Time:
The controversy over Republican Representative Joe Wilson’s shouting “You lie!” at the President over his claim that illegal immigrants wouldn’t benefit from health-care reform apparently sparked some reconsideration of the relevant language. “We really thought we’d resolved this question of people who are here illegally, but as we reflected on the President’s speech last night, we wanted to go back and drill down again,” said Senator Kent Conrad, one of the Democrats in the talks after a meeting Thursday morning. Later that afternoon, Baucus said the group would add a proof-of-citizenship requirement for participation in the new health exchange — a move likely to inflame the left.
Wilson wins, Ben. Oddly, in much the same way that another particular dispute was won by THAT WOMAN.
See also Hot Air, Ace of Spades, Sister Toldjah, and - for that special extra flavor of whiny Lefty exasperation, TPMDC:
But though Wilson’s allegation was false, and the political impact has been largely negative, Democratic leaders on the Senate Finance Committee seem to think it’s worth fixing the non-existent problem Wilson was complaining about.
Seldom does one see a sentence quite so at war with itself as this one is.
Moe Lane
PS: Yeah, kids: I saw the Democratic flash poll, and I saw that the current state of the potlatch is at, what, $750K at this point? Alas, I also saw Wood & Sabato’s current estimate of the GOP’s likely gains next year (20 to 30, and Wilson’s not on their competitive races list). This just isn’t a cycle to topple a R+9 incumbent. Particularly since none of the people currently at white-hot levels of hatred are going to remember his opponent’s name in two weeks.
Or possibly even one.
PPS: I tell a lie. AMERICAblog is even whinier than TPMDC.
Crossposted to Moe Lane.
Steve Maley
KnightsofMalta
They're not fixing it; it's a shell game to hide it better
bk (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 5:48PM EST (link)Let me put it this way. I’ll pose a couple of hypothetical questions that no Democrat will dare answer.
1. A Mexican worker is here illegally; He works hard all week, then celebrates Friday with the cash he gets paid. After a couple beers he wrecks the car he’s driving with no driver’s license and no insurance. He is badly injured. Which of the following will happen under this bill?
a) He is stabilized and then transported back to Mexico.
b) He receives all the medical care he needs for free for as long as it takes for him to recover.
2. A Mexican woman crosses the bridge from Nuevo Laredo to Laredo in order to go shopping. It just so happens she is nine months pregnant. She goes straight to the hearest hospital ER. Which of the following will happen under this bill?
a) She is transported back to the border so she can receive care at home.
b) She and the soon-to-be American citizen are given all the free care they want.
And just to show it’s not merely a matter of illegal immigrants….
3. We’ve seen stories recently about people who have called 911 for ambulance transport hundreds of times and gotten taken to the nearest ER even though nothing serious was wrong with them. Which of the following will happen under this bill?
a) EMS refuses to show up or refuses to transport and is protected from liability for repeat offenders like these.
b) They continue to get free ambulance rides and free visits to the ER.
4. We’ve been told one of the reasons for health reform is that too many people whether citizens or not use ERs as their only point of contact and they never see regular doctors. Which of the following will happen under this bill?
a) They will be turned away at ERs and given a list of nearby clinics and GPs, with the hospital protected from liability.
b) They will continue to get unlimited free care at the ER just like they did before.
Anyone with half a brain knows damn good and well that the answer to every one of these questions and dozens other we could dream up is b), so this bill won’t even fix any of the things that it is supposed to fix. But it will certainly screw up lots of other things along the way.
Well put, bk.
Flagstaff (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 8:29PM EST (link)In case somebody out there hasn’t already noticed, The One is using the tried-and-true Clinton strategy of making statements that are technically true, perhaps only in a certain way in which “is” means “was,” but which his sycophants can twist to prove that he didn’t “lie” (technically, that is).
