How to disarm two liberal arguments on torture


Preface: I recently reread Arthur M. Schlesinger’s ‘The Imperial Presidency’ for a course and found his thoughts pertinent to the torture debate raging today.  I borrow heavily from its opening chapters in framing the first portion of this entry.  The quotes from Jefferson and Locke and the analysis of them are summarizing his thoughts, not mine, but since blogging here renders footnoting impossible, they stand unattributed.   The following are excerpts from a longer correspondence with two liberal friends who celebrated Obama’s release of the torture memos as ending a barbaric and inexpedient practice while improving our image around the Muslim world.

“On great occasions every good officer must be ready to risk himself in going beyond the strict line of the law, when the public preservation requires it; his motives will be a justification. There are extreme cases where the laws become inadequate to their own preservation, and where the universal recourse is a dictator, or martial law.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

“A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of a higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means. The line of discrimination between cases may be difficult, but the good officer is bound to draw it at his own peril, and throw himself on the justice of his country and the rectitude of his motives.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

What powers are granted the executive in an emergency?   More importantly, who defines when such a situation exists? The Constitution is vague on both questions. The Founders only explicitly spelled out that the right of habeus corpus could be suspended during time of rebellion and insurrection. The document is silent on all other matters, implying that protections granted in the Bill of Rights cannot be revoked.
The Founders were also influenced by Locke, as the quotes I borrow from Jefferson indicate. In his 2nd Treatise of government, Locke maintained that the preservation of life in a society represented a law of nature that superseded all parchment barriers. For reasons of expediency, Locke placed this prerogative squarely in the hands of the executive during an emergency. For Locke, the prerogative permitted the “ruler to do several things of his own free choice, where the law was silent, and sometimes, too, against the direct letter of the law [and] he must have the power to act according to discretion for the public good, without the prescription of law and sometimes even against it.” In other words, Locke maintains that the executive can implement extralegal and even illegal action during times of emergency, but with the caveat that such actions were only moral if done with the consent of the people and legislature, otherwise it is tyranny against which the populace has the duty to rebel.

I doubt even the staunchest civil libertarians would insist upon tying down the state while the corpses continued to pile. The Founders could not foresee a suitcase bomb in downtown Manhattan killing millions and crippling the nation’s commerce or a similar situation in Washington D.C. destroying the federal government. Such situations are farfetched but not outside the realm of reasonable probability and were used by the Bush Administration to justify an unprecedented expansion of the state’s surveillance power in the wake of September 11. Should a catastrophic terrorist attack strike the United States, we and our descendents will live under a permanent police state under which liberties such as free association, speech, and press, to say nothing of virtue and individual excellence, can never flourish.
Doing a great right sometimes entails doing a little wrong, as you seem to accept. You call my argument utilitarian yet you are willing to outsource “torture” to unspecified other areas, apparently under the assumption that a detainee who fails to disclose an imminent mass murder forfeits his rights, but that America is vindicated so long as it upholds the letter of the law while ignoring its intent. In doing so, you establish no standard and appear to endorse a vague cost-benefit test through which the imminence and magnitude of an attack is somehow measured against the probability of a detainee providing useful information which permits the state to torture. I see no difference between your position and mine.
Saying torture is always wrong is like saying fire is always bad. It is not, it depends on the time and place and the ends its employment entails. I agree with Lincoln, Richard Posner, and others who maintain there exists a peacetime constitution and an emergency one and extraordinary circumstances mandates the executive exercise a wide array of powers to protect the nation. I do not see this as controversial for reasons I have spelled out. Constitutional scholars should dwell upon the normative and plausible checks the legislature may impose on the executive during such a period rather than if torture is legal.

 
I favor granting the executive a leeway in claiming emergency powers and in obtaining information you may find excessive. I believe the executive department knows better than you or I which techniques provide the best information and my bar for the implementation of “torture” to detainees is accordingly much lower than I imagine yours is. I am also willing to accept well-intentioned errors in these activities as regrettable, but acceptable mistakes.

