Time for You All to Stop Thinking of Torture in the Abstract


Promoted by Jeff. Read the whole thing…it’s worth it.

The more I hear about this “torture” debate, I cringe – the discussion of the CIA using tools of water submersion, sleep deprivation, physical slapping, diet and mind control . . . well, the thoughts for me are not “what would that be like?” The flashbacks for me are quite real.

You all talk about this torture discussion – these criminal interrogation techniques – in the abstract.  How convenient and safe for all of you – I lived it.  For nearly twenty years, I have remained silent.  I have never relayed my experience to those outside my family and friends and I must caution you that I don’t know if I will be able to complete this post.  Here it goes . . . let me tell you a little bit about my experience.  Pardon the cryptic nature of my description, but it is truly painful.

Starting at the age of 15, I was detained by an “internationally known organization,” erasing my freedom of movement, activity and choice until I was nearly 18 years old.  That nearly three year period was without a doubt the most mentally and physically exhausting period of my life.  And, while others were detained with me, it was a situation where I had to depend upon my own abilities to persevere in order to carry on day after day.

The daily torture which I experienced involved the following:

After very short periods of sleep, following  evenings of hard labor which would not end until nearly midnight, I was awakened not later than 5:00 a.m.  I was then carried to an immersion tank – where without proper clothing and often without proper nourishment, I was immersed in water, frequently submerged, for periods of 2 to 2 1/2 hours.  With my tormenters screaming at me, I often dodged heavy wooden planks which tank guards would throw at me or my fellow detainees, if they sensed if we were fraternizing.  My tormenters would routinely direct that I submerge myself for periods of not less than 1 1/2 minutes while navigating around the immersion tank, forced to touch each edge or wall of the immersion tank before I could come up for breath.  If I would come up for breath too quickly, I was immediately directed to do it again and, if I did not complete it the second time, then my tormenters would force my fellow detainees to submerge themselves all over again, until all detainees had completed their tortuous task.

I would remain in the immersion tank until my skin was literally prune-like.  Then with whistles, my tormenters would scream for us to get out of the tank and marched us to a dungeon room, where my fellow detainees and I were separated in three lines and ordered to grab a metal bar, from which our bodies just hung – the forced arm-stretching was just brutal.  I could only survive by pulling my chin up over the bar repeatedly, in order to give my arms a break from this artificial arm-lengthening torment.  Then, after our arms had been stretched as if on the “rack,” we were ordered to lay down on these hard benches, where steel weights were placed on our chest and at our sides.  But for our abilities to lift these weights off our chest repeatedly, assuredly, we would have suffocated.

Just when our bodies were about to cave from the sheer weight of these steel circular objects, we were marched out of the dungeon and permitted to eat very modest amounts of food – high carbohydrate, starchy foods, which would have raised the triglyceride levels of most mortal men, but the detainees were not mere mortals.  We were the tortured few.

Then, with a callousness reserved for third world dictators, the detainees were ordered back to the immersion tank.  Again, we were tormented.  At points in time, we were bound by little rubber tubes around our ankles, with only a little foam object placed between our thighs – with no ability to move our legs, we were repeatedly ordered into the deep end of the immersion tank and told to not come back until we had touched the other wall.  Then, as if that effort to drown us was not enough, we were strapped with thin rubber tubing around our waists and then told to stretch that rubber tubing all the way to the opposite wall – this would often necessitate repeated arm movement, almost a flailing as if caught in the most merciless of rip-tides.  Once we touched the wall, the stretched rubber tubing would snap back and with a rush, we were returned to the area where our tormenters stood with their whistles and sticks.

Day after day, we endured this regimen.  I stand 6′ 1″ tall and yet I weighed a paltry 144 lbs. - immaciated does not adequately describe my damaged appearance.  Not only this – but my hair turned green and routinely fell out.  And, then periodically, every four or five months, the male detainees were forced to shave their legs, arms and backs and worst of all, our heads.

As if to curry favor with our tormenters, the older detainees would gang up on the younger detainees – routinely slapping them, piling on them and, then, often grabbing their undergarments, stretching their underwear up over their heads.  A few ended up being hoisted on the prison flagpole by their underwear, while they screamed in fear over their unforeseen predicament.

This is what I endured – day after day after day – month after month.  It is a wonder that I survived.

Torture is wrong – very wrong.  And, I hope that by relaying my experience to you, you will open your eyes to the concerns raised by the Obama Administration over the CIA techniques used to elicit information from Kalid Sheikh Mohammed and his ilk.

. . . I can’t do this anymore.

To all hand-wringing Democrats in Washington – claiming that America lost its values in permitting the CIA to carry forward its terrible interrogation techniques with persons responsible for the MURDER of nearly 3,000 Americans – get a life.

