What republics *really* can’t survive happening: proscription lists.


I cannot believe that the Democrats would elect a House Speaker that doesn\'t know this in her bones.

Which is why I’m nonplussed on why Nancy Pelosi’s playing with fire, here. Via Ace of Spades HQ:

Pelosi Open to Prosecution of Bush Administration Officials

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is receptive to the idea of prosecuting some Bush administration officials, while letting others who are accused of misdeeds leave office without prosecution, she told Chris Wallace in an interview on “FOX News Sunday.”

“I think you look at each item and see what is a violation of the law and do we even have a right to ignore it,” the California Democrat said. “And other things that are maybe time that is spent better looking to the future rather than to the past.”

There’s a quote out there by Alexis de Tocqueville: The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money. It’s quite popular, despite the fact that Congress has been busily bribing the public with the public’s money since… oh, about the American Civil War. But never mind that now: I submit to all of you that the true reason that the American Republic has endured, public bribing by the legislature or no, is because of a very simple rule: political defeats do not end the game.

This cannot be emphasized enough, and it doesn’t get emphasized at all. Every time that the White House changes hands, we get to read self-congratulatory epistles about how wonderfully easy and simple and painless is the transfer of power. No tanks in the street, no tense moments at the various government agencies as the crop of old political appointees leave office to make room for the new crop of political appointees; there’s not even a mob. But do you know why that happens? It happens because the people leaving those jobs and positions are well aware that, when they get home, there won’t be a squad of masked gunmen from the opposing faction there to murder, rape, beat up, arrest, or drag into internal exile themselves and their families.

I do not exaggerate. This can happen. Read up on a historical example of same – trust me, the Founding Fathers knew about this; that and the French Revolution is why they all mostly hated political parties in the beginning – and ask yourself whether there’s been some sort of genetic mutation in the last two thousand years that would preclude the same thing happening here. Hint: there isn’t. This is a road we not only don’t want to go down; we don’t even want to admit that there’s a road in the first place.

Some of our lurkers are saying something right now on the order of Yeah, but these guys are guilty of war crimes! The problem with that is – well, there’s two problems. First off, the people who say that are usually possessed of other forms of mental derangement, including the one that they’re somehow good people for being against toppling dictators and protecting oppressed ethnic minorities. The second one, and the one that I was originally thinking of, is that they’re a subfaction of a political faction, which makes their opinion automatically suspect when it comes to putting another political faction in jail. Put another way: just because you think that prosecuting a different strategy in the GWOT should earn the offender a lengthy prison term doesn’t actually mean that you’re right. No matter how many people pander to your delusion.

Don’t like the way that I completely dismissed your attitude on this? Excellent: I don’t much like the way that the Democrats endlessly campaigned against a war that they supported when it was their guy in charge, and that they will support when it’s their guy in charge again. Guess what? I’m dealing with my dislike. I’m not planning an elaborate set of show trials when we take back Congress again – which we will – because that’s not how I understand the game is supposed to be played. Ask yourself this, o lurkers: do you really want to change the rules?

Really?

Crossposted at Moe Lane.


RSS feed

27 Comments Leave a comment

Well said, Moeseph.

Jeff Emanuel (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 8:37PM EST (link)

People often try to lay the end of the Roman Republic at Julius Caesar’s feet, but before him was a man named Sulla who proscribed — legalized (and rewarded) the killing and confiscating of property of political opponents — thousands of prominent Romans.

Antony and Augustus (then Octavian) continued this tradition, trading each other relatives for political enemies. The proscription lists were posted in the forum, and any Roman on the list could be killed for reward by his or her fellow citizens.

JE

 

Excellent points, Moe

Thrhheggeegwc Jjtkylkfofud (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 8:43PM EST (link)

BTW, the crosspost link goes to an unpublished draft. I can’t view it.

