Let’s walk through the mercury problem (H/T: Instapundit).
- Automakers used mercury as a component for various auto systems until 2004.
- They stopped because mercury is toxic, and it gets into stuff that we eat (the actual level of risk is in fact not relevant for this discussion).
- People get very touchy about toxic elements being thrown out with the rest of the garbage, so there’s an industry designed around collecting the mercury at the end of a car’s life. The big (only?) one of these is ELV Solutions.
- Here’s a list of the car companies that work with ELV Solutions. Notice which car company isn’t on the list?
- That’s right: GM isn’t on the list. They exited the program at the beginning of August.
- Autoblog Green calls the reason why “convoluted,” but it’s not. There are now two GMs. Good GM is the one with good assets and a chance of actually making money; Bad GM is the one with all the garbage assets, bad debts, and onerous obligations.
- Good GM does not make cars using mercury, and technically never has (its predecessor Old GM did, not it), so it sees no particular reason why it should fund mercury recovery.
- Bad GM… doesn’t make anything, or indeed do much of anything except sit there and slowly decompose; but Bad GM is the one that ELV Solutions needs to talk to about funding mercury recovery.
- No, Bad GM doesn’t have any money. Money is a good asset, which is why Bad GM doesn’t have any of it.
- No, ELV Solutions is not able to break even on mercury reclamation. If you could do that, ELV Solutions wouldn’t exist: the car companies would have done the job themselves and directly.
- So now we come to the Cash-for-Clunkers program, which has suddenly put a large number of pre-2004 cars up for immediate destruction (and mercury reclamation). A lot of those cars were built by the Old GM.
- ELV Solutions is thus stuck for reclaiming the mercury of a major car company’s old vehicles, without getting funded by that car company.
- And, given that there’s no GM ‘flavor’ of mercury, or GM-only junkyards, ELV Solutions is really stuck for reclaiming the mercury a major car company’s old vehicles, without getting funded by that car company.
One last thing, and please note this carefully: none of this is a bug. The intent all along was to shunt money-hemorrhaging expenses like mercury reclamation to a zombie company that could go belly-up without also killing General Motors. So don’t expect the administration to do anything about this. Although I suspect that the hand of the government that was establishing the GM reorganization [did not know] what the hand that was putting together Cash-for-Clunkers was doing… which may mean that (depending on how this all turns out) a seafood diet may be contraindicated again for a couple of years.
Moe Lane
Crossposted to Moe Lane.
[Updated for clarity.]
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This sucks...
speciallist (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 3:49PM EST (link)My wife is Already scared to buy tuna….and subway tuna sucks….
I have to buy pre-made tuna sandwiches at 7-11 now….
Barry, you suck!
Not to worry
bk (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 3:53PM EST (link)Under Obamacare your preexisting condition of mercury poisoning will not be a disqualifying factor, so if you live long enough to see a Government doctor you might have a chance at treatment.
If you own a car with mercury in it
cclive Monday, August 31st at 3:58PM EST (link)isn’t it your responsibility or whoever buys your car next? Why would it be GM’s responsibility? As long as the company didn’t illegally use mercury switches then they aren’t at fault and its the owners problem. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.
If they trade in their car who owns it cclive. nt
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maybe the cash for clunkers paperwork
bk (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 4:08PM EST (link)had some fine print saying that the person getting the rebate swears that they had removed and properly disposed of the mercury before turning the car over. Nothing would surprise me any more under this administration.
The person they traded it to -nt
cclive Monday, August 31st at 4:11PM EST (link)You mean the dealer, or corp...not person right cclive? nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 4:19PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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If you trade your car in to a dealership
cclive Monday, August 31st at 4:24PM EST (link)they take ownership of the car. No?
So who's responsibility is it to take care of mercury disposal? nt
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Actually its the responsibility of the
cclive Monday, August 31st at 4:47PM EST (link)scrap yard that is contracted by the dealership. But you knew this.
