pathetic fool...
mbecker908 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:51AM EST (link)and quite obviously incapable of rational thought. And, as with Romney, you’re no conservative either.
Please provide a link to the Constitution where it gives the federal government the right to be involved in health care.
I never said he was a “pathological liar”. I said he wasn’t a conservative and had never governed as a conservative in any way shape or form, and my assessment of Romney lines up exactly with his description of himself. The only one who is irrational in this thread is YOU.
You people are tiring. And, quite obviously a product of another system that the federal government has no business being part of, education.
Can No Man Fool
geotan Monday, December 26th at 2:12PM EST (link)Didn’t you represent yourself as an Evangelical? The bible says to call no man a fool. While you resort to juvenille name calling I’ll stick with the maturity of speaking on facts. The constitution doesn’t speak about social security or Medicare either but are you the smart one who is going to run against Obama proposing to get rid of those programs? Romney’s more realistic proposal to fix them is a lot smarter. You are missing the point about being a “pathological liar”. Listen to Romney’s speeches just yesterday and many other times about his vision of the country vs. Obama’s. If you deny that he would keep his word regarding his vision then yes, you are essentially calling Romney a pathological liar. I find that very childish to say. Criticize him for being a flip flopper. That’s fine. But to accuse him of such utter lack of values is stretching things beyond hyperbole and truth.
Here is Romney trying to appeal to Conservatives.
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 5:16PM EST (link)“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
Somehow Mitt appears so phony.
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 5:19PM EST (link)I mean this is a guy who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and really doesn’t have much of a clue about the middle class at all. Not impressed with the ad.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
Class warfare is Democratic
geotan Monday, December 26th at 8:53PM EST (link)Can we stop already with the class warfare speech and leave that to Obama. I mean Newt is not exactly poor and neither is Perry for that matter. They are way above the average Texan’s annual income. The point is let’s celebrate their success if it was earned in private enterprise. Oh wait a minute. Perry and Gingrich got their wealth from the public trought whereas Romney got his money the good old fashioned American free capitalist way, he earned it in the private sector. Yes, I think I’ll trust the hardworking businessman who knows how to run the economy than the government beaureaucrats who pretend to understand the economy.
Smells
greyeagle Saturday, December 24th at 10:06PM EST (link)That is why I said the situation smells. This looks very bad for the GOP in VA. How interesting it would be if Ron Paul beats Romney. I would not vote for either of these two if I lived in VA. I would stay home.
Again to good sir Thirstyboots with respect
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:35PM EST (link)Whenever I read the words “no chance of that happening” I invariably detect a note of “I sure HOPE to GOD it doesn’t happen” and not a whole lot of “no chance.”
When I read the words “very unlikely,” that’s when I detect a whole lot of true “no chance.”
Words betray.
Paranoid school of hermeneutics
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 6:56PM EST (link)We’ll see who’s right soon enough. I’d say that Paul’s chances of winning the VA are similar to Obama’s chances of winning Kansas in the general.
kowalski.
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 6:59PM EST (link)And btw, I’m a girl.
thanks for the clarification, maam
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 7:56PM EST (link)(-:
People could vote strategically
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 3:21PM EST (link)With only Romney and Paul on the ballot, voters could go for Paul to stop Romney and force a brokered convention.
What are the rules or what would the message be
ceili_dancer (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 6:20PM EST (link)If the choice is left blank. You can compare the total votes cast versus the number cast for RP and Romney. My guess is there is more than just the presidential primary on the ballot, so it would not be hard to compare. One of the two is going to win, but a message could be sent to the establishment that we won’t play their game and then maybe we can have at-large delegates for VA if the difference is so large they can’t ignore it.
Thoughts?…
I've read the idea of that protest vote idea
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 7:36PM EST (link)to go into the voting booth, vote for other republicans that may be on the ballot, but don’t vote for Romney or Paul. The R vote is registered, but with the presidential candidate race, you are considered an undervote. It still helps identify the R vote for 2012 purposes, but neither of the bad choices are winners.
Romney campaign apparenverified a third of the signatures turned in before turning them in, so...
teme Saturday, December 24th at 11:01AM EST (link)“A source familiar with Romney’s campaign said they assessed approximately a third of their 16,026 VIrginia signatures and found something short of 90 percent verification against the registered voter rolls.”
So of those they didn’t bother to verify before turning them in, over half would have to be discarded for Romney to be out of VA ballot. So I guess he would be fine with checking them.
Thanks, Teme.
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:47PM EST (link)Good info.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Real credible there
gogogodzilla Sunday, December 25th at 11:59PM EST (link)Geez, talk about a credible source for this. Just how many of the names would a campaign *ACTUALLY* say are invalid if they where the one that collected it.
That’s exactly like expecting ACORN to verify signatures for Obama in 2008.
Live free or die!
Well, Gingrich signature verification rate was apparently over 70% despite of being hurried and last minute push
teme Monday, December 26th at 3:16AM EST (link)So we can be pretty sure that Romney’s verification rate was better, since they collected many of their signatures at the 2011 primary and election places, where everybody is a registered voter unlike at malls.
Teme, you actually trust Romney?
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 6:46AM EST (link)I wouldn’t trust him as far I could throw him…which isn’t very far.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
It isn't question of trust, but rather of incompetence and stupidity.
teme Monday, December 26th at 7:59AM EST (link)No. I don’t think that he is stupid or incompetent, he has a history of over performing in work and studies, being punctual, he is well funded, also personally rich, getting 16k signatures in a state where he polls at 25% isn’t that hard.
By the way getting 15k isn’t that hard
Found this from 2008 from Red state archives by Erick:
“Romney, Fred, Rudy, McCain, Huckabee, and Paul all filed over 15,000 signatures each – well above the recommended minimums.”
Yes, and Teme and running for President for
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 8:12AM EST (link)6 years or more. I am sure that the other candidates if they had been running for President for years would be competent too and Teme I know you think Romney is wonderful and of sterling quality and that is fine that is your opinion. But some of the rest of us don’t see it that way.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
In 2008, 6 Republican candidates of whom 4 were first timers, got more than 15k signatures
teme Monday, December 26th at 8:29AM EST (link)Anyway you were not allowed to collect the signatures before July 1st so it’s not like he had 6 years to collect them..
Today Virginia debacle tomorrow repeat Operation Eagle Claw
tailfins1959 Monday, December 26th at 8:56AM EST (link)Once the investigations are complete, the details should be aired. If not making the published requirements was indeed the result, we have discovered a potential President capable of repeating Operation Eagle Claw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw
You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf
Two questions, re Virginia.
gekster (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:01AM EST (link)Is Virginia a winner take all state.
Was Perry expecting a win.
Answer those two questions and a couple of things may clear themselves up.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
Proprortional state and Gingrich is leading polls
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 11:05AM EST (link).
Perry was polling at 5%
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 11:08AM EST (link)3 delegates for each congressional district won.
Virginia has 13 delegates.
gekster (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:16AM EST (link)How many was Perry expected to get.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
gekster- VA has 49 delegates
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:20AM EST (link)and because of the new proportional allocation they will be split between Romney and Paul.
I looked it up Scope.
gekster (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:23AM EST (link)Must have gotten the wrong page.
The one I looked at showed 13.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
Virginia has 13 electoral votes. n/t
barleycorn (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:27AM EST (link)n/t
Some more confusion, just for the heck of it.
gekster (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:35AM EST (link)Virginia Primary Rules?
Some of this doesn’t make sense to me, and I didn’t see the qualifying rules.
I will blame my missteps up till now on a lack of coffee.
I am trying to rectify that now.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
Read this, instead:
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 11:40AM EST (link)http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+24.2-545
gekster- Here is the link
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:49AM EST (link)that shows how many delegates each state will get in 2012
It's more complicated than that...
rightwingnut2 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:38PM EST (link)It’s possible to ensure that Romney gets ZERO delegates out of Virginia.
Here’s a good summary..
http://bearingdrift.com/2011/12/19/republicans-to-begin-validating-petitions-dec-23/
In short, all at large delegates go to a candidate who gets at least 50% of the vote. Since their are only two candidates, one of them will walk away with all of them.. In addition, each congressional delegation awards 3 delegates to the convention.
Operation Chaos, anyone?
Um, when Paul wins VA, do you think it will be spun
trickamsterdam Saturday, December 24th at 1:47PM EST (link)by the MSM as a protest against Romney the Moderate? Or as a statement, by what was formally the most important state in the Confederacy, against a Mormon, and as an ENDORSEMENT of a politician whose newsletters said black muggers were “fleet of foot”?
Be careful of “Chaos”. It has a way of getting chaotic.
PS – I think one of the ways delegates are chosen is for their reliability. In other words, they are likely not going to switch their allegiance from Paul, once he has them.. And watch him use them to create your “chaos”.
Live by the sensitivities of liberals, die by their sensitivities.
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 2:51PM EST (link)Or, you can be more of a man than Paul and reject their perverted definition of “racist”, which is “anyone who says anything they wouldn’t say”.
Sure, a liberal (who won’t hesitate to slander as racist all cops, juries, judges, lawmakers, society at large, they being more responsible than the muggers for the racial statistics of that crime) would _never_ casually refer to a “black mugger”. They’d say “mugger”. Every time. Liberal rule. And what are we, again?
(I don’t even know how to respond to your shocked gasps over “blacks can run fast”. Heard of a running back? Heard of the summer Olympics? If you haven’t, any liberal will quite cheerfully get you up to speed on the subject of black representation in these fields. Try asking about jumping and ‘hang time’, next. Seriously, is George Orwell writing this script, or is it Franz Kafka?)
You completely missed my point, ayrnieu.
trickamsterdam Saturday, December 24th at 3:56PM EST (link)The guy wanted to start “Operation Chaos”, the original of which was designed to hurt Democrats. He apparently thinks this would hurt Romney or help Newt or Perry. He’s wrong, for the reasons I pointed out.
It will only help Obama.
You are probably a Ron Paul supporter, who thinks it would help Ron Paul. If you mean help him be the nominee, you’re wrong too. If you mean help him claim those people were voting FOR him,, as opposed to voting against Romney, then yes.
Anyone who thinks muggings are seriously about the speed the mugger can run, is a complete moron. Anyone who would say it as a joke, and then run for president, is a complete moron. Anyone who would defend it….I’ll be polite, as the rules require.
True, was responding to your post in isolation.
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 4:50PM EST (link)If Paul will fail anyway, the proposal would certainly hurt Romney and help Newt and Perry: Romney would have less of a lead in delegates – would have them with no regard whatsoever for media spin.
You may think that the media spin would outweigh – in the general election – the value of more probably having Newt and Perry in the general than Romney. Eh, if you’re this worried about the Obama’s propaganda arm – that is to say, the media – then… you have so much to worry about, I can’t see why you’d put any special emphasis on some backlash from Paul winning VA. But, sure, OK.
Re. muggings: … what? You didn’t learn of that excerpt from “Loony Paul thinks that exercise increases crime! What a joke!”; you read it from “Racist Paul is a racist – look at all this racist stuff!”. If you nod and agree that it is, you surrender to liberal sensitivities, and in the future when you’re called a racist, you’ll be shrinking and defending yourself of the heinous charge of _not being a liberal_ — just, with this Orwellian new name. Good luck isolating a surrender that enormous to just when it’s convenient for you: when it’s inconvenient, you’ll be fighting your own condemnations – and everyone you freshly persuaded with your condemnations.
ayrnieu, the fact that you admit you responded to
trickamsterdam Saturday, December 24th at 7:32PM EST (link)my post “in isolation”, means you either can’t read or are just trolling when a post has the name “Paul” in the comment title.
No, it won’t help Newt…and I’m a Newt guy. They need to win delegates, not have “I-don’t-see-any-difference-between-Newt-or-Obama”
Ron Paul have them.. Lord only knows what he’d do w/ them….probably eat them if he could…or crap them out ( like a bird).
It’s becoming increasingly obvious to me that Romney is going to be the nominee…VA just gives Paul more power, because Romney will win anyway. And Paul will not. It’s math, dude. Just like the crime/athlete statistics.
Obama will have a billion dollars, and 75% of the press on his side…you don’t think it’s dangerous to have Rep Ron Paul, Republican (Chairman of a sub-committee) trade the delegates for a CRAZY, prime-time speech at the Republican convention?
As I surmised, you are in the tank for Rep Paul. Hate to break the news to you, but when more people hear similar things to what I’ve just said, this will be the final result in VA:
Romney – 67%
Paul – 33%
Eat that, dude. And Merry Christmas.
PS – I’ve had “mucho” eggnog w/ Bulleit rye whiskey (90 proof) as the hammer. Not bad!
Eggnot will do that :-/
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 9:25PM EST (link)That is, cause you throw someone’s polite remark back in their face, focus your reply on your own imaginary version of what someone said, etc.
So, again: If Paul can’t win, then any reduction to the number of Romney’s delegates is a boon to Romney’s other opponents. This is just math. You keep bringing up new objections to math. Could you at least concede that this is math?
Of a CRAZY speech: a more pressing threat is “don’t vote for this guy. He’s the same as Obama.” That Paul’s not going to stay in Congress means that his bridges are rather more easily burnt, no? Of delegates giving him that speech: well, you’ve already predicted that he get a third of VA’s delegates. He’s going to get more.
Of Obama’s advantages and your provided threats and any new crazy threats you come up with: my sincere expectation is that any imaginable height of media faux-pas will be another drop in the ocean. The media aren’t piranhas: they don’t need meat. They’re not beasts: music won’t calm them. They are not a jury: no evidence presented to them or hidden from them will affect their decision. They’re shameless spinners and inexhaustible villains. A Republican victory must be predicated on winning without their support, and all this theatrical talk about media images and potential media reactions is just so much wasted energy. The media can’t be swayed; they must be defeated, circumvented.
That said, I’m paid zero big bucks for this campaign advice.
Since you’re so interested in who I support: look, at this point, I don’t care who wins. Coulter vouches for Romney, and I read all of her books in the last two weeks, after ignoring her for years – I think she’s just brilliant. So I’ll accept Romney. Red State has adequately defended Perry and Newt for me – and Newt, the “good Newt” shown here, is _good_.. I wish they were on the ballot in VA. Paul got me interested in politics in the first place – but he’s banned here, no point in discussing him. I wouldn’t mind if Bachmann or Santorum kept going.
I will campaign for, contribute to, and vote for whoever wins.
I wish I could be as confident in many of the commenters here. Petty concerns seem to fog the view of the stakes.
ayrnieu, maybe I was rude: but you should understand
trickamsterdam Saturday, December 24th at 11:02PM EST (link)this about math…in the scenario I laid out, Paul got 0% of the delegates…not “a third or more”. Over 50% to a victor, and it’s winner take all. It’s a weakness if people are rude, but sometimes it’s because they know things others don’t.
I’ve always liked Ann Coulter too, and it turns out, unfortunately, she was probably right about Newt. He seems very disorganized to me. Until I learn something different, I don’t trust him.. So I was ticked off at her for going after him so hard, but she was probably right.
I think Paul is probably an honorable man, and I’m defining “honor” as “telling the truth as you see it, not matter what the cost”.
It’s hard to say that Paul doesn’t do that, because otherwise why would he endorse such politically suicidal positions?
But he makes the error of most libertarians: he views politics as a religion, not as a necessary process for survival (i.e., if a Muslim can’t eat pork, that’s just the rule…if a non-interventionist doesn’t realize letting Iran have nuclear weapons is an exception, then he’s a fool).
Media does matter. Yes, they have to be circumvented or defeated, but part of that means not handing them a victory like Paul winning VA, when it won’t change what is now becoming clearer and clearer: Romney will be the nominee. It just makes their job easier when they already have enormous advantages.
And Newt is nothing like Obama. They both make their living through talking and writing, but that’s it.
Now I’ll wish you, w/out sarcasm ,a Merry Christmas. I’m signing off. Take care. Yes, the eggnog was good.
Thanks, and Merry Christmas (n/t)
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 11:14PM EST (link)nt
"it will only help Obama"
texasref (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 8:29PM EST (link)No, this is what the primary process is. We get to choose the most conservative candidate among or between those who had the basic competence to submit a sufficient number of nominating signatures. I have decided that Paul is more conservative than Romney, so if I were living in Virginia, I would choose Paul.
All eyes on Iowa.
The 'Ron's Newsletter' issue has nothing to do with lib sensibilities....
Dave_A (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 3:11AM EST (link)Everyone focuses on the ‘black teenager’ comment…
Of course, there’s plenty worse in those letters….
Such as Ron bashing Desert Storm veterans & calling them war criminals in the same set of newsletters…
Or Ron advocating that people prepare for ‘the coming race war’…
There was also the time he blamed Israel for the 1993 WTC bombing….
And so on…
This isn’t a one-incident thing like ‘Macacca’, or a made-from-nothing story like Rick Perry’s rock…
This is a consistent and continuous pattern of behavior.
Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page
Two possible results:
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 11:06AM EST (link)1. Romney does this, still has 10k signatures: the people who don’t like him decide to interpret his ‘good will’ gesture as actually a _bad will_ gesture towards the candidates not on the ballot. Perhaps it will very tempting for him or his campaign to ensure that it’s received as such a gesture, with talk like “if my opponents can’t even manage a campaign…”
2. Romney does this, achieves the not-impossible task of failing to have 10k valid signatures: the people who don’t like him interpret this ‘good will’ gesture as an act of monumental stupidity that makes him non-credible as a candidate, and Paul runs unopposed (which will not even be a favor to Paul.)
Wouldn’t silence be preferable? Or some promise from him to the effect that he wouldn’t raise any challenges were RPV able to correct this situation with some discovered loophole?
Agreed!
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:53PM EST (link)If Romney asks that his signatures be verified, he should pay the costs and make darn sure he has enough signatures qualify, with plenty to spare.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Clearing the path for Romney
rwp4liberty Saturday, December 24th at 11:07AM EST (link)The corrupt Virginia establishment GOP (moderate-country-club-blue-bloods) are clearing the path for Romney. They’ve deemed that Gingrich, Perry, Santorum, Bachman, and Huntsman all failed to get enough signatures to be on the primary ballot. Now we have a no-contest between Romney and Paul. What is the difference between the liberal democrats and the moderate republicans? Reminds me of Obama’s winning of his Illinois senate seat by disqualifying the competition!
rwp4liberty, sounds almost socialist in nature, doesn't it?
circlegranch Saturday, December 24th at 4:08PM EST (link)and at the least, win at any cost. Daily Caller and NewsMax both carried stories today about the contributions Romney started making in ’05 to Nationa Review, The Heritage Foundations, etc.
If the fix isn’t in as yet, it certainly is close. Did they think we wouldn’t notice?
I don't see what this has to do with corruption?
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 3:30PM EST (link)The rules have been in place since 2000. Other candidates have managed to qualify in past cycles. The other 2012 candidates simply were not popular enough for long enough to raise money and build an organization that is up to the task of getting those petitions. It is probably down to the fact that there are too many candidates and the overall candidate quality is poor this cycle.
if they were clearing the path for Romney
texasref (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 8:33PM EST (link)they’re doing a helluva bad job of it. All they’re doing is consolidating the anti-Romney vote in one candidate.
Besides, the rules apply to everyone. This was no back-room deal. The other candidates simply did not follow the law. No excuses. And no judge is going to save anybody.
Interesting read from Ashby Law
TSquared Saturday, December 24th at 11:09AM EST (link)Seems they saw this coming…
http://www.ashby-law.com/better-things-to-do/
BETTER THINGS TO DO
Why It’s Time to Change Virginia’s Unreasonable Ballot Access Law
*snip*
Virginia’s statutory ballot access requirement is, quite simply, one of if not the most daunting in the country: A minimum of 10,000 petition signatures collected statewide, including at least 400 from each of its 11 congressional districts. That’s hard enough. But then there are the additional restrictions: The petition circulators must be registered or eligible to vote in Virginia. The signatures must be gathered using the State Board of Elections’ official form, a two-page document which must be reproduced as double-sided. (Single-sided stapled forms are not accepted.) Signatures must be collected on forms that are specific to each city, county and congressional district. Only “qualified” voters may sign a petition. And every single petition form must be sworn and notarized.
*snip*
For all candidates who have met the statutory requirement, I think the Party’s plan to scrutinize some candidates’ signatures and not others, based upon the arbitrary standard of whether the candidates submitted a full 50% more than the statutory requirement, violates the Equal Protection Clause under Bush v. Gore. It seems to me that all candidates who facially meet the statutory requirement should have their petitions and signatures adjudged according to the same standard.
Virginia's qualification process is an absurdity
reggie182 Saturday, December 24th at 11:12AM EST (link)Both Perry & Gingrich should be on the ballot. At the very least people should be allowed to write them in. The blame shouldn’t be on the candidates who failed to qualify. It should be on the process put in place by Virginia.
And of course you have it exactly backwards
barleycorn (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:18AM EST (link)The blame clearly rests on the campaigns who failed to collect enough valid signatures.
Nope, I've got it exactly right
reggie182 Saturday, December 24th at 11:24AM EST (link)The requirements are an absurdity. I am not suggesting that the laws be circumvented, I’m saying that they are unreasonably demanding and should be cited as such.
So a campaign who knows what the rules are
barleycorn (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:31AM EST (link)is not to blame when they fail to qualify? Riiiight.
Whether Virginia’s rules are too strict is not at issue here. As has been pointed out elsewhere, various fringe candidates through the years have easily qualified in Virginia.
The problem is hubris and the lack of organization that is the result of said hubris.
Gingrich is my first choice and Perry my second, but they both screwed up big time in Virginia.
Well... no
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:02PM EST (link)The lachrymose ballot restrictions are effectively barriers to entry for emergent grassroots campaigns. Clearly, they are limiting for campaigns bereft of resources but suddenly flush with support.
