This case helpfully illustrates the fact that, in this country, the difference consists entirely of the location of the victim.
Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.
Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.
Only Renelique didn’t arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.
What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic’s owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant’s umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.
** snip **
The state Board of Medicine is to hear Renelique’s case in Tampa on Friday and determine whether to strip his license. The state attorney’s homicide division is investigating, though no charges have been filed. Terry Chavez, a spokeswoman with the Miami-Dade County State Attorney’s Office, said this week that prosecutors were nearing a decision.
Now, many people who are sending around this story to express horror about the callousness toward this child that was displayed by workers at this abortion clinic. I will agree that this is yet another piece of evidence of the total lack of moral scruples on the part of a great many abortion clinic workers. To me, however, this misses the larger point.
If the doctor in question had arrived 10 minutes earlier and and poisoned this child to death in utero, it would have been completely legal, and defended by large segments of our population (and our Supreme Court) as a “choice.” However, when the same child moved a few inches down the birth canal, the killing of that child is “murder,” and decried by the population at large. Even NOW gets in on the act:
Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.
“It really disturbed me,” said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. “I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics.”
The challenge, which I have repeatedly issued on this front page, is for some abortion advocate to come forward and defend this arbitrary line drawing on its own terms. Explain to our readership and the world why it is such a horrifying thing to kill a child ex utero and put it in a trash bag when the woman was planning (with your full moral support) to kill it in utero ten minutes earlier and put it in the same trash bag.
The business of legalized abortion is about nothing more than drawing these sorts of arbitrary lines. In America, if you are located physically ex utero, you are protected. If you are not, you are not protected. In other countries, if you are past a certain developmental stage you are protected, if you are not past that developmental stage, you are not. People tend to be comfortable with these arbitrary lines once they remain in place long enough, but the discomfiting thing about lines that are drawn on an arbitrary basis is that they can be moved for arbitrary reasons. The consequences are perhaps not so sinister when we are talking about, for instance, what sort of plaintiff can recover emotional distress damages in court. They are monstrous when we are talking about which humans have a right not to be killed. And a society that arbitrarily draws the line today at the physical entrance of the womb, or 24 weeks of development, might draw it tomorrow at the age of 1, or at the ability to talk in complete sentences, or at the first stages of puberty. If you support legalized abortion, what possible rational reason would you have to oppose moving the line to any of those locations?
It is long past time for the supporters of legalized abortion to either have the courage of their convictions, or re-examine whether their convictions are worth holding in the first place.
Steve Maley
KnightsofMalta
Bravo, Leon.
randy streu (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 5:20PM EST (link)This is a perfect illustration, as disgusting and infuriating as the situation itself is. I, too, would like to hear a pro-abortion advocate explain the difference. Anyone?
Blogging also at
SLC Republitarian
The Minority Report
Same question
Mike Gray Friday, February 6th at 11:09AM EST (link)I’ve posed the same question to people countless times. What’s the arbitrary line in the sand? I’ve never spoken to a person who could even make a logical argument on the matter. So, I join you in asking. I’d also like to hear someone explain the difference.
Hunting down the RINOs at rinosafari.com
I guess Obama is pleased she wasn't burdened with a mistake.
phxg (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 5:40PM EST (link)nt
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. –Aristotle
as well as
Dan McLaughlin (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 7:32PM EST (link)that no additional doctor was required to be present who would have stopped it from happening.
“No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong.” – Winston Churchill
And as Miss Pelosi said, not a burden on the system.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 9:14PM EST (link)They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
Depraved
MikeO Thursday, February 5th at 6:35PM EST (link)There was a State Senator in Illinois who argued that the baby’s life was forfeit so far as the state is concerned once the mother decided to have it killed for her.
His name escapes me at the moment. It was some weird foreign name. Three syllables. Ended in a vowel sound. Was it Mengele?
You are right - this should be the poster child to Obama's infanticide comments!!!
Elizabeth Christian (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 6:37PM EST (link)n/t
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
~Benjamin Franklin
EXACTLY!!
bk (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 11:26PM EST (link)That’s why one of the lines you quoted is what struck me when I read the article a little earlier: “Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.”
