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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t Let Them Cast NY23 as a Battle Over Social Policy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/</link>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 03:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-156</guid>
		<description>I agree with everything but your last paragraph, but I see where the problem lies. I&#039;m not distinguishing between SoCons and FiCons, I&#039;m characterizing the Tea Party movement. There are at least as many SoCons within the movement as there are FiCons. What they have agreed on is essentially the four issues I&#039;ve listed out. These are not issues exclusive to FiCons OR SoCons (or even some of the conspiratorial whack jobs that inevitably show up for these sorts of things). They are aims with which both groups agree, although they may arrive at that support from different routes. To attempt to split them by claiming the issue as either FiCon or SoCon is to undermine the movement itself. I believe that both FiCons and SoCons believe that if we can simply return government to its correct constitutional form, their arguments will win the day with the majority of the American people and their views will then prevail. Ultimately only one of them will be correct about the second part, but they are both correct about the need to get back to limited government. No need to fight the second battle until after the first one is complete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with everything but your last paragraph, but I see where the problem lies. I&#8217;m not distinguishing between SoCons and FiCons, I&#8217;m characterizing the Tea Party movement. There are at least as many SoCons within the movement as there are FiCons. What they have agreed on is essentially the four issues I&#8217;ve listed out. These are not issues exclusive to FiCons OR SoCons (or even some of the conspiratorial whack jobs that inevitably show up for these sorts of things). They are aims with which both groups agree, although they may arrive at that support from different routes. To attempt to split them by claiming the issue as either FiCon or SoCon is to undermine the movement itself. I believe that both FiCons and SoCons believe that if we can simply return government to its correct constitutional form, their arguments will win the day with the majority of the American people and their views will then prevail. Ultimately only one of them will be correct about the second part, but they are both correct about the need to get back to limited government. No need to fight the second battle until after the first one is complete.</p>
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		<title>By: aesthete</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-155</link>
		<dc:creator>aesthete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-155</guid>
		<description>After all, there will always be some form of &quot;death panel&quot; in any rationing scheme that we adopt for healthcare insurance, even in a private, free market system: the difference is that in a free market system, you are free to take your money elsewhere if your current healthcare provider&#039;s service isn&#039;t up to par with what you, as a consumer, believe is appropriate. If the argument against healthcare was simply that it would have &quot;death panels&quot;, it was an incredibly weak one, unless it was linked to the fact that the govt. is a monopoly, etc., which would then make it a fiscal/libertarian reason for why to not go the public option route.

Likewise, &quot;Too Big to Fail&quot; isn&#039;t a socially conservative issue; the argument of moral hazard has primarily been raised by fiscal conservatives, and is a theme in libertarian opposition to &quot;bailouts&quot;.

Are there social conservatives who agree with these arguments? Yes, bucketloads of them! But given that there are also social moderates/liberals who agree with those two arguments, it strains credibility to call them SoCon issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After all, there will always be some form of &#8220;death panel&#8221; in any rationing scheme that we adopt for healthcare insurance, even in a private, free market system: the difference is that in a free market system, you are free to take your money elsewhere if your current healthcare provider&#8217;s service isn&#8217;t up to par with what you, as a consumer, believe is appropriate. If the argument against healthcare was simply that it would have &#8220;death panels&#8221;, it was an incredibly weak one, unless it was linked to the fact that the govt. is a monopoly, etc., which would then make it a fiscal/libertarian reason for why to not go the public option route.</p>
<p>Likewise, &#8220;Too Big to Fail&#8221; isn&#8217;t a socially conservative issue; the argument of moral hazard has primarily been raised by fiscal conservatives, and is a theme in libertarian opposition to &#8220;bailouts&#8221;.</p>
<p>Are there social conservatives who agree with these arguments? Yes, bucketloads of them! But given that there are also social moderates/liberals who agree with those two arguments, it strains credibility to call them SoCon issues.</p>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-154</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-154</guid>
		<description>I think you are right, most of us are still here. And to quote him, &quot;It wasn&#039;t that I left the party, the party left me.&quot; The first Bush tried to be a steward of what Reagan gave us, but couldn&#039;t quite pull it off. He really did believe it was &quot;vodoo economics&quot; and I still love the cartoon of him sitting at an oval office desk looking at the button, which was so labeled, in the glass case as he faced a minor recession. The second Bush wasn&#039;t any better. He didn&#039;t really believe in conservative principles, but he&#039;d seen the way his old man got mugged by the libs so he was a bit more passive aggressive in dealing with them. I believe that in his heart is a sort of Rockefeller Republican who believes in the British concept of what the upper class owes to the lower class.