E.g., “HR 3200 doesn’t create any ‘death panels’ and nobody is going to pull the plug on Granny.” Technically perhaps a true statement, but the emanations and penumbras of the bill will result in bureaucratic decision-making when it comes to who gets treatment and who does not. In the end, somebody other than the individual and his family may decide whether he gets life sustaining treatment or not.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
And "the word 'abortion' doesn't appear anywhere in this bill" nt
bk (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 9:02PM EST (link)of course they are all "b"!
nylib Tuesday, September 15th at 10:53AM EST (link)#1 is probably a fairly common occurrence, so it’s a good example. he should of course get emergency care, i’m sure you’re not saying he should die by the side of the road because he’s illegal… he should get the care he needs and he should pay what he can afford, like in the rest of the civilized world. and overall, the amount of money the healthcare system spends on illegals who have been injured is less than a drop in the bucket. the real problem is the overall high cost of care that is killing us all, literally.
and, if you want to start deporting illegals, go ahead and try, but you know you don’t have the votes. meanwhile, you are never going to find the political support to deport a guy just because he was in a car accident and needs medical care… i mean, just in a practical sense, how are we going to determine his immigration status on the spot like that anyway? who is going to be responsible for the decision? i don’t think you’ve really thought this one through, because what you are proposing is entirely impractical.
i guess you guys really don’t care about that latino vote, the fastest-growing group in the country. but i don’t know how you’re gonna win back the presidency without it.
#2 probably doesn’t happen much, if at all, so it’s not really a good example of anything. but a woman about to give birth should be admitted immediately into a hospital, no questions asked. again, this is a miniscule cost overall, and not anything to spend any time on.
now #3 & #4 are real problems. this situation is one of the things driving costs in general. the solution is universal health care. when people have options, they avoid the ER – i do, i’m sure you do, too. the ER is miserable – slow, crowded, expensive, and you can’t choose your doctor. people who can afford to go to the doctor, who know enough to go to the doctor, take care of small problems before they become big ones. but until everyone has that kind of coverage, we have to continue to take all comers in the ER and on 911. who is gonna make the call on who needs emergency care and who doesn’t? nobody’s gonna take that job… so until coverage is universal, #3  are “b”, too.
btw, if you have ever been to a foreign country, you know if you have a problem they will treat you, no questions asked, at little or no cost. they don’t ask if you’re there legally or not. we should do the same.
Holy Hell,
Leopard1996 (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 6:24PM EST (link)That lefty quote, twisted him/herself in in such a pretzel, I wonder if they are going to need back surgery.
I hope they have insurance.
“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen
Proof of Citizenship
Vannek Friday, September 11th at 6:40PM EST (link)What kind of proof of citizenship? I know of several places where I can get fake drivers licenses, Social Security cards, etc. Illegals get them all the time in California.
Wilson does win
proudgop (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 7:34PM EST (link)because its all anyone is talking about. The Dems aren’t even talking about Obama’s speech its all about Wilson.
they only work if no one checks them
streiff (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 8:23PM EST (link)but even were your rather ridiculous statement actually true, are you saying not checking documents is preferable?
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I think his point was that
Flagstaff (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 8:32PM EST (link)proof is necessary, but it needs to be real proof.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
Kowalski:
Flagstaff (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 8:40PM EST (link)He also implied that there is no way under current law to prevent illegals from being treated under HR 3200. Thus, The One had to be lying when he claimed the opposite.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
A real problem
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 8:33PM EST (link)Vannek
Several solutions have been offered up on making a secure form for proof of citizenship for verifications and they all look appealing except for one question. How do you balance the guarantees of unreasonable searches in the 4th amendment of the US constitution with this other need. I’m not sure I have the answer, and I’m not all that keen on a national ID card, but maybe that is what it will take to answer this question. Maybe being asked to show proof of citizenship is not an unresolvable burden, many would argue with that view by the way, but that’s one of the other real issues that does not get talked about much.
If you’ve got a better idea, what is it?
______________________________________
Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
Where ideals meet reality
Vannek Saturday, September 12th at 12:04AM EST (link)While working on a Masters of Public Administration degree, I had the opportunity to interact with several other students who worked for local social services agencies. The majority admitted that it is their job and their mission to help people who are in need. This usually means ignoring “inconvenient” regulations. Some were even proud of willfully violating them–think Acorn prostitution and tax advisors–in order to provide “justice” to the “powerless.”
Even if some type of documentation were required it would be hard, if not impossible, to convince doctors and other caregivers not to provide services to anyone in need (see BK’s comments in the first post). My best friend is a nurse, and she insists that she would not waste her time asking for proof of citizenship if someone needed care. Illegals might be prevented from accessing preventive and routine services without proof of citizenship, but hospitals would not be able to turn them away in emergency situations, and the taxpayers would still end up paying for their care.