That statement is complete hogwash. The hard-core NARAL/Planned Parenthood types only “concern” would be that allegations were made against this innocent “health care provider” when she did nothing other than to “assist the mom in exercising her choice”.
Now there would be group of not-so-hardcore people – those who are pro-choice but with limits of various types such as PBA bans – who would find it horrifying.
But certainly our President and anyone in Congress who took money from Emily’s List would fall into the first category.
Heck I can see it now.. Obama nominates that clinic owner to run the NIH and begs us not to let one “mistake” ruin a lifetime of public service.
I don't know Florida law but...
Elizabeth Christian (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 6:52PM EST (link)in my opinion this is murder – she had to think about it and find scissors – do something she had no business doing (tack on practicing medicine without a license), and taking according to the facts in the story a healthy baby and taking actions which led to that baby’s death. This person should go to prison.
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
~Benjamin Franklin
Agreed...
fmaidment (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 7:20PM EST (link)In cases such as rape, incest and immediate life-threatening health issues, I believe in choice. In the case of, “I just don’t want a baby,” I believe that the “choice” has already been made.
Even if I believed that “just because” was a good reason, 23 weeks is far too long to wait. The baby is capable of surviving outside the womb and is most certainly an individual human being with rights.
I know I differ with many of you on this, but I don’t believe abortion should be completely outlawed. Despite my belief that all life is precious and that each child is a miracle from God, I cannot allow myself the luxury of forcing that belief on another person. However this is totally unacceptable behavior by the girl, the doctor and the clinic owner. Any rational person should be able to see that an abortion at 23 weeks is wrong. Throwing a living, breathing human being in a bag to suffocate is murder.
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“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
– - Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791
Please explain the difference...
mbecker908 (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 7:56PM EST (link)Throwing a living, breathing human being in a bag to suffocate is murder.
and…
…I cannot allow myself the luxury of forcing that belief on another person.
In the world of “Makes No Sense”, this line of reasoning is King.
5555555555 - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 8:10PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Remind me of the Queen in "Through the Looking Glass"
civil truth (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 8:29PM EST (link)“I can’t believe that!” said Alice.
“Can’t you?” the queen said in a pitying tone. “Try again, draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.”
Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said. “One can’t believe impossible things.”
“I dare say you haven’t had much practice,” said the queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
Source
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Crap...you beat me to the flame out...let me toast this critter a little more!!!
AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 8:59PM EST (link)OK…by your own definition…what was done in this case was murder but had the doctor been there and had the baby been dismembered and snuffed out before it drew that first breath it would have been legal….yet you believe each life is precious and a gift from God?
PLEASE!!!
You prove Leon’s point How can it be so clearly murder in one instant when moments before it was legal and simply a choice? How can you possibly justify such obvious and blatant inconsistency just because you don’t want to “impose your will on another”?
How anyone can say what you and the choice crowd say in an effort to appear thoughtful and tolerant and so much smarter than those on the other side of this issue and not see the foolishness…inconsistency…and utter barbarity of this issue and your preposterous argument is beyond me!
Read the whole thing...
fmaidment (Diary) Saturday, February 7th at 12:44PM EST (link)I clearly say that an abortion at 23 weeks is wrong and should not be permitted. A few minutes here or there would not have changed my mind that this was murder.
It is my belief that, under limited circumstances, abortions should be available. Especially for a fetus that cannot survive outside its mother’s womb, or for a woman who would die if she were to go through with the pregnancy. I also believe that a woman who is raped or was the victim of incest was not given her rightful choice. But again, that choice should end when a child is capable of surviving outside the womb.
At 23 weeks, a fetus most definitely can survive.
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“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
– - Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791
a million +
JakePrime (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 10:04PM EST (link)nt
Perfectly logical.
Flagstaff (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 7:01PM EST (link)Logic has never been a strong point with the abortion rights crowd.
