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	<title>Comments on: The Democrats have passed the Pelosi-Reid-Obama Debt Plan.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/</link>
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		<title>By: Martin Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10101</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10101</guid>
		<description>Wise men all over the world agree that it is better to not persist in error once one discovers that one is in error - even if it would make young sparks like you throw your noses self-righteously in the air and sniff in disdain at the &quot;hypocrisy&quot; of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wise men all over the world agree that it is better to not persist in error once one discovers that one is in error &#8211; even if it would make young sparks like you throw your noses self-righteously in the air and sniff in disdain at the &#8220;hypocrisy&#8221; of it.</p>
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		<title>By: 6eorge Jetson</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10078</link>
		<dc:creator>6eorge Jetson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 03:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10078</guid>
		<description>If anyone cares to correct or improve on what I was able to find, please do.

The (positive or negative) income of an entity is not found by differencing the debt at the beginning of the year and the end of the year, as that&#039;s not the entire picture.

Assets = Liabilities (debt) + Equity.  For any increase in assets, the corresponding increase in liabilities (debt) is offset.

Per the following investment firm commentary (YMMV)&lt;a href=&quot;http://vestorcapital.com/images/uploads/files/IC01-09.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;See page 2, paragraph 3&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The U.S. federal budget recorded a $164.4 billion deficit in November compared to a $98.2 billion deficit during November 2007. This year’s October and November deficit was only $53.2 billion below the total U.S. Government deficit of $454.8 billion for the entire fiscal year 2008. The projected deficit will be $1.5 trillion inthe next fiscal year ending September 2009, including the $700 billion expense related to the Troubled Asset Relief Program (‘‘TARP’’). &lt;b&gt;However, a large portion of the TARP program is considered to be an investment, not a pure expense, and when any portion of this investment is ultimately recovered; this will reduce the budget deficit in the year any such recovery occurs.&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As noted, for Fiscal Year 2008, the US Govt ran a $454.8 billion deficit.  Subtracting the $700 billion TARP from the projected FY 2009 deficit, we arrive at an estimated $800 billion deficit, the increase very likely due to the deteriorating economy.

Now, note that much of the TARP involves the purchase of newly issued bank securities that are a legal claim to get our money back before it goes to stockholders (preferred stock), provided the bank doesn&#039;t go bankrupt.  As RedState&#039;s own Francis Cianfrocca explains, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.redstate.com/blackhedd/2009/01/13/obama-reinterprets-the-tarp-dont-be-fooled/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an investment is different from a bridge or other non-returnable boondoggle&lt;/a&gt;.

To be intellectually honest, we should start from the 2008 FY deficit as a baseline, account for an adjustment due to the deteriorating economy (Democrats deserve hell for Fannie/Freddie, but that&#039;s out of scope here), and then rightfully pin the full cost of the stimulus on the Dems.  That&#039;s an &quot;unforced error&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone cares to correct or improve on what I was able to find, please do.</p>
<p>The (positive or negative) income of an entity is not found by differencing the debt at the beginning of the year and the end of the year, as that&#8217;s not the entire picture.</p>
<p>Assets = Liabilities (debt) + Equity.  For any increase in assets, the corresponding increase in liabilities (debt) is offset.</p>
<p>Per the following investment firm commentary (YMMV)<a href="http://vestorcapital.com/images/uploads/files/IC01-09.pdf" rel="nofollow">See page 2, paragraph 3</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
The U.S. federal budget recorded a $164.4 billion deficit in November compared to a $98.2 billion deficit during November 2007. This year’s October and November deficit was only $53.2 billion below the total U.S. Government deficit of $454.8 billion for the entire fiscal year 2008. The projected deficit will be $1.5 trillion inthe next fiscal year ending September 2009, including the $700 billion expense related to the Troubled Asset Relief Program (‘‘TARP’’). <b>However, a large portion of the TARP program is considered to be an investment, not a pure expense, and when any portion of this investment is ultimately recovered; this will reduce the budget deficit in the year any such recovery occurs.</b>
</p></blockquote>
<p>As noted, for Fiscal Year 2008, the US Govt ran a $454.8 billion deficit.  Subtracting the $700 billion TARP from the projected FY 2009 deficit, we arrive at an estimated $800 billion deficit, the increase very likely due to the deteriorating economy.</p>
<p>Now, note that much of the TARP involves the purchase of newly issued bank securities that are a legal claim to get our money back before it goes to stockholders (preferred stock), provided the bank doesn&#8217;t go bankrupt.  As RedState&#8217;s own Francis Cianfrocca explains, <a href="http://www.redstate.com/blackhedd/2009/01/13/obama-reinterprets-the-tarp-dont-be-fooled/" rel="nofollow">an investment is different from a bridge or other non-returnable boondoggle</a>.</p>
<p>To be intellectually honest, we should start from the 2008 FY deficit as a baseline, account for an adjustment due to the deteriorating economy (Democrats deserve hell for Fannie/Freddie, but that&#8217;s out of scope here), and then rightfully pin the full cost of the stimulus on the Dems.  That&#8217;s an &#8220;unforced error&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Praveen</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10077</link>
		<dc:creator>Praveen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 03:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10077</guid>
		<description>Do we have a fillibuster option at all? If yes we can try to send out a message for fillibuster. If it doesn&#039;t work we won&#039;t be any worse off. If it goes well... nothing like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do we have a fillibuster option at all? If yes we can try to send out a message for fillibuster. If it doesn&#8217;t work we won&#8217;t be any worse off. If it goes well&#8230; nothing like that.</p>
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		<title>By: $peciallist</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10076</link>
		<dc:creator>$peciallist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 02:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10076</guid>
		<description>?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>?</p>
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		<title>By: IJB</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10075</link>
		<dc:creator>IJB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 02:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10075</guid>
		<description>If they were so inclined, which Senate Republicans clearly *aren&#039;t*. 