Are we to believe that somehow an internationally known, public high school swim team in Ann Arbor, Michigan can compel its 15 year old, 10th grade swimmers:

  • to swim not less than 18,000 yards a day (760 lengths in a 25 yard pool) over a period of 4 1/2 hours;
  • to lift weights for not less than 1 hour per day;
  • to do pull-ups until the swimmers literally vomit at the base of the pull-up bar;
  • to get less than 5 hours of sleep per night, only to get up at 5:00 a.m. and ride a bike eight miles to and from the swimming pool – twice a day (in the summer);
  • to, let’s not forget, endure your teammates giving repeated “snuggies” and hanging you by your underwear from a flagpole (of course, this doesn’t happen anymore ;-) );
  • and to generally endure a swimming regimen and discipline, which has produced numerous national champion teams and swimmers, including medal-winning Olympians,

BUT the CIA can’t compel the production of important information about terrorists’ identities and future terrorist attacks, designed to save the lives of millions of Americans, by:

  • immersing someone in water for 30 seconds;
  • by depriving them from their beauty sleep, night after night;
  • by grabbing them harshly by the shoulders and directing their attention to what you are saying;
  • by slapping them occasionally to get their attention; and,
  • by not feeding them a USDA approved diet?

Are you kidding me?

President Obama, Senator Leahy, Speaker Pelosi and any others whom agree with your recent actions – your extreme views are endangering the safety of my family, my friends and my country.  If any one of my family or friends is harmed, because your pansy attitude towards harsh interrogation techniques, NOT TORTURE, with terrorists has prevented us from knowing about a future terrorist attack, I will hold you personally responsible for such harm.

Hiding behind the comments of an American hero, John McCain, does not excuse your callous disregard of American interests and our need to discern the nature and gravity of the threats which America faces today and tomorrow.  This disregard isn’t on George W. Bush – this disregard of American interests is yours and yours alone.


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Sorry you had to experience that.

Common_Cents (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 8:48PM EST (link)

It makes my blood boil to hear the apologist idiotic anti American left go out of their way to discredit their own country and embolden the enemy.

More photos are now being release of detainee abuse. But, if they could pass a law to ban anyone seeing any 9/11 pictures or Americans being beheaded, they would.

It just infuriates me.

Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from, behind, the Back Nine.
Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.

whoops, i just reread it! great post. nt

Common_Cents (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:22PM EST (link)

Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from, behind, the Back Nine.
Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.

 
 

Brillant post.

Praying (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 8:59PM EST (link)

My two sons have been swimming for a prestigious U.S. Swim team since they were 7 or 8 years old. My oldest is a freshman at college (swimming still), my youngest is a Junior in high school and hopes to swim in college. The routine you describe is pretty accurate – my boys always laugh that the big jock football players could never survive their training routine. But it has instilled in them a discipline, and a level of fitness that is the envy of their family and friends. I doubt they would call it “torture”, any more than any sane, rational individual would call the “intense interrogation” terror. What a sorry nation of wimps we are becoming.

Swimming

No!!!11!1!!1!1! The Bilderbergers are coming

Thank you.

Lords86 (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:13PM EST (link)

After 15 years of swimming, it’s nice I remember it so fondly. ;-) Thanks again.

Treasure those memories..

vettepilot (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:17PM EST (link)

If the administration get’s a hold of your account, an inquisition into the cruelty of competitive athletics will surely result!

 
 
 

Nice job.

Flagstaff (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:24PM EST (link)

Was that Pioneer High School?

“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964

Yes.

Lords86 (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:27PM EST (link)

I swam there from 1979 to 1982 – State Class A Champions all three years and then I went on to Kenyon College. Hence, the Lords86. Thank you for your comment.

I suspected as much

David Hinz (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:29PM EST (link)
 
 

My two oldest girls both swam, tho never at even a regional competitive level.

USNJIMRET (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:25PM EST (link)

And, while they were sometimes not exactly thrilled at the early mornings, or late evenings, I don’t recall even once the word ‘torture’ being uttered.
Truly our Nation must look like the very paper tiger to our avowed enemies.

 

Military School

Dencal26 Friday, April 24th at 9:29PM EST (link)

I attended a JROTC Military Boarding school from ages 14-18. Our immediate superiors were upper classmen. Imagine a 10th grader subjest to almost absolute rule under High School Seniors. One night someone in my room had a transistor radio with a ear plug. When the plug was in the radio was silent except to the user. Some cadets would use these to help them go to sleep. One night an ear plug came out and the radio blasted out loud. My company commander forced all 21 of us to strip naked and line up in the hall where he took a broom stick and took full swings at our rears one by one. Trust me it was painful. If someone yelled he started all over again.