Not that I’m whining about it: I’m not going to cry for such as Newt Gingrich or Rick Perry. Nevertheless, it is very much a notion that is antithetical to democratic notions (and not in a good way). Chalk this up as another Life Is Not Fair moment.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
I was going to ask...
TSquared Saturday, December 24th at 12:44PM EST (link)…what purpose is served by the RPV system. Particularly when other states only require you pay a fee and register.
I can understand wanting to have a closed primary vs. open primaries like in N.H….
The only rational I could come up with is what you just stated. Barriers for emergent grassroots campaigns. Incumbency/establishment protection…
There are many such rules
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:22PM EST (link)all over the country, most related to third parties and how they operate. Some states are better than others, but generally the older the state, the more burdensome the rules. It makes sense, in a cold sort of way: much like business regulations, it allows for the established incumbent to have yet more advantages over his opponent (familiarity with the rules and the funds/manpower to comply with them). These flaws become most evident when there’s an actual contest where there is no incumbent or established favorite. These rules are one reason why supporting a third party is so foolish: like it or not, the nation is both culturally and legally rigged to be a two-party one, and that’s been the case for many, many years.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Federalism. 10th Amendment.
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 1:25AM EST (link)Do we want to treat VA election laws like the D’s treated FL election laws in 2000? Or how they treated the exit of the Torch in NJ?
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Primaries are a party thing anyway...
Dave_A (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 3:30AM EST (link)If the RNC wants this fixed, all they have to do is boot VA’s delegation unless the rules are changed before the primary….
No ‘FedGov’ involvement at all…
The law is the law – until the legislature changes it, after all…
Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page
Primary ballots are a state issue
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:50AM EST (link)You are correct that the RNC can work around the issue by booting the VA delegation and thinking up some alternative arrangement.
The law is the law until it is changed. I would rather see the law fixed than to have the law in place but the situation fixed.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
It wasn't a barrier to Alan Keyes
renl57 Saturday, December 24th at 1:26PM EST (link)If even Alan Keyes could get more signatures than Perry, then the problem is with the Perry campaign.
Alan Keyes' campaign
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:26PM EST (link)was in no way an emergent or topical one: the man ran in four separate Presidential campaigns, and had a Senate seat. He was a bad candidate, but not one with little organization or time to get his organization in order, such as it was. Again, I ain’t complaining: it is certainly a possibility that the Perry campaign was once again incompetent. I’m simply expressing what I believe to be a flaw in VA’s laws, even if they also reveal flaws in other campaigns.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Actually they DID enforce the rules differently this time
clowngirl (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:54PM EST (link)It’s being reported that this year is apparently the first time they cross checked the addresses. So if a registered voter wrote down an address that doesn’t match the voter rolls it got thrown out. It’s possible many voters have moved in the past 3 years but just haven’t updated their registration…
John McCain got 1,730,000 VA votes in 2008
Remington_Steele (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:04PM EST (link)and you’re whining that campaigns who knew about this requirement for the last four months couldn’t get 10,000 signatures?!? If you can’t solve this problem in four months, what can you solve?
amen Remington
texasref (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:42PM EST (link)…
Apparently Rem Steele..
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 6:36AM EST (link)This is the first year they suddenly decide to check the signatures and addresses electronically…the other years they didn’t do that. The other beef I have is that they have this rule if you get 15,000 signatures they don’t check at all…so who is to say that Mitt actually wouldn’t have half of his votes thrown away also???? I think maybe it would be more prudent to not judge until all the facts are in.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
Total lack of address and lack of notarization, other errors dropped both Gingrich and Perry under 10k even before the electronic address check
teme Monday, December 26th at 7:53AM EST (link)By the way getting 15k isn’t that hard
Found this from 2008 from Red state archives by Erick:
“Romney, Fred, Rudy, McCain, Huckabee, and Paul all filed over 15,000 signatures each – well above the recommended minimums.”
Teme where did you hear that?
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 8:04AM EST (link)I thought Perry at least was looking into it all and they didn’t really know what all was the reason for the signatures being thrown out and there has been all kinds of conflicting reports. So where did you get your information? Also No it wouldn’t be that hard at all if you just filled out a bunch of information and knew that if you got 15,000 or more that they wouldn’t even check it…so you can be dishonest all you want and no one is going to check it anyways is what I see?? I think it is prudent to not judge until all the facts are in.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
Sheet notarization errors alone dropped Perry's signatures by more than 1k
teme Monday, December 26th at 8:25AM EST (link)http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/perrys-va-ballot-hopes-were-dead-arrival/274906
A source with knowledge of the Republican Party of Virginia (RPV) petition signature verification process says Rick Perry was ‘dead on arrival’ and had no chance of getting on the ballot, even before the verification process began.
The source said more than 1,000 of Perry’s 11,911 signatures were automatically invalid because the sheets they were turned in on had not been notarized, a requirement set forth by the Virginia Board of Elections. Furthermore the source said the campaign also did not follow ‘simple’ rules such using double-sided petition sheets or correctly licensed notaries.
Even if Perry’s campaign had not violated the state’s other filing rules, the source said Perry’s campaign had a much higher rate of invalid signatures than the other campaigns.
teme- A source with knowledge is not a valid source
Scope (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:21AM EST (link)I know you been running around this site, positively gloating over the fact that Perry and Gingrich didn’t get on the VA ballot, but the least you could do is “check your sources” instead of bring garbage links to prove how stupid Perry and Gingrich are.
The author of that article refers to “a source with knowledge” which equals nothing. If you look at the comments section to the article, most everyone there calls her out for writing a hit piece with nothing to back up her claims except anonymous sources. Go back and look at all of the past articles that Francesca Chambers has written about Romney. She positively gloats over him and how fantastic he is.
Folks this is how rumors get started and carried around, and teme is only to happy to participate in carrying around those fraudulent hit pieces.
Scope, I posted that same article on RS
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:44AM EST (link)as soon as it posted online. It is a joke, the fix is in and coordinated well with salivating journalists anxious to winnow the field in favor of Romney. These “rules are rules” folks, teme and thirstyboots for two, are going to be back in these RedState rooms embittered and spewing anti-Democracy rhetoric once VaGOP gets their head out of the sand and concedes the will of the voters, instead of their own arbitrary fluctuating fuzzy ballot rules.
Democracy in Virginia is either going to be decided by these hodgepodge muddled rules and the subsequent lawyers in a court room, or decided by the will of the voter. Now, which scenario would the founding fathers support?
Scope, I don't think Teme cares if its the truth or not.
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 10:27AM EST (link)He/She is a Mittens fan and when has Mittens ever cared if it was the truth or not?? That says it all.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
It is pretty obvious which side has engaged more in unproven accusations and speculation when it comes to the failure of all but 2 campaigns to collect over 10k valid signatures.
teme Monday, December 26th at 10:39AM EST (link)We don’t have anything but anonymous sources since they didn’t apparently have time to put out the full official declaration of reasons of disqualification for each ballot. We will know more after Christmas break. But anonymous sources quoted by journalists are much more better than conspiracies and accusations based on no sources.
No. There are no unproven accusations and speculation.
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 10:47AM EST (link)Fact is, the rules changed this year for signature verification. Michael Osborne’s pending election lawsuit in Virginia set a “precedent” oddly enough to alter the way ballot petitions are scrutinized.
Throw out your stupid arguments on previous election cycles where candidates turned in tens of thousands of signatures, those were not cross checked with addresses. Besides, Judges tend to rule in favor of voter participation, which obviously you do not. Your own hypotheses and theories of the Perry & Gingrich campaigns are frivolous and without merit.
Obvious to whom?
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 10:56AM EST (link)Yes, Teme which side would that be? I am all agog with curiosity. NOT!
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
teme- much more better?
Scope (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:01AM EST (link)You must be a product of the Federally mandated school system that your guy supports. As long as he can keep everyone dumb, they won’t recognize his flips and flops and re-flips.
Who do you mean by “they” in reference to not putting out information, Perry and Gingrich? I can’t speak for Gingrich, but it would not behoove Perry, or his team from releasing any information as they are looking at their legal options currently.
The anonymous sources you choose to rely on have no more information than the man in the moon, but being Romney supporters they are playing the game of trying to dishearten the Perry and Gingrich supporters ahead of Iowa. That’s been Romney’s game all along, lies, distortions, untruths, yet you criticize those that have posted factual information about him, his record, and his campaign tactics. You do fit his mold nicely.
One must consider the source, Scope.
acat (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:07AM EST (link)The word teme is an anglicization of a Japanese put-down, after all.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
I am an anonymous scource.
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:04AM EST (link)Romney got half of his signatures off of gravestones to push his numbers above 15K, so as not to have any verified.
I am just as valid as any anonymous scource you trust in.
.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
Teme, all all can tell you is this:
heraklios Monday, December 26th at 11:08AM EST (link)Assuming your man, Mittens, wins the nomination, there will be a lot of conservatives with scores to settle with the D.C. Establishment. My guess is that many conservatives will take some quiet satisfaction from seeing your man crash and burn against Barry O. Keep gloating is all I can say. Conservative gloating will commence when Mittens is delivering his inevitable concession speech.
Except Newt and Perry did
gogogodzilla Monday, December 26th at 12:06AM EST (link)Blaming a campaign for failing to collect the required number of signatures (10,000)… when they did collect over the required number of signatures does not make sense.
By not applying the same standard to all the candidates in terms of signature verification, the VAGOP is vulnerable to charges of failing to uphold the Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.
You can argue that the 15,000 rule is applied to all, but the counterargument is that the 15,000 rule is arbitrary.
Live free or die!
Oh my what horrible restrictions!
barleycorn (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:23AM EST (link)“But then there are the additional restrictions: The petition circulators must be registered or eligible to vote in Virginia. The signatures must be gathered using the State Board of Elections’ official form, a two-page document which must be reproduced as double-sided. (Single-sided stapled forms are not accepted.) Signatures must be collected on forms that are specific to each city, county and congressional district. Only “qualified” voters may sign a petition. And every single petition form must be sworn and notarized.”
Absolutely terrible!
The signature gatherers have to be eligible to in Virginia? Well how unreasonable. There’s only about 3 or 4 million Virginians eligible to vote so that is a tough nut to crack right there.
I mean what kind of neanderthal operation requires you to use a specific form?!
And having to fill out all those place names!
And imagine requiring QUALIFIED VOTERS!
Horrors!
Rules just plain suck.
Actually, I've heard the notary requirement is the most burdensome
Paula (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:19PM EST (link)“And every single petition form must be sworn and notarized.”
And of course, the notary and signature collector cannot be the same person.
Having done some of this in Ohio (which has similar requirements, minus the notary rule), the part about “specific to each city, county and congressional district.” is a royal pain. Not sure if this is how it works in VA, but in Ohio ours must be county-specific, which means each petition must contain signatures from only one county. If you have signatures from more than one on your form, they are immediately disqualified. So if you turn in a form with 50 signatures and 20 of them are from a different county, those 20 are immediately thrown out, whether or not they would otherwise be valid signatures.
When you approach people to sign your petitions, half of them – probably more than half – don’t know which congressional district they live in. Many aren’t sure if they’re registered to vote. Many can’t remember if they voted in the previous primary and if they did, they’re not sure which party they voted for. You’re lucky if they’ll give you their address. This is the stuff ACORN is made for.
Paula
My blog: Bold Colors
Follow me on Twitter: pbolyard
Doonesbury
naraht Saturday, December 24th at 1:30PM EST (link)I know that quoting Doonesbury isn’t exactly normal here, but I am *so* reminded about the strips he did about Anderson getting ballot access in 1980.
http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1980/05/14 (And the few days after that)
…30.000 Residents including 10,000 Left-Handed Pipe Welders, 5,000 Albino Eskimos…
5
Bill S (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:50PM EST (link)I used to read Doonesbury all the time when I was in HS. I actually voted for John Anderson in that election (go figure – I was a stupid 18-yr-old). The one I found hilarious was the strip where Zonker’s mom was Paul McCloskey’s only delegate against Nixon in 1972.
“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins
Alan Keynes and Dennis Kucinich were able to get on VA ballot
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:10AM EST (link)in the 2008 Primary. But Perry and Gingrich can’t? Don’t blame Virginia or the primary process, which has had these rules for 30 years. Blame on those candidates’ complete lack of organization. They can’t even get their names on the ballot and they think they can run the United States of America as its President?
The only ones melting down are the campaigns of Perry and Gingrich. This is political Darwinism in action and I’m glad VA has the opportunity to expose these buffoons for what they are.
Typo: Alan Keyes
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:18AM EST (link)haha not Keynesian
They were still better known than Huntsman (or Perry)...
elayman Saturday, December 24th at 11:51AM EST (link)Perry (and Huntsman) would have had to begin collecting signatures almost immediately after announcing to collect as many signatures as Romney, who already had a team in place from 2008 ready to go in Virginia on August 1.
Too many balls are still up in the air at this point in the cycle to demand the resources apparently required to qualify, by this date, for Virginia. Republican primary voters have barked up the tree of unelectable fringe candidates all season, but there needs to be space for a relatively unknown to burst onto the scene in the early states.
Wow, it's not that hard...
Remington_Steele (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:30PM EST (link)This was all about planning, not insurmountable rules that late campaigns can’t handle. With research, voter registrations and cold calling, let’s break it down:
1. 10,000 signatures with 400 from each district
2.. Huntsman, Perry and Gingrich had +4 months to get them
3. Paying 5 people $12 an hour to get signatures for 4 months
a. 80 business days
b. 25 signatures a day using voter registrations
c. 80 days * 5 workers * 25 signatures = 10K goal
d. At least $40,000 in labor to do
With failures from cold calls, it would probably take $40K to $100K to get all the signatures. All the campaigns had the money and resources to solve this problem,, there is no excuse for these failures.
This is why something stinks... the requirements are not insurmountable, and are *known*...
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:39PM EST (link)so why did Perry and Gingrich and Bachmann and Santorum all fail to achieve them?
Something smells.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
I'll agree
Remington_Steele (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:54PM EST (link)when I see the evidence. This is about failure of campaigns. Just another, “oops” moment.
Nothing smells but candidates
Whacker77 Saturday, December 24th at 1:17PM EST (link)What smells is, other than Perry, the people who failed to get on the ballot were never real candidates. They were simply trying to raise their profiles to increase their book and speaking fees. Newt and Cain only shot to the top of the field briefly because 75% of the primary voters are desperate to find someone other than Romney.
There’s no conspiracy here. Why would Virginia want to lose tha advertising dollars availabe from a contested campaign? Why would the state party want to lose the excitement and voter identifcation that goes along with a primary?
The fact is the candidates who failed to get on the ballot haven’t taken this process seriously and it is an embarrassment to the party as a whole.
Nothing smells but candidates
Whacker77 Saturday, December 24th at 1:17PM EST (link)What smells is, other than Perry, the people who failed to get on the ballot were never real candidates. They were simply trying to raise their profiles to increase their book and speaking fees. Newt and Cain only shot to the top of the field briefly because 75% of the primary voters are desperate to find someone other than Romney.
There’s no conspiracy here. Why would Virginia want to lose tha advertising dollars availabe from a contested campaign? Why would the state party want to lose the excitement and voter identifcation that goes along with a primary?
The fact is the candidates who failed to get on the ballot haven’t taken this process seriously and it is an embarrassment to the party as a whole.
Minor candidates
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 1:54PM EST (link)Most of those candidates polling in high single digits would be Duncan Hunters in a normal cycle.
And Gingrich is Gingrich. He doesn’t really have a campaign. His staff deserted him accusing him of not taking things seriously. Heck, he spent most of this week in DC and NOVA signing books.
Perry turned in 11,911...
evilleramsfan Sunday, December 25th at 8:37PM EST (link)n/t
“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett
No reason Virginia rules need to be the most restrictive in the country
elayman Saturday, December 24th at 1:28PM EST (link)I don’t know about the Perry campaign, but Huntsman only reached 5% national polling within the last two weeks. If front runners like Gingrich can’t even get cleared, or need to resort to voters making a donation to sign, imagine how burdensome it would have been for the lower end candidates. They obviously made the quite rational decision not to file based on the time and investment involved weighed against the number of delegates at stake.
It's not really that difficult
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 1:51PM EST (link)If you can’t get 10,000 signatures in Virginia, then there’s a good chance you really lack the grassroot support or the organization or the money to manage an effective campaign for president.
And some state will have the most restrictive rules. I’m not even sure it’s Virginia. Are you?
Needing grassroots support nearly a year before voting begins...
elayman Saturday, December 24th at 2:17PM EST (link)Doesn’t speak to anything but a concerted effort by the state party establishment to keep newcomer and write-in candidates off the ticket.
Whether it is the most or one of the most rigorous, only a failed system excludes four out of the six major candidates seeking access to the ballot.
Nearly a year? How come?
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 2:24PM EST (link)The voting begins in 10 days and the Virginia primary is in early March.
Come on, these guys aren’t running for a school board.
Considering the Romney campaign began gathering signatures in August
elayman Saturday, December 24th at 2:50PM EST (link)Candidates beginning from absolute scratch and already up to their eyeballs in debt could not even begin to justify an advance on that with still a very slim guarantee of success. by, say, Spring of 2011 — a solid year ahead of Super Tuesday voting. Forget Virginia with the party is in disarray and with STILL so many balls up in the air this late into the nominating process.
And yet we wonder
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:53PM EST (link)why our candidates always suck. Democracy in action, folks…
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
I don't really understand what you're trying to say
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 3:05PM EST (link)But with a competent paid operation one week should be enough to collect those signatures. It’s 10,000, not one million. Heck, even Fred Thompson and his anemic campaign managed to get them and he was a very late entry four years ago.
These guys problem wasn’t a lack of time – some of them didn’t even try because they don’t plan to still be on the race by the time of the Virginia primary, with others it was an issue of competence. I wonder when exactly someone said “oh s****, how the heck nobody figured out we needed signatures to get on ballot in Virginia”.
Not saying that the VA system is a good one, elayman
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:09PM EST (link)All the same, if a candidate is going to into the race with any intention at all of winning it, then they have to be willing to face these kinds of challenges and respond appropriately.
More than anything else, that’s what some of our candidates failed to do in this situation. And being a Conservative who strongly believes in individual accountability and taking responsibility for our actions, I’m not much inclined to give those who failed a “pass” by blaming it all on the system.
It ain't that easy
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 3:46PM EST (link)You probably have to ask 20 random people before you get one to even let you talk to him, and only 1 out of 20 of those will sign. And you won’t be allowed to do this in most public places anyway, like shopping malls and sidewalks. Malls particularly will eject or arrest you for trespassing immediately. The best way is to have a stable of donors, and then go door to door to get the signatures of your known donors. If you don’t have 15,000 known donors in the state, too bad. The only other way would have been to collect signatures near the polling places during this year’s legislative elections, and you would have to be 150 feet from the polling place and aligned with local party operatives to do this.
Perry
greyeagle Saturday, December 24th at 10:18PM EST (link)Turned in over 11,000 signatures. Why that went down below 10,000 is questionable. Hopefully Perry will challenge this fiasco after Christmas and get his own people in there to check the rolls.
That isn't surprising
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 3:53PM EST (link)If 90% of the signatures are valid, Perry would still have failed. Do you really expect even 90% to have valid up to date address and congressional district information on the petition that matches the voter rolls? Remember, this is a redistricting year, and lots of people move in Virginia. You really need 15,000 to be safe.
Well, a strong GOTV push is no longer necessary.
tngal (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:12AM EST (link)At least in the VA primary. Half the candidates didn’t even try. And two who did were not accepted.
Are there any other states/commonwealths/territories that have such a stringent qualifying process?
What happened to states' rights?
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:15AM EST (link)Or are we a country of provinces with one centralized government?
That was settled in 1865
Ed54 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:23AM EST (link)nt
“If all men were just, there would be no need of valor.”
- Agesilaus
"States rights" does not mean
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:04PM EST (link)that we have to clap like trained seals when a given state accomplishes some unique buffoonery or other.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
No, we don't, but when a candidates is running for President,
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:12PM EST (link)they do have to respect that “buffoonery”, whether they like it or not.
That much is true
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:33PM EST (link)OTOH, it seems like lots of people are pointing out that the rules are counterproductive for their stated purpose of providing a democratic means to choose our nominee (regardless of the Perry and Gingrich campaign’s incompetence at following these rules), and that Romneybots are screaming STATE RIGHTS!!!!, as if that magically makes dumb rules into smart ones.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Agreed, there are posters
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:42PM EST (link)who are putting their own interpretations on the context of the situation.
It’s Christmas Eve, and this has upset (or thrilled) supporters of various candidates (depending on who they support).
Within the context of VA law, all candidates were expected to meet specific requirements. Some succeeded in it. Others didn’t. That’s how it is, unfortunately.
Whether it is the best choice to promote a democratic means to choose our nominee is something that should be questioned. But for the time being, we’d be better off to stay away from crying “poor me” over the situation (Not that you would, but that’s the type of attitude coming across in some posts today).
The best way to get rid of stupid laws is to enforce them
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:54AM EST (link)Many would call this the Scalia approach.
The election laws of Florida, NJ, and VA are not exactly selling points for federalism.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
GOP
gogogodzilla Monday, December 26th at 12:10AM EST (link)The VAGOP is a part of the national GOP, thus is not a state and does not fall under the 10th amendment.
This is not an issue with an election, but is an issue internal to the VAGOP.
And by that token, if the national GOP decides to step in, the VAGOP would have to accept it or leave the GOP.
Live free or die!
Re: other states with stringent qualifying process
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 11:28AM EST (link)This is the best place to start looking, that I’ve found after a few minutes of searching:
http://blueamerica.firedoglake.com/ballot-access-state-by-state/
(… yeah.)
Follow the link, navigate the state law – and please come back with your findings, if you do this.
For instance, of Virginia state law:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+24.2-545
NY Makes VA Look Like Picnic
urbanelephants Saturday, December 24th at 3:12PM EST (link)In NY there are two ways to get on the ballot.