I do however believe both of these men were honorable. They did their best as far as they were able. And W in particular is owed a great debt of gratitude for recognizing the GWOT and doing his best to prosecute it in what, despite initial claims to the contrary, was actually a very unfavorable domestic environment.

Unfortunately, our congressional leaders after the initial revolution were even worse than the Bushes. They squandered the legacy Reagan passed to them. And now, as is always the case, we who come after must clean up their mess and build the party again. The good news is that this time, it really is happening from the bottom up, and not the top down. With luck, and more importantly prayer, what we build now will last longer than the last one did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are right, most of us are still here. And to quote him, &#8220;It wasn&#8217;t that I left the party, the party left me.&#8221; The first Bush tried to be a steward of what Reagan gave us, but couldn&#8217;t quite pull it off. He really did believe it was &#8220;vodoo economics&#8221; and I still love the cartoon of him sitting at an oval office desk looking at the button, which was so labeled, in the glass case as he faced a minor recession. The second Bush wasn&#8217;t any better. He didn&#8217;t really believe in conservative principles, but he&#8217;d seen the way his old man got mugged by the libs so he was a bit more passive aggressive in dealing with them. I believe that in his heart is a sort of Rockefeller Republican who believes in the British concept of what the upper class owes to the lower class.</p>
<p>I do however believe both of these men were honorable. They did their best as far as they were able. And W in particular is owed a great debt of gratitude for recognizing the GWOT and doing his best to prosecute it in what, despite initial claims to the contrary, was actually a very unfavorable domestic environment.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, our congressional leaders after the initial revolution were even worse than the Bushes. They squandered the legacy Reagan passed to them. And now, as is always the case, we who come after must clean up their mess and build the party again. The good news is that this time, it really is happening from the bottom up, and not the top down. With luck, and more importantly prayer, what we build now will last longer than the last one did.</p>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-153</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-153</guid>
		<description>In fact, of all the state you list, I believe the only one he won the first time around was California. And if you really want to count the first time, for that one he lost to Jerry Ford.

Comparing an incumbent win to a challenger win isn&#039;t cricket.

As for Republican problems in California, maybe the reason Republicans keep losing there is precisely because so many of them look like just like Arnie on their voting records. Looks to me like Neil and some others out there are trying to change that, and with a little bit of luck there might be a choice between The Duke  and Moonbeam instead of between Tweedledum and Tweedledummer in some upcoming elections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact, of all the state you list, I believe the only one he won the first time around was California. And if you really want to count the first time, for that one he lost to Jerry Ford.</p>
<p>Comparing an incumbent win to a challenger win isn&#8217;t cricket.</p>
<p>As for Republican problems in California, maybe the reason Republicans keep losing there is precisely because so many of them look like just like Arnie on their voting records. Looks to me like Neil and some others out there are trying to change that, and with a little bit of luck there might be a choice between The Duke  and Moonbeam instead of between Tweedledum and Tweedledummer in some upcoming elections.</p>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-152</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-152</guid>
		<description>not your characterization of the Tea Party movement as primarily fiscal in nature. It isn&#039;t simply about getting government out of our wallets, it is also about rolling back government dictation of what our social morals ought to be. Doing away with the Death Panels in health care is a social issue, not a fiscal one. Doing away with &quot;Too Big to Fail&quot; isn&#039;t just a fiscal issue (although it is true we would never be able to fund all of them), it is also a moral one (how do we best provide incentives for people to succeed). Same thing with the pay Czar. How far that roll back goes is still open for debate.