These guys couldn&#039;t even manage to vote against Holder - does anyone really think they&#039;s Filibuster this so-called &quot;stimulus&quot;?! 

At this point, the goal should be to get as many Senate Republicans as possible to vote against this. (That probably means we need to hope we can round up 35 &#039;No&#039; votes. As things stand right now, I fear we&#039;d be lucky to get 30...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they were so inclined, which Senate Republicans clearly *aren&#8217;t*. </p>
<p>These guys couldn&#8217;t even manage to vote against Holder &#8211; does anyone really think they&#8217;s Filibuster this so-called &#8220;stimulus&#8221;?! </p>
<p>At this point, the goal should be to get as many Senate Republicans as possible to vote against this. (That probably means we need to hope we can round up 35 &#8216;No&#8217; votes. As things stand right now, I fear we&#8217;d be lucky to get 30&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: csstudent</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10073</link>
		<dc:creator>csstudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10073</guid>
		<description>Actually, if you go to the treasury department&#039;s own web site, the numbers reported for fiscal 2008 are just under a trillion dollars.  I know the official number is 455 billion, but I have no idea where that came from.

You can see the official number here but plugging in October 1, 2007 and ending September 30, 2008 which is the governments fiscal  year.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, if you go to the treasury department&#8217;s own web site, the numbers reported for fiscal 2008 are just under a trillion dollars.  I know the official number is 455 billion, but I have no idea where that came from.</p>
<p>You can see the official number here but plugging in October 1, 2007 and ending September 30, 2008 which is the governments fiscal  year.<br />
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np</p>
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		<title>By: csstudent</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10072</link>
		<dc:creator>csstudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10072</guid>
		<description>Your statement is a brief summary of why the republicans are a minority in the Congress and why a socialist is now president.  It’s a real shame that somebody who wants heretical things like balanced budgets is now an outcast in the republican party.

For the record, I am probably a lot younger than many on this site, but I am out of college now, own a house that I can afford and am successful in my career.  I know many people in my age group who are fiscally conservative and want significantly smaller government but simply do not associate those ideas with republicans.  I certainly don’t.  For example, Ronald Reagan and Bob Dole campaigned on a pledge to eliminate the Department of Education.  GWB gave us no child left behind and doubled the size of that department.  I think that historically, they have talked about fiscal responsibility but have been very irresponsible when the power was presented to do something about it.  That&#039;s why I feel so frustrated now - had they been voting this way over the past 8 years the outcome of the November election would have been very different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your statement is a brief summary of why the republicans are a minority in the Congress and why a socialist is now president.  It’s a real shame that somebody who wants heretical things like balanced budgets is now an outcast in the republican party.</p>
<p>For the record, I am probably a lot younger than many on this site, but I am out of college now, own a house that I can afford and am successful in my career.  I know many people in my age group who are fiscally conservative and want significantly smaller government but simply do not associate those ideas with republicans.  I certainly don’t.  For example, Ronald Reagan and Bob Dole campaigned on a pledge to eliminate the Department of Education.  GWB gave us no child left behind and doubled the size of that department.  I think that historically, they have talked about fiscal responsibility but have been very irresponsible when the power was presented to do something about it.  That&#8217;s why I feel so frustrated now &#8211; had they been voting this way over the past 8 years the outcome of the November election would have been very different.</p>
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		<title>By: 6eorge Jetson</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10071</link>
		<dc:creator>6eorge Jetson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:24:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10071</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s A LOT BIGGER.