First Way. At the state convention get 25% of the vote. Isn’t unheard of for multiple candidate to top this threshold.
Second Way. Collect 50,000 signatures overall with at least a varying number in each congressional district. Honestly outside of NYC this isn’t the hardest thing to accomplish but inside NYC this can be very problematic because access to the voters is not a certainty seeing as you have to get into apartment buildings.
I’ve worked petitioning for several candidates in a handful of states. NYC is hands down the most problematic to gather signatures which is what makes doing it in New York hard.
Actually, NY is a cakewalk compared to VA. What you posted isn't even close to accurate w/ regard to Presidential candidates
clowngirl (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 9:52PM EST (link)I just looked it up to be sure.
The State of New York State Board of Elections document entitled
“The Presidential Primary Election in New York State: Summary of the Ballot Access Requirements” lists three different ways a candidate can qualify (they only need one of the three):
1. Any candidate who qualifies for Presidential Primary matching funds
2. Anyone who is a nationally known and recognized candidate
3. Get 5000 (not 50,000) signatures with no geographic distribution requirement
Tens of thousands of Virginians are being
sunshinek67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:14AM EST (link)disenfranchised by these onerous rules regardless of who did or didn’t do their respective jobs. Is Romney VA campaign chair Bolling doing oversight? Is Perry’s VA campaign chair Kilgore quoted or misquoted just THAT indifferent or incompetent? Someone on Twitter said he needs to be parking cars by Monday if not sooner. Regardless, the 25% anybody but Romney stands, Paul’s recent antics are going to all but disqualify him from GOP minds, he will still get the anti-war pot vote, crossover Dems.. VA GOP irrelevant either way this is going down at present. Democracy in Virginia is a joke.
I would NOT want to be in Dave Carney or Joe Allbaugh's homes today.
louisianapatriette (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 9:52PM EST (link)My mom said she pities their wives this Christmas. Carney and Allbaugh have got be blowing smoke out of their ears. Kilgore should be sent packing as soon as Christmas is over and I wait in anticipation for Perry’s personal response when he gets back in Iowa on Tuesday. Oh boy oh boy, it should be interesting.
“Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts.”–Winston Churchill
@ChangeForPerry
My thoughts also loupat
carolina Saturday, December 24th at 10:37PM EST (link)The campaign staff has failed WIDE OPEN.
the virginia GOP is going to come out of this looking bad, no doubt about it.
mikeymike143 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:15AM EST (link)because the only two candidates who qualified are the ones that ran in the republican primary in 2008 and knew they would be running again in 2012. so they already had a campaign team in place in virginia to deal with this. perry didnt even know he was running for president until a few months ago.
its just another rule to protect favorites and campaigns with ”deep pockets”. and the GOP wonders why it has a reputation as being ”elitist”. LOL
ken cuccinelli is the AG in virginia and a man with a bright political future. maybe he will do something about this.
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We're talking about state laws, not GOP regulations
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 11:29AM EST (link)In Virginia, the primary process is run by the state. The ballot access threshold is a matter of law.
Perry/Gingrich apologists may try to spin this as fault of the Va. GOP but they didn’t set the requirements.
The ultimate authority is the national party ...
deVere Saturday, December 24th at 12:46PM EST (link)and they should simply refuse to seat the Virginia delegates.
As far as Alan Keyes making the ballot in 2008, that is apparently incorrect.
http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/documents/ElectionResults/Feb12_RepublicanPrimary.pdf
I suspect they didn’t check the petitions very carefully in 2008. Times have certainly changed.
When Romney is referred to as “Obama light”, the name is unfortunately quite appropriate.
Complete nonsense
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 1:21PM EST (link)Because your favorite candidate doesn’t have the grassroots support or the organization to meet the ballot requirements the RNC should disavow the delegates? Campaigns who managed to reach the incompetency levels to screw this need to take a long hard look at the mirror and figure out what’s wrong with them. Maybe this is the warning they needed to get their act together.
I never said Alan Keyes made the ballot in 2008, I have no idea why you wrote that. And they checked the petitions – it’s really not that hard to collect them. Heck, there are companies that are paid to do this.
Alan Keyes made it to 2000 Republican primary ballot
teme Saturday, December 24th at 2:35PM EST (link)The rules were same in 2000 and 2008 and 2012 have been same for decades
Not so, Teme
nathanalbright (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 8:29AM EST (link)In the past, the candidates who had 10,000 signatures were automatically accepted. Now they aren’t. That’s arbitrary, and unacceptable.
No they were not, that's why in 2008, 6 campaigns collected over 15k according to Erick
teme Monday, December 26th at 9:32AM EST (link)Even Fred Thompson who jumped in in September managed to get 15k in time.
Found this from 2008 from Red state archives by Erick:
“Romney, Fred, Rudy, McCain, Huckabee, and Paul all filed over 15,000 signatures each – well above the recommended minimums.”
They were not checked electronically, but rather automatically approved...
nathanalbright (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:34AM EST (link)…so it still holds. The law itself only requires 10k signatures and both Perry and Newt got that. Go fish.
Database mismatch was not the problem, but apparently total lack of any addresses
teme Monday, December 26th at 9:56AM EST (link)I’m sure in 2008 they checked fast at least a sample of each candidates signatures, if they were properly notarized or had any addresses at all.
http://bearingdrift.com/2011/12/24/breaking-gingrich-2000-ballot-signatures-short/
UPDATE (12.53am): Sources at RPV are telling me that the 2,000 signatures do not have addresses on them… meaning that they cannot be verified. Newt Gingrich may very well be off the ticket in Virginia, folks…
Apparently you are not aware of the pending VA election lawsuit by Michael Osborne
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 10:02AM EST (link)“Virginia 2011 Independent Candidate for Legislature has Big Impact on 2012 Presidential Primary”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2825002/posts
No, sunshine...
nathanalbright (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 10:18AM EST (link)He’s only aware of the Rombot party line.
Yes, and he, she it "rules are rules" will be back in the RedState rooms whining
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 10:21AM EST (link)when Perry & Gingrich are put back on the ballot.
Romney will do better if Perry & Gingrich are put back on the Virginia ballot
David123 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:37AM EST (link)If Romney is the nominee, it will be much easier for the non-Romney supporters to unify behind him for the general election if the primary election process is fair.
Keeping Gingrich and Perry off the Virginia ballot reeks of unfairness and impropriety.
Romney is not my first choice, but if he wins the nomination fairly, I’ll very happily support him in the general election.
David123
That is the larger point here...
nathanalbright (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 10:43PM EST (link)….a victory that does not reek of corruption is far preferable to an election that looks “stolen.”
I can believe I am saying this....
reggie182 Saturday, December 24th at 11:21AM EST (link)But if Newt & Perry are excluded from the VA ballot and there is no option for a write-in, then people should vote for Ron Paul and simply deny Romney the delegates.
I say that with the stipulation that by the time the VA primary rolls around, Ron Paul has no legitimate chance of being nominated.
I meant I "can't" believe I'm saying this
reggie182 Saturday, December 24th at 11:22AM EST (link)n/t
Why would Virginians with their proclivity for military contracts do that?
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:26AM EST (link)You guys are so full of hate for Romney, that it’s time to sit down and reflect a little over the past 6 months and all the conservative values you have thrown out of the window to rationalize other candidates in order to satisfy your Romney hatred.
Haners, I began as a Romney supporter
reggie182 Saturday, December 24th at 11:32AM EST (link)I switched to Newt a couple months ago but kept Romney as my second choice. When Gingrich became the frontrunner Romney started an aggressively negative campaign while Newt stayed positive. Newt challenged him to a Lincoln Douglas debate to answer Mitt’s charges directly to his face. Mitt chickened out, and gave the completely disingenuous excuse that it wouldn’t be fair to the other candidates. That’s a big part the reason why I don’t want Mitt to be the nominee.
You know damn well as I do that Newt if he had the money would have gone all negative as well
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:36AM EST (link)The underdog in every political campaign bemoans about his opponent’s negativity. Newt had no money to go negative so what was he going to do? Even Newt’s “positive campaign” was only marginally that given his attacks against Romney’s practice of capitalism.
Newt was the underdog for months...
reggie182 Saturday, December 24th at 11:44AM EST (link)and he kept his campaign positive and focused at Obama. He even chastised a debate moderator for trying to turn the candidates against each other.
And again, Mitt’s refusal to meet Gingrich face to face is absolutely pathetic.
When I supported Romney and the idea of round-robin Lincoln-Douglas debates was being discussed, it was something that I thought Romney would agree to, considering that he is a very good debater. I also said at the time that if for some odd reason he refused, he wouldn’t get my support for the nomination under any circumstances. He’s not my second choice, not my third, he’s fallen off the grid. I’ll only support him if he is the nominee…..and maybe if he and Ron Paul are the only two candidates. I honestly don’t know about that scenario.
Gingrich's face to face debate challenge
Ed54 (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 1:11PM EST (link)is a transparent tactic to gain advantage by shrinking the field to 2 candidates. Mighty presumptuous of Newt to unilaterally decide that Perry and Paul no longer deserve to be considered serious candidates. I’m no Paul fan, but he currently leads the polls in Iowa; who is Gingrich to declare that he and his supporters are irrelevant?
If Romney fell for that sucker move, he would deserve to be disqualified for sheer political incompetence. That would be almost as bad as, say, failing to do the legwork to qualify on the primary ballot for a major state. But who would do such sloppy work?
“If all men were just, there would be no need of valor.”
- Agesilaus
Newt debated both Cain and Huntsman LD style
reggie182 Sunday, December 25th at 2:36PM EST (link)What was that about? As far as I know, Newt is willing and eager to debate any of the candidates, including Perry, in that format.
It is to my mind the best format for a deep and substanative discussion of the issues. The race would have benefited if there had been round robin LD debates between all the candidates.
Did you pick the short straw?
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:43AM EST (link)At romneybot.com, that is. How long is your sentence here?
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Romney deserves all the hate we throw his way
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 4:00PM EST (link)He is vile, slimy, dishonest….He resembles the GOP D.C. Establishment to a “T” We need to throw all of them out and get some real Americans in charge of the Party
You are right, haners, and I'm not even being funny.
trickamsterdam Saturday, December 24th at 8:59PM EST (link)I’m a Newt guy (after being a Perry and then a Cain guy), and I’m sorry, but this just can’t be justified. Romney is the most competent. This nation needs competence, after the last ten years.
Until something changes, he (Romney) has my vote.
Agreed
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:05PM EST (link)Romney is not acceptable, and Ron Paul will not win.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Here's a good summary...
rightwingnut2 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:40PM EST (link)of how the delegates are awarded. It would be very easy to deny Romney a single delegate in Virginia.
http://bearingdrift.com/2011/12/19/republicans-to-begin-validating-petitions-dec-23/
Actual delegate counts aren't as important as media buzz and genuine momentum.
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:59PM EST (link)This hurts the entire Republican Party. Romney’s in a tough spot too. Spend time resources to campaign in VA or go elsewhere as it is unlikely Perry or Gingrich will spend time and capital in VA, and will concentrate on other Super Tuesday states.
I hope the RNC is at this very moment checking every state and get the word out if there’s a problem, and pour massive resources into making sure this doesn’t happen in any other state.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
I hate it but I agree
tomatin Sunday, December 25th at 12:53PM EST (link)I’m just glad I’m not a VA voter. If VA costs Newt or Perry the nomination. I think I’ll be sick.
Are there any major "downballot" races that this could effect? Propositions? Anything?
tngal (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:23AM EST (link)March is a long way off and many of the lower tier candidates would have dropped by then anyway. But with only two choices for the big race there’s not a lot of incentive to bother with it if you don’t like either of the two. That puts downballot candidates and items in jeopardy.
How is managerial incompetence
Ed54 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:25AM EST (link)by Perry and Gingrich somehow Romney’s fault?
“If all men were just, there would be no need of valor.”
- Agesilaus
Perry's inability to speak English is Romney's fault too
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:32AM EST (link)Gingrich’s 1.6 million dollars from Fannie Mae is Romney’s fault.
Why? Because Romney is from New England and a Mormon. QED.
QED...how cool
Samsara (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:40AM EST (link)Thought I was reading the Ethics there for a minute.
QED...how cool
Samsara (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:40AM EST (link)Thought I was reading the Ethics there for a minute.
I think the only people who 'really' care
wennejunk (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:48AM EST (link)that Romney is a Mormon are Romney supporters and other Mormons.
The rest of us care about his disingenuous flip-flopping around the issues of our time.
Unless that is also a Mormon value. In which case, then yes – I too would be against him because he is a Mormon.
Otherwise give it up on the Mormon argument.
Massachusetts? Nope.
Genuine Conservatives can be found anywhere, even in Mass.
Damn few there, of course, but they exist. Romney is not one of those few.
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ -C. S. Lewis
Agree, only people harping on Mormonism
mong001 Saturday, December 24th at 1:07PM EST (link)are Romney and his minions. Mitt sure likes to play the victim card, which is a big turn off for social conservatives since Romney implies they oppose him for his religious beliefs when the real reason for their opposition is his flip-flopping on abortion and his wife’s contribution to Planned Parenthood.
He's not FROM New England
porkandcheese Saturday, December 24th at 1:44PM EST (link)That’s why Ted “the Swimmer” Kennedy kicked his plastic Mormon behind. Willard Mitt moved to MA after making some high-falluting friend at Harvard and figuring he could buy himself a Senate seat. In a Republican wave year, his calculations misfired, and he lost by 18 points after spending $7.5 million of his own fortune. He persisted and squeaked into the governor’s mansion a few years later, barely carrying a majority, after securing the blessings of various Democrat special interests groups like the gays and PP.
That is your Mormon RINO “moderate” “turnaround artist” –
He passed gay marriage, cap and trade, pro-abortion legislation, gun bans and the protype for Obamacare, which he wants to keep mostly intact.
I'm in the anyone but Romney (and Paul) camp but
tomatin Sunday, December 25th at 1:03PM EST (link)I don’t blame VA for this. I do blame the candidates organizations and all of their VA campaign camps should be fired because I believe in accountability. Part of leadership is delegating which I’m sure each candidate did but they were let down by their own people at least in some way. I’m sure each breakdown in getting the signatures was unique based on my experience running my own business. It could have been communication errors, local coordination mistakes or just plain incompetence, whatever. That said accountability starts at the head of the organization which are managed by candidates themselves so they bare the ultimate responsibility.
Saw Rove..
Samsara (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:34AM EST (link)Saw Rove on Fox this morning talking about this…he was so excited I thought he would pee himself. And don’t even think about Trump because he is all ego.
Headline: Pot calls Kettle black.
We just have to burn down the Republican Party this year
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 11:54AM EST (link)And then rebuild it in our own image. I would go even further and ditch the name Republican and rename us the Conservative Party. That way, there’s no misunderstanding with the RINOs about what kind of party this is.
heraklios, I'm on board for that Conservative Party!
circlegranch Saturday, December 24th at 12:53PM EST (link)It’s not our fault we’ve been hijacked. Read my posts from early this a.m……National Review, The Heritage Foundation, the GW Bush Library, the whole ball of wax has been hijacked by the elite wing of the GOP and all are recipients of big money from ONE of the candidates in this race.
I simply don’t buy into the idea that the Perry campaign was so naive and stupid that they didn’t bother to find out the rules in VA.
The conservative movement is under attack on all fronts. Look what happened in Congress this week.
Any state GOP organization is SUPPOSED to have one objective in mind: to facilitate the voting process for the candidates which includes keeping in close communication with ALL campaigns to make sure their rules and restrictions are clearly understood.
Thanks for the big lump of Republican coal, Santa.
Naive isn't the word but...
urbanelephants Saturday, December 24th at 3:57PM EST (link)Incompetence fits fairly well which is just as awful.
Getting on the ballot by petitioning for a well funded and candidate with national support should be no problem. Last I checked Perry raised a boatload of money the previous quarter so I guess this really comes down to his support is just in Texas or the campaign staff is incompetent.
Having managed petitioning for many candidates from US Senate down to city council races I’m going to incompetent.
Look I don't know where the breakdown happened
tomatin Sunday, December 25th at 1:08PM EST (link)But as a manager of my own business for years sometimes people just tell you everything is fine when it isn’t. You can’t always check all the details even though I agree my top priority as a manager would be making sure we qualified in all the states. However we still don’t know the details of what happened. I hope we do at some point because I would like to see if it was mostly Newt’s or Perry’s faults because it would help me evaluate those candidates further.
old Military sayings:
Ed54 (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 1:16PM EST (link)1. A unit only does those things well that the commander checks.
2. The maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters.
“If all men were just, there would be no need of valor.”
- Agesilaus
Oh yeah and not every candidate has been running for president for 6 years like Romney
tomatin Sunday, December 25th at 1:10PM EST (link)Just saying to me that’s a pretty bad sign for a so called great business man.
I think he has been running for president since birth
kyle8 (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 1:50PM EST (link)consider his family.
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
From Hot Air:
haners Saturday, December 24th at 11:43AM EST (link)Update VI: Some are asking if the requirements for petition signatures changed between 2008 and 2010. They did in 2010, but they appear to have gotten easier to collect, not more difficult. Instead of requiring a Social Security number for each signature, the law was changed from shall to may, only for the last four digits of the SSN.
Hey, look on the bright side....
clintonformccain Saturday, December 24th at 11:50AM EST (link)At least the Republican field has two candidates organized enough to manage getting on a primary ballot. I guess that’s saying something from the Keystone Kops nomination process we’ve been watching unfold. Honestly, at this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see Sharon Angle jump into the race and become the instant front-runner.
Hugh Hewitt is orgasmic right now
NickDeringer (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 11:56AM EST (link)This has the smell of “the GOP establishment rigging the game for Romney” all over it. Not accusing. Just sayin. The parakeet is gone and the cat has feathers all around his mouth. Just sayin’.
NickDeringer
I suggest that the Mitt Romney supporters...
Moe Lane (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:20PM EST (link)…note something about this thread: your arguments are not particularly persuading anybody who is not already a Romney/Paul supporter. And there are rather more of them, combined, than there are of you.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
Never was about persuasion..
Remington_Steele (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:51PM EST (link)Do you honestly think anyone is going to swing over to Romney now? Romney’s numbers haven’t budged for months. This whole contest has been about strategy. Romney is in this to divide and conquer and it sure seems like he has been more successful than not despite how many have been made angry in the process. He’ll have to figure out how to heal things later, if that’s even possible. Yet for now, he’s gotta be laughing at the incompetence of the other campaigns not doing due diligence to get on the ballots.
Huh? Sure they can. Think back to 2007:
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 1:25PM EST (link)http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html
Don’t look at the candidates — so few are shown. Just look at McCain’s numbers over time.
The time for persuasion ended
kinggold Saturday, December 24th at 1:34PM EST (link)when the GOP base was thoroughly conditioned by certain people (and you know exactly to whom I’m referring) that nominating Mitt Romney is an invalidation of absolutely everything they stood for.
Despite, of course, having been the Last Great Conservative Hope, touted by exactly the same people four years ago with a platform arguably more liberal than the one he espouses now.
No, kinggold, I actually *don't* know.
Moe Lane (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:42PM EST (link)By all means, name names.
Moe Lane
PS: And out of curiosity… if you don’t think that 75% of the GOP electorate can be persuaded to vote for Romney in the primaries, how do you expect him to win them?
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
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My (combined) wish list.
Sure I Supported Romney in 2008 BUT NOT Now
quill67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:54PM EST (link)I still get lots of emails from the Romney Campaign (I guess I donated to him or something in 2008). And I would do it again—IF he were running against John McCain. Also, at the time I did not realize how bad his health plan was in Mass.
Now I actually wonder if an independent woud be better than voting for Romney against Obama and wonder if there would be some way to prevent Obama from being reelected but keeping the Republican from getting enough electorial votes so that the election gets throw into the House.
Doesn't make sense
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 5:04PM EST (link)You’d vote for Romney to stop John McCain (and Fred Thompson and Mike Huckabee and Duncan Hunter etc) but not to stop Obama?
At some point, this sort of hate for the guy becomes flat out creepy.
Sure I Supported Romney in 2008 BUT NOT Now
quill67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:54PM EST (link)I still get lots of emails from the Romney Campaign (I guess I donated to him or something in 2008). And I would do it again—IF he were running against John McCain. Also, at the time I did not realize how bad his health plan was in Mass.
Now I actually wonder if an independent woud be better than voting for Romney against Obama and wonder if there would be some way to prevent Obama from being reelected but keeping the Republican from getting enough electorial votes so that the election gets throw into the House.
Thanks Quill
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 5:07PM EST (link)You are doing the right thing. The sooner we drive out of the party politicians like Mittens the sooner we can rebuild the party as a conservative organization.
Two peas in a pod, who would risk having Obama re-elected
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:10PM EST (link)rather than suck it up and vote for a Republican they may not like?
There You Go Again
quill67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:24PM EST (link)That’s the same slogan of John McCain.
Same thing said about Bob Dole.
And then the establishment said:
Don’t nominate Bush W.–he’s too conservative and he has too much of a Texas Twang.
Don’t nominate Reagan–he’s too conservative and he talks about CUTTING GOVERNMENT. He’s a RADICAL.
I understand you are afraid of losing. But just like in football, a quarterback who never throws an interception is not challenging the defense enough.
Not quite the same thing, quill67
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:37PM EST (link)You and heraklios are proposing putting us at risk of having Obama re-elected out of either (1) some misdirected sense of spite towards the Establishment or (2) you’re ticked off about Perry’s situation right now.
I may have greater preference towards a more Conservative candidate than Romney, but I’m not about to cut off my nose for the sake of spiting my own face, and seeing Obama re-elected in the process, just for the sake of being contrary and/or stubborn.