“The press is so powerful in its image-making role that it can make a criminal look like he’s the victim and make the victim look like he’s the criminal. If you aren’t careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”– Malcolm X, Audubon Ballroom, December 13, 1964
Truth Be Told
JHancock (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 7:11PM EST (link)What happened to the baby was likely kinder than an abortion would have been. I don’t know which procedure was planned. If it was poisoning, then the umbilical vein would have had a lethal bolus of drug-possibly anesthetic-injected into it, bringing the child death through it’s nurturing vein. The child would then either be delivered stillborn via induced labor or be taken out through an incision. This is basically what happened anyway. The vein was cut and the child asphyxiated. If a D&E were performed, the baby would have had it much worse. Rather than death by hypoxia or overdose, forceps would be passed through the uterus and used to crush the skull of the baby. Then it would be torn up into manageable sized pieces and brought out through the vagina. This is if it is lucky enough to have an “ethically concerned” abortionist and happens to be facing head down at the time of abortion. If it is breach down, it’s likely it would be taken out in pieces with its head crushed last. Face the facts. Killing an inconvenient child is not much different from killing an inconvenient elder, or disabled person, or bum. Sure it’s good for the mother and maybe even society, but it’s still wrong. Kind of like killing inconvenient liberal politicians-good for the taxpayer, helpful to society, but unfortunately…still wrong
Abandonment was a kinder and gentler murder?
civil truth (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 8:22PM EST (link)Can’t imagine much worse than what was done to a concious living being here.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Just pointing out
JHancock (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 1:15AM EST (link)the brutality of abortion. What happened was terrible-but it is likely less egregious than what happens to thousands of unborn every year. Abortion is murder…and in many cases also torture.
As I read the article...the baby didn't die of asphyxia...
AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 9:06PM EST (link)but bled out through the umbilical cord because they didn’t bother to clamp it off before severing it. According to the article, the autopsy showed oxygen ion the lungs proving the child had drawn breath!
Is there a way we can make abortion retroactive for certain people. Not meaning nothin, just a thought.
gekster (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 9:23PM EST (link)>nt<
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved
I believe the scientific term is post-natal abortion
bannedtroll Thursday, February 5th at 10:01PM EST (link)I’m not sure our commander in chief quite fits my definition of human, since we’re all entitled to our own “choice” of what human is (the mole on the side of his nose disqualifies him, in my book). Are we within our rights to perform an involuntary post-natal abortion on him?
I’m a banned Democrat who came here to promote the idea that Republicans are racists for disliking Barack Obama.
Its above his pay grade - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 10:05PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I disagree - he's a constitutional law professor, right?
David123 (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 10:15PM EST (link)What part of “all persons BORN or naturalized” does he not understand???
What this blog describes is not an abortion, it was a person being deprived of his/her civil rights – a United States citizen.
David123
OK...I know we're being baited because I think I know your answer...
AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 11:30PM EST (link)but since you put the quotes around “Born”, your position is that had this child been killed before it drew a breath it should be legal?
Not "Born" or naturalized
JHancock (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 1:24AM EST (link)this is the 14th amendment, which states, who is recognized as a citizen with rights…not who is a person. For example, a person visiting from China is not a citizen with rights, however he still enjoys some legal protection as a person. Shoot him and you will still stand trial for murder.
I realise that...it's just they way he phrased that...
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 9:46AM EST (link)When David says:
He leaves the question open as to whether the baby being killed earlier en utero he believes it should be legal…which proves Leon’s point that it’s an arbitrary line as to who can be killed on a whim and who is protected as a person under the law!
true...arbitrary
JHancock (Diary) Saturday, February 7th at 10:44PM EST (link)and not constitutional, RVW unconstitutional decision as well, as it ruled that since fetuses wern’t people, the mother’s rights took precidence. Truth be told, the constitution says nothing about who is a person (except in a clause that was removed after the civil war in the 3/5ths law that could be construed to say a person is a “taxable” human—which in the case of a fetus would qualify as they can inherit, and thus pay taxes.)
A certain segment of the population might favor post-natal abortions
civil truth (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 10:08PM EST (link)Among those who have raised teens, I suspect not a few would like to legalize abortions up through the 75th trimester.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Well, you know
Lammo (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 12:20AM EST (link)certain people are alive only because it’s unlawful to kill them.