Btw, Whats your point? -nt
cclive Monday, August 31st at 4:48PM EST (link)Just trying to figure out why you said this is a personal responsibility issue...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 4:53PM EST (link)Seems that all of this falls under the responsibility of a Corporation of some sort.
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No, thats not correct.
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:16PM EST (link)If you decide to scrap your own car, that is, dismantle it for parts in your driveway, sell what you can and toss the rest, then it is YOUR responsibility, although disposal of household hazardous materials is slightly more lenient if you were to throw out a couple mercury tilt switches, but nonetheless it would be YOUR responsibility to abide by the law.
And while GM is turning into a junk company, it most likely is not the scrap yard contracted by the dealership. That scrap company could be solely owned and operated by a single individual and it would be their personal responsibility.
But you are arguing semantics. The main point is “Why would it be GM’s responsibility?” They are not the one scrapping the car.
cclive, I am not arguing semantics...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:21PM EST (link)This post is about the effect of cash for clunkers on the mercury reclamation. So unless private citizens are taking trade-in clunkers.
Oh and what law are you talking about. From what I read this is a voluntary program in all but 12 States?
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So you are saying an individual
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:25PM EST (link)can’t solely own and operate a scrap company?
No. Why are you moving the goal posts cclive? nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:29PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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I'm not
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:33PM EST (link)Would an individual who solely owns and operates their own scrap company have a personal responsibility to dispose of mercury properly? A simple yes or no question that will settle this.
Since that has no bearing to this debate I won't be answering that cclive. nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:35PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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Of course not.
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:42PM EST (link)I understand.
It was time to invoke
Flagstaff (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:46PM EST (link)the Hinz Rule.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
actually, you are.
randy streu (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:41PM EST (link)you originally said, “If you owned the car, isn’t it your responsibility or whoever buys your car next? Why would it be GM’s responsibility?”
THEN, when called on the personal responsibility angle, you argued as though “individuals owning scrap companies” was always a part of your argument. It wasn’t.
That is the definition of “moving the goal posts.” Textbook even. If I wanted to write a book on logical fallacies in argument and given an example of “moving the goal posts,” I don’t think I could do much better.
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5 nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:42PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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If you are the one
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:50PM EST (link)deciding it is going to be scrapped. If you are not scrapping the car then it won’t make sense to remove mercury switches from say your ABS. The main point which seems lost because you are hung up on semantics is “Why would it be GM’s responsibility?”
Because they own the cars...how hard is that for you to understand? nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:52PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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A few reasons:
randy streu (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:55PM EST (link)Mostly, because THEY are taking the trade. I don’t get to decide what they’re going to do with it once they trade it. I’m not scrapping the car — I’m trading it in. Therefore, if something is to be done about the Mercury, it is incumbent on the buyer, who is making the decision about WHAT to do with the trade-in.
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Kowalski: I like how, instead of admitting you were wrong...
randy streu (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:58PM EST (link)after being shown how you moved the goal posts (after you denied it, thereby inviting argument), you blamed US for arguing semantics. Are you sure you aren’t a liberal? Because you kinda argue like one.
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This character's "period key"
Flagstaff (Diary) Tuesday, September 1st at 2:22PM EST (link)on his computer is practically unused. But he’s on his third “question mark.”
He must be one of Neil’s or Moe’s pets.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
So its not GM's responsibility, correct? -nt
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:59PM EST (link)You cannot be any more incorrect. nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 6:01PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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How on earth did you take that from what I said?
randy streu (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 6:01PM EST (link)Yes, it is gm’s responsibility, because THEY are takign the trade and THEY (NOT the previous owner) are deciding to scrap it.
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Here is the deal as I see it,
Leopard1996 (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 6:14PM EST (link)1. The Government through the cash for clunkers program mandated that these cars get scrapped instead of resold. Right or wrong?