 

Dennis D

Dencal26 Friday, April 24th at 9:34PM EST (link)

During the Iranian Hostage Crisis similar tactics were used. Waterboarding is just fear of death and inflicts no physical harm

The mock execution ended after the guards cocked their weapons and readied them to fire but finally ejected their rounds and told the prisoners to pull up their pants. The hostages were later told the exercise was “just a joke” and something the guards “had wanted to do.”[47] Iranian Hostage Crisis

Why isn’t the UN prosecuting Iranian Officials?

 

No pictures about what they do to us

katesmith (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 9:45PM EST (link)

I live in Manhattan and was glued to local tv from the moment 9-11 happened. I never once saw/heard about anyone jumping from the buildings. My brother who lives in New Jersey mentioned the subject to me about 10 days after 9-11, he had seen pictures in a publication.

9|11 reminder

1stRichard (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 11:24PM EST (link)

http://attacked911.tripod.com/

1stRichard, can the Directors put your link in Recommended?

penguin2 (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:49PM EST (link)

Everyone should see this and remember. How could we have forgotten so soon. It is a profound memory.

Thank you.

Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills

Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 
 

What network?

zeebeach Saturday, April 25th at 7:01AM EST (link)

I was also glued to the TV, but I did see and hear about the many persons jumping from the towers (FOX News for me, but I believe all the networks covered it). FOX did give a warning about disturbing content before showing the film.

They were pretty discrete about it though.

Achance (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:05PM EST (link)

It was pretty obvious what some of the “debris” was and it didn’t take much to put two and two together on what sort of debris has struck that police chaplain.

In Vino Veritas

I was watching NY 1

katesmith (Diary) Tuesday, April 28th at 11:01PM EST (link)

That’s the local Manhattan channel. I thought at the time they would have the most complete coverage. Thanks for letting me know other places carried the jumpers.

 
 
 
 

the green hair tipped me off...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:04PM EST (link)

but until that you had me hook line and sinker….great post!!

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Seriously this was great!

Amy Miller (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:51PM EST (link)

I had a nagging suspicion you were up to something (thus is my nature), and then the green hair set me noddin’ along with the rest.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Definitely front pageworthy!

“I’m a conservative, I’m a textualist, I’m an originalist, but I’m not a nut.”
~Scalia, J.

 
 

Boot Camp

1stRichard (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:30PM EST (link)

I was going to bring up the early P. I. but I will back out over possible controversy. But I will say water boarding is far more preverbal then the rose garden.

And it's far nicer than I'd be willing to do

mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:41PM EST (link)

to said subjects. My best friend has been waterboarded a number of times in various training exercises. He mentioned one day that compared to what you could do with a small high speed drill a dental pick and can of compressed freon, waterboarding was indeed a rose garden. And I didn’t ask.

 
 

You can expect to be called before a Congressional Committee

mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:33PM EST (link)

probably chaired by Teddy Kennedy, to testify about this time of your life. And we can then expect that such treatment will be outlawed and parents of said detainees will be imprisoned for child abuse.

 

You know...

usrbinperl (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:33PM EST (link)

Anyone who’s ever been to SERE school has been waterboarded. If you lasted that long, that is.

The idea that waterboarding is torture is a complete joke – we use it as a training device on our own folks. Sure, it’s not exactly a trip to Disneyworld, but it’s a long way from lasting damage.

 

The police use 50 thousand volts to subdue...

JadedByPolitics (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:50PM EST (link)

American’s daily and our military can’t dunk a TERRORIST in water….liberals are truly pathetic!

Maybe they'll downgrade...

Amy Miller (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 10:54PM EST (link)

…to just annoyingly squirting the terrorists with Super Soakers until they give up the goods!

(But then again, Super Soakers are guns and guns make us think weapons which do NOT encourage visions of sugarplums, and really we must be thinking of the children in times like these….)

“I’m a conservative, I’m a textualist, I’m an originalist, but I’m not a nut.”
~Scalia, J.

ROTFLMAO!....nt

JadedByPolitics (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 11:16PM EST (link)
 
 

I understand your pain and frustration

antisocial (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 11:09PM EST (link)

I really do.

Thank you for this diary.

Obama Doctrine – Boot On The Throat
—————————–
What is to be done?
——————————
No. You can’t – Moe Lane
——————————
The Emperor has no clothes!!!

 

Ho ho, tee hee, it is to laugh

ajl_mo (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 11:22PM EST (link)

stop it…my sides are splitting…oh how very droll.

I pay for porn.

Now that you've gotten that out of your system, ajl_mo...

Moe Lane (Diary) Friday, April 24th at 11:39PM EST (link)

…apologize to Lords86 for being rude to him. Next post.

Lords86...guess Mr. Lane was right

ajl_mo (Diary) Sunday, April 26th at 11:49PM EST (link)

Guess Mr. Lane was right, it wasn’t funny at all. I apologize for finding any humor in your piece.

I pay for porn.

 
 
 

What would Reagan think of enhanced interrogation?