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
sorry
JHancock (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 1:19AM EST (link)got my facts mixed up…but actually exsanguination and asphyxia are experienced the same by the brain and tissues–both result in lack of tissue oxygenation. So same thing—If you are outraged…GOOD. Be even more outraged at the even more cruel and painful death that was scheduled for this child and that happens without comment every day in this country!!
I get the point but I fail to see how the original proceedure would have been worse than what occurred..
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 9:53AM EST (link)I realize we’re into an argument of degrees on this part but were I allowed to choose the method of my death….being poisoned to my mind would be far better than being knocked from a chair having my life sustaining lifeline severed and stuffed into a trash bag and then a trash can…
That being said…your point that there should be outrage concerning ALL abortions is well taken I just think your point could have been made in a better way.
She was on Laura Ingraham
Menlo (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 1:41AM EST (link)The woman was speaking on the Laura Ingraham show (I believe the same one), and stated she chose digoxin. That’s where they stab the baby’s heart with poison causing instant death. In this case, the abortionist was so busy poisoning the other babies that he forgot hers. So she got the drugs to go into labor but not the one to kill the baby.
A movie is being made that is based on her story that will hopefully expose a practice that is likely common. While we heard a lot about the refusal to report rape, we heard little about that same group’s video at the Planned Parenthood in New Jersey where they stated it is common for babies to survive a short time.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Thank goodness this didn't happen to a wolf pup,
Tbone (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 8:14PM EST (link)Ashley Judd would be making another video.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
555555555555555555555
Darin_H (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 10:51PM EST (link)n/t
A visionary coward says that anger can be power, as long as there’s a victim on TV – Flat Top, Goo Goo Dolls
Forward looking thoughts
fisk2521 Thursday, February 5th at 9:44PM EST (link)This story truly renders me speechless.
My granddaughter was born 4 weeks prematurely. She is almost a year now and of course incredibly beautiful and smart. To say I love her is inadequate. I looked at her immediately after she was born add wondered how anyone could even suggest she had no rights as a human being because she wasn’t full term.
What have we bcome?
“A Child, more than all other gifts
That earth can offer to declining man,
Brings hope with it, and forward looking thoughts.”
Wordsworth
LDavis
what have we become? barbarians
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 9:53PM EST (link)The supreme court opened up pandora’s box to kill the “small” to make it easier to make the BMW payments.
when we the people were cut out…
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
That's an insult to barbarians...
furious (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 9:22AM EST (link)…they don’t rationalize their cruelties, nor do they inflict “good intentions” on their victims.
–furious
“I find your lack of faith disturbing.” — Darth Vader
That's an insult to barbarians...
furious (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 9:22AM EST (link)…they don’t rationalize their cruelties, nor do they inflict “good intentions” on their victims.
–furious
“I find your lack of faith disturbing.” — Darth Vader
About Rape & Incest
JX12 (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 10:28PM EST (link)Fred Maidment: “In cases such as rape, incest and immediate life-threatening health issues, I believe in choice. In the case of, “I just don’t want a baby,” I believe that the “choice” has already been made.”
Maybe I could somewhat understand when it comes down to the life of the mother vs. the life of the child (although I know women who believe abortion is wrong even then, and have said they’d sooner die than abort); but a child who is the product of rape or incest is still a human being. He can’t help what happened to his mother, and should not have to pay the ultimate price for it.
If you were the product of a rape, would you want to be considered less of a human being than another unborn child who is not? I wonder what adults who were conceived via rape (and – obviously – were carried to term) must think of people who believe similarly conceived babies aren’t worth saving.
Is the child of a rape human?
Beaglescout (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 11:14PM EST (link)Two days after being born, is the child of rape human? One day after? The day of? One day before? Two days before? How many days before birth for our Benjamin Button, when each day is not very different from the next? How much does that child change, growing younger in the womb, day after day? And on which of those days, after which of those changes, is the child no longer human? A twelve week old child in the womb is recognizably human, with fingernails and toenails, that sucks its thumb and kicks its feet. When does our incredible shrinking child of rape or incest lose its humanity?
When?
I think it loses its humanity when it disappears. And when is that? At fertilization.