2. There is only one company that all of the other car companies paid money to so that the mercury can be disposed of. The one company that did not, is the new General Motors.
3. I am sure that the new General Motors benefited from those 4500 dollar checks coming from the government as well as the car sale. Yet they have no money going into this ELV Solutions thing to reclaim the mercury from the junked clunker.
4. Therefore another government program not fully though out, and for the sake of one industry (Car companies) another car company got raked over the coals.
So your argurements are garbage. Have a nice day.
“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen
Maybe if you weren't in such a rush to stick up for Obama...
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:32PM EST (link)…You wouldn’t have missed the point of Moe’s post so embarrasingly badly cclive.
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I see his point but I think it is off mark
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:41PM EST (link)It isn’t GM’s responsibility. Its like if I bought a mercury thermometer from CVS and then wanted them(if they manufactured it) to properly dispose of it for me. Its unfair to the business. And then if I say well I only bought it cause the CDC told me to prepare for the flu season so its really the CDC’s fault, they are to blame.
Thats some grossly extrapolated blame chain that attempts to lift responsibility from everyone who participated.
No, you missed the point entirely
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:49PM EST (link)You always jump in for the Democrats and against everybody here.
Why is that?
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How is that supporting the Democrats? -nt
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:51PM EST (link)If you have to ask, you missed the point
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:52PM EST (link)Or you’re just being deliberately obtuse.
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I guess I missed the point
cclive Monday, August 31st at 5:58PM EST (link)Isn’t part of the post critical of GM for not meeting its obligations for helping dispose of mercury?
You're evading the point of this article
civil truth (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:59PM EST (link)This has to do with government interfering in private markets and creating bigger problems from ill-conceived programs designed to “help”.
1) The government takes over a private company (GM) and screws private bond holders to pay off union supporters who will give them donations out of this taxpayer money
2) The government splits off “bad GM” to screw claimsholders
3) The government engages in this “cash for clunkers programs” that damages private markets for used cars and on top of which has no provision for the mercury clean-up costs that the private markets have mechanisms in place for – which the government disturbed by 2).
At least that’s what I’m reading. Your musings on individual responsibility here has been superceded by the rules regarding auto disposal.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Never ascribe to evil what can be blamed on stupidity
Raven (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 4:05PM EST (link)In other words:
I don’t think this was a planned outcome of the government take-over. I think they did Not know what they were doing and are now wondering why all the mercury is hitting the fan…
But that’s just My two cents…
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
Smoothest transition ever, remember?
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:33PM EST (link)Hope and change.
It’s his fault.
PIN IT TO HIM.
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I didn't say we shouldn't
Raven (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 11:51PM EST (link)I just said I don’t think he’s smart enough for it to be evil.
Whoever is pulling his strings might be, but they seem to just be controlling the broad strokes. That leaves him to completely muck up the details. Which seems to be mucking up the broad strokes pretty well…
…WAIT! Rove is pulling Obama’s strings! It’s the only thing that makes sense! Obama is the “Rovian Candidate!”
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
Speaking of the "good" GM
bk (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 4:15PM EST (link)I guess you also saw that they are investing $300M in saving auto industry jobs … in China! Gee, I wonder where that money could have come from??? Hmmm….
P.S. Not trying to threadjack here. It fits the same thing as what you talked about – the bad GM has no money and is just a paper company with any bad assets of the old GM for suckers (aka bondholder and other investors), while the new GM is awash with taxpayer bailout cash and can do anything it damn well pleases.
Let’s see, so far the good GM has helped lead to more closings and layoffs here, is poisoning the environment, is investing in jobs in China, … (I’m sure there are others.)
Does this mean
RJD (Diary) Monday, August 31st at 5:27PM EST (link)I can sue GM/US Government for my 2003 Chevy Malibu?