The are only a few things which do actually bind the Tea Party movement together:

1. A strong belief in the US Constitution as a document of limited government.
2. An equally strong belief that the road we are currently on is one which leads inevitably to a totalitarian state.
3. The way to fix #2 is to move as strongly and as quickly back to #1 as is possible.
4. You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can&#039;t fool all of the people all of the time. Eventually the majority of the people figure it out, and when they do you&#039;d better hop to it on getting things back where they belong, or else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>not your characterization of the Tea Party movement as primarily fiscal in nature. It isn&#8217;t simply about getting government out of our wallets, it is also about rolling back government dictation of what our social morals ought to be. Doing away with the Death Panels in health care is a social issue, not a fiscal one. Doing away with &#8220;Too Big to Fail&#8221; isn&#8217;t just a fiscal issue (although it is true we would never be able to fund all of them), it is also a moral one (how do we best provide incentives for people to succeed). Same thing with the pay Czar. How far that roll back goes is still open for debate.</p>
<p>The are only a few things which do actually bind the Tea Party movement together:</p>
<p>1. A strong belief in the US Constitution as a document of limited government.<br />
2. An equally strong belief that the road we are currently on is one which leads inevitably to a totalitarian state.<br />
3. The way to fix #2 is to move as strongly and as quickly back to #1 as is possible.<br />
4. You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can&#8217;t fool all of the people all of the time. Eventually the majority of the people figure it out, and when they do you&#8217;d better hop to it on getting things back where they belong, or else.</p>
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		<title>By: The_Gadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-151</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Gadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-151</guid>
		<description>begun to question whether or not the federal government should be involved in marriage. I&#039;m adamantly against the government defining marriage to include homosexual marriage. At the same time I&#039;m not against providing long term cohabitating people with a single access point to a collection of legal rights including inheritance and hospital visitation.

As I was think about those potentially conflicting ideals, it occurred to me that my objection to the redefinition of marriage is primarily a religious one. Specifically, I don&#039;t want the federal government telling me what religious convictions should be. Redefining marriage to include homosexuals does that. Perhaps the resolution of the problem is as simple as removing the federal government from the equation. From a legal and religious perspective, I think it might strengthen the positions of both the government and religions.

I haven&#039;t finished thinking it through yet. I still need to think through the potential cultural issues and implications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>begun to question whether or not the federal government should be involved in marriage. I&#8217;m adamantly against the government defining marriage to include homosexual marriage. At the same time I&#8217;m not against providing long term cohabitating people with a single access point to a collection of legal rights including inheritance and hospital visitation.</p>
<p>As I was think about those potentially conflicting ideals, it occurred to me that my objection to the redefinition of marriage is primarily a religious one. Specifically, I don&#8217;t want the federal government telling me what religious convictions should be. Redefining marriage to include homosexuals does that. Perhaps the resolution of the problem is as simple as removing the federal government from the equation. From a legal and religious perspective, I think it might strengthen the positions of both the government and religions.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t finished thinking it through yet. I still need to think through the potential cultural issues and implications.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-150</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-150</guid>
		<description>Moonbeam&#039;s sister would have won in 94 if not for illegal immigration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moonbeam&#8217;s sister would have won in 94 if not for illegal immigration.</p>
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		<title>By: kyle8</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-149</link>
		<dc:creator>kyle8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-149</guid>
		<description>they were pretty much the same back then too. Yes there were a very few who were not real liberal, but they only gave a fig leaf to the rest of the radicals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>they were pretty much the same back then too. Yes there were a very few who were not real liberal, but they only gave a fig leaf to the rest of the radicals.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Mullins</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-148</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Mullins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-148</guid>
		<description>that you could frame the abortion issue on the topic of Taxes(more importantly more taxes), you&#039;ll have a lot of anti-abortion votes. Really, it comes as no secret that more abortions=more taxes. It also can well understood that progressism and it supplanting god for the Government, is for all points bolstered by moral relativism. I&#039;m not sure if I make diary outlining this, or let this be the final say on the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>that you could frame the abortion issue on the topic of Taxes(more importantly more taxes), you&#8217;ll have a lot of anti-abortion votes. Really, it comes as no secret that more abortions=more taxes. It also can well understood that progressism and it supplanting god for the Government, is for all points bolstered by moral relativism. I&#8217;m not sure if I make diary outlining this, or let this be the final say on the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: redneck_hippie</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-147</link>
		<dc:creator>redneck_hippie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-147</guid>
		<description>I can only add that our party needs to find ways to reach people on the positive side by framing the dialog. Paging: Marco Rubio! 