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 12:17AM EST (link)

I ask because I found his statement below interesting. Would the techniques used by the Bush Administration be considered “torture” or “inhuman treatment or punishment?”:

“The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.”

-Ronald Reagan’s signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984

INTERROGATION IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM PUNISHMENT, THEREFORE, IS NOT TORTURE.

Rod_Patrick (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:39AM EST (link)

A brief infliction of pain and fear by “intense interrogation” for the purpose of getting vital information to save this country or to defeat the enemy IS NOT PUNISHMENT, and therefore …. NOT TORTURE.

Rod, what about "inhuman treatment?"

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 12:47AM EST (link)

as noted in President Reagan’s signing statement?

Let us clarify everything, modgopgal.

Rod_Patrick (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 4:22AM EST (link)

My response to your first comment is lousy. It’s a little bit snarky as I’m trying to emphasize that interrogation is not punishment. I hope we agree on this as the purpose to said acts are totally unrelated.

To clarify everything, let us use the official UNCHR definition of TORTURE, which says:

any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a male or female person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

Ref: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

The above is the definition of torture ratified by US under Pres. Reagan. So, my initial response is somewhat inaccurate. Interrogation, even though not a punishment, can also lead to torture as per the definition above. But let me highlight the following:

It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

The Bush Administration’s lawyers provided the legal opinions to “provide lawful sanctions” of the acts and means of interrogations performed by the CIA. In short, the UNCHR’s definition of TORTURE failed to provide the general basis for alleging that the government interrogators in the case of KSM and others had committed “crime” of torture.

NOW ON THE ISSUE OF INHUMAN TREATMENT:

We may opine that we, as Americans, are the most humane people on earth and by that, we have to respect the world humanity. Maybe.

But we should be aware that there are actually two clashing domains in the issue, not just one. First is the Reality that we have “an enemy”, that we are “at war”… and that we are in peril. The other is our own innate sense of “Humanity”. However, we can only objectively inject the concept of “humanity” if we can prove that we can adequately establish an “absolute” standard for all humans, an epitome of fairness for all humanity. In short, the issue of “inhuman treatment” is hinged on the existence of “absolutism”.

Elitists have successfully established that world unity (or world government for some) is the absolute ideal by which all governments should pursue. Their strategies are multiculturalism, diversity, or even (and to some extent) removal of religion in our daily dialogue. They are pacifists, believing that the world can peacefully operate as a diverse mix of culture with a great promise of prosperity.

But reality tells us that we can never fully “unite” ourselves with other nations. This is because of the fact that we can never establish unity without addressing our many differences, such as on the aspects of morality, values and aspirations. Funny, since if we cannot establish “unity” within ourselves as Americans, how can we even think of “unity” among the rest of the humanity in the world.

In fact, many scholars have long been arguing that there has been an on-going war…. a war of civilization. The Arab people may tell us all the different justifications of their hate of America but if we are only true to ourselves, it will boil down to one thing: CULTURAL DIFFERENCE. (Note: In the above, liberals and the hollywood hypes also contribute to the anger of the Jihadists against America, not just the Christian social conservatives.)

Since absolutism doesn’t exist and arguing that we are “above other nations” in terms of moral standard defeats our very own concept of absolutism, WE HAVE TO ACCEPT THE REALITY THAT OUR SENSE OF HUMANITY IS LIMITED.

The CIA interrogators had to face the reality that they have the responsibility of getting information at all costs to save our people. They are just humans with limitations.

It is NOT FAIR, relative to our American standard, to accuse the CIA interrogators as heartless people who treat the enemies inhumanly. If we accuse them of that, we should also be accusing our military and the ordinary soldiers of the same thing. Finally, we should also be cursing ourselves for letting these people do the “inhuman” treatment of the enemies for the sake of our own protection as the citizens. Accusing the CIA interrogators of inhumane treatment is therefore HYPOCRITICAL in some ways.

In summary, the issue of inhuman treatment deals with absolutism, which is not a simple question that can be clearly answered by yes or no. In the end, the declassification of the CIA memos has revived the debate on the controversial book “War by Other Means” by John Yoo. I remember that in that debate, there were no clear winners, only sure losers…. the Americans.

The whole issue is just an extension of Obama’s World Apology Tour.

 
 
 

go figure you're a moderate who trys to use Reagan's words against conservatives...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:47AM EST (link)

Reagan would have had the common sense to see the difference between waterboarding as performed and torture….you not so much.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Actually, Aaron, had you read my post

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 12:53AM EST (link)

you would have noticed that I offered no opinion. I asked a question. Period.

uuhhhh...yeah...well let's just say it was a guess...nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:01AM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Aaron, now would you like to answer my question?