Thanks. Fixed. NT

Moe Lane (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 8:45PM EST (link)
 

Absolutely right

Ed54 (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 8:59PM EST (link)

And you’ve done a great service by identifying the term of art that all conservatives should use when discussing this prospect: “proscription”. People need to know exactly what they are playing with.

Of course liberals hate history, so they won’t know WTF the word means. All the better. Everyone will rush to Google and Wikipedia to educate themselves, and in the process will be forced to actually THINK. Lord knows where that might lead.

“If all men were just, there would be no need of valor.”
- Agesilaus

 

It will be amusing as the sub-faction is forced to change its righteous doctrine

phred (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 9:06PM EST (link)

on the FISA wiretaps and GTMO as the O begins his administration and CHANGES NOTHING from President Bush’s SOP!

Liberalism: Equally shared misery.

 

Fight or wear the Yoke

jdshandsomeson Sunday, January 18th at 9:49PM EST (link)

Conservatives are easily pushed around now because they let it happen. They dutifully submit to rules and laws enacted by their adversaries while those adversaries ignore and openly violate laws they do not like.

When this happens conservatives cry and do nothing else. The GOP lost in 2006 and 2008 because they revealed themselves as cowards as well as inept. No one likes cowards.

Conservatives eventually will risk such ancient practices as actual proscription if they continue to live on their knees, bowing to their enemies. They will either do this, or they will stand up and fight back, literally.

Nice guys finish last - literally

Praying (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 12:04AM EST (link)

We tried being nice. Didn’t work. We tried being civil, submissive, polite, accommodating, bi-partisan. Didn’t work – none of it. So, it’s time to take the jacket off and put the gloves on. Sometimes you’ve got to fight like a dog to beat the dogs. I don’t like it, but I’m tired of rolling over and playing dead. Surely with our guns, bibles, and the change we are keeping, we can beat these guys.

No!!!11!1!!1!1! The Bilderbergers are coming

 

Don't you mean Republicans...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 2:04AM EST (link)

Not Conservatives?

 
 

we deserve this...

Jack (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 10:03PM EST (link)

When you don;t have the “cahones” to fight and al lyou have is a broad yellow streak down your back then you get the liberals running over you.

Jack

“If at age 20 you are conservative you have no heart. It at age 30 you are liberal you have no brains.” Sir Winston Churchill

the Bush Administration is not "we"

E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 1:48AM EST (link)

I don’t deserve it. Nobody at RedState deserves it. No Republican outside of DC deserves it.

Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO

 

As EPU said, Jack, "we" didn't deserve this, the ones who

janis (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 8:51AM EST (link)

got us where we are are R’s like McCain and Grahamnesty. Very few here wanted McCain as the nominee, many here are Fredheads who absolutely were willing to fight. And it’s my prediction that when the time comes to grab the levers of power once again, it will be those strong federalist conservatives who do it.

We’re finally through with allowing the “moderates” to set the parameters, it’s time for a huge purge.

 
 

Even [some] Marxists know this

David123 (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 10:20PM EST (link)

see, for example – Kruschev – RETIRED, comfortably

David123

 

Obama will trade for a free pass

margo Sunday, January 18th at 10:25PM EST (link)

It seems Obama has a plan to use President Bush to help him in his plans to put down the last 28% of rebellion left in this country.

In the same way that Papa Bush and Bill Clinton are best buddies now, I’ll bet that W. gets appointed to some goodwill mission.

Then Obama will tell Nancy to stop the investigations.

Obama's plan for Bush

izoneguy (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 10:33PM EST (link)

Make him President of Texas and let the 48% move there.

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

izone, you forgot the second half of the plan.........

Kenny Solomon (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 10:40PM EST (link)

……. Obama’s plan for Bush: Make him President of Texas and let the 48% move there.

….and when we all move in, then Teh Mess-I-Yah sells Texas to Mexico for one dollar.

If that's his plan, I approve

JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 1:33AM EST (link)

Y’all come on down. Except Texas will be one buying Mexico, not the other way around. Then maybe the new TexMex Republic will loan the USA some money.