If it comes down to it and I have to suck it up and vote for someone I don’t like, I can and I will. It’s got nothing to do with being afraid of losing and everything to do with being determined to win against Obama.
Here is What I Believe Romney Will Do
quill67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 7:39PM EST (link)If Romney wins, I believe he will so what his website says he will do. He will quickly establish Federal aid for states to provide health care to unisured–Oh sure there will be lots of freedom for what the states can do— AT FIRST. Then as the years go by a Democrat will be elected again and will impose restrictions on how the aid may be spent and on how much providers may charge. This is what has happened in Mass. So I am simply making a reasonable projection.
So what is the difference between Obama and Romney long term?
Romney's already between the rock and the hard place
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 7:55PM EST (link)pertaining to socialized medicine and states’ rights, especially since Sebelius sent down her recent ruling to allow states to determine what is “acceptable health insurance”.
From the position of policy, pertaining to socialized medicine, there is no difference between them. And I’ve got questions in abundance about whether or not Romney actually has the will to repeal O-care, particularly after his statement of “keeping the good and getting rid of the bad”.
But where there is indeed a difference between the two, quill67, is that Romney won’t act as an unbridled socialist bent on a mission from Hades itself to “fundamentally transform America”. This much of the left’s agenda, we can put in check, at least for four years, if we get someone other than Obama elected into office.
If we can also get a stronger base of Conservatives in Congress for the next Presidential electoral term, that could give us some time and a voice to be reckoned with…to bring about some changes of our own.
if the salt loses its saltiness....
clowngirl (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 10:40AM EST (link)You’re making a point we should seriously consider quill67
It’s comforting to assume “Romney would be MUCH better than Obama” but a closer look definitely brings that into question.
And Romney’s liberal policies will come with Republican cover (unless he is rightfully resisted by a Republican Congress – but how much of a mess would that be?)
” We are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by man.”
Matthew 5:13
You believe Romney to be of the same caliber as Obama, then?
lineholder (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 12:44PM EST (link)You believe him to have so great a preference for socialism that he would deliberately and intentionally impose that on us, against the will of the people, against this nation’s history, against the Constitution? You believe that of him? I don’t. There are plenty of things that I don’t like and/or trust where Romney is concerned, but on this point, I do believe him to be a better choice for our nation’s future than Obama would be.
I would prefer a more Conservative candidate, much as any other Conservative would prefer it. But if some of our more Conservative candidates can’t get their act together in a way that earns and gains the confidence of the electorate…what we would prefer will come to naught.
I’m still hoping that they will yet get their priorities straight and use their time wisely to this end, but whether or not they will succeed in doing so remains to be seen.
As to being salt of the earth, we have to make the best possible choice within the context of the options open to us. If some of the more Conservative candidates succeed, then consideration of Romney is a mute point. It is only if they fail that we have to look at the context of our options from a different viewpoint.
In the event that this occurs, can you say that it would be right for us to take a stand on the basis of principle alone without considering the impact our actions might have on future generations? Can you say that it is right for us to condemn them to a life of pure socialism? Because that’s exactly what the reality will become if Obama wins.
What I think is we need better than Romney
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:23AM EST (link)and to strongly support the candidates in the race who can beat Romney and potentially beat Obama – and stop arguing so sharply only for our #1 choice or being so critical of the field in general.
The question of whether Romney is the nominee I don’t think he would ever be President. Just one example as to why. Romney recently completely flip flopped on whether we should have ever gone into Iraq.
Aside from the fact that it’s disgusting he 180′d out of the blue and threw Bush and basically his whole party under the bus – politically this is a totally stupid move.
If you’re a voter never have gone into Iraq and it was a total mistake — who are you going to vote for: the guy who opposed going into Iraq at the start and was granted points for political courage for being an early voice of opposition, or the guy who doesn’t decide it was a mistake to invade Iraq until after we’ve left?
And if you supported the Iraq war and want a Commander in Chief who doesn’t make decisions blatantly based on political expediency – who would you have to vote for?
The voting hasn’t even started yet. We shouldn’t anywhere close to the mindset of settling for Romney.
Romney didn't flip flop on Iraq, but rather gave the obvious answer to stupid hypothetical question.
teme Monday, December 26th at 10:22AM EST (link)Of course USA wouldn’t gone in if there was no sign of Iraq having any WMD programs, if they would have been given some information that there was no WMDs. If USA knew what the know now, of course USA wouldn’t have gone to Iraq, but it would have been better for him not to answer in that kind hypothetical “what if we had 100% correct information giving crystal ball” type of question. Of course he should have refused to answer a stupid hypothetical question.
TODD: …whether if you knew everything then that you know now, that maybe the war would have gone differently or maybe history will judge this war badly. Is that your sense on this?
“Well, if we knew at the time of our entry into Iraq that there were no weapons of mass destruction — if somehow we had been given that information, why, obviously we would not have gone in,” Romney said.
“You don’t think we would have gone in?” asked MSNBC’s Chuck Todd.
“Well, of course not,” Romney answered. “The president went in based upon intelligence that they had weapons of mass destruction. Had he known that that was not the case, the U.N. would not have put forward resolutions authorizing this type of action. The president would not have been pursuing that course.”
I wouldn't say that's the obvious answer
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:24AM EST (link)My recollection of Bush’s speech detailing the reasons to invade Iraq right before our troops went in doesn’t include any mentions of Saddam having WMDs. I can double check that if you want, but it certainly wasn’t the main reason given.
It’s the Democrats who promote the idea that supposed WMDs were the only reason to invade Iraq and not finding what was expected proves it was a mistake to go in. Romney is falling in with that whole line of thinking.
Your point is well taken as to how Romney could have handled it better by pointing out that President Bush was backed by the UN and that.
But I think as a general practice a candidate should refuse to answer hypotheticals and Romney should know better.
If there hadn’t been a perception (among the intelligence agencies of many countries, not just the US) that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction — it is impossible to say exactly how that would’ve influenced the situation. Quite likely what you are saying it true — even though there were other reasons Saddam Hussein was seen as a serious threat, the level of concern about him may not have risen to a level that brought about international support for an invasion.
Perhaps I was hasty in saying Romney “flip flopped” on this — will have to look further into it, but he’s put himself in a very weak position regardless and isn’t defending the decision to invade Iraq very well at all.
both of those observations
Ed54 (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 1:20PM EST (link)apply to the entire campaign so far, not just to this thread.
“If all men were just, there would be no need of valor.”
- Agesilaus
I will not be voting
Cargosquid (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:21PM EST (link)for either candidate in the Primary.
I refuse to vote for either one and will not be held even partially responsible for getting them the nomination.
I am ashamed of our candidates, especially Perry and Gingrich. They KNEW what had to be done in my state. A SWING STATE.
Screw. Them. ALL.
Cargosquid - I hope you will reconsider...
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:30PM EST (link)The down-ticket races still matter. Just don’t vote for either of the buffoons on the top of “our side”.
I am very surprised that the Gingrich and Perry campaigns did not do better at this. The rules are clear and have not changed, so .. ignorance is certainly no excuse.
(That is one reason why I’ve said and continue to maintain that something stinks here… we have two very experienced campaigners, they know that the rules must be followed, and they both submitted enough signatures to meet the requirements. Does not add up, eh?)
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
I'm still voting
Cargosquid (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:29PM EST (link)for the down ticket.
Just not for the two idiots that were actually more competent than the other freaking idiots.
I want those that failed to challenge those disqualifications. And I want all the candidates to be verified.
Thank you, Cargosquid, and a happy Christmas to you and yours.
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:02PM EST (link)(end transmission)
——
Caveat Suffragator
one thing that hasn't been said
WA_Cowboy (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:42PM EST (link)is that Perry and Newts teams each had more than 11k signatures turned in — which means that roughly 10% of their signatures were thrown out.
Is there really that high of a rate of signature fraud? Is it common in a petition drive to have one out of every 10 signatures thrown out? Especially when they have to be notarized?
And that 6 out of 8 failed to qualify? I could see incompetence as being one or two out of eight — but 75% of the current field?
That’s what has the scent of fish to me.
“If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there’d be a shortage of sand.” – Milton Friedman
They did not submit enough
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 4:04PM EST (link)Some signatures are always invalid. Even if 90% were valid, both Perry and Gingrich would have failed. You need to top 15,000 to be safe. Those are the rules.
wingnut- That is simply not true
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 4:38PM EST (link)You are required to submit 10,000. What if someone doing the collecting, and counting, checked and verified every single signature, as they were being gathered. A candidate could submit exactly 10,000 signatures and meet the requirement. The only thing the 15,000 number does is insure that your signatures will not even be looked at. As I said elsewhere, both Perry and Newt could have had someone, anyone, just keep signing names and addresses, from the phone book for example, and their signatures would never have been examined. Is it fair to be honest, and then punished for that honesty?
Of all states....
chicagoray45 Saturday, December 24th at 12:42PM EST (link)I lived in Charlottesville in the 80′s and went to UVA there as well, and boy has a lot changed since those days. I LOVED living in Virginia and growing up in those years there learning all there is to know about our government and history, and from what I hear from old friends and professors like Larry Sabato is the state is now swinging back red after years of liberalism infected IT just as bad as DC, but this doesn’t bode well
And, Newt is right, as One can only imagine the paperwork hoops and loops one has to delve through to be a candidate nowadays when libs cry over Voter ID’s but don’t give a crud about this BS, where one lousy sheet of paper filled out wrong could derail a campaign is absolute madness.
Especially when 4 years ago somehow a guy born in Kenya who’s been committing ID Fraud all his adult life with a out of whack SSA # which has no connection TO HIM without a birth certificate was elected president!!
A guy who’s still hiding his college records and theses and the likes and will be the only presidential library with a Top Secret no visit wing where all his paperwork will be enclosed in a Fort Knox like safe for guarding evermore.
Chicago Ray, birthers aren't allowed here. [nt]
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:08PM EST (link).
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Indeed, they are not. [nt]
Moe Lane (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:13PM EST (link)NT
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
oh wow
bdirks Saturday, December 24th at 2:30PM EST (link)You went to UVA? How in the world did you get in?
I thought that personal insults were also against the rules.
deVere Saturday, December 24th at 7:07PM EST (link)Or does it just depend on who is getting insulted?
more like a proportional response
bdirks Saturday, December 24th at 9:39PM EST (link)Spouting off birther nonsense is an insult to all. I was simply responding in kind. In this is case, he also cheapened and diminished the diploma of anyone who graduated from UVA, so I was sticking up for them by claiming that his admission must have been a fluke.
The best way to honor the management request to not discuss the subject of Obama's origins and qualifications ...
deVere Saturday, December 24th at 10:20PM EST (link)is simply to not discuss it, either pro or con. The previous poster erred in not reading the local rules and deserved to be cautioned by management, but not to be personally insulted by another poster.
You miight also think that Mr. Trump has diminished the value of a Wharton diploma, and I have done the same to Columbia, but that would just be a pejorative personal opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion, but not your lapse in civility. Is the managment here serious when they say they don’t want posters insulting each other?
Most affected will be the Republican nominee in the Federal election.
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:45PM EST (link)Even if Romney wins VA and wins the Republicam nomination, he (and Republicans) will have no momentum in the critical swing-state of Virginia.
And if Perry or Gingrich are not on the ballot in the primary (IMHO rules are rules), but either gets the nomination, this still greatly impacts their Virginia campaign for the federal election.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
down ballot
bdirks Saturday, December 24th at 2:37PM EST (link)Kaine v. Allen will approach $100 million in total spending. Probably the fiercest senate election in the country in 2012. Literally ground zero for the proxy war between the DNC and RNC.
Needless to say, Virginia will be a well fought contest in 2012.
Good point, bdirks [nt]
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:18PM EST (link)…
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Romney is likely to pick McDonnell as VP
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 4:08PM EST (link)The word is that the incumbent (and popular) governor of VA will be Romney’s VP, and that will help carry VA. Romney’s biggest problem will be winning PA. PA is likely to be in the same position as Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 – the deciding state.
wingnut- I'm not so certain of that
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 4:29PM EST (link)As Moe pointed out in the diary, this whole debacle in VA, with all it’s bad optics, will likely kill a McDonnell chance at a VP slot. It may, and should, also kill Lt. Gov. Bill Bollings hopes of beating Atty Gen. Ken Cucinelli for the Gov. seat in 2013. What you, and I, and the nation playing out right in front of your eyes is the old guard insider politics that VA has been rumored to have been playing for years and years. This is exactly the kind of antics the woken up conservative voters have been screaming about for the last few years. The next in line mentality. McCain should have been the very last next in line candidate ever to grace the R nomination. I truly believe that this is going to backfire really big time. There are still many voters who support other candidates rather than Romney and Paul who will feel disenfrancised. What a perfect commercial for disenfranchisement the DNC now has.
Very odd phraseology
trvalletta Saturday, December 24th at 12:49PM EST (link)Please explain the parenthesis: (and ones that won’t contain the word ‘Mormon’ anywhere in their description, by the way), Why would the word ‘Mormon’ need to appear anywhere in any description? What are you alluding to? Do you have a problem, Moe, with Mormons? I guess I just do not know what your point is. It does sound odd, however, to throw in the point about Mormons. Are you suggesting a Mormon conspiracy????
Do some oppo research in your next incarnation, buddy.
Moe Lane (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:57PM EST (link)I’ve been throwing people off of this site for hating Mormons for years.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
I never had nuthing against Mormons..
snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, December 27th at 1:44AM EST (link)But I sure notice them running around screaming ” Discrimination ”
And I sure hate that. and anti-Mormon… and that annoys me.
They begin to sound like a minority or a special needs group.
Oh.. special INTEREST group..
So, I am starting to get the picture… is it a wonder?
Very odd phraseology
trvalletta Saturday, December 24th at 12:50PM EST (link)I do not understand what Moe is alluding to in his parenthesis concerning Mormons. Why should reference be made to Mormons?
No, it's not a VAGOP meltdown, it's a Rick Perry/Newt Gingrich Meltdown
crosley (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 12:51PM EST (link)What rules have changed in Virginia? These same rules have been in place for nearly a decade? Even Dennis Kuicinich and Alan Keyes were able to qualify for the Virginia ballot when they ran for President.
It’s clear that Rick Perry and his campaign are too incompetent to run for President. His candidacy is over, even with all of his money his campaign was too disorganized to even get his name to appear on the ballot of an important state. Boy, I’m sure his campaign would really give Obama a run for their money! Watch donors and supporters jump ship like rats.
Newt Gingrich actually LIVES in Virginia! His campaign has been revealed as nothing more than a glorified book tour that caught fire because we have so many fools in the GOP.
But just keep spinning, it’s all the Evil Establishment’s fault that multi-million dollar campaigns can’t get enough signatures.
"What rules have changed in Virginia?"
deVere Saturday, December 24th at 3:17PM EST (link)Unlike past years they are electornically cross-checking addresses to disqualify signatures.
Virginia is the new Florida
lizzie Saturday, December 24th at 1:11PM EST (link)I have no dog in this hunt, but think any state with NO write-in option, especially when it is an open primary, needs to rethink their defiinition of “democracy”.
Since this IS Virginia, birthplace of Washington, Jefferson, and Madison, Florida now looks good in comparison.
No way would I ever give even the last four digits of my SSN to anyone collecting ballot access signatures. I have signed ballot access petitions in New York, and all they needed was my signature and street address that matched my voter’s registration.
Denial of write-in vote option is an embarrassment for Virginia.
Ron Paul will win Virginia, just what the GOP deserves – infiltration of the anti-war left that spent 35 years destroying the Democratic Party. Your turn, GOP!
FL was strange in 2008
porkandcheese Saturday, December 24th at 1:32PM EST (link)Charlie Crist and Robert Wexler introduced a voting amendment that disqualified FL’s primary votes (paper ballots, but early primary), guaranteeing that a state with many delegates that would have gone for Hillary at a crucial stage in the primary would be disqualified. Neither Crist nor Wexler hold elected office now.
Fascinating observation porkandcheese
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:29PM EST (link)Former Gov. Charlie Crist appointed Donald Palmer as his Director, Division of Elections. When Crist was out as Gov., so was Donald Palmer. That was right on time for the then newly elected Gov. Bob McDonnell to appoint him as the Secretary of VA State Board of Elections. We also have no write in options.
What Happened to Perry's Resources - $?
btpull Saturday, December 24th at 1:17PM EST (link)Bachmann, Santorum, and the other second tier candidates have to commit so much of their $ to be competitive in Iowa they simply do not have enough funds to run a multi-front effective campaign. Gingrich’s campaign in notoriously unorganized; remember most of his staff quite earlier this year.
So what is Perry’s problem? Is he running out of money or is he running a bad campaign? Not a good sign for his campaign either way.
Freddoso weighs in
porkandcheese Saturday, December 24th at 1:26PM EST (link)In “Perry’s VA Ballot Hopes Were DOA” he says:
The source (Romney campaign) said the Virginia debacle was an “epic failure” on Perry’s behalf, and the candidate’s failure to get on the ballot showed a total lack of organization and incompetence, which is not a trait voters should accept from a presidential candidate.
It is possible that Perry, who announced his campaign in August, never received a copy of the email the State Board of Elections sent out clearly stating the rules. Furthermore, Perry would have had to begin collecting signatures almost immediately after announcing to collect as many signatures as Romney, who began collecting signatures in Virginia on August 1.
Candidates don't stand in a war-ration line to get their weekly allotment of signatures.
ayrnieu Saturday, December 24th at 1:43PM EST (link)So “candidate A had this much time, candidate B had that much time” comparisons just don’t fly. What time dictates (or allows) are the methods by which signatures are collected.
Apparently it was more than just getting signatures
porkandcheese Saturday, December 24th at 2:07PM EST (link)They had to be on double-sided printed papers with only “properly recognized notaries” meaning not all notaries were equal after the fact. That’s odd.
Another headache for the pile...
snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, December 27th at 1:35AM EST (link)I’m uncertain the relevance… but a Notary is a Notary.
The problem here is one of organization, funds, manpower and established presence
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:09PM EST (link)While a good argument can be made that there should be some minimum level of all of those things is necessary to win the Presidency in this day and age, it is also the case that Virginia’s laws take away this discretion from the primary voters, effectively presenting barriers to entry for more emergent and populist campaigns. It is also worth asking why Virginia’s laws are so restrictive, where other states are not: after all, most of the candidates managed to qualify in Iowa and the other states. Certainly, if most of the mainstream candidates for the Presidency (including the current front-runner) are being locked out in Virginia but not in other states, it would seem to indicate a problem, yes?
Just more proof that “democracy” entails very little of what people actually desire, and another example of our fine, fine government at work doing the things that people want *rolls eyes*
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
How can it be both an "epic failure" and DOA?
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:49PM EST (link)Epic failure implies he should have been on the ballot if the campaign was on top of things. DOA implies no matter what the campaign did, it was extremely unlikely Perry would get on the VA ballot.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Kowalski
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:15PM EST (link)My commentary is on the headline for the article and the article’s contents, not Pork and Cheese’s post.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Mitt "I'm-lucky-if-I-get-above-the-25%-mark" Romney
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:54PM EST (link)needs to keep his mouth shut right now. Sure, voters are somewhat upset about the situation. Sure, they may be more than a little irritated with Perry and Gingrich about not getting on the ballot.
But if Romney and/or his team thinks rubbing salt in open wounds of Conservatives is a smart thing to do, then they’re displaying as much if not more incompetence than they claim their opponents have displayed.
Then again, it might serve the purpose of getting Conservatives in a true fighting mood, rather than just upset…so, go ahead, Romney, make our day!!!
555-Lineholder!
romansdaughter Saturday, December 24th at 2:03PM EST (link)nt
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
All Perry needed to do to get the signatures
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 2:01PM EST (link)was to get a tiny fraction of what he has spent in ads, traveling, polls and his army of “advisors” and pay a signature gathering company. In a couple of weeks they’d have the signatures and this would never be a problem. It’d cost him peanuts, pocket money.
It’s astounding how a professional campaign screws this up.
What was the difference between VA
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:14PM EST (link)and the other states? Perry, Gingrich, Bachmann et al seem to have had no trouble qualifying in the other states, whereas VA presented problems for all but the most established of campaigns.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
First state that forced them to
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 2:37PM EST (link)do something. You have states like Florida where the party leaders decide who’s going to appear on ballot based on their whims – for example, they left Buddy Roemer out -, states like New Hampshire with lenient ballot access rules – there will be 30 names on the ballot for the republican presidential nomination, states where all you need to do is to pay a fee and states like Virginia that have laws that try to keep candidates without serious support off the ballot.
The next deadline is DC – they need a petition with 1% of the GOP voters there. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them fail again. Well, maybe not after this debacle.
Let the voters decide who warrants as a serious candidate
elayman Saturday, December 24th at 5:09PM EST (link)Yes rules are rules and dark horse candidates that pull ahead of the establishment pack early are traditionally winnowed out in any case by the time the stricter ballot states roll around. The nomination contest this year simply happens to stand as one of the most topsy-turvy for the Republicans in the primary-nominating era and Exhibit A why attempting to make those determinations up front can be a major disservice to the voters and a democratic system. in general
.
It would appear that Virginia also places Candidates on the ballot based on whim as well..
snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, December 27th at 1:39AM EST (link)And they just move the goal post this way or that to make sure everything’s jake.
They'd better get out the tractor, snowshooze...
acat (Diary) Tuesday, December 27th at 1:54AM EST (link)Things ain’t jake…
(looks to me like the maintenance guy got into the southern comfort a bit and dragged the outdoor basketball hoops onto the football field…)
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
Perry
greyeagle Saturday, December 24th at 10:39PM EST (link)turned in nearly 12,000 signatures. However, apparently a lot were tossed putting him below 10,000. That is too many, so someone screwed up or signatures were tossed in error.
How can it be both DOA (no chance) anan "fa
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:44PM EST (link)How
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
Disregard.
SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 1:45PM EST (link)NT
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
No one can say this field is serious or credible
Whacker77 Saturday, December 24th at 2:02PM EST (link)The other day I was taken to task by many for saying any of the people who chose not to run would be lapping this sorry field. Seems to me the hapless effort put forth by some of our “frontrunners” to gain ballot access in VA confirms that notion.
Seriously, can anyone imagine the campaigns of Jeb, Christie, Daniels, Jindal, or Barbour not qualifying for the VA ballot? Of course, not. Had they run – and they didn’t – they would have made sure they had the organization to compete and follow the rules.
I hope this meltdown will dispense with the notion our field of candidates/book tours is strong or credible. Michelle Bachmann chided Newt by saying she was a serious candidate for president, yet she’s not on the ballot. Newt says he’s in the mold of JP II, Reagan, and Thatcher, but he flopped. Did Santorum – supposedly surging in Iowa – even make an effort?
I think this proves we’re going to be stuck with Romney. He’s the only guy who brought his A game to the campaign. Perry didn’t even follow all of the rules when he turned his list of signatures. Somehow, we’re about to get our second straight unwanted candidate.
We need a brokered convention.
Why didn't they run?
boonerdan (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:31PM EST (link)Please enlighten us with “why” those other candidates didn’t run? They were either scared of Obama v2.0, or they are part of the GOP Establishment and are taking orders.
The whole thing is a joke and getting more laughable every day. Merry Christmas President Obama! The GOP is even gift wrapping it for you now.
I think they had different reasons
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 5:43PM EST (link)– Barbour had back surgery a week before declaring that he would not be a candidate. I guess his weight caught up with him.
– Jindal was a flop in his first national TV appearance. I guess he decided that 2012 is too early for him.
– Jeb has the wrong last name to be running so soon after W.
– Christie told us he did not feel qualified being a first term governor and all, and was probably being truthful.
– Daniels probably values his relationship with his wife more than running for President. And the fact that he took her back on bended knee is why Rush Limbaugh was down on him from the beginning. That episode shows he is not an Alpha-Dog, and only Alphas qualify for the Presidency.
– I’m sure all of them fear Obama as well – and rightfully so. Obama will have billions of dollars, the total support of the Media, a very skillful party machine, the powers of incumbency, near total support from Wall Street, and a large Dependent class and Elite class who will vote for him out of personal economic interest. He also has the young, and is organizing them into a powerful propaganda machine to sway the votes of family members. Anyone who underestimates Obama is a fool.
Bad news and really bad news.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:29PM EST (link)All the candidates besides Romney & Paul screwed up. There’s no excuse for not getting onto the ballot. Sure, the process is more difficult than in other states, and moving the election up a month didn’t help either. But that’s no excuse for not getting the job done.
But this leaves the Virginia GOP in a bit of a bind. Some of Romney’s people in VA are involved in certifying the signatures. Right or wrong, if Romney wins it’ll smell like an inside job. Nothing they could say about how it was fair will change that. That’s the bad news.
If Paul wins, then Virginia Republicans have just nominated an old, white, anti-semite, racist, terrorist-dictator apologist, troofer. If you think the democrats won’t use that against us, you’re as crazy as he is. The fact that it’s an open Primary; I wouldn’t be surprised if a bunch of Democrats made sure it happened. This is the really bad news.
I see no positive outcome here. Yes, states get to make the rules any way they want to. That doesn’t mean they’re immune from unintended consequences.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Indeed.
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:45PM EST (link)In all honesty, however, I think that Gingrich suffers from similar imaging problems, and both Romney and Perry from less terrible, but still not great, imagery surrounding their campaigns. I doubt very much that racism will get much play in an election that will be about the economy: I doubt that drugs, freedom and imperialism (Paul’s pet topics) will, either, but I believe that the scandal potential of either Paul or Gingrich’s pasts will blow over like the Jeremiah Wright scandal did for Obama.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Those are ridiculously cheep shots
urbanelephants Saturday, December 24th at 2:49PM EST (link)First. If the all the candidates had shown up with 15,000 signatures, and 600 per CD, it wouldn’t matter how many Romney people were verifying since the rules give you a free pass into the primary.
Second. Like there aren’t any Gingrich or Perry supporters in the process. Ridiculous really to make it out be like the Romney people somehow messed up this for Gingrich and Perry.
Third. You do realize Romney is old an white also right? Apparently his dyed hair bedazzled you into forgetting he is 64.
Forth. There is no evidence to support your conspiracy that Democrats would rush to vote in a Republican primary. People have been making this claim since I was attending high school in Virginia. I’m sure it has been going on longer than that. In any case only kooks think that.
Lol....Cheep
urbanelephants Saturday, December 24th at 2:54PM EST (link)LOL… Cheep.
Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:09PM EST (link)to go along with your spelling problem.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
nighttwister, you're right: moving VA's primary up was done to have this outcome
circlegranch Saturday, December 24th at 4:21PM EST (link)they, and the other states that caved in to the pressure by the RNC to go with the no huddle offense did so in hopes this exact type of thing would occur….throw everybody off course (except Romney) and they pulled it off. The novices on the national stage dropped the ball and so now we have our so-called Heir Apparent a step closer.
No matter the tricks; no matter the ploys, one thing they cannot accomplish by hook or crook: they can’t get their guy above 20% or so. If we won’t bow, they’ll break us.
No wonder Trump is laying the groundwork for an Independent run.
I think this is further indication
urbanelephants Saturday, December 24th at 2:41PM EST (link)Perry and Gingrich aren’t ready to be on the national stage. The decisions on who you hire to manage day to day operations are just as important as your platform. Both have just demonstrated they have failed miserably making those hires.
You don’t have to live Romney or Paul but I’m far more impressed with the fact both of their campaigns actually stepped up and got the basics done. As someone who has run petition operations in PA, VA, NY and TX to read people on here bemoan the requirements in Virginia really shows how little the understand about how pathetic this display of organization it really is. In NY candidates who don’t get the vote of 25% of the state committee will need to collect 50,000 signatures and 1,000 from each congressional district. And these two “top-tier” candidates couldn’t manage 15,000 and 400 in the 12th most populous state?
No one should be advocating their inclusion because they so both obviously do not deserve it.
We're still not voting from Romney no matter how incompetent you think everyone else's campaign is.
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 3:47PM EST (link)Just saying….Enjoy Willard’s concession speech
Romney and Paul had their lists from 2008
lizzie Saturday, December 24th at 4:03PM EST (link)and, urbanelephant, please stop making the comparison between Virginia and New York.
In New York, you do NOT have to supply the last four digits of your SSN with your signature and home address;
you do NOT have to have the special two sided forms
or have the forms notarized –
just NOT the same at all.
and New York still allows for write-in votes.
Sounds like someone is whining...
urbanelephants Saturday, December 24th at 9:20PM EST (link)About how much more difficult it would be to pad the the petitions.
If you are organized I see no reason a registered voter wouldn’t know their own SSN and home address. (BTW if everyone has to use it why would it be a special form?)
As for having the forms notarized well that seems easy enough to do. Just requires what a 11 people who are notaries to help out?
Try collecting names of Republicans in NYC where even the best list money could buy, that being Mayor Mike’s 100 million dollar mayoral campaign, still had bad data in it at 30% or worse depending on where you need to to collect signatures. And that was assuming you could even get into a building to collect signatures. Or not being thrown out shortly after you started because some cracky liberal did call the doorman to complain.
I’d take collect in Virginia over NY every day of the week.
the "national stage" Perry isn't ready for is the one with questionable ethics, insider rules, moving the goal posts, etc
circlegranch Tuesday, December 27th at 7:32AM EST (link)We STILL have nothing definitive about what happened in VA other than Mitt has used it to swat back those he fears the most and apparently Newt admits today he was in error (according to ‘Morning Joe’-MSNBC). Perry has released nothing that I’ve found. Perhaps it will be easier to just give up and let it slide. That could well be the approach of both Newt and Perry; just give up because the system is so foul and so ingrained its impossible to hack through. Let Mitt have his turn and subsequently, let the chips fall where they may.
There have been comparisons made here to similar situations in FL and lest we forget, one of the most dramatic displays of strong-arming by the establishment GOP occurred in ’10 when Lisa Murkowski refused to take the will of the people as the final answer. If memory serves correctly, a judge that her father had appointed ruled that write-in votes were acceptable and Murkowski’s name didn’t have to be spelled correctly. We have that as a precedent to know that if it were the grassroots candidates in the clear in VA and the hand-picked, pre-ordained candidate in trouble, rules would change; emergency hearings held and a way would be found. Unfortunately, Mr. Romney will always be viewed by many in that 80% group that doesn’t support him as the nominee as being indirectly involved in this VAGOP fiasco. He’s playing Obama’s game (arrogance of non-transparency) now of claiming he won’t reveal his tax returns or identities of his campaign bundlers. As long as he holds the grassroots voter at arm’s length, he has no chance of embracing them.
Another important example was in the U.S. Senate race in Colorado in 2010. The ruling class of the GOP was so infuriated that the grassroots candidate beat out the establishment candidate that had been quietly urged to run by John McCain (and has a prominent D.C. lobbyist for a brother-in-law) that GOP leaders in the state, including elected officials, refused to endorse Ken Buck. Apparently following their lead, about 100,000 Republican voters decided their patriotic calling was to allow Democrat Michael Bennet win, which of course, he did. Bennet, hand-picked himself, by Obama, to replace Ken Salazar when he got tapped for Secy of the Interior, is a big star these days in the Democrat Party and he votes consistently in lockstep with the President’s wishes. “It was wortht it because we showed those dastardly tea partiers!”, thus sayeth the Establishment.
The diary posted here asking what Virginian’s had done to help Rick Perry get on this ballot is a valid question. The folly, however, is in suggesting one can change the system by simply ‘getting involved’. The 2010 grassroots tea party movement infiltrated the GOP in record numbers and because of their effort, there were stunning victories for ‘outsider’ types such as Rick Perry claims himself to be (and I would agree with his self-definition). The establishment GOP, whether in small county organizations or on the bigger stages, has a very intricate and exclusive inner circle. When we hear the media talk about infighting in the GOP, especially in Congress, that is the product of grassroots newbies fighting back and infiltrating the hallowed spaces occupied by the establishment. We call it gridlock, we call it all sorts of names, but its the fruit of the grassroots movement. Its the voice of We, the People, pushing back at the John McCain’s, Lisa Murkowski’s and Richard Lugar’s, saying ‘Enough! You’ve gotten us into these messes and we’re here to try it another way.’
Someone here described the situation well in saying the Big Tent of the GOP is not really more than a phone booth and in many counties, that is indeed the case. New ideas and newcomers are excluded; those that have long histories of big donations write the rules and regulations. Every state has its inner circle of control, so by suggesting that if people simply ‘get involved’ they can change the system is rather naive to those of us that have observed first-hand the clutched jaws of power even within small towns and counties. Yes, in most states it is relatively easy to become a precinct leader but those leaders answer to division or district leaders and layers of chairmen above that. Precinct leaders are usually welcomed in because theirs are the shoes worn out pounding the pavement in general elections—rounding up support for the nominees picked by the layers of leadership above them.
What we are seeing today happening with the ramming of Mitt Romney to the nomination is pay-back in big-time fashion. Sen. Richard Lugar summed it up well a few days ago when he blamed the tea party movement (and the candidates they’ve recruited and supported) for the GOP not controlling the Senate. The fact is, there are folks in the GOP that, based on their actions, must prefer having Harry Reid continue in his job because when it was time to get behind Sharon Angle in full force, the “Force” was not with her. It wasn’t there for Ken Buck in Colorado and it wasn’t there in Alaska for Joe Miller. We are witnessing the smack-down of the tea party and the not-so-subtle reminder from the career politicians in the ruling class of the GOP that they, and they alone, will pick candidates and they will exercise whatever means necessary to get those candidates the nominations.
Sen. Lugar, et al, won’t admit today that if the people running the GOP had decided back in 2010 that they would work tirelessly and donate the max and help fundraise for those Senate candidates that lost to Democrats, we might well not have had ObamaCare pass. Joe Miller and Ken Buck absolutely would not have voted in favor of it (Murkowski doesn’t have a stellar conservative record so she is not a ‘lock’ in terms of confidence she’ll vote conservative.). Alot of the gridlock wouldn’t be happening and we would have seen elected officials hold the line on spending. Progress would have been underway to roll back some of the messes we’re in today.
Yes, perhaps Rick Perry isn’t ready for the national stage as it exists today and he should take that as a high compliment. Take a look at approval ratings for Congress, the President, the Attorney General and the whole lot of them and then ask yourself if this so–called ‘national stage’ is really something worth preserving. Rather, perhaps we should hold out suspicion for those that ensure its continuation.
Good post Circlegranch!
romansdaughter Tuesday, December 27th at 8:14AM EST (link)Exactly I thought that was what this election process was all about taking a wrecking ball to DC and shrinking big government. Not just tinkering around the edges or just compromising with the Dems. I would take Perry any day who definitely doesn’t think too highly of the DC crowd and wants to clean that up.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
More confirmation
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 2:47PM EST (link)that “none of the above” should be a serious option in the primaries…
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Something should be done
Common_Cents (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:26PM EST (link)Aren’t the rules and the goal to basically to make sure we have serious candidates?
Nobody will deny Perry and Gingrich are serious candidates. The only loser here is the voters.
Step up and fix this VA.
Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from,
behind, the Back Nine.Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.
you are so right.
cheetah2 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:43PM EST (link)The voters of VA are the real losers here, being limited to what many would consider to be 2 bad choices. I just hope this can be fixed so at least the candidates who actually filed to be in the primary can participate. At the bare minimum, they should allow write ins. My goodness, writing in a candidate ought to be a basic right of any voter.
I’m a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order, just like Mike Pence.
@cheetah222
Write-in voting is allowed in the general
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 3:52PM EST (link)Not in the primary process. This has actually been litigated in the courts.
There is no right whatsoever to even vote in primaries, let alone to write in a candidate. I’m not opposed to allowing write-in votes in primaries… as long as each party pays its own primary.
5^5
kowalski (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:03PM EST (link)When I heard about it this morning I couldn’t believe it. I still can’t believe it. It’s stupid. It’s an absurd result. Don’t know what to blame but when a system like Virginia GOPs can produce an absurd result like this, something’s wrong.
But first, before we change anything, we have to find out what went wrong. 10,000 signatures with a minimum of 400 from each of 11 districts doesn’t sound insurmountable to me and yet…apparently the Gingrich campaign couldn’t find the werewithal.
I really find it all very hard to believe they’d screw up the procedural stuff this badly. Doesn’t Gingrich know the rules?
Defend Liberty — Join the NRA | Live in Massachusetts? Join GOAL.
Of course Gingrich doesn't know the law
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 4:10PM EST (link)He was promising a vigorous write-in campaign after this… when the law doesn’t allow write-in votes in the primary. If he didn’t bother to check the election law after this debacle…
Running for President is not a book tour. It’s a very serious business and serious candidates spend years preparing for it. Many here seem oblivious to this fact.
What is VA going to say for itself if...GOD forid the not Romney vote goes to Paul and he wins VA?
AceInTX (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 3:29PM EST (link)Not likely you say?
Maybe not…but it would serve them right!
Not so fast Ace
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:12PM EST (link)There is a very distinct possibility of Ron Paul winning the VA primary. VA is one of the states his C4L organization has been very active and vocal. They have been recruiting voters since shortly after his failed 08 presidential bid, mostly at every college/university in the state. Paul gets the most of the disaffected Democrat votes, and northern virginia is heavily infiltrated by the Democrats. The statewide Tea Party groups are rabidly non-partisan, and make sure that Democrats are all invited to their events. There is no such thing as any conservative Tea Parties here that I know of.
He should get the most "disaffected Democrats"
ohiohistorian (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:04PM EST (link)After all, Paul is the closest Republican to the Democrats in terms of foreign policy. And he is the closest for legalization of dope. He wants to get rid of the bulk of military funding. All of these ring true with Democrats. Where they will part ways is when they realize that Paul wants to get rid of their hallowed Federal Reserve, and that he is not exactly in favor of welfare spending.
So good luck with the “disaffected Democrats”. What do you mean by no conservative Tea Parties? If they are not conservatives, and are both Republicans and Democrats, then what DO they stand for?
““Liberals tend to put the onus of your success on society and conservatives on you and your family.”
—Dennis Prager
Most people, of all types have no clue what the Federal Reserve does, or what the impact
Dave_A (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 3:45AM EST (link)of getting rid of it would be….
Nor the history of who traditionally opposes it (Democrats), and who fought for it’s creation (Republicans)….
Ron Paul ‘succeeds’ due to the massive ignorance of economics on the part of the voting population – especially in his preferred demographic (college kids)….
If people were informed on this subject, they’d realize Ron’s monetary policy & calls for ‘sound’ money (aka deflation) would sink America faster than the worst of liberal ideas….
Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page
'Course maybe...
kowalski (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:11PM EST (link)Maybe the obvious answer is the best one:
Gingrich didn’t make it through the process in Virginia because his team dropped the ball. It looks a lot like that to me.
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Dropped the ball, kicked it under the bleachers, ...
Samsara (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:15PM EST (link)Dropped the ball, kicked it under the bleachers, can’t find it.
From Fox:
The Gingrich campaign responded that “only a failed system” would disqualify Gingrich and other candidates. It said Gingrich would pursue an aggressive write-in campaign, although state law prohibits write-ins on primary ballots.
“Voters deserve the right to vote for any top contender, especially leading candidates,” Gingrich campaign director Michael Krull said in a statement. “We will work with the Republican Party of Virginia to pursue an aggressive write-in campaign to make sure that all the voters of Virginia are able to vote for the candidate of their choice.”
However, state law says this about primary write-in campaigns: “No write-in shall be permitted on ballots in primary elections.”
“Virginia code prohibits write-ins in primaries. He can’t do it,” said Carl Tobias, a law professor at University of Richmond.
It's hard to fathom WHY though
kowalski (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:18PM EST (link)I mean, someone at Gingrich HQ in Virginia should have some kind of accurate count that they’re telling the Boss through their Blackberry, and it should be accurate if their campaign was running just to get on the ballot in such a slam-dunk state as their “adopted home”.
It’s hard to understand how the Gingrich Goats didn’t get roped this time around except sheer goat-roaping incompetence. Now incompetence can be deliberate or accidental, we’ve all heard the For the Want of Nail story…
But Virginia? Not even getting on the ballot? Because he didn’t have the signatures? Newt Gingrich? And someone expects me to believe this was anything other than their own team’s fault?
Christ I could walk up and down the streets in Virginia wearing a clown suit and a pair of rubber shoes and collect 400 signatures per district to put Bozo the Clown on the ballot.
Defend Liberty — Join the NRA | Live in Massachusetts? Join GOAL.
Rules is rules. So suck it up and move ahead.
tumbleweedsteve Saturday, December 24th at 4:14PM EST (link)Ron Paul has the constitutional record that goes back 30+ years. And when people take time to listen to what Ron is saying rather than what the media spins him to represent, they quickly realize that this man is our last true statesman. Weak on foreign policy? Nope…he only wants that congress take back their responsibility and “declare war” according to the constitution. Ron does not want to be king. We have not delared war since WWII. And we have not won one either. Too old? Nope again…and I bet he would use a fraction of the vacation time of Bush or Obama. Wants to legalize drugs? That’s not exactly what he said. Ron wants to follow the constitution and get the federal government out of our lives, out of our pockets, and out of the way. Much of our federal regulation is unconstitutional, and the power should go back to the states. ie…We The People. If you want to know what Ron Paul stands for, just get out your pocket constitution and start reading. Because if it isn’t in there…Ron Paul is against it.
Restore America Now! Vote for Ron Paul in 2012. Maybe we can save this country and restore our free republic. It’s up to YOU.
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LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC
The stink is strong with this one...nt.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:24PM EST (link)–no^text–
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
OK. I'll Bite
quill67 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:25PM EST (link)Suppose Congress declares war on Iran because they fear they will use nuclear weapons against American interests. Do you believe Ron Paul would take military action?
I don't....
Dave_A (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 3:24AM EST (link)Given his open hostility to the actual *fighting* side of the military (His time in the AF was spent practicing his medial specialty (OB/GYN), far from any sort of combat… He is a classic pacifist/objector), I highly doubt he’d deploy troops, even if war was declared.
Right now, all of Paul’s ‘plans’ center on one thing – increasing the power of Congress – a body he happens to be a member of…
Were he to become President, I have little doubt that he’d ‘discover’ a new ‘constitutional mandate’ for greater executive power.
Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page
Hey, Merry Christmas, Ron Paul supporter!
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:32PM EST (link)Not interested. Ron Paul isn’t even close to what this nation needs right now. He wouldn’t have the slightest idea about what needs to done to restore this country’s reputation after Obama’s perpetual kow-towing to other nations (mostly our enemies). And his economic policies are too far outside the mainstream for us to take that kind of risk with an already unstable economy.
Amusingly, one rule here is...
Moe Lane (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:38PM EST (link)…”Ron Paul supporters get banned on sight.”
So you of course understand that by your own argument you have to go away now.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
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Nice Steve, but get ready for Obama 2.0
heraklios Saturday, December 24th at 4:56PM EST (link)because conservatives aren’t voting Romney, NO MATTER WHAT
I will. If it comes down to Romney vs. Obama, I'll vote Romney
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:01PM EST (link)I won’t like doing it. I don’t trust the man. And I’ll hope to goodness that we have plenty of Conservatives in Congress to keep his head on straight for him.
But take a chance on 4 more years of the great “transformation of America” that will be guaranteed if Obama wins? Not a chance.
Va Gov. Bob McDonnell said he is "very interested" in the VP slot
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:27PM EST (link)in a public statement sometime in August. When he was running for the Gov. seat in 09, he called on Mitt Romney to come and do several campaign events with him just days before the election, at the same time that Obama came to help the D candidate Deeds. When Romney did a campaign event in norther Virginia, he called on Gov. McDonnell to come and campaign with him, and he did.