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 1:06AM EST (link)

President Reagan writes in his signing statement that “inhumane treatment” is unacceptable, not just torture. Would the Bush Administration’s tactics be considered “inhumane?” I’m not asking if the tactics are torture. I’m asking if they fit the definition of “inhumane.” I think President Reagan’s signing statement raises some interesting and legitimate questions.

no modgopgal, I won't because you are being disingenuous...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:19AM EST (link)

and you are using selective quotes out of context. Don’t make me prove this to you…you will only be embarrassed.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Aaron, funny you don't want to answer the question

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 1:24AM EST (link)

Go ahead, embarrass me. Show me President Reagan’s signing statement in context since you said I took it out of context. I asked a simple question because I found President Reagan’s words pertinent to the discussion of this post.

ok modgopgal...you asked for it...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:43AM EST (link)

With a view to receiving the advice and consent of the Senate to ratification, subject to certain reservations, understandings, and declarations[what reservations might these be AG], I transmit herewith the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. The Convention was adopted by unanimous agreement of the United Nations General Assembly on December 10, 1984, and entered into force on June 26, 1987. The United States signed it on April 18, 1988. 1 also transmit, for the information of the Senate, the report of the Department of State on the Convention.

The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment[this is a statement about the convention itself...not Reagan's feelings on what is or is not acceptable this is where you actually lie about what Reagan said AG]. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture[notice the absence of inhuman treatment here AG], an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called “universal jurisdiction.” Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.

In view of the large number of States concerned, it was not possible to negotiate a treaty that was acceptable to the United States in all respects. Accordingly, certain reservations, understandings, and declarations have been drafted, which are discussed in the report of the Department of State. With the inclusion of these reservations, understandings, and declarations, I believe there are no constitutional or other legal obstacles to United States ratification, The recommended legislation necessary to implement the Convention will be submitted to the Congress separately.[notice again that there were separate stipulations outside of the Convention AG]

Should the Senate give its advice and consent to ratification of the Convention, I intend at the time of deposit of United States ratification to make a declaration pursuant to Article 28 that the United States does not recognize the competence of the Committee against Torture under Article 20 to make confidential investigations of charges that torture is being systematically practiced in the United States. In addition, I intend not to make declarations, pursuant to Articles 21 and 22 of the Convention, recognizing the competence of the Committee against Torture to receive and consider communications from States and individuals alleging that the United States is violating the Convention. I believe that a final United States decision as to whether to accept such competence of the Committee should be withheld until we have had an opportunity to assess the Committee’s work. It would be possible for the United States in the future to accept the competence of the Committee pursuant to Articles 20, 21, and 22, should experience with the Committee prove satisfactory and should the United States consider this step desirable.

By giving its advice and consent to ratification of this Convention, the Senate of the United States will demonstrate unequivocally our desire to bring an end to the abhorrent practice of torture.

RONALD REAGAN

So please tell me where Reagan said that :

President Reagan writes in his signing statement that “inhumane treatment” is unacceptable, not just torture.

I can do this all night…you will be my third or fourth of the day…I lose count honestly.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Thanks, Aaron, your post demonstrates

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 1:50AM EST (link)

that President Reagan signed the Convention that specifically denounced inhumane treatment. By putting his signing statement into fuller context it appears President Reagan would likely consider the tactics of the Bush Administration in violation of the Convention.

I wasn’t sure from reading the signing statement I posted but your broader post clearly shows that President Reagan would find today’s tactics at odds with the Convention he signed.

oh bull

E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:52AM EST (link)

that is a load of crap. Tell me how you reach a conclusion like that.

Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO

For starters...

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 1:55AM EST (link)

“I transmit herewith the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.”

That is the name of the Convention...what should he have called it??

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:57AM EST (link)

really you are clueless.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


My point was President Reagan signed

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 2:02AM EST (link)

a treaty that specifically addressed and expressly condemned “Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.” Not just torture. I think most would agree that waterboarding isn’t exactly humane. At the very least it is “degrading treatment.” President Reagan specifically signed a convention that denounces more than just torture. The convention covers a broad range of tactics that would be considered cruel, inhumane, and degrading.

your problem is you are disregarding the fact that there where stipulations outside of the Convention...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:06AM EST (link)

With the inclusion of these reservations, understandings, and declarations

What were those reservations, understandings, and declarations??

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


here modgopgal..I will even make this easy for you...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:29AM EST (link)

That the United States considers itself bound by the obligation under article 16 to prevent “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment”, only insofar as the term “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.

and just in case you are wondering Cruel and Unusual is not defined in any of those amendments in the way you would like to portray it…you should just admit that you lifted this argument from <a href=”http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/3/28/714090/-Spanish-Court-Opens-Torture-Inquiry-Against-Gonzales,-Addington,-Yoo,-Others”dailykos and stop.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


ooops broken tag...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:34AM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

You're barking up the wrong tree, Aaron

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 2:36AM EST (link)

I asked the question about the Convention because I was curious what others thought, not because I agree with President Reagan. As I noted in another post, if I were President I would simply ignore the Convention, as well as US law and use every painful, humiliating, nearly life threatening tactic I could find to use on suspects if I knew the tactics would save American lives.