You hit on a key point when you said that our fight must be to uphold the case for morality along with the legal question. I happen to have 2 daughters who are both members of their churches, along with their husbands. They are self-proclaimed pro-choice liberal Obama koolaid drinkers. As I said, the younger gave her 1st son in adoption when she was 21. The other daughter has only been with one man in her life and of course would never have considered abortion for herself, either. The 2 of them can&#039;t be an unusual case. 

If we can educate people on the barbarism of abortion, we will change hearts and minds. The pendulum is swinging our way. 

I don&#039;t think this community is asking anyone to take any back seats. I sure am not. 
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can only add that our party needs to find ways to reach people on the positive side by framing the dialog. Paging: Marco Rubio! </p>
<p>You hit on a key point when you said that our fight must be to uphold the case for morality along with the legal question. I happen to have 2 daughters who are both members of their churches, along with their husbands. They are self-proclaimed pro-choice liberal Obama koolaid drinkers. As I said, the younger gave her 1st son in adoption when she was 21. The other daughter has only been with one man in her life and of course would never have considered abortion for herself, either. The 2 of them can&#8217;t be an unusual case. </p>
<p>If we can educate people on the barbarism of abortion, we will change hearts and minds. The pendulum is swinging our way. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this community is asking anyone to take any back seats. I sure am not.<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: Achance</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-146</link>
		<dc:creator>Achance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-146</guid>
		<description>Depending on the year, 20% or so are Rs, 20% or so are Ds.  The rest are clueless except for a few fringe types left and right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Depending on the year, 20% or so are Rs, 20% or so are Ds.  The rest are clueless except for a few fringe types left and right.</p>
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		<title>By: ceili_dancer</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-145</link>
		<dc:creator>ceili_dancer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-145</guid>
		<description>One of the reasons Wilson won was not his abortion stance, but his supports for  (if memory serves me right) prop 187.  He latched on to a fairly conservative propostion and it gave him more momentum than anything that he did by himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the reasons Wilson won was not his abortion stance, but his supports for  (if memory serves me right) prop 187.  He latched on to a fairly conservative propostion and it gave him more momentum than anything that he did by himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-144</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-144</guid>
		<description>and that was my main point.  The true mushy middle of which you speak is actually a very small percentage of the voting populace.  In the populace at large they may be a greater percentage, but non voters don&#039;t really matter in electoral politics. And electoral politics is where we can effect change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and that was my main point.  The true mushy middle of which you speak is actually a very small percentage of the voting populace.  In the populace at large they may be a greater percentage, but non voters don&#8217;t really matter in electoral politics. And electoral politics is where we can effect change.</p>
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		<title>By: Achance</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-143</link>
		<dc:creator>Achance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-143</guid>
		<description>There is a big chunk of people who haven&#039;t thought, maybe don&#039;t even know how to think, systematically about politics and government.  They are reactive and emotional.  They are liberal on some things, conservative on others, and don&#039;t care about some.  They poll as  a moderate because they are all over the dial.  What President Reagan did so masterfully was articulate a few, a very few things, mostly along the lines of government off my back and out of my pocket, that solidified these people in two election cycles.  GWB did it but not with the kind of margins that RR had and without any ideological consistency; it&#039;s the Bush disease to want to be liked by people who hate you.