If Romney wins the nom., and chooses McDonnell as his VP mate, that is going to look very very bad for Virginia. McDonnell would be a likely choice for Romney, as he is from the south, and he is seen by many as a Conservative. It would be similar to McCain choosing Palin as she was considered a conservative, and to counter his moderate reputation.
McDonnell isn't a draw
Cargosquid (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:45PM EST (link)for conservatives. He’s seen as a conservative but not one that will draw crowds. He’s an Establishment Virginian Republican.
Cuccinelli on the other hand……..
That's why Cuccinelli
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:02PM EST (link)is going to clean the floor with the even more moderate than McDonnell Lt Gov. Bill Bolling. Did I tell you Bolling is Romney’s VA campaign chair. Thank you for acknowledging that McDonnell is an Establishment Virginia Republican. In VA, the Governor can only run for one 4 year term and they are out. That’s why they can do whatever they dang well please as they are never facing re-election season.
Ken Cuccinelli, Governor in 2013! After all, all the best conservative things that have happened since 2010 can be directly attributed to him, even though McDonnell is taking credit for them.
i agree with both of you. ken cuccinelli is going to make
mikeymike143 (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 3:07AM EST (link)a great governor. i was actually hoping that he was going to be named AG after obama loses next year. what a breath of fresh air that would be, going from eric holder to ken cuccinelli.
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VA Election History
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 5:53PM EST (link)VA almost always elects the opposite party to the governorship to the previous year’s presidential election. If Obama wins reelection, the Republican will almost certainly be elected to the Governorship. If a Republican wins the WH, a Democrat will be elected Governor.
It looks like a reverse Martha Coakley to me
kowalski (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:35PM EST (link)Remember that campaign with Scott Brown and Martha Coakley here in Massachusetts? The one where Coakley was so convinced she didn’t need to campaign against the pickup-truck drivin’ lowlife and former Playgirl object d’grope that she comprehensively lost the election to him in one of the biggest surprise smackdowns in U.S. electoral history?
Coakley just didn’t campaign hard in the final weeks. She was convinced there was no way she’d lose. She had all the right endorsments, the Machine was running in her favor, then it was: “Surprise, Surprise, Surprise.”
I just have to wonder whether Gingrich got complacent in his own backyard, dropped the ball, and now everyone’s standing around thinking: “Well, there’s you’re problem, right there.”
Defend Liberty — Join the NRA | Live in Massachusetts? Join GOAL.
Sorry, Cosmopolitan not Playgirl
kowalski (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:09PM EST (link)Almost the same thing, just a difference in where they crop the photos.
But really what did happen in Massachusetts in addition to a groundswell, a kind of protest vote against Kennedy that was a release of a lot of longstanding emotion, was a total ball-dropping on the part of his adversary. Coakley probably would have beaten Scott Brown if she hadn’t been complacent here, but it wasn’t her style and more importantly she didn’t think she needed to.
How could Massachusetts vote a Republican into Ted Kennedy’s seat? Impossible. Can’t happen.
Similarly, how could Newt Gingrich fail to get on the Republican Primary ballot in Virginia? Impossible. Can’t happen.
I’m not willing to accept more nefarious reasons for anything that’s happened in Virginia until I see proof of something other than that. At this point to me it looks like Team Gingrich just put up a lackluster effort. What are we talking here, a couple hundred, maybe a thousand more signatures? I can’t believe he couldn’t get them for any other reason than it was a big brain fart on the part of his entire team there.
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Gingrich, Perry et all better not screw up in Illinois too
thirstyboots Saturday, December 24th at 4:49PM EST (link)5,000 signatures needed there. I’ve heard the Gingrich campaign only started gathering them yesterday, Unbelievable.
Why is it unbelievable?
urbanelephants Saturday, December 24th at 8:49PM EST (link)The campaign only hired it first Florida staff this past week. The reality is he is so far behind the curve of where he needs to be that if he actually came out of the first four contest with a win he wouldn’t be able to capitalize on it because Newt wasn’t really in this to be president.
Think about it Newt love to remind us all how much he knows about history. Do you really think this guy didn’t know the importance having Iowa and NH organized? Or that he would need better funding? Seems to me he has been waiting to put together a campaign like maybe he wasn’t expecting to be a real candidate and this was all an opportunity to sell books?
It's already over 'cause
woggie Saturday, December 24th at 4:52PM EST (link)TP will now sit it out. No WH, no Senate, and probably no House.
What's your purpose in continuing to make these statements, woggie?
lineholder (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:56PM EST (link)You’ve been at it all day.
NO, we do NOT have to look at this situation with a pre-determined outcome of complete and total failure, which is EXACTLY what you’re proposing by making these comments.
We still have it within our means to fight our way through this.
Not so fast
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 5:59PM EST (link)Independents like divided government, especially after Obama’s first 2 years. The Congress and the White House are independent contests. They are not likely to be correlated in 2012 at the House level, and only somewhat correlated at the Senate level with a State’s electoral vote.
I would be more afraid of Pelosi making a concerted and principled effort to win back the House on a platform of single payer healthcare than any prospect of Obama coattails in the House.
It's already over 'cause
woggie Saturday, December 24th at 4:52PM EST (link)TP will now sit it out. No WH, no Senate, and probably no House.
Moe, rules ARE rules
ohiohistorian (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 4:57PM EST (link)Moe, I remember the angst that the Corzine replacement of Torricelli caused back in the late 90′s/early 00′s. A lot of Republicans then said that the rules are the rules. Suggest that VA is NOT the end of the world for any candidate, nor is it a mandate for any candidate.
If a candidate can’t get organized and get 15,000 votes in a month or two, what is he going to be like as President? This seems to be a likely indictment of both Perry and Gingrich if they can’t get organized and going in all 57 states.
““Liberals tend to put the onus of your success on society and conservatives on you and your family.”
—Dennis Prager
More often than we'd want to admit, the law is an ass
civil truth (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:16PM EST (link)…and rules the refuge of scoundrels.
In the end, despite good intentions, sometimes rules end up frustrating their purpose, which in this case was to give Republican voters the opportunity to pick their candidate of choice, not to set up an obstacle course for campaigns to navigate.
I’d hope that people would at least recognize this latest example of human fallibility and show some humility and charity, especially at this season, rather than cackling over temporal advantages.
It’s the cost in human spirit of the corrupting of decent folks that’s the greatest wound of this electoral season to date.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
because they're Republican doesn't mean they're smart
johnt Saturday, December 24th at 5:28PM EST (link)Great system. lotsa brains, keep out two of the big guys, make a farce of the whole thing, treat it with the seriousness and detail of a Presidential recount, make damn fools of yourselves. Yep, Republicans.
“a man’s admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him”. Tocqueville
What happened in VA
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 5:30PM EST (link)hopefully will solidify support for the not-Romney, not-Paul candidates. As has been said, this disaster has very very bad optics for Romney and the VA GOP. I was devastated by this news, and thought it would really hurt Perry and Gingrich in Iowa. Now I’m more hopeful that what has happened will finally be the nail in the coffin of the Republican establishment push for Romney. Maybe now there will be a coalescing around a not-Romney candidate. Both Perry or Newt can still win the nom. without VA. The eventual nom. needs 1143 delegates to win the nom. and VA is only one of 50 states. It ain’t over yet.
I don't understand the bad optics for anyone except Gingrich
kowalski (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:27PM EST (link)He couldn’t get 10,000 signatures. He couldn’t meet the requirements. How is that “bad optics” for Romney and the VA GOP?
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It's like saying:
kowalski (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:31PM EST (link)“I run an ice cream shop and nobody likes my ice cream. I couldn’t even make it to the State Ice Cream competiton because nobody liked my sundaes. Don’t you see how that’s bad for my opponent?”
Scope normally I like you but I don’t understand the logic there. How is it “bad optics” for Romney when Gingrich can’t get on the Republican Primary ballot in his “adopted home state?”
When the requirements for doing so are meager? And even Ron Paul can do it?
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kowalski--Scope can explain it better because she is
westcoastpatriette (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 7:05PM EST (link)a Virginian, but she has posted several times about the close relationship Romney has with establishment Republicans officials in VA. It is quite tangled but one of them who is considering running for Governor against Cuccinnelli in 2013 is Romney’s campaign chair in VA and the current Governor McDonnell is very tight with Romney. This is why to some, the rejection of both Gingrich and Perry’s signature slates could be viewed with suspicion and an attempt to clear the way for Romney to win.
sadly you're right
trelane Saturday, December 24th at 7:11PM EST (link)I am a Newt fan, but this is a disappointing failure on the part of his campaign. Yeah the rules suck, but either play by the rules or don’t play the game. I hope he can shape up his organization before we get stuck with Mitt.
kowalski- I wasn't talking about Gingrich in particular
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 8:20PM EST (link)I was referring to the bad optics in VA that out of seven candidates, who we all watched in debate after debate, only two of those candidates are on the ballot. If you can’t see the bad optics, when you add the VA higher up support for Romney, you are not looking at the whole picture. BTW, I know it’s Christmas Eve and all, but I never bought your diary where you put Perry first. You sure did talk a whole lot about the bad Newt, the good Romney, and said almost nothing at all about why you put Perry first. You said almost nothing about why you put Perry first, almost nothing.
I'm inclined to agree.
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 8:42AM EST (link)And certainly hope you turn out to be right!
What I wan tto knwo is this
center77 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:49PM EST (link)How is it that this state wants to limit what the voters can or can’t do this seems so wrong to me. I am not the one who thinks there has to be some conspiracy, but I would not am surprised if it was the case. It seems to me that maybe the campaigns did not think they would need to get a lot more, and if they do not verify at 16,000 when why don’t all campaigns just get that many people to sign, I could do that in my city alone.
I hope they get their act together, and this does not help Romney at all I believe, the voters there may just vote for Paul to hurt Romney, and Romney also gets blamed for tampering with the states once again.
My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
http://www.timothy-bladel.com/
I’m a proud supporter of Rick Perry. God Bless everyone.
“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewll adress (January 11, 1989)
It was know, but I am sure you know that
center77 (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 6:56PM EST (link)I’ve never typed that great but I’ve started to practice. I just need to slow down because sometimes my fingers are working faster than my brain.
My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
http://www.timothy-bladel.com/
I’m a proud supporter of Rick Perry. God Bless everyone.
“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewll adress (January 11, 1989)
Byron York was right
utahtim Saturday, December 24th at 7:15PM EST (link)Before running for president, you think about running for president. But I guess you could say VA “excluded” Gingrinch and Perry from the primary in the sense that they also “excluded” around 6 billion others.
Well, maybe I’m being too hard on G and P. They’re entitled to contest their “exclusions” to the limit allowed by law. Thus far, G has chosen to issue “stern warnings” to the VA GOP while P has manned up and said, basically, he’ll soldier on anyway. Good show, Perry!
The VA primary qualification thing makes me wonder, however, that maybe Newt’s run really was just supposed to be an extended book tour, and Perry was just trying to get some experience for 2016 or 2020. Otherwise, how do you explain their respective lapses. They’re smart and accomplished guys.
Meanwhile, Gingrich on facebook
septembergurl (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 8:14PM EST (link)compares Virginia ballot setback to Pearl Harbor:
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10150470288199197&id=19182454196
Yeah.
What I read.
benson1 Saturday, December 24th at 8:33PM EST (link)Gingrich and Perry both had the 10,000 plus signatures but if you don’t have 15,000 plus, the signatures are compared to registered voter lists. If the voters haven’t updated their address after moving their signature is thrown out. I would say Gingrich and Perry either weren’t able to come up with 15,000 or knowing the signatures they had gotten were valid didn’t know some would be thrown out if they had moved but not updated their registration. I would say it’s up to your the planners on your team to look into the actual requirements so these kind of things don’t happen. The candidates themselves are already stretched thin and this should be something they can count on their team to take care of for them. I’ll bet neither of them will leave it to someone else again.
Romney only gets a SAMPLE check of his sigs?
pj2012 Saturday, December 24th at 8:53PM EST (link)Is that fair to the other candidates? (*see below) I don’t think so. Newt and Perry received more scrutiny on their signatures and Romney get’s away with a quick peek on a sample of his. What was the RUSH to check on Perry’s and Newt’s sigs just before IOWA? AND just before the holidays…. It just smells a little bit fishy to me.
“The Republican Party of Virginia confirmed Friday morning that both Ron Paul and Mitt Romney had met the threshold to appear on the ballot. Paul turned in 14, 361 signatures. Romney turned in 16,026, far above the required 10,000. * A Romney staffer said because he cleared 15,000 signatures, the party only checked a sample of his signatures, but nearly 80 percent of those checked were valid. So they say… I say check them ALL.
Perry turned in 11,911, but did not make the ballot because of multiple filing errors. The state party declined to say how many of Perry’s signatures were invalid. “ Well… how many was it RPV? Inquiring minds would like to know.
http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/newt-perry-fail-make-va-ballot/275216
One good thing about Perry and Gingrich being disqualified...
louisianapatriette (Diary) Saturday, December 24th at 10:13PM EST (link)Well, no–three good things.
1) The Perry and Gingrich supporters on RedState are, for once, united in frustration against the Virginia GOP. Perry and Gingrich themselves are “on the same page.” Hopefully they will form some sort of alliance and challenge the VA GOP on this.
2) The Not-Romney vote in Virginia will go to Ron Paul. I’m very confident this will happen. It will be a fantastic example of a protest vote.
3) Hopefully Establishment practices/connections will be under closer scrutiny. Like Moe said, the environment is RIPE for conspiracy theories, some of which may be true or partly true. It’s about time the Establishment got some “verification.”
A few things that need to happen for the RedState Perry Posse:
1) Keep up your courage and optimism. Read a fantastic tweet today that I’ve edited out of Twitter-speak. “Pray, people! VA ballot situation equals fiery darts, but NOT a fatal blow.We Will Have to Fight for Every Step. Enemy is strong, but God is Stronger.” Amen and amen.
2) Our dear friend Miss Scope said yesterday she would “scream her brains out” about Romney’s connections with the VA GOP. Yes, let’s give them a hard time about it. Let them know we won’t take this lying down. The Republican Party of Virginia’s website IS UP (www.rpv.org). Here’s their mailing address:
The Republican Party of Virginia
The Richard D. Obenshain Center
115 E. Grace Street
Richmond, VA 23219
And their phone number:
Phone: 804-780-0111
Acat said (and my brother confirmed this afterward) we should avoid sending emails as they are often mass-deleted. Snail-mail and phone calls, starting Monday, would be the best route in order to voice our disapproval. Be respectful (read: do not shout or use bad language or be snarky!) but firm and unyielding. pj2012′s comment above (www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2011/12/24/day-two-of-the-great-vagop-meltdown/#comment-61309) has the perfect questions we need to be asking in our letters/phone calls.
OK, I’m going to call it quits on RS for the night. Y’all have a very merry Christmas and rest up, because it’s going to be a wild ride from now till January 3rd!
“Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts.”–Winston Churchill
@ChangeForPerry
Win witihout Virginia
superpatriot Saturday, December 24th at 10:23PM EST (link)Anyone out there think Gingrich, who is leading in every poll except New Hamphshire and Iowa, could win GOP election without Virginia??
But seriously, I really think the staff of Perry and Gingrich will talk to the GOP of Virginia and work this thing out.
I mean, Virginia, which is a pretty conservative state, should not just be left wit Paul and Romney.
Debate Stupidity
drfredc Saturday, December 24th at 10:59PM EST (link)Gee, after month and months of meaningless debates, including some folks who have about zip chance of getting elected, you think someone, somewhere in the GOP LOSERship would have perhaps had the notion of connecting the debates with who is actually on ballots.
It’s not like making a debate/ballot connection is rocket science. In fact, it might have made a nice way to track candidate progress and to have those who aren’t making progress fall by the side so more time can be spend on those who do have their act together.
The process shouldn’t be rocket science to develop. Something like to participate in X debate, you’d have to have to be on the ballots in X * 2 states. If a state requires B signatures to get on the ballot, then having B * 2 signatures if the state hasn’t closed it’s signature process. You know, require the candidates get some organization behind them focused on collecting signatures. The candidate process should not just be about debate skills, but also organizing to get something as simple as collecting money and ballot signatures…
But then these sorts of ideas would require the GOP LOSERship to have a ounce of creativity and foresight. But what was I thinking? They aren’t called the LOSERship for no good reason…
Always, Fred C
You bet there is a conspiracy
unsk Sunday, December 25th at 12:31AM EST (link)With what the GOP has achieved in this Congress, how could anyone think differently.
This process was rigged form the git go for the Establishment to manipulate when necessary. All you Romney supporters are just pathetic. This signature process serves no other purpose than to be manipulated.
I will vote for only Newt and Perry among the current crop of Republican candidates. No other.
Romney will get hammered if he gets the nomination. He is essentially a corporate raider in the tank the for Establishment Corporate interests . He admitted in the past he was a Progressive and now we are to believe he has changed his stripes to be become a conservative? He will inspire an angry revolt among the base. And we will never hear the end of how many jobs he killed at Bain Capital during the general election if we are stuck with him.
This is a terrible day for the Republican Party. It has been taken over by a bunch of bought and paid for traitors who look out for only for their own selfish interests and not at all for the country’s.
A solution to this mess...
Dave_A (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 3:14AM EST (link)The national GOP should refuse to seat delegates from ANY state that excludes a GOP candidate or candidates found on at least 75% of primary ballots.
VA can then choose to stick by ‘the rules are the rules’ and be kicked out of the convention…
Or they can change their requirements enough to have all the contenders on the ballot.
Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page
Yes, Virginia. There is a Santa Claus.
tngal (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 4:56AM EST (link)Just felt compelled to say that this morning.
Some "Establishment candidates"
renl57 Sunday, December 25th at 6:32AM EST (link)Unsk: “This process was rigged form the git go for the Establishment to manipulate when necessary. ”
Really?
Over the years, the following “Establishment candidates” managed to get enough signatures to qualify in VA’s primaries:
Lyndon Larouche
Al Sharpton
Alan Keyes
Dennis Kucinich
They’re not exactly “Establishment candidates.”
If Lyndon Larouche (!!!) could do it, and Alan Keyes could do it, then there’s no excuse for Gingrich or Perry to be unable to do it.
The fact that Larouche and Keyes could do it proves that it’s not a very high bar to overcome–if you start early enough.
Speaking of Lyndon LaRouche - makes Paul seem average
tailfins1959 Sunday, December 25th at 9:39AM EST (link)I was an object of their attention on the subway yesterday. After telling them I was a conservative Republican, I figured they would go away. They proceeded to tell me I should support them and spare some cash because they were one of the few with the nerve to picket a place like Boston using pictures of Obama with a Hitler mustache. They acted like they were hypnotized, almost like the Unification Church followers that were begging for money at airports before 9/11.
You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf
If you can read, renl57
unsk Sunday, December 25th at 11:01AM EST (link)I said “when necessary”.
Were any of those kooks you cited a real threat to the Establishment?
Absolutely not.
Is Newt? And perhaps Perry? You betcha.
The kooks of the past may have been just let through without much scrutiny.
Verification of signatures is always a very subjective process ripe for manipulation. This VA registration system has created multiple difficult hoops and hurdles too make it that much more easily manipulated and expensive than normal. Obviously very expensive. Otherwise, Huntsman, Santorum and Bachmann would have bothered. The fact that those three didn’t even try means that the bar is far too high, not that those candidates just want to be “spoilers”. The expense must be more than the trouble it’s worth to qualify.
This issue is not one of competence as so many of the Romneybots have claimed. Campaigns have limited funds. The qualification process is not about competence; it’s usually about having the funds to pay to get those signatures. That is typically what campaigns must do: pay to have a service get the verification signatures. If the price tag and the process was reasonable they all would have paid the cost and gotten the extra signatures to qualify.
Normally, those government officials handling elections take great pains to avoid any hint of impropriety. So in the campaigns I have seen, the registrar of voters normally provides the opportunity to certify that a candidate’s signatures are sufficient way before any deadline is reached. And there are usually multiple opportunities to rectify insufficient signatures before that filing deadline. That way the vast amount of claims of favoritism are avoided. The fact that this process is apparently set up to easily deny certification puts the onus on the election officials to prove that this process wasn’t manipulated for Romney.
Even lazy Fred Thompson got on the VA ballot
haners Sunday, December 25th at 8:33AM EST (link)This is just so typical of Newt Gingrich, when he doesn’t get his way he wants to change the rules mid-game and blame somebody else. This was Newt’s own failure, at least Perry seems to own up to it.
Fred's petitions were not cross-checked by computer as Perry's and Gingrich's were in 2012.
deVere Sunday, December 25th at 7:22PM EST (link)The rules may not have changed in 2012, but the validation methods have changed in an important way.
Va Ballot what it is telling me
bzip Sunday, December 25th at 9:05AM EST (link)There are many things that peeve me about this Va ballot issue and it might be surprising to some:
The Va ballot issue has proven to me we have a few candidates that do not belong in this race and should drop out – The candidates that didn’t even bother to try and turn in ballot signatures: Bachmann, Santorum, and Huntsman. Those three candidates didn’t even bother to try – they are jokes and are spoiling it for those who are trying to take this election serious. Did they take into account how the voters of Va would feel by NOT even trying to be on the ballot.
Did Perry and Newt try and obtain enough signatures – Yes, but not enough to cover the bases and for that they screwed up.
Who gets the short end of this: The voters of Va and the American people. You can blame Perry and Newt all you want but it is the voters who get the short end. Because of this the Va GOP will end up looking bad and taking a lot of heat. There is plenty of blame and the Va GOP will be taking some it.