So much for bemoaning $~500 billion dollar deficits.  Ahh, for the good ol&#039; days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s A LOT BIGGER.</p>
<p>So much for bemoaning $~500 billion dollar deficits.  Ahh, for the good ol&#8217; days.</p>
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		<title>By: mbecker908</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10070</link>
		<dc:creator>mbecker908</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10070</guid>
		<description>is that you&#039;re an ignorant idiot.  

You can&#039;t fight today&#039;s war with old spent weapons.  Bush etal are history, get over it.  We have a real war to fight with the Dems right now.  Being a pusillanimous pinhead doesn&#039;t move the Party forward it just gives reason to people like McCain and Graham and Hatch to &quot;work with Obama&quot;.

You can leave now.  You have nothing to offer.  Grow up, get a job.  Move out of mommy&#039;s house, forget most of everything you&#039;ve been exposed to in college (assuming you&#039;re actually in college and not just a marauding high school kid) grow some cajones and come back in ten years.  Or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is that you&#8217;re an ignorant idiot.  </p>
<p>You can&#8217;t fight today&#8217;s war with old spent weapons.  Bush etal are history, get over it.  We have a real war to fight with the Dems right now.  Being a pusillanimous pinhead doesn&#8217;t move the Party forward it just gives reason to people like McCain and Graham and Hatch to &#8220;work with Obama&#8221;.</p>
<p>You can leave now.  You have nothing to offer.  Grow up, get a job.  Move out of mommy&#8217;s house, forget most of everything you&#8217;ve been exposed to in college (assuming you&#8217;re actually in college and not just a marauding high school kid) grow some cajones and come back in ten years.  Or not.</p>
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		<title>By: cookcountyconservative</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10069</link>
		<dc:creator>cookcountyconservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10069</guid>
		<description>n/t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>n/t</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10065</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10065</guid>
		<description>And a fine comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And a fine comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10066</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10066</guid>
		<description>And a fine comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And a fine comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10064</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10064</guid>
		<description>In fact you&#039;re continuing to fail to make that point.

Do the research and make your point with facts and substance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact you&#8217;re continuing to fail to make that point.</p>
<p>Do the research and make your point with facts and substance.</p>
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		<title>By: Lammo</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10062</link>
		<dc:creator>Lammo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10062</guid>
		<description>Now, how do we get the Senate Republicans to fillibuster their half of this monstrosity?

Hey, a guy can dream, can&#039;t he?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, how do we get the Senate Republicans to fillibuster their half of this monstrosity?</p>
<p>Hey, a guy can dream, can&#8217;t he?</p>
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		<title>By: csstudent</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10061</link>
		<dc:creator>csstudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10061</guid>
		<description>and very opposed to the bill.  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of worrying about debt now when spending was also out of control during the Bush administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and very opposed to the bill.  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of worrying about debt now when spending was also out of control during the Bush administration.</p>
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		<title>By: csstudent</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10059</link>
		<dc:creator>csstudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10059</guid>
		<description>As a fiscal conservative, I&#039;m very opposed to this bill and am happy that the Republicans in the House have stood up and voted this garbage down.   I was trying to make the point that I wish they had been doing this for the past 8 years when the national debt was also growing at a very alarming rate.

See point number 9 here:
http://www.redstate.com/dan_mclaughlin/2009/01/27/ten-lessons-from-the-bush-administration/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a fiscal conservative, I&#8217;m very opposed to this bill and am happy that the Republicans in the House have stood up and voted this garbage down.   I was trying to make the point that I wish they had been doing this for the past 8 years when the national debt was also growing at a very alarming rate.</p>
<p>See point number 9 here:<br />
http://www.redstate.com/dan_mclaughlin/2009/01/27/ten-lessons-from-the-bush-administration/</p>
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		<title>By: itrytobenice</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10058</link>
		<dc:creator>itrytobenice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10058</guid>
		<description>Am I every proud of you guys.  Good job!!!

I appreciate you sticking up for us taxpayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I every proud of you guys.  Good job!!!</p>
<p>I appreciate you sticking up for us taxpayers.</p>
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		<title>By: olsmithie</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10057</link>
		<dc:creator>olsmithie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10057</guid>
		<description>This really is HOPE!

Regards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This really is HOPE!</p>
<p>Regards</p>
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		<title>By: zsmvf6</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10056</link>
		<dc:creator>zsmvf6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10056</guid>
		<description></description>
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		<title>By: Moe Lane</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/01/28/the-democrats-have-passed-the-pelosi-reid-obama-debt-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-10055</link>
		<dc:creator>Moe Lane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/?p=1075#comment-10055</guid>
		<description>If even the Democrats can&#039;t explain it, why do they expect us to?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If even the Democrats can&#8217;t explain it, why do they expect us to?</p>
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