“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”
Yes
JHancock (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 1:05AM EST (link)they are human. The fact that someone’s parent is a bad person doesn’t negate their humanity. I sympathize with the mother, that she has to be reminded of the event for a whole nine months. I fully support the public execution of all adult (18y/o and up) rapists, especially if it is a repeat offence. I do not think the mother should be financially responsible for the raising of the child or her medical bills from the pregnancy (this money as well as “reprisal” money should be taken from the rapist father, or if he can’t pay-be paid for by the sale of his organs after his execution).
But the child is not at fault, has done nothing wrong, and should retain all the rights of a person.
does an embryo, regardless of means of...
furious (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 9:25AM EST (link)…conception, have a full complement of human DNA? Yes. When? At conception.
And a visibly-beating heart as early as ten weeks.
–furious
“I find your lack of faith disturbing.” — Darth Vader
A full complement of human DNA
JHancock (Diary) Saturday, February 7th at 10:54PM EST (link)does not make human. Gene chip arrays can have a full complement. Each cell in your body has a full complement. The smudge you leave on a wine glass is has a full complement. What I was saying is that it takes a full complement + the means to develop (blood supply from the uturus) to be a person. This is an important distinction as otherwise anything that reduced chances of implantation could be murder–overweight women trying to concieve (even the natural way–IUD’s–probably all birth control to some extent–poor nutrition, stress at work, strenious excercise…the list could go on. Saying person hood begins at implantation-the traditional legal and Biblical definition of conception-makes more sense.
“I knew you while you were in the womb” not “I knew you 24h after your father lay with your mother”
Womb=uterus not falopian tube
Women who are raped are provided free of charge the morning after pill
phxg (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 12:06AM EST (link)At least that’s how the City of Phoenix handles it. The choice to take the pill resides with the woman.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. –Aristotle
Not sure fertilization
JHancock (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 12:58AM EST (link)Most fertilized eggs don’t have the potential to become a human. An unknown amount simply float past the uterine walls and out. Others will not implant correctly due to genetic anomalies. I’ve heard numbers as low as 1 in 4 for successful implantation. Also before and shortly after implantation a fertilized egg can become a twin-in the lab it can be made into thirty or forty twins. So is a fertilized egg one person or forty? If we elect to get pregnant the natural way and not in a lab are we denying 39 babies a chance at life?
I think implantation is a better marker for life. Once a blood supply has been established the fetus will develop and be born a human being. At this point it is certainly a person, not two people, and not a 1/4 potential chance of being a person. Unless abortion doctors or unexpected trauma or illness intervene, this child will be born, and grow into a functioning, autonomous person with a unique personality, thoughts and feelings.
Saying the line is fertilization is difficult to justify, and also relies on the assumption that the zygote will develop into just one person, and that it will implant.
Also a religious/philosophical argument for this—would God really allow 3/4 people to die without the chance to live a life and know Him? –I personally don’t think so. Rather I think that it is the will and hand of God that guides the unlikely and chance events (successful ovulation, fertilization, and implantation) that gives rise to a viable embryo, with a sustainable supply of nutrients and oxygen that is a new human life, and a gift to His world.
Try to tell that to a woman who has just experienced
phxg (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 1:52AM EST (link)the sheer humiliation of a FNE examination. All while being observed by an officer (male or female).
Although I did have one who declined the pill. She said if God had wanted her to have a child because of what happened, then that was what He wanted. It’s difficult to follow that logic as the result of a gang rape.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. –Aristotle
I don't know what's so hard about following that logic...
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 10:01AM EST (link)if the product of that rape is a person…then the fact that he was conceived as a result of the rape doesn’t make him any less human…that’s why I sometimes think that those that oppose abortion except in the instances of rape or incest are worse than those who favor abortion in any circumstance…
How so?
By saying you are against an abortion because it is the taking of a human life but favor letting a person who was a victim of a rape or incest kill what you acknowledge is a human life is indefensible…at least someone who favors all abortions can make the argument that they believe the product of the abortion is not a person!
Not this Ace...
phxg (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 11:10AM EST (link)“then the fact that he was conceived as a result of the rape doesn’t make him any less human”
That the logic of raising a child that was the product