You and Stang made assumptions about me — erroneous assumptions — that because I am a moderate I’m soft. Well, wrong. I’m probably a lot tougher on these kinds of issues than most at Redstate. In addition to being a fiscal conservative, I’m tough on criminals. As I have noted in previous posts, I even support the death penalty for pediphiles. So don’t peg me as a squish on these kinds of issues.

like I said modgopgal..you would then still be wrong...we are a nation of laws and we don't support torture...*you* do....nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:38AM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

oh and you keep claiming to be a fiscon but you still haven't ever written a diary sharing your thought on that....

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:48AM EST (link)

did you think I forgot this conversation , so who’s fault are you gonna say it is today??

And really I haven’t found a comment fromyou yet that has been anywhere near Republican in thought.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 
 
 
 

You are arguing in circles

E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 5:01PM EST (link)

because, again, you assume, a priori, there is something wrong with waterboarding as an interrogation technique.

So when you come up for air, just let me know.

Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO

 
 
 
 
 

and honestly it wasn't that I didn't want to answer the question...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:49AM EST (link)

it’s that smarmy little people like you piss me off and I would like to sleep well tonight.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Very mature

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 1:51AM EST (link)

I ask a question and you insult me. Nice.

no no modgopgal...you asked a disingenuous question and then tried to act tough...and I smacked you down...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:55AM EST (link)

too bad your reading comprehension skills are sharp enough to see it.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Aaron, I hardly feel "smacked down"

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 1:57AM EST (link)

In fact, your post answered my question quite clearly. Thanks.

like I said...reading comp gal....nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:58AM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 

Redirect to the "victim" mode

zeebeach Saturday, April 25th at 7:10AM EST (link)

Thanks, Aaron, for taking the time and trouble to do this. You are a hero to me.

No problem zeebeach...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:17PM EST (link)

it’s easy when you are defending the truth.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Feeding the trolls

olsmithie (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:46PM EST (link)

Aaron, you have much more patience than I!

Well rebutted, but obviously he wasn’t interested in any view but his own.

Regards

“When you tell the truth , it’s easy to keep your story straight.”

oldsmithie...patience is a virtue...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:52PM EST (link)

And I knew at the onset that modgopgal wasn’t actually going to concede…the real payoff was when she decided to come out for blanket torture out of frustration from the smack down she had received…muhawhahawahwa!!!

Oh and that quote is so true!!

Thanks.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Modgopgal: So you're trolling.

Neil Stevens (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:18PM EST (link)

If I catch you again just asking questions for trolling purposes wihtout giving your own opinion, I’m banning you.

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

 
 

an elementary Alinsky tactic, Aaron

streiff (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 7:13AM EST (link)

the twit seems to forget that we actively supported both the Salvadoran government and the Nicaraguan contras, Afghan mujahadeen, as well as Jonas Savimbi’s UNITA movement under Reagan without him experiencing any great spiritual angst.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

Streiff...you are exactly right...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:15PM EST (link)

But I have no problem taking an alinskyite to task…my only questing is why I don’t see a little line through the date on her profile. She lied and I believe it was knowingly. And when confronted with the irrefutable truth she decided to come right out and support torture…which is wrong as we are a nation of laws.

Anyhow since she still is here I would still love to see her write a diary about her “Fiscal Conservatism”.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 
 

I have a better idea modgopgal.

stang (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:54AM EST (link)

Speculating on what a dead man might have been thinking is a fool’s errand. I’ll thank you to not further insult me with such invitations.

Since we can’t ask a dead man what he thinks why don’t you tell us what you think? hmmm?

Or are you trying to make some other point here?

“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any farther obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence.”

John Locke

yeah I know: reply to this please, modgopgal

stang (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:56AM EST (link)

reply to this is my friend x 100.

“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any farther obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence.”

John Locke

 

Stang, I thought folks who are older than I

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 12:58AM EST (link)

and who remember President Reagan might have a better sense what he thought when he penned that signing statement.

or maybe you were being deliberately obtuse...nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:03AM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


So that was the purpose of your inquiry?

stang (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:08AM EST (link)

To imply that someone who may or may not be older than you should be better able to read a dead (or alive as I may be older than you) man’s mind? I think not.

You seem conflicted about something here. Spit it out.

“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any farther obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence.”

John Locke

Modgopgal, see my reply here.

stang (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:10AM EST (link)

Multitasking tonite, sorry ’bout the button snafu.

“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any farther obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence.”

John Locke

Stang, I'm simply asking a question

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 1:13AM EST (link)

As I posted to Aaron, and as I will post to you — President Reagan writes in his signing statement that “inhumane treatment” is unacceptable, not just torture. Would the Bush Administration’s tactics be considered “inhumane?” I’m not asking if the tactics are torture. I’m asking if they fit the definition of “inhumane.” I think President Reagan’s signing statement raises some interesting and legitimate questions.