What the Democrats have done so masterfully is discredit the Republican label and get fewer and fewer people paying taxes.  For Republicans, even if we couldn&#039;t engage the mushy middle on issues, they paid taxes and nobody except rich liberals wants to pay taxes - even rich liberals don&#039;t but they say they do.  So, we had the two pronged attack of resonant issues and lower taxes.  Well, half the Country doesn&#039;t care about taxes since they don&#039;t pay them, they receive them.  And the other half is all over the dial on issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a big chunk of people who haven&#8217;t thought, maybe don&#8217;t even know how to think, systematically about politics and government.  They are reactive and emotional.  They are liberal on some things, conservative on others, and don&#8217;t care about some.  They poll as  a moderate because they are all over the dial.  What President Reagan did so masterfully was articulate a few, a very few things, mostly along the lines of government off my back and out of my pocket, that solidified these people in two election cycles.  GWB did it but not with the kind of margins that RR had and without any ideological consistency; it&#8217;s the Bush disease to want to be liked by people who hate you.</p>
<p>What the Democrats have done so masterfully is discredit the Republican label and get fewer and fewer people paying taxes.  For Republicans, even if we couldn&#8217;t engage the mushy middle on issues, they paid taxes and nobody except rich liberals wants to pay taxes &#8211; even rich liberals don&#8217;t but they say they do.  So, we had the two pronged attack of resonant issues and lower taxes.  Well, half the Country doesn&#8217;t care about taxes since they don&#8217;t pay them, they receive them.  And the other half is all over the dial on issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack_Savage</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-142</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack_Savage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-142</guid>
		<description>I am not so much interested in making it illegal as I am interested in making it what it is -  abhorrent. Two different things, and the latter is well within reach.

Here is how the public argument goes:

Do we agree that we women should have all the information they require in order to make an informed choice? Good. Then they need to have information about what their ultrasound shows, information about how to collect child support and information about adoption.

Do we agree that abortion should be the last resort? We don&#039;t? Then you need to make the case that it should be the first option. Don&#039;t want to go there? Good. Then let&#039;s agree and move on.

Do we agree that America should view an abortion on TV so they can make an informed decision about this issue? We don&#039;t? You want people to consider this issue without all the facts?  Then you need to explain why. Don&#039;t want to? Then can we agree that abortion is a procedure so barbaric that we cannot show it on TV, which is exactly what you just said? Good.

Now, can we put the resources of the government to work in order to show women and men that they do have choices, and that the very last resort should be abortion - instead of government resources being used to fund and advocate for what we have agreed should be the last resort?