You ask for accountability from the government, yet it is the self-righteous and hyperbolic rhetoric of the humanitarians that renders vigorous defenses of the necessity of such techniques politically untenable for a Democratic president, which suggests such practices shall be driven further underground.
As an armchair strategist, I doubt anything we say vis-à-vis torture matters at all in the recruitment ranks of extremist groups or in shaping the opinions of those Third Worlders most inclined to have a thoughtful position on the United States. America’s unabated willingness to exert its political and economic power and its association with the proliferation of consumerism and secularism into modernizing regions of the world remain the most salient critiques of U.S. foreign policy. These transcend any debate over “torture.” Without any supporting evidence, I will suggest very few people around the world are really invested in whether America lives up to its universalist ideals or not and only a small segment of this group even considers whether the United States tortures its detainees or not as at all relevant to answering that question. This is not to say the question is uninteresting, but that such a decision is irrelevant to shaping our image around the world and that those who maintain a belated mea cupla on enhanced interrogation techniques somehow mitigates the recruitment ranks or ardor of extremist groups woefully overlooks other grievances they possess.

Attributing Abu Gharib some meaningful causal agency is quite the stretch, to put it nicely, absurd to put it bluntly. For those so inclined to hate what the United States represents that they will commit murder ten thousand fold, I imagine the abandonment of “torture” by the West functions in the same manner a fig leaf on a statue does for art connessiuers. It needlessly draws attention to what is covered and will only please those who are only dimly aware of the bigger picture, yet so uncomfortable with a natural if nefarious part of it that they demand the curator cover it up.

From the armchair strategist, the only benefit that may come from Obama’s public disavowal of “torture” is that it may lower the political costs of cooperating with the United States on defense matters for Western Europeans leaders.

On the final point, as thinking through human rights entails defining the contexts under which some individuals or classes of people forfeit their rights, I see discussions of abortion and torture as quite linked ethically and morally, if not perhaps legally from the perspective of international law.  As you picked up on, I was somewhat snarkily implying that those making arguments that the world demands the U.S. stop torturing that an equally, if not more powerful mandate exists in world opinion to overrule our state’s position on abortion.



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10 Comments Leave a comment

Your caveat about torture....

JadedByPolitics (Diary) Thursday, April 23rd at 7:10PM EST (link)

As is relates to ABORTION as being relative to TORTURE is dead on and liberals/leftist/marxist’s and the absolute HATEFUL ACLU WANT IT and they fight tooth and nail for it and yet attempt to sit in judgement of what our patriots would do to a terrorist to keep the rest of us alive who are not being tortured by abortionists is quite telling about those hypocritical jacka@@es!

 

Now, here's the million dollar Q:

aesthete (Diary) Thursday, April 23rd at 9:48PM EST (link)

Do you advocate that we torture citizens who could potentially be terrorists? Would you advocate that potential leaders of extremist movements, or those simply sympathetic to those movements in the abstract, are liable to torture/surveillance if they might have a piece of info relating to terrorist groups? These questions really lead into a larger question that, IMO, must be answered for this thought exercise not to come tumbling down: What works as a concrete line to draw when it comes to violating the Constitution, and if there isn’t one, how can we ensure that the door isn’t left open for mob democracy, or something arguably worse, like dictatorship?

I am not troubled by the “torturing” methods that were formerly in use in the slightest; nor was I particularly worried about the fact that it was done to non-citizens, because none of those violated the Constitution, and both were fairly benign, in my eyes. Where I find fault is with the idea that an undefined “crisis” or emergency is a valid measure for which to violate the Constitution. This precedent, particularly in light of things like Mrs. Neapolitano’s document on “Right-Wing Extremism”, is troubling. So again, I ask: Is there any good definition for an emergency, or will we simply have to wait until an “emergency” allows for this precedent to be used by tyrants seeking to trample over our rights?

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton

I think that would be a trillion dollar Q in this economy.

Steph C (Diary) Thursday, April 23rd at 9:59PM EST (link)

I really should change my screen name here to include paranoia somehow. I’ve been wondering in the back of my mind if there was a reason for all this that we’re not seeing, such as using such methods against “domestic terrorists” as defined by the DHS.

I can almost see the show trials resulting in some such decision about EIT, then with all the investigations being conducted by DHS on potential domestic terrorists… especially after all the hullabaloo over warrantless wiretapping that Obama didn’t do away in spite of all the caterwauling he did while campaigning.

Naaaah… surely my paranoia is just working overtime… ;-)

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

Same here

aesthete (Diary) Thursday, April 23rd at 10:18PM EST (link)

FDR, Lincoln, and Wilson all took advantage of this idea of the “wartime” Constitution, and I would honestly like to know if there’s any way to prevent this from being abused? If not, I’d say that it’s better to keep our freedoms at a cost, than to risk losing them to a tyrant under the guise of “wartime powers”.