My own personal bailout. /snark
This has nothing to do with cash for clunkers
rantus rantusmaximus@gmail.com Tuesday, September 1st at 11:39AM EST (link)This has to do with the fact that GM went bankrupt and is being allowed to shirk environmental responsibilities.
"Being allowed"
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, September 1st at 11:44AM EST (link)Nice use of the passive voice to pretend that The Leader, Barack H. Obama, isn’t the one who is *actively* encouraging people with old, Mercury-laden cars to throw them in the trash and buy new ones, and running GM in the way that it is.
Feeling guility for backing him? Embarassed maybe? Good. Do better next time.
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Actually I think this is more about what the Obama administration did by not allowing GM to go into a regular bankruptcy..
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, September 1st at 11:44AM EST (link)If the Obama Administration hadn’t taken over GM they would have had to go through the regular bankruptcy process. During that process the obligations of GM would have been taken into consideration. ELVS would have had a leg to stand on to get paid for the mercury disposal. Since Obama decided he wanted a car company for himself that didn’t happen. Obama screwed ELVS out of money they were and are entitled to. Maybe Obama should cover the cost of this with his own money.
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The central government should...
LDahl752 (Diary) Tuesday, September 1st at 12:13PM EST (link)just stay out of private enterprises. You are so right, Aaron. A regular bankruptcy process would have resolved this far more smoothly. I wonder how big a creditor ELVS was? And, are they actually obligated to continue the reclamation of mercury in old GM cars, even though the current entity dropped out of the program? I’d assume the dealerships accepting the traded-in car would have to pay for that reclamation. Did I miss something?
Linda D, Henderson NV
Enviro-terrorists silent, as usual
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Tuesday, September 1st at 12:24PM EST (link)Mercury in cars…. while we rush to get, in the name of ENERGY, CFL bulbs with it into as many homes as possible over the current standard bulbs. As I keep saying all over, what is next? Lead based Wall paint again – hey, it helps keep in heat!
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Obama said off teleprompter, why should GovtMotors give money to a competitor? (mercury) ;) nt
Common_Cents (Diary) Tuesday, September 1st at 1:47PM EST (link)Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from,
behind, the Back Nine.Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.
More or less?
maxredalia Thursday, September 3rd at 10:45AM EST (link)Is this more or less mercury than the annual 48 tons George Bush allowed into your air & water when he deregulated coal-fired power plants in 2003?
Is it heavier exposure than the mercury in flu shots that his FDA recommended for seniors, children and pregnant women?
No matter how much the auto industry pollutes, it’s not going to match Bush’s record.
Next time, how about including some facts in your story? Like how mercury is FAR more deadly to developing brains of babies, and the fact that injecting mercury into your bloodstream (say, in flu vaccines) is much more dangerous than eating the same amount.
Another proud member of the reality-based community since 1959.
So reading comprehension is now contraindicated for the "reality-based community?
civil truth (Diary) Thursday, September 3rd at 10:59AM EST (link)This article has nothing to do with the health hazards of mecury or industrial pollution and nothing remotely to do with the putative actions of the Bush administration.
Or is it just conditioned reflex for members of the “reality-based community” to respond to any criticism of the Obama administration with some random permutation of “it’s George Bush’s fault”.
Rather this article has to do with another unintended consequences of the government take-over of GM and Chrysler – and in particular the incredibly rushed overriding of existing bankruptcy law that contains the mechanisms for protecting the interests of the environment and the general public (as well as maintaining the rule of law by which people invest capital).
I don’t know how long you’ll last here at RedState, but if you do survive this miserable start of yours, I advise you to try reading the article again and engaging in reasoned discussion of the issues raised.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Note, folks: the next time that a Democrat calls the GOP 'anti-science...'
Moe Lane (Diary) Friday, September 4th at 11:49PM EST (link)…smile sweetly and ask them if they have the guts to tell off their anti-vaccination crowd.
If you can manage it, test them on it. Immediately. Don’t give ‘em a second to weasel out of it, either.
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