Wilson, with two words, gained control of a converstion
Old_Crow (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 8:50PM EST (link)that took Obama 47 minutes to teleprompter through. Sure, the Dems will try to create more loopholes, but at least Wilson got the conversation focused on the issue. And he did it with two words.
Obama is losing control.
Palin, with her Facebook postings, continues to out maneuver the Obama administration – keeping them reactive vice proactive.
Now Wilson, with two words, gained control of the President’s speech on health care.
“Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm.” — James Madison
750,000K in 48hrs
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 9:08PM EST (link)The Dem has raised a million, but Wilson will catch him
Time magazine is still a piece of
Flagstaff (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 9:14PM EST (link)work.
Ladies and gentlemen, there is NO WAY TO MAKE THIS BILL REVENUE NEUTRAL. It has few if any mechanisms for collecting taxes and fees, certainly nothing compared to the gigantic expenses it would incur. Claiming to “use savings” from cleaning waste and fraud out of Medicare, a completely different program, does NOT MAKE IT REVENUE NEUTRAL, in any way that revenue neutrality is generally understood, which is “self-sustaining.” Cleaning waste and fraud from Medicare would make Medicare less expensive, but it no more makes HR 3200 revenue neutral than it makes the National Forest Service more profitable.
And imposing new taxes to pay for it that are unrelated to health care doesn’t count, either. If those taxes are practical and productive, they could be used to pay down the ALREADY OUT OF CONTROL DEFICIT!
Sadly, if new taxes are imposed to pay for HR 3200 or its spawn, the result will be to EXPAND the deficit, not to reduce it. That’s the penalty for forgetting the lessons of the 1980′s. Time might consider at least mentioning those concepts.
Wow. The “divisive” word (probably mentally mispronounced with a short i as he typed) and “sniffing” by a Republican in the same paragraph. Collins sniffed while “Democrats like Senator Chuck Schumer ‘challenged….’” Very balanced treatment, I’d say… NOT.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
Dear representative Wilson
JoeG Friday, September 11th at 10:02PM EST (link)Please come to this site; you’re the kind of Republican we want here!
I will donate to your campaign as soon as you’re website is up and running. I’ve tried several times today and have been unable.
GREAT WORK, WILSON!
GT350 Friday, September 11th at 10:23PM EST (link)Now, let’s go after the White House with this one. I thought Obama said private insurance wouldn’t be affected. Someone should yell at the President, but even louder this time, and maybe he’ll drop the whole healthcare plan.
From the NYT:
The White House said that illegal immigrants would still be able to purchase health insurance through the private market, as they can now, but acknowledged that the private market was certain to shrink after the creation of the new marketplace.
Lord help us..
smitch61 Saturday, September 12th at 1:02AM EST (link)Great, but I unfortunately do not trust the GOP,,, not all of them anyway.. They will assist in ushering socialized medicine.
The HR 3200's New Clothes
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Saturday, September 12th at 2:44AM EST (link)The cost/benefit analysis of Joe Wilson's shout
1SGinTN (Diary) Saturday, September 12th at 4:58AM EST (link)shows it in the positive column, seems to me. liberals talk bad about him – so what. It gets the rest of us more fired up and sucks all the oxygen out of the room, leaving the President gasping for air. Also, now has the Dems backtracking on the actual facts.
Today I witnessed my first (and last) full Rachael Maddow broadcast. She was snarking and pronouncing her esteemed opinion on the Conrad/Baucus backtrack. Darn shame so few recognize her legislative credentials. Heh.
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
LIAR IN CHIEF
benrush (Diary) Saturday, September 12th at 7:05AM EST (link)Congratulations to Representative Joe Wilson of South Carolina. You should apologize for unpleasant conduct on the House floor only if Barry also apologizes for lying to all Americans. That will set the record straight. Only this week ,subcommittees in the house are trying to write language into HR 3400 that prohibit government paid abortions and free coverage for illegal aliens. How many counts of perjury does that make ? Not to mention ALL the rest. Joe, you were a naughty boy, but correct and you said what many people felt. Most of us are very proud of you. Barry is a LIAR. Of course, liar used to describe Barry demeans the word. He is beneath the term and it use actually elevates him. He is more vile, disgusting, obscene and treacherous than humanly possible. New words will have to be created to accurately describe Barry, which will apply only to him. He is far worse than any epitaph in the English or any language.