Oddly enough, if the GOP really doesn’t want Ron Paul as a nominee it sure looks like they are doing the opposite at this rate since in the Va race it is now down to Romney and Paul.
Now if you look at this more closely we have:
Newt who actually lives in Va and should know very well the rules – even more so that write-ins aren’t permitted and compares this to Perl harbor – Newt is looking foolish with the way he is handling this.
Now Team Perry seems so far to be handling properly – the basically say they will find out the facts to determine whether it should be challenged or not and they are pressing on without all the drama.
The Va delegates amount to 49, so about 2% of the total delegates (2286) or about 4% of the required amount to win the nomination. The problem is in Va the voters are the ones getting the lousy end of the deal here and that is truly not fair to them.
I can’t say strong enough how I feel about the candidates that are wasting everyone’s time, they should NOT even be running if they can’t at least make an sincere effort: Bachmann, Santorum, Huntsman should not be running. Yes, both Perry and Newt screwed up but not really covering themselves well enough but at least they made n honest effort unlike: Bachmann, Santorum and Huntsman.
I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.
Follow @WilliamKronert
Bzip, my family and I had been hashing that over.
romansdaughter Sunday, December 25th at 9:44AM EST (link)What are they doing in the race..Bachmann, Santorum and Huntsman? I mean it is obvious they don’t think they are going to win as they aren’t even trying. I think Huntsman is just giving his all in New Hampshire and Bachmann and Santorum giving their all in Iowa and aren’t even seeming to be thinking of any other State at the moment. So we were thinking the same thing…strange. Are you thinking what I am thinking??? That possible these candidates are just spoilers…maybe someone is going to pay their debts or something to stay in as long as possible??? Boy, politics can be pretty shady to me. Okay got to go…I am doing Turkey and stuffing need to go keep my eye on that. Have a a Merry Christmas!
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
Yep, Bachmann, Santorum and Hunstman are spoilers
bzip Sunday, December 25th at 10:15AM EST (link)Yes, as soon as I heard back last week that Bachmann, Santorum and Huntsman didn’t even try to make the ballot it became clear ot me these three need to go. They aren’t taking this serious are are only messing it up for those who are taking it serious.
Both Santorum and Bachmann are putting it all into Iowa thinking some fire is going to catch with the voters and then all the big money people will then come to their aid – that isn’t going to happen.
Huntsman has a strange idea – he seems to think if he pulls a fairly good win he too will catch on fire with the voters for the rest of the race – that isn’t going to happen. None of them seem to have any really path or idea of how they will go the distance for the nomination but boy they sure know how to mess it up for the others.
It is clear ot me that Perry is digging in for the long haul, the long distance runner and I think that is what Romney is doing, I don’t know about Newt yet.
Have a very Merry Christmas and enjoy the turkey.
I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.
Follow @WilliamKronert
limited funds
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 6:15PM EST (link)If you have very limited funds you have to pick your battles. It is obvious the second tier candidates are hoping to catch fire after Iowa or NH, and then raise enough cash quickly to ramp up an organization. It is especially difficult if you don’t have personal wealth and therefore cannot self-fund (Bachmann). Perry killed her support early, and denied her the ability to raise enough money. I expect she will drop out after Iowa and concentrate on keeping her House seat or perhaps try for the MN open Senate seat.
Huntsman has personal wealth but has made clear that he will not spend his own cash. I guess he doesn’t really want it all that bad.
Romney should withdraw in Virginia
tailfins1959 Sunday, December 25th at 9:45AM EST (link)Then he should hold a press conference stating that avoiding a divisive fight in the party is more important than a few delegates. Romney would look like a pure gentleman. The goodwill gesture would more than offset the number of delegates he might win in Virginia.
You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf
Re: Romney should withdraw in Virginia
bzip Sunday, December 25th at 10:16AM EST (link)Yes, that is one of the ways Romney would look very gentlemen and presidential – withdraw from Va. What would end up happening is the Va GOP would most likely allow Perry and Newt on the ballot.
But I doubt very much Romney would take such a route. Rules are rules but I also think the Va GOP owes it to the voters to allow both Newt and Perry on the ballot, allow a fair contest with voters deciding between them. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the weeks to come.
I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.
Follow @WilliamKronert
Rules are such a nuisance
geotan Sunday, December 25th at 11:50AM EST (link)Yes, we should just ignore those silly things called rules. I sometimes feel like cutting in line at the supermarket but that darn rule of consideration and respect keeps me from doing it! Why don’t we let every Larry, Curly and Moe run for the primary and have no signatures required to be President. Then we’ll get lots of people on the ballot to vote for. After all, not every one has supporters and money like Gingrich and Perry do. Why should these elites from government be the only ones who can run for high office? Oh wait, they didn’t get 10K signatures! Oh well, I guess running for President requires more organization and support than I realized. If you can’t run a decent primary then you don’t deserve to be considered.
Geotan: Dig deeper
tailfins1959 Sunday, December 25th at 2:06PM EST (link)I’m thinking the primary isn’t going to be close. If Romney drops out in VA, he will look like an adult giving a rattle to a screaming infant. It will also dissolve any argument that Romney has heavy handed supporters in VA. Can the rules even be legally changed mid stream? I have been open to someone knocking Romney off the top of the hill. Each anti-Romney has imploded under scrutiny,
Romney can refer to supporters as like family saying he asks them to join him in demonstrating sacrifice to show good will to others in the party.
You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf
bzip- I've been reading
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 12:03PM EST (link)various VA websites this morning, mostly concerning the VA ballot mess. What has been very striking to me is that some who are either on the inside of VA politics, or have access to the machinations of the VA GOP are the ones out there writing things like, we now know who the strong candidates are, Romney and Paul, and Perry and Gingrich have shown that they are very disorganized or aren’t up to prime time. One guy wrote that VA is one of 10 states having a primary on March 6, and that now because of having only two candidates on the ballot, VA will finally be getting some national attention, and that VA will now be in the news. Can you believe that? That was written by a guy, who claims in his bio, that he is a VA political insider, and a party activist for several years. Another one complained that Perry and Newt didn’t set up campaigns and spend enough money in VA because they have been spending their time and resources in the early states, the nerve of them. Truly, it was all about spending money in VA, and hiring VA staff members. Sound like the Iowa GOP? It appears that there is some real jealousy going on there over Iowa, NH, SC and Fla.
For those saying that the rules have been the rules for decades, that simply is not true. When the Democrats still controlled the VA Senate in 1999, they changed the rules, and made it harder to get on the ballot, with upping the number of signatures required, notarizing the ballots etc. It has been said by a few here that the Democrats wanted to make it hard for the unpopular or fly by night candidates from getting on the ballot. I don’t know if the Democrats included the rule that write ins would not be allowed. The Democrats lost the majority in the VA Senate in the 1999 elections, and the Republicans took over in Jan. 2000. The Democrats seldom have multiple candidates running in any of their races, and their presidential field gets narrowed very early on.
There is a VA website, Mason Conservative where the author writes extensively about VA insider politics, and has a great article about the old guard in Richmond, Cantor, Bolling, McDonnell etc., and the new guard in NOVA. I don’t agree with all he says, but for those that don’t believe that there is very much so an “old guard establishment” that exists in this state, and others also I’m sure, the article is a must read. It points out all of the power plays that are still happening in the VA GOP. It is all about retaining power, and not allowing much if anything to change, or to threaten their power.
I’ve also read some little bit about some computerized system that the RPV has installed, and is what was used to verify the ballot signatures. Someone familiar with the system questioned the accuracy of the system, as it apparently had some big problems in the past. The curt reply, from the political insider speaking, was that the system was working fine and is accurate.
From what I’m reading, the old guard here in VA, the Cantor’s (husband and wife) etc. are going to try to destroy Atty. Gen. Cuccinelli’s run for the Governor’s seat in 2013. The current Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling is also running, and it is widely known, or it should be, that it is “his turn.” I know that that race will not take place until after the presidential, Senate, and House elections, but, it would be my wish that many of us here would come out in support of him. He will be the one to finally break up the backroom, smoke filled rooms where the party elders/uppers are put in retirement.
I’ve said before, even Fred Thompson talked about the massive problems with insider politics in VA, where only the anointed make the rules. They are banking on Ron Paul not winning in VA, but they couldn’t possibly have only one name on the ballot. I have a very funny feeling they are going to get the surprise of their lives, if they don’t fix this mess.
How many races have you seen where there are 6-7 D candidates all running for the same seat? It’s not often, if ever. It seems as though the D’s have to get permission from the DNC to run, and they choose who they think has the best shot at winning that particular seat. Blue Dog’s need not apply. Right now there is one D, Tim Kaine, former VA Gov. running to replace Senator Jim Webb, and there are something like 5-6 R candidates. With only one D candidate the D’s can focus all of their resources and time on just that one candidate. I promise, Kaine will turn in probably 100,000 ballot signatures.
Dem rules are different
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 6:23PM EST (link)Remember the Democrats have a massive number of Superdelegates, who proved to be the deciders in 2008. So yes, in the Dem nominating system, you do need establishment permission to make a serious run for the Presidency.
At the state level, Kaine is the most prominent Democrat. It is not surprising that he is the only candidate. Allen is vulnerable being the loser of last time. So, yes it is understandable that there will be lots of competition for the nomination.
wingnut- It doesn't matter how many superdelagates
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 7:18PM EST (link)the Dems have. That only pertains to the Dem. party. It has nothing to do with the Republicans, and their delegates.
Yes absolutely Kaine is the strongest Dem. candidate for the Senate seat. Because Allen lost the bid last time doesn’t make him vulnerable this time. If you followed that race, you would know that Allen’s macaca statement was the lead, and racist story in that race, and the Washington Post carried that story 24/7. Since Obama, do you really think that macaca is now such a terribly racist comment? Talking about going down a black hole, especially with respect to the post office, an oft repeated non-racist tag is now considered a racist comment. The racist garbage has been very overplayed. Look at the Perry rock story, also put out by the Washington Post, and picked up and exaggerated by Cain.
I know that many don’t like Allen, but he can beat Kaine. There is no one else in that race that even comes anywhere near where Allen is in that race. The others are all polling in single digits, and have collected close to no campaign contributions, while Allen is now starting to pull ahead of Kaine in the latest state polling, and has raised millions. Again, my point has been, there are so many other R candidates running, that have absolutely no chance of winning, but refuse to get out of the race. It is similar to the Bachmann, Santorum and Huntsman races. They just won’t get out no matter what. The Kaine/Allen race is very close and the other candidates that have no chance still stay in. If the vote is that close, the inferior candidates can swing it to Kaine.
Romney
superpatriot Sunday, December 25th at 6:22PM EST (link)Romney won’t withdraw from VA.
He will say anything, and do anything to win. Hence, he is a flip-flopper.
I primarily support Perry, followed by Newt. I think Paul is a wacko.
If Perry does’nt do well in early primaries, I will be all behind Newt.
Perr/Newt ’12
I agree
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 8:48AM EST (link)If he were to pull that off without gloating about his signatures it would help his image a lot.
Rec'd "Being George Washington"
circlegranch Sunday, December 25th at 10:32AM EST (link)late last night and began reading it in lieu of a long winter’s nap.
I had promised myself no things political would detract me from full focus on remembering Christ’s birth and what that gift should mean to us all. Yet, the flesh is weak and here I am, checking morning notes at RS.
I’m thinking alot today about George Washington and knowing in those early days of this great nation, there were men of great political ambition, those that sought personal glory and power over good for the country. I know he must have observed situations similar to the bombshell dropped on the political process such as this ridiculous VA primary thing. Where do we go from here?
Should we give in and realize that their are power brokers and people of enormous wealth that can work behind the scenes securing elections for hand-picked persons, such as Barack Obama and whomever his GOP contender will be in ’12? Is there anything we can do, or do we simply let go, let God, and hope for the best? Are we called to fight back and at least try, or should we be still in our hearts and let those with more influence and political brain power do all the work? Is this beyond our ability to have any effect? What would George do? What would God have us do? Is anybody listening to us anymore?
I believe there are others that join me today in feeling a hint of sadness for our country and great concern for our future tucked within the glitz and glory of Christmas. We will try to put it aside for the day and wear the smiles as we greet others in our churches and around the tannenbaum’s and dinner tables. But tomorrow the problem remains, does it not, or will we have found the answer to every ill, political and otherwise, inside that manger 2000+ years ago and ultimately, at the foot of the cross?
As bzip writes above, there seems nothing any of us can do now about this VA GOP primary debaucle. It seems every time we get a hint of good news or a tiny implication that there is a turn around in this process, something new comes along, intended to destroy our faith. Personally, I have a great discomfort in the reporting that says Mr. Romney’s VA campaign chair is also the individual overseeing the validation/counting of signatures. There is an impropriety in that situation, if indeed it is true, that brings anything but closure.
In the coming days, I’d like for the Perry signature gatherers in VA to come forward and tell their side of the story. Did they, in fact, just make up names and fill in blanks rather than actually get out and knock on doors and conduct the process within the law of ethics and the State of Virginia? Who was this job assigned to and who oversaw their activity? Was anyone in the Perry campaign involved in validating signatures prior to turning them in? Were there any checks and balances in place or was it just a free for all assigned to people without checking their backgrounds first? Someone was entrusted with a very important job and from the information thus available, they failed miserably. If this turns out to be entirely true as reported from Mr. Romney’s VA campaign manager, then people working under the banner of Rick Perry commited a huge injustice against him and against all Americans that have supported him, defended him and fought for him. Every person that dug deep for a $5 or $10 donation was maligned, every person writing here and elsewhere and driving around with his name stuck to their bumper got cheated and somebody needs to be held accountable.
We are owed the truth. We are entitled to full disclosure from alot of sources. Today, we put it aside and try to find in our hearts the faith and knowledge that we are only weak, imperfect humans. We don’t know if we’re following the path that George Washington would have taken in situations such as these, but we do know from our historical knowledge, he seldom took the path of least resistance. He knew a great nation could not be built on deceit, gaming the system, forcing the will of a few on many, lying, and bearing false witness against others.
God gave all mankind a very simple playbook from which we can conduct our lives, our political dealings and our interactions with others. The plays are simple in that we can easily interpret them and in our hearts we know how to execute them, yet they are the most difficult rules we face, which is why we fail every single minute of every single hour and every single day of our lives. The ‘plays’ are the 10 Commandments. Not hard to figure out, yet God knew we’d blow it, again and again, so he came up with yet another way to save us from our human misery and constant failure. He sent His Son as Baby to live among mankind, feel their pain and ultimately to die for them.
May the story of Christmas and ultimately the Easter story visit your hearts today. Tomorrow will bring the return of our sadnesses and fears, our worries and our anger and frustrations. Today, we should at least try, however, to get back to basics and whatever the will of God is in our lives and in our country, let it come quickly and be done among us.
Was There an Abnormally High Level of Invalidations?
btpull Sunday, December 25th at 11:41AM EST (link)Every candidate expects or should expect a certain % of their signatures to be invalidated. Where Perry’s or Newt’s invalidated at a higher % level than normal? If not, then both campaigns were basically incompetent.
No one has released any of that info
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 12:16PM EST (link)and if they don’t provide proof of the invalidations to the public, they are going to suffer some pretty terrible consequences. There was an article out that said that Perry had multiple problems with the ballots, and he linked to another site that was supposed to have named the problems, but, the site was taken down, and is no longer available. I’m giving Perry’s legal team time to look into the problems, as he said they would be. I don’t know what Newt plans on doing, but I don’t suspect him to go quietly into the night over this.
The Petitions of the candidates are presented to the Va. State GOP for certification. .
jimmyg Sunday, December 25th at 12:30PM EST (link)Do you have any evidence that Lt. Gov. Bolling, who chairs Romney’s campaign had anything to do with the certification of the petitions? I have not heard that other than the speculation on this board. The following is the relevant Virginia Statute. Section B is relevant to the presidential primary.
24.2-522. When and to whom filings to be made
A. Declarations of candidacy, petitions, and receipts indicating the payment of filing fees shall be filed not earlier than noon of the seventy-seventh day and not later than 5:00 p.m. of the sixtieth day before the primary.
B. Except as provided in subsection C, candidates for nomination shall file their declarations, petitions, and receipts with the chairman or chairmen of the several committees of the respective parties.
C. Any candidate for nomination for United States Senator, Governor, Lieutenant Governor, or Attorney General shall file with the State Board (i) his declaration of candidacy, (ii) the petitions for his candidacy, sealed in one or more containers to which is attached a written statement under oath by the candidate giving his name and the number of signatures on the petitions contained in the containers, and (iii) a receipt indicating the payment of his filing fee.
The State Board shall transmit the material so filed to the state chairman of the party of the candidate on the fifty-ninth day before the primary. The sealed containers containing the petitions for a candidate may be opened only by the state chairman of the party of the candidate.
jimmg- I don't know who you are replying to
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 12:39PM EST (link)but I never even used the name Bill Bolling in my post that you appear to be replying to. On other posts I’ve pointed out that Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling is Romney’s campaign chair, but I never alluded to him overseeing the ballots, as I have no idea if he does or not.
Circlegranch stated that Romneys campaign chair oversaw the counting and validation
jimmyg Sunday, December 25th at 12:46PM EST (link)“Personally, I have a great discomfort in the reporting that says Mr. Romney’s VA campaign chair is also the individual overseeing the validation/counting of signatures. There is an impropriety in that situation, if indeed it is true, that brings anything but closure.”
This does not seem to be true. The State GOP was responsible for overseeing the counting and validation of the petitions. I think it is best to stomp down these assertions before they become a known fact.
jimmyg- I don't speak for Circlegranch
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 2:01PM EST (link)and where she got her information is unknown to me. I do know that Bill Bolling hand delivered Romney’s ballots to the state house last week, with as is stated on Bill Bollings own websitea handful of volunteers.
From Bollings website article linked above, his last sentence states- “The Democratic Party of VA is expected to begin certifying those signatures Thursday afternoon, and finish the task by 5 PM Friday.” That statement is totally and completely inaccurate. The VA GOP chair Pat Mullins apparently put out a call for volunteers to help with the validation. Bolling has loaned his campaign team to the Romney camp, and I must wonder if some of those volunteers he had with him were in fact some of the volunteers that helped validate the signatures.
Of course the VA GOP is connected at the hip with the R Governor, the R Lt. Gov., and the R Atty Gen. They worked for them and helped them all get elected in the 2009 campaigns. That is what the state GOP is all about, isn’t it?
Another interesting statement from the Bolling website linked above, “Bolling, in a response from a reporter (as he was hand delivering the Romney ballots) said he thinks that a victory by Romney would help his chances in 2013 when he faces Atty. Gen. Ken Cucinelli (R) in the race for Governor.” There you have it in a nutshell, you wash my back, and I’ll wash yours. In case you are not aware, Bolling is a well known moderate, and Cucinelli is a well known conservative.
Another question I have is how would volunteers be able to verify the almost 12,000 signatures submitted by Perry by about 6PM Fri. when he was announced to have not qualified. Verifying the signatures means checking on some type of voter database, to match addresses, and to verify that the signer is a VA registered voter. By later on Fri. night they had also verified more than 11,000 Gingrich signatures. Paul was under the 15,000 number to not have to be verified, so were his signatures all verified on a database also.
Sorry, this stinks to high heaven, and there are too many connections to ignore. Bolling should never have been allowed to act in VA on behalf of Romney, as he is too close to the top in state government. And, he outright states himself that he thinks Romney can help him defeat another R top government official. I promise the VA GOP opened a pandoras box they will very soon regret.
Another very interesting article about the VA ballot signature verfication
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 2:17PM EST (link)What happens if the volunteers, with minimal instruction, and possible supporters of other candidates, decide to just start striking names from other candidates ballots? Shouldn’t there be at least some checking or cross checking This article links back to Paula’s article “This is no way to pick a President,” and that is a fact.
I’m embarrassed to say I live in VA with these types of shennanigans.
If the reports currently out are correct....
Dave_A (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 12:41PM EST (link)Perry had almost 12K signatures, and ‘less than 10,000′ were found to be valid…
That’s almost 20% ‘bad’ sigs… Which is rather high… ‘Normal’ is 10% or less…
Also, reports are stating that the verification criteria for a ‘valid’ signature is much tighter this cycle than it was in the past….
Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page
The Candidate Should Have Expected a High Rejection Rate
btpull Sunday, December 25th at 1:45PM EST (link)The State recommended that the candidates collect 50% – 100% more signatures than the law required. With that in mind a 20% bad signature rate does not seem unreasonable.
The 10,000 signature rate
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 2:27PM EST (link)is already seen as more than a little onerous by all interpretations, and was in fact put in place by a Democrat VA Senate in 1999. Then to say that 50-100% more signatures should be gotten is ludicrous.
I will make a bet that if your guy, and I don’t know if it’s Romney or Paul, was thrown off in this manner, you would be screaming to the high heavens.
As Dave said above, from current reports, the usual toss rate is around 10%. Perry lost nearly 20%. Perry’s VA campaign manger was a former VA Lt. Gov., and is an attorney. I doubt he could be that dumb, having gone through the election process in VA in the past.
Do Not Have a "Guy"
btpull Sunday, December 25th at 2:59PM EST (link)I was supporting Cain until he dropped out. At this point I am fairly neutral just waiting to see who is still standing by super Tuesday.
I just do not think Romney should be penalized for following the rules; it is absurd that people are calling for him to bow out of VA.
Okay Scope..I have a question.
romansdaughter Sunday, December 25th at 3:21PM EST (link)I am reading that if the candidate has more than 15,000 signatures then they don’t have to have their signatures processed is this right? Okay Mitt seems to be the only one that had over 15,000..so he knows this rule and gets a whole bunch of signatures but what is to say that they are all legitimate? I mean if no one is going to check them, then you could just make up signatures, right? I mean is that what I am understanding??