Then again, maybe not. The USA may not be such a good investment without us.

“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson

 
 
 
 

Everyone is missing the point

robmikpet (Diary) Sunday, January 18th at 11:57PM EST (link)

The Democrats won’t prosecute because no one would be found guilty. What they really want is

1) To pretend they did it for love of and future of the country.

2) Continue to have the media perpetrate number one above as well as the myth of criminal activity of the Bush administration to forever destroy any legacy.

The Liberals and MSM (redundant I know) will “report” the War on Terror a failure for not upholding the rule of law.

 

What makes you think the Democrats want

Tbone (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 12:44AM EST (link)

a republic?

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

What Democrats want...?

CJB68 Monday, January 19th at 9:33AM EST (link)

   At least, what Dems say they want is “democracy”.  What they mean looks suspiciously like the kind of democracy we once got out of ancient Athens, where cliques of supporters for a popular demagogue who decides that someone must die makes sure that that person is dead.  Eventually, the poor place was so broken that anyone who had a bigger army would break in and round ‘em up if they got rowdy (the Macedonians and Rome come to mind).

Delusional and Arrogant.  The Modern Democratic Philosophy.

 
 

Fatal follies...

CJB68 Monday, January 19th at 9:42AM EST (link)

   The more things like this start happening, the more I’m convinced that our republic is on the fast track towards repeating the follies which beset ancient Rome.  That republic didn’t last very long once the Senators and their magistrates started monkeying around.

   The only difference that I see betwen us today and Rome in its imperial glory days is that we’re liable to collapse a whole lot faster.  The barbarians had to walk or ride horses into town after taking a swim across some pretty large rivers and climing through some high mountains; the “barbarians” of our day can take a plane ride or sit in the back of a truck crossing a relatively porous border in order to starting doing their things here.

Delusional and Arrogant.  The Modern Democratic Philosophy.

 

So let us make our list

10ksnooker (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 9:55AM EST (link)

Of who to jail when the next Republican is elected.

Let’s start with Pelosi, Reid, Dodd and Fwanks.

We can add to the list with each passing day.

Why stop with the present?

JDidSaint Monday, January 19th at 11:43AM EST (link)

I propose a class action law suit against FDR’s estate for the vast sums his policies have taken out of my pocketbook.

“I’d rather go through the pain of the re-emergence of free markets than endure the long suffering of a socialist state. One is natural and comes from that spark of human desire; the other is imposed and smothers the flame of ingenuity.”-Crowe (from RedState!)

 
 

Ummm..... 2000 years???

texaskatey Monday, January 19th at 11:22AM EST (link)

From your 3rd paragraph after the quote: trust me, the Founding Fathers knew about this; that and the French Revolution is why they all mostly hated political parties in the beginning – and ask yourself whether there’s been some sort of genetic mutation in the last *two thousand* years that would preclude the same thing happening here.

Great article Moe, with which I agree — but your math skills may be as bad as my hypertext skills!

It's a reference to the Marius/Sulla civil war...

Moe Lane (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 11:25AM EST (link)

…which admittedly is closer to 2100 years than 2000. 2000 looks better, though. :)

which repeated itself after the death of caesar

icbm (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 12:00PM EST (link)

and the second triumvirate put together proscription lists, including, of course, cicero (by order of antony).

 
 
 

Over my dead body!

John E. (Diary) Monday, January 19th at 11:55AM EST (link)

I don’t know whether I mean to lay down in front of vehicles carrying off the heroes who did the hard things to protect the nation or to take up arms in a new revolution, but that’s the sentiment that will kick in if they start prosecuting Bush administration officials for their conduct in the war against Islamic supremacists. Over my dead body!

Interesting

MikeO Monday, January 19th at 12:24PM EST (link)

The same exact thought was the first that crossed my mis-wired mind upon reading this.