For example, are tactics, such as waterboarding, which you may not consider torture, “inhumane?” If another country used these same tactics on US soldiers would you consider those tactics “inhumane?”

No, they would *not* be considered inhumane

E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:44AM EST (link)

But it’s cute of you to try to stretch different-situation ethics onto it, modgal.

Inhumane treatment in the context that Reagan addressed, was in reference to general treatment of POWs and detainees. Sleeping quarters, blankets, decent food, not being punched in the face by guards, etc.

Interrogation is a whole different subject. And the question of “inhumane” is not even relevent.

Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO

So let me spell it out for you

E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:48AM EST (link)

waterboarding a high-value detainee with vital intel, in order to get him to tell you that stuff without actually causing injury or even pain would be extremely humane, considering the alternatives [bamboo shoots, cutting off fingers, etc]

Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO

 

I'm not sure President Reagan

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 1:53AM EST (link)

would agree with your conclusions.

I think I trust my judgement on that better than yours

E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 4:59PM EST (link)

nt

Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO

 
 
 

Well considering we use them on our own soldiers...no I wouldn't....nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 1:44AM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


You're never going to be able to answer the question.

Steph C (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 7:36AM EST (link)

Unless you give the answer she wants to see. She wants you to fail so she can go back to her buddies and brag how a liberal bested the best and brightest of RedState.

But, for all that, you can have fun trying. Anybody with a lick of sense will see who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s nice to have evidence of their idiocy.

By modgopgal’s definition, what Congress and Obama are doing to this country could be considered cruel and inhumane. I can’t say unusual because Carter and others did it before.

We’re drowning in the excesses of Washington D.C. and we don’t get to come up for air after 30 seconds. This is a multiple lifetimes treatment. We’re being punished for not worshipping progressivism and our sins will be visited upon our descendents.

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

5^, StephC! modgopgal serves the same purpose here as an irritant

janis (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 9:09AM EST (link)

serves to produce pearls. Most regular commenters here battle her/it’s inanities with information, quotes, links, and personal experience. The upshot is that we are a stronger community for all that we learn or reinforce by having to deal with such deceptive idiots.

It’s interesting that she usually shows up only in the threads about gay marriage or “torture.” The left in general is disturbingly focused on the subject of torture, don’t you think? And who among us doesn’t believe that they would subscribe wholeheartedly to torturing the likes of US if they could have the chance? Their focus on inflicting pain and pursuing perversion is most telling of who they are.

It's all okay, janis.

Steph C (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 9:41AM EST (link)

If this administration and Congress continue to pursue their retrofitting of laws for some sort of vendetta, I’m game.

Eventually, they’ll be the ones under the foot of the laws made with their own hands and I’m not in favor of “moving on” and giving them a chance to rewrite them once they’re out of power.

In fact, I’m in favor of a law now that makes them liable to forfeiture of their entire fortunes for what they’ve done to this country. That would be torture indeed, if they were forced to live under the rules they’ve made for everyone else… And it will be entirely bipartisan.

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Moral relativism is not a substitute for critical thinking, modgopgal

stang (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:11AM EST (link)

That “I” may not consider torture? ( But you do think it’s torture, therefore making you my moral superior? ) Please, cease with your insulting insinuations.

You’re not asking a question, you’re presuming to cast aspersions on anyone (me in this case) who disagrees with your views and then ask us to agree with your moral relativist point of view with neither an agreeable definition of humane or any context as would be required to make such a judgement.

You’re either incredibly naive, disingeuous or both.

“The heart of the hypocrite is hid in his breast; he masketh his words in the semblance of truth, while the business of his life is only to deceive.”

Akhenaton

“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any farther obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence.”

John Locke

stang she is totally disingenuous....nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:12AM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

If you read my posts

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 2:19AM EST (link)

I never once offered my opinion about these issues. I asked questions. And when people responded I asked some additional questions. You have no idea what I think about the topic of enhanced interrogation techniques because I haven’t offered any opinion about them.

How can you write the following about me when I haven’t said “boo” about what I think of the Bush Administration tactics? I haven’t said one word about whether I think the tactics are torture are not. Nor have I said I’m morally superior because you have NO idea what my opinions are on this topic. I HAVEN’T OFFERED ANY. Yet.

“( But you do think it’s torture, therefore making you my moral superior? ) Please, cease with your insulting insinuations.