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
That's exactly right romans
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 4:19PM EST (link)Because Romney submitted more than 15,000 signatures, “none” of them have to be verified. If you read one of the links above, you would see that author also saying that he can have pages and pages, even thousands of invalid, or mickey mouse signatures for that matter, but none of them are even looked at. The system is so crooked that the Perry campaign chair could easily have had thousands of signatures forged on the ballots, and as long as there were more than 15,000 they would never have been even examined. See how crooked the system is? Someone who is being honest is penalized unfairly. Let’s see what his lawyers do about the situation, and I hope they do something quick.
You know, even if Perry does manage to get his name on the ballot, and Newt also for that matter, it already has given the appearance that those two campaigns are so shoddy, unorganized, and they are not up to prime time it will hurt both I’m sure. Then again, if the VA GOP can be outed, they can actually gain support for the trickery done to them. Didn’t Cain get more and more support every time there was another bimbo eruption in the media?
This story has already been on Fox and CNN at least a few dozen times. The VA insiders are gloating in saying they are not qualified to be president. The general consensus among the insiders seems to be faulting Perry and Newt for not spending enough money in the state, and for not setting up huge campaign staffs here, it’s about money and campaign jobs I guess. They seem to think that VA should be right up there in importance with the early states, and are feeling left out because VA will be one of 10 states with primaries on March 6. I hate to say it, but if VA doesn’t fix this mess, they will never again have any significance, just as Iowa will be relegated to nothingness if they choose Ron Paul. Paul is a very real possibility here in VA with this move.
I just read a comment on a VA website where someone pointed out that the paid signature collection outfits here in VA were already outed for submitting thousands of fraudulent signatures for past candidates. I don’t know who collected signatures for Perry and Newt, but that question needs to be answered.
Who are most politically active VA residents?
porkandcheese Sunday, December 25th at 5:36PM EST (link)Government workers who seemingly cannot get enough payola and must push for more influence in the elective process. Why should IA, NH and SC have all the fun? The unions are salivating.
porkandcheese- VA is a right to work state
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 6:41PM EST (link)however, the interesting thing about Gov. Bob McDonnell is the fact that after the first year’s budget, it was claimed to be ending with a surplus. The reason for the surplus was because Gov. McDonnell showed a surplus because he didn’t fund the required state government worker pension fund, which many Gov’s have done to make their budget numbers look better. Instead, Gov. McDonnell gave a 3% bonus to all state government workers out of that so-called surplus. Guess who is in charge of the VA State Government pension funds? Yes, Erick Cantors wife. Look it up, it’s all out there to be seen. Guess who is on the Richmond-Times Dispatch board, who released the story about Bill Bowling hand delivering the Romney ballots to the state office, yes again, Erick Cantors wife. Erick Cantor’s wife was also on the board of a NY bank that received TARP funds.
Cantor is a limp Whip for "The Weeping Boner"
porkandcheese Friday, December 30th at 10:38AM EST (link)In the heat of battle, such as the TARP vote of September 28, 2008, and the AIG vote of March 19, 2009, Eric Cantor ducks behind the rail and doesn’t come out till the smoke clears. He and Boehner share many of the same benefactors. Hand picked by Roy Blunt to be the bagman during the Klondike days for the Jack Abramoff crew, Eric Cantor has made a career of trading favors in the Beltway.
This ballot fiasco has shined a bright light on the corruption in A politics, and it will hopefully shake things up. Funny how the wives are always so complicit.
Cantor is a limp Whip for "The Weeping Boner"
porkandcheese Friday, December 30th at 10:41AM EST (link)In the heat of battle, such as the TARP vote of September 28, 2008, and the AIG vote of March 19, 2009, Eric Cantor ducks behind the rail and doesn’t come out till the smoke clears. He and Boehner share many of the same benefactors. Hand picked by Roy Blunt to be the bagman during the Klondike days for the Jack Abramoff crew, Eric Cantor has made a career of trading favors in the Beltway.
This ballot fiasco has shined a bright light on the corruption in VA politics, and it will hopefully shake things up. Funny how the wives are always complicit.
Newt apparently had 30% tossed/ Speaking of the high toss rate, an idea on how to fix this
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:02AM EST (link)Though it’s something of a long shot.
How many signatures did Ron Paul qualify by? He reportedly turned in 14 thousand and something. If he had as many signatures tossed as Newt that would bring him down to about 11,000 maybe if the rest were very carefully inspected more than 1000 more would be thrown out. If Romney was the only candidate to remain on the ballot, they would (presumably) cancel the primary.
Also regarding the high toss rate: Apparently this is the first year they cross checked addresses. If someone’s address didn’t match the voter rolls, their signature was thrown out. Some registered voters may have moved without updating their address information with the BoE.
Whether or not those signatures were legitimate, the rules were (effectively) changed since the last Presidential election leading to a much stricter standard for acceptable signatures. Perry would have easily withstood a 10% toss out rate and Newt also would have survived it (though by a smaller margin) so all this talk about how so many other candidates qualified in the past and Newt and Perry not qualifying shows they can’t organize and are unfit to be President, etc.,etc. is bunk.
The fix = all serious campaigns should collect 15k signatures like the 6 most viable Republican campaigns got in 2008
teme Monday, December 26th at 9:37AM EST (link)Even Fred Thompson who jumped in in September got 15k signatures. Newt and Perry could have easily afforded the $30k-100k that it takes to collect 15k signatures.
From 2008 from Red state archives by Erick:
“Romney, Fred, Rudy, McCain, Huckabee, and Paul all filed over 15,000 signatures each – well above the recommended minimums.”
teme, it's not the number of signatures collected, it's
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:49AM EST (link)the verification process that was used this time compared to previous years. The Osbourne case (pending) in October has apparently set a precedent for Virginia and how they conduct verification of signatures. Gingrich had a bunch tossed out because there was no address with signatures.
Good chance those "15,000" signatures
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:51AM EST (link)have some error if placed under close scrutiny. What Gingrich and Perry should have done is forge another 4,000+ so their ballot petitions could skate through.
*snark*
Even if Romney had as high disqualification rate as Gingrich, 16k will leave him with over 11k votes
teme Monday, December 26th at 10:06AM EST (link)I think when candidate turns in over 15k, they will still inspect a significant sample of them and determine based on the disqualification rate that if further inspection is needed.
Romney also had significantly lower disqualification rate, somewhere under 90%, understandable considering that many of his signatures were collected during 2011 primaries and elections at polling places where all people tend to be registered voters.
I think Romney's signatures need to be cross-checked
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 10:19AM EST (link)under very close scrutiny. His campaign chair, LtGov Bolling needs to be recused from the whole process if in fact he is connected somehow. As a matter of fact, I think an independent group needs to come in and conduct verification. Or let the courts decide, and that usually falls in line with voter participation.
Check out Michael Osborne’s current pending election lawsuit in Virginia. Interesting. Cross checking signatures with addresses seems to be new this year.
Maybe that's why Gingrich and Perry didn't get to 15K.
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 10:14AM EST (link)They tried to do it the honest way.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
It cost $30,000 to $100,000 to gather 15,000 signatures??
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 10:45AM EST (link)No wonder Newt didn’t have the money to invest starting in August when Romney and Ron Paul were starting their petitioning effort.
If you take the high end of that cost estimate and had every state requiring the same number of petitions as VA – that’s $5million just to get on the ballots. Considering most of these signatures would need to be gathered before even the Iowa Caucuses, that would be almost entirely limiting the primary to candidates who are well funded from the start.
As to Fred Thompson getting 15,000 signatures, where did you find that information? Is their a site that has records of the raw number of unchecked signatures from every candidate since 2000?
I wouldn't adhere to a single idea submitted by teme or thirstyboots in these RedState rooms
sunshinek67 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:02AM EST (link)unless fact checker is installed by the moderators.
I think this whole ballot-gate debacle backfires not only on VA GOP, but Mitt Romney as well, a candidate that has a substantial bankroll and yet his name is synonymous with political loser, also-ran. His minions are out in full force though, on t.v., internet pushing their Romney “inevitable electable” agenda. Doesn’t match with his record though. How is it that his millions of dollars has not translated into more elected office positions? Perhaps, he should run as a moderate Democrat, or as an independent. The left of center tends to like their politicians coreless and pseudo-intellectual.
I've imagined Romney started calling himself a Republican because it meant less competition in Massachusetts.
clowngirl (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:41AM EST (link)If you looked just as his performance as Governor and didn’t know the name or party affiliation of the executive, you would probably think you were looking at the record of a Democrat.
I agree with you about this backfiring on Romney and hope it’s not just wishful thinking.
I'd thought it was because his daddy was a GOPer in Michigan, clowngirl...
acat (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:50AM EST (link)Wikipedia has this to say about George Romney who clearly was a GOPer in the Rockefeller model …
This may have been a reasonable model when George was running Michigan, but .. not so much these days.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
I'd think so too
Common_Cents (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 2:41PM EST (link)If you are scrambling for enough signatures, hiring contractors etc…I’d expect a higher rejection rate.
If we look at the big picture, the process is supposed to limit unserious candidates. I’d think anyone would say Perry and Gingrich are serious candidates. Even if they are to blame. Something does need to get done to get them in the race.
Possibly putting them on the ballot and should they win, penalize them the same % delegates they get by the % they are short of 10,000 signatures.
Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from,
behind, the Back Nine.Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.
The DNC has given the DPVA
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 25th at 3:24PM EST (link)waivers since the 2004 elections, that require only 5,000 ballot signatures. That is from the Va Democrat site Even though it was a VA Democrat legislature that imposed the state election rules back in 1999, their main political arm, the DNC, has granted waivers to their Democrat candidates since 2004. Yes the states set the rules, but if the DNC can grant waivers, then so can the RNC. I’m wondering if the RNC might get involved in this travesty, as it has made the entire party look foolish. The very worst part of it all is the connection between a candidate, and the upper uppers in VA government. I’m still looking for any information on who the volunteers were that validated the signatures, how many signatures were thrown out, why those signatures were thrown out, and how they managed to verify that many signatures on a data base in so little time. If you read my link concerning the volunteers that did the validation, I think you would be as horrified as me.
Bad Optics Indeed
standingonthewall Sunday, December 25th at 10:47AM EST (link)Any way you slice it, no matter whose fault, this is bad for the GOP, especially the VA GOP. Only Romney and Paul on the ballot is just absurd.
Lets Get Real Here
btpull Sunday, December 25th at 12:03PM EST (link)It is not up to the State GOP to determine who or who is not on the ballot. The State Board of Elections publishes the ballot access rules based on State law; they, also, validate that the requirements have been met to be on the ballot.
Following is a link to the ballot access requirement adopted on May 25, 2011 in VA:
http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/documents/Cidates/Bulletins/20120306PrimaryBulletin.pdf
The State Board of Elections did state “…it is recommended that 15,000 – 20,000 signatures be obtained with at least 700 signatures from each congressional district.”
So Romney should withdrew from the race in VA because he followed the State’s recommendation, while Perry and Newt did not; why?
btpull
tailfins1959 Sunday, December 25th at 2:33PM EST (link)Why, you ask? It would have a good chance to clinch the nomination for Romney. This fiasco makes Perry and Gingrich look like the Keystone Kops. The final outcome of the Virginia mess is of secondary importance. Don’t forget the PR instead of just counting delegates. On initiative petitions a one-third invalid signature rate is often assumed.
You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf
not so random after reading scope, bzip, et al on VA ballot
lizzie Sunday, December 25th at 1:47PM EST (link)1) glad to hear from bzip that Perry is consistent with ‘no excuses. it is what it is.’ which is what he said to Kathy O in their Iowa DMReg video interview when Perry finally admitted he was tired in the ealry debates due to his back surgery.
2) a 20% invalid rate for Perry in VA does sound suspect, but, the entire VA process seems designed to keep people off the ballot. It is the Dem way to prevent primary challenges, and I was wondering if the VA GOP is following that lead in order to ‘anoint’ George Allen for the Senate GOP nomination. (if I voted in VA, and my choice was between Kaine and Allen, and Obama and Romney, I would spend election day draped in black at Mount Vernon.
3) to the commenter from New York about ballot access? very few people live in doorman buildings. I have a neighbor who came knocking for ballot access signatures fro Congress and State Assembly – incumbents who needed 2,000 signatures on a a simple form that only required my signature and voting address. No special 2-sided form needing last four digits of my SSN (I would never do that bit), let alone a special notary. For NY statewide contests, the Democrats decided to anoint candidates after Andrew Cuomo scorched earth primary challenge against Carl McCall in 2002.
4) About Scott Brown and Martha Coakeley? I was spending time in Mass during that contest. 40%+ of Mass voters are independents, which is why Mass so often elects a GOP governor. Scott Brown won because he did retail all over the state. He ran terrific tv ads, from his kitchen, to introduce himself. Scott Brown had started his political career as an UNPAID town selectman – in a state where most small towns and villages continue to have that form of local, citizen government. And then Obama flew in to campaign for Coakeley, and she was burnt toast, elitist condescending snob that she is. Obama only returns to Mass for no-media fundraisers.
BTW, I have no stats, but looks like Scott Brown gave GMC truck sales a huge bump – my lawyer neighbor, whose service as unpaid selectman saved our village from a huge scandal that tore this village of 1,600 apart – dumped his old Saab for a GMC pick-up. Kind of wish he would run for Congress now that far left Olver is retiring. Massachusetts is only ‘deep blue’ because college students vote here, and college is #1 industry in Mass.
5) the Senate contests will drive turnout in 2012, especially if no-enthusiasm Romney is running against no-enthusiasm Obama.
6) As for Bachmann, Santorum, and Huntsman? I believe Huntsman started out intending to be a serious national candidate, with his office in Orlando, FL, and his announcement at Liberty Stat Park in NJ, but the money dried up quickly, and he decided to focus on NH. Even so, most pundits thought he was really running to be next-in-line, or Sec State.
Santorum thought he could be another Huckabee blasting out of Iowa. No further comment except that I do think Santorum is mostly trying to find a real job out of all this, in someone’s cabinet. Again, no comment.
Bachmann is a true believer, and I believe she also thought she could be the new Huckabee, or maybe a VP contender. My first encounter was hearing Bachmann in a House hearing in 2008 on mark-to-market accounting. I was very impressed, and still am, except for her position on the debt ceiling vote, which concerns me because of rule #1: the bond markets rule.
Back to Gov. Perry. Maybe I am the only disillusioned Dem who WANTS to vote for him, but I still maintain he has the best chance at beating Obama, and not just in the traditional 12 swing states.
But, I am certain this is Perry’s sole shot – I doubt he will run again in 2016.
2012 IS the last chance to get America working again.
If Obama wins because the GOP nominates Romney, and Ron Paul does NOT run a 3rd party campaign, 2016 will be when Rick Perry endorses Bobby Jindal, if anyone wants the job by then.
Happy holidays to all – except for the Virgina GOP, who deserve no respect from anyone. (and I thought the NY Dem machine was bad!)
Bachmann
wingnut43 Sunday, December 25th at 6:35PM EST (link)Perry killed Bachmann’s support early on by competing for largely the same voters, and the whole debt ceiling debacle made her seem too fringe. You can’t go from a deficit of 1.6 trillion straight to zero without causing the greatest Depression of all time, and most voters know this. She didn’t play that episode very well at all. She should have made a better effort to explicitly link the debt ceiling increase to the defunding of ObamaCare, instead of pretending that not raising it will do the country any good.
Two Cans Short of a Sixpack
tripwhipper Sunday, December 25th at 4:39PM EST (link)Any state, such as Virginia, whose “rules” prevent their own citizens from voting for the leading candidate of their choice, among them one who leads the polls in that state, is seriously flawed. This is not what the founders and framers envisioned for America, states that frustrated their own citizens from voting their will and conscience.
a duck, a chicken, and a turkey walked into an Iowa Pizza Ranch
lizzie Sunday, December 25th at 8:16PM EST (link)so sorry – I just watched Chris Wallace’ Sunday talk show, and was depressed that the panel seems resigned that Romney will be the GOP nominee, and will lose…
that I came back online to see if any more insights into this Virginia version of
a Turducken joke impacting the outcome of the Iowa caucus, except that, once you look at photos of a real Turducken, it actually looks very elegant and delicious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turducken
I had just read about the Iowa Pizza Ranch chain, and why so many campaign events are held in those restaurants, and am very concerned this Virginia story might impact Iowans?
Ron Paul is like a Daffy Duck,
Mitt Romney does not have the spine to play chicken in one of his (how many?) cars,
and America’s wild Turkey, much smarter than the genetically inbred factory species, was Benjamin Franklin’s tongue-in-cheek nominee for official bird of the new USA: “…He is besides, though a little vain & silly, a Bird of Courage, and would not hesitate to attack a Grenadier of the British Guards who should presume to invade his Farm Yard with a red Coat on.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Turkey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_birds
(heh, the state bird of Minnesota is the Common Loon)
The ten-day weather forecast for Cedar Rapids, Iowa is for clear skies, and above-freezing temperatures, so maybe turnout will be unusually high just so Iowans can keep the Paulbots from scaring everyone else.
And, before January 3, Virginia will have revealed how they managed to do all this signature checking in what appears to be two hours ????
In 2000, 2004, and 2008 signatures on petitions were not checked or challenged
deVere Monday, December 26th at 12:24AM EST (link)http://www.ballot-access.org/2011/12/25/virginia-2011-independent-candidate-for-legislature-has-big-impact-on-2012-presidential-primary/
What would be quite 'poetic' with the VA mess...
Dave_A (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 12:50AM EST (link)Is if the GOP nominee is ‘locked in’ before VA even votes….
(Kind of like how McCain was a ‘lock’ after Super Tuesday back in 08….
Formerly known as dcacklam – they finally fixed my access to the ‘profile’ page
People VA is 50 del, or 10% of super tuesday
center77 (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 2:50AM EST (link)it is very unlikley it will be a huge issue unless it is close at the end, and then Romney will suffer bad because it will be an uhnfair practice that helped him. Now I just think all the talk about this being the end is to ealry. Paul will win the state as a protest vote. If they do not fix it that is.
My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
http://www.timothy-bladel.com/
I’m a proud supporter of Rick Perry. God Bless everyone.
“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewll adress (January 11, 1989)
I agree Center.
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 9:04AM EST (link)This isn’t over. Not one vote has been cast and the way these primaries are going I would believe nothing is impossible. So we will just keep praying and rooting for Perry.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
Wait.....
usastandup Monday, December 26th at 8:53AM EST (link)I just found 4000 signatures in my trunk!
LOL,Usastandup....
romansdaughter Monday, December 26th at 9:17AM EST (link)Good one!
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t,than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus
“Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” Alexander Hamilton
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
” He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim Elliot
We have the Lautenberg precedent to put Gingrich and Perry on the VA ballot
tailfins1959 Monday, December 26th at 9:08AM EST (link)If it deemed that the ballot rules don’t give the voters a fair choice, those rules can be set aside in court to produce fairness. I see that as the line of reasoning Perry and Gingrich will use to get on the ballot. I think they will succeed using exactly that path.
You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf
I really don't like that precedent....
nathanalbright (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:27AM EST (link)…but it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s exactly what is done by both Newt and Perry. And I wouldn’t be surprised if the rules themselves are either scrapped or dramatically changed in the future.
What's not to like about ballot access
Freedoms Truth (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 11:57AM EST (link)We the people have nothing to lose when additional choices are put on the ballot.
If the people dont want that choice, they dont vote.
Rules are for keeping
When a rule creates confusion or chaos or an obviously flawed result, it will get tossed and rightly so. and surely, a campaign that spends tens of thousands of dollars and produces 12,000 signatures and has polling data to show they will win delegates, should get on the ballot. to be told “No, this is not good enough because the addresses werent notarized correctly, and no you cant fix it now because we decided to wait until the deadline to tell you. go away.” is Kafkaesque.
That’s a crazy bureaucratic maze not a rational way to qualify for a ballot.
I have to agree. If Lautenberg could get on the ballot (breaking every rule in the book to get there) ANYBODY can and should.
Freedoms Truth,
Travis Monitor – http://travismonitor.blogspot.com
Austin, TX
Perry and/or Gingrich can take this to court
Scope (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:48AM EST (link)I’ve read so many times that the purpose of getting candidates on state ballots in any state is to show organization and “grassroots” support from the voters in that state. Reading some of the articles being written by some who claim to be “party insiders” they are saying that the failures of Perry and Gingrich are because they obviously don’t have organizations, and apparently any grassroots support in the state. From an article at Ballot Access, there are a good number of state courts who have ruled that ballot canvassers must be residents of that state, and in some cases even residents of the counties where they have collected signatures. Isn’t that what grassroots means, that local and state voters support that particular candidate and are willing to sign a ballot to get them qualified? Maryland and Mass. canvassers don’t vote in the VA primary.
I believe I read an article about Lt Gov. Bill Bolling, Romney’s campaign chair saying that Romney’s team sent people from out of state to help in doing the canvassing. I’m going to see if I can find that article again. I know I read that Bolling “loaned” his campaign people to Romney. Obviously Bolling, being the current Lt. Gov. has more than an in with the VA GOP, as they worked to help him get elected to his current position in 2009. Isn’t that what the state GOP or Dem. parties do? Bolling is attached at the hip to the VA GOP, who were in charge of validating the ballots. If that isn’t a conflict of interest, I don’t know what is.
In any case, if Romney sent people from out of state to collect signatures, from what I’m reading that can be challenged in court. I understand those past challenges were all upheld, and that out of state campaign workers cannot work out of their own home states. They are not grassroots support.
Simple Solution:
johnconradarens (Diary) Monday, December 26th at 9:49AM EST (link)The national GOP should simply refuse to seat the delegates from Virginia. With a public pronouncement to this effect, that might move things off the dime.
They can seat whomever they want, by the way. This would be the most fair, by the way. If they have no mechanism for an effective write-in vote, then it’s the only way to insure folks aren’t disenfranchised, too.