I&#039;ll take that for the time being. Like until 2010.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not so much interested in making it illegal as I am interested in making it what it is &#8211;  abhorrent. Two different things, and the latter is well within reach.</p>
<p>Here is how the public argument goes:</p>
<p>Do we agree that we women should have all the information they require in order to make an informed choice? Good. Then they need to have information about what their ultrasound shows, information about how to collect child support and information about adoption.</p>
<p>Do we agree that abortion should be the last resort? We don&#8217;t? Then you need to make the case that it should be the first option. Don&#8217;t want to go there? Good. Then let&#8217;s agree and move on.</p>
<p>Do we agree that America should view an abortion on TV so they can make an informed decision about this issue? We don&#8217;t? You want people to consider this issue without all the facts?  Then you need to explain why. Don&#8217;t want to? Then can we agree that abortion is a procedure so barbaric that we cannot show it on TV, which is exactly what you just said? Good.</p>
<p>Now, can we put the resources of the government to work in order to show women and men that they do have choices, and that the very last resort should be abortion &#8211; instead of government resources being used to fund and advocate for what we have agreed should be the last resort?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll take that for the time being. Like until 2010.</p>
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		<title>By: DONTTREADONME</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-141</link>
		<dc:creator>DONTTREADONME</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-141</guid>
		<description>I have, I re-read your post today.  Yesterday, the mantra from the MSM was so predictable that I had gone ballistic, your post ended up on the wrong side of my rant, see the comment of morstar, he infuriated me, sorry.  Federalism is fine with me, but we have amendments that need to be deep-sixed e.g. 17th senators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have, I re-read your post today.  Yesterday, the mantra from the MSM was so predictable that I had gone ballistic, your post ended up on the wrong side of my rant, see the comment of morstar, he infuriated me, sorry.  Federalism is fine with me, but we have amendments that need to be deep-sixed e.g. 17th senators.</p>
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		<title>By: Swamp_Yankee</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-140</link>
		<dc:creator>Swamp_Yankee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-140</guid>
		<description>You should apologize to me for thinking I have such thin skin. What do you take me for, some kind of sissy? Kidding

I was born fighting. And I live in Boston. Nothing here really offends me. I appreciate the courtesy, but I have no idea why you felt the need.

If you disagree with me. I have two words for you. Bring It. I&#039; can handle it. We&#039;ll do shots when the battle is over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should apologize to me for thinking I have such thin skin. What do you take me for, some kind of sissy? Kidding</p>
<p>I was born fighting. And I live in Boston. Nothing here really offends me. I appreciate the courtesy, but I have no idea why you felt the need.</p>
<p>If you disagree with me. I have two words for you. Bring It. I&#8217; can handle it. We&#8217;ll do shots when the battle is over.</p>
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		<title>By: LibertarianHawk</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-139</link>
		<dc:creator>LibertarianHawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-139</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t you understand that &quot;compromising with the rest of the country&quot; is precisely the mindset I&#039;m trying to get us out of?

Why should we believe that the standards desired by Massachusetts or California should have to make their way to Virginia?

But that&#039;s precisely where we get to when we forget the beauty of federalism.

I&#039;m not telling you to do more &quot;compromising with the rest of the country&quot; -- I&#039;m trying to get both sides of these divides to agree to focus on other things at the federal level....and let everybody determine their own standards at home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t you understand that &#8220;compromising with the rest of the country&#8221; is precisely the mindset I&#8217;m trying to get us out of?</p>
<p>Why should we believe that the standards desired by Massachusetts or California should have to make their way to Virginia?</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s precisely where we get to when we forget the beauty of federalism.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not telling you to do more &#8220;compromising with the rest of the country&#8221; &#8212; I&#8217;m trying to get both sides of these divides to agree to focus on other things at the federal level&#8230;.and let everybody determine their own standards at home.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-138</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-138</guid>
		<description>I am not here to prove your assertions.....and yes you did just assert.

Back it up yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not here to prove your assertions&#8230;..and yes you did just assert.</p>
<p>Back it up yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/2009/11/02/dont-let-them-cast-ny23-as-a-battle-over-social-policy/#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redstate.com/libertarianhawk/?p=2#comment-137</guid>
		<description>Jerry Brown is a two time governor himself.  That&#039;s why he&#039;s going to win in a walk. He&#039;s been around forever. He&#039;s won in this state over and over. He has no skeletons, he&#039;s a long polished politician.

He&#039;s the exact opposite of a Meg Whitman or a Carly Fiorina.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry Brown is a two time governor himself.  That&#8217;s why he&#8217;s going to win in a walk. He&#8217;s been around forever. He&#8217;s won in this state over and over. He has no skeletons, he&#8217;s a long polished politician.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s the exact opposite of a Meg Whitman or a Carly Fiorina.</p>
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