You’re not asking a question, you’re presuming to cast aspersions on anyone (me in this case) who disagrees with your views and then ask us to agree with your moral relativist point of view with neither an agreeable definition of humane or any context as would be required to make such a judgement.”

right...that is what being disingenuous means...nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:33AM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

Let me cast another aspersion, modgopgal

Jack_Savage (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 10:08AM EST (link)

I think you are a Republican like I am Snoop Dogg. You are a cross between a “Concern Troll” and a “I’m Just Curious” troll. Let me summarize your completely transparent posts:

“It seems that my hero, Ronald Reagan, spoke out forcefully against waterboarding by signing this agreement, and I feel him speaking to me from the grave. He is saying that he is sad about George Bush. I am Concerned.”

and:

“Boy, I have gone through the comments at Daily Kos and have found an issue that would likely suck up a lot of time on Redstate. Here is what my friends at Kos say – does anyone care to debate me so I can post their responses over there? I won’t offer any opinions, and have never offered an opinion, because I am Curious.”

and then, the big tell:

“You want an opinion? OK – I am a conservative, so I would cut off digits and pull out fingernails and gouge eyes out and drill teeth, because I am so poisoned by the left I think that’s what you guys believe in. Also, I might do that to homos too, because I think that’s what you call them and that is also the way you feel about them.”

You are completely full of it. Period.

modgopgal, you MUST read the parent comment

Matthew Morris (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 10:37PM EST (link)

This is the best darned comment I have read in forever. How I would love to read the thoughts of modgopgal as she read Jack’s comment.

I like it when squishy libs finally realize that the left’s “intellectualism” is in actuality an unanchored mess of irrationality, without foundation, devoid of any real substance, meaning, or purpose, wandering aimlessly through political life- searching for meaning and purpose, or attempting to create its own. This is when a select few do an about face and come home to reason. But most, with renewed vigor, keep at the tangled mess of fishing line.


“I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Ipsum esse subsistens

 
 

We fully understand why you don't offer an opinion.

mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 12:38PM EST (link)

You’re not smart enough to form one.

You’re an abstract from the Wizard of Oz. I suspect somebody gave you a “Degree” and now you think you’ve got a brain. You don’t.

 
 
 

So since Stang and Aaron seem so curious

modgopgal Saturday, April 25th at 2:24AM EST (link)

about my opinions on torture, here they are:

Frankly, I don’t care what the Convention says, nor do I care about the law. If I were interrogating prisoners I would torture them, including pulling their fingernails off, burning them with cigarettes, using electrodes, and starving them, if I knew it would save American lives. And after I was done with them, I’d execute them.

So stop making assumptions, especially when you both are sooo way off.

well modgopgal you would be in the wrong then....we are a nation of laws...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:32AM EST (link)

and when you are being disingenuous you give us no choice but to assume such

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

Now there's that inner Che you've been repressing modgirl.

stang (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:35AM EST (link)

Feel better now that you’ve gotten that off your chest?

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.”

Carl Jung

“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any farther obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence.”

John Locke

stang...I love how they think *that* is what we want to hear...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:36AM EST (link)

or the we would accept that.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Imagine would be more accurate than think Aa.

stang (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:49AM EST (link)

Think would imply a facility with the concepts of logic and reason.

“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any farther obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence.”

John Locke

good point stang...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 2:51AM EST (link)

ok …you have the helm…I am going to bed…;^)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 
 

{ROFL} You truly are an idiot.

Martin Knight (Diary) Monday, April 27th at 5:16AM EST (link)

No doubt you think this is the official “Republican” position when it’s the diametric opposite.

With this, you’ve come out truly as a creature of the Left – Che, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, all Socialists, will applaud you as well-trained by your commissarscollege professors.

Look, you idiot, it’s been obvious from the moment you came on this site that you’re about as “Republican” as Meghan McCain – heck, considering how vapid you are, you probably *are* Meghan McCain.

 
 

Bravo! I wish I would have written this piece . . .

Yahuti (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 5:39AM EST (link)

GEB -

U.S. Army Special Forces 1964 – 1970: SE Asia, Latin America, Europe, Africa. Hostage of the Khmer Rouge (‘Guest’ of Anka) for 40 days at one point.

Think of all the ‘torture stories’ we might tell . . .

A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to ‘The United States of America’ for an amount of ‘up to and including my life.’ That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

De Opresso Liber

 

Awesome diary. nt

Kenny Solomon (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 8:10AM EST (link)

Excellent piece

woodsman (Diary) Saturday, April 25th at 9:52AM EST (link)

When I first started to read this I wondered where it was going. As I continued I begin to suspect it sounded like training for rescue swimmers or competitive swimming (which I also did in school).

At the time, I also thought it was torture because it forced all of us to find new levels of determination and yes it did hurt. But the funny thing is, it did not cause lasting damage. In fact, it may have provided life extending benefits to last a long while.

The difference between the type of torture experienced by competitive swimmers and other physical training regiments (say the military) and the variety the PC crowd (liberals) speak of pales by comparison. They are simply twisting words and scaring people to look self righteous (when they are not).