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton

Keeping freedoms at what cost?

McKinley (Diary) Thursday, April 23rd at 11:58PM EST (link)

Were Lincoln, Wilson, and Roosevelt tyrants?

No, and that more or less confirms my point

aesthete (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 12:07AM EST (link)

If politicians who weren’t tyrants managed to mangle the Constitution as badly as those three did without being tyrannical, then I fear for the day that America unwittingly (or, even more appallingly, wittingly) elects a truly evil or tyrannical person to power.

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton

 
 

There's an established way to get rid of tyrants

Finrod (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 5:03PM EST (link)

It’s called a revolution.

The Founding Fathers gave us the Second Amendment just in case we had to exercise that option.

Let’s get down to brass tacks here. How much for the ape?

The Constitution is built around the idea of limiting the powers

aesthete (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 11:59PM EST (link)

of its elected representatives, and given the stark choice of armed revolution and tyranny, I can’t honestly tell you that the modern American would choose freedom.

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton

 
 
 
 

Tough questions

McKinley (Diary) Thursday, April 23rd at 11:53PM EST (link)

You’ll pardon me if I defer to the legal experts on this site over technical questions on domestic surveillance, though I do not believe any legal barrier would have any practical effect under the nightmare scenario I advocate here as justifying an almost unlimited discretion by the executive branch and security agencies. What separates a suitcase bomb scenario in Manhattan and chatter in intelligence channels is the imminence and magnitude of such an attack. I would advocate a case by case basis for examining the use of “torture” where operators on the ground are given wide discretion under emergencies, but also subject to strident review following it. I am unwilling to supply a definitive line for you aside from something along the lines of a “clear and present danger” hurdle and cause why torturing x subject might yield valuable information.

On defining when this emergency exists, the executive will always have more information than the Congress, Courts, or the public on the nature and magnitude of any threat to the naton. It is difficult to foresee any practical scenario where a president during a time of extreme duress is meaningfully checked by the Congress, the press, or the public in vigalantly pursuing the public safety. Therefore any normative checks on the executive branch existing in the Constitution would be moot, in my mind.

This doesn’t answer your question. Indeed, I suggest that the impulse for self-preservation in face of a threat will likely mitigate any potential checks as the nation looks to its leader to deliver it to safety, for better or worse. I am not so paranoid to believe any government we elect will manufacture or milk a crisis to exterminate the opposition, though I do worry procedures and bureaus established during legitimate periods of extraordinary crisis might attain an unwarranted mandate and legitimacy during periods of normalcy.

I think of Lincoln wrote when General Hooker allegedly offered his services to the nation as a Casear:

“Only those Generals who gain successes can set up dictators. What I now ask of you is military success, and I will risk the dictatorship.”

Not the most optimistic thing ever written. I suppose we will have to be good Lockeians and rely on the people to revolt against executive usurpation, hopefully in the ballot box.

Thanks for replying

aesthete (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 12:27AM EST (link)

With this explanation, I will regrettably have to part ways with you on this. (Though you have given me something to think about w/the concept of post-incident reviews.) I agree with you in specific instances which could theoretically affect the nation, like the theoretical Cold War scenario of MAD, where it would be appropriate for a US president to respond to a Russian act of aggression, or even the scenario of a nuke in Manhattan, because in such instances, there is no time to expand the number of decision makers beyond that of the executive.

That said, institutionalizing a system where an executive could breach the Constitution long-term in the name of “emergency” a la FDR is not something that I’m interested in seeing, for three main reasons: 1) the trampling of our rights, for however noble a cause, will result in new norms for how the Constitution is interpreted, as what happened after Lincoln and FDR. 2) There is a large amount of potential for abuse in such an arrangement. I’m sure that I don’t have to point out the numerous historical and contemporary precedents for what could happen in such an instance, and I’d rather not have to depend on having to rely on the democratic process to produce quality candidates every time. 3) It undermines the idea of rule of law. I’m not one who thinks that we should be slaves to the law, but I do think that we should be when possible, and in most cases, it is possible, though much more difficult, to protect civil liberties in a long-term scenario.

Again, thanks for the reply; it was clearly well-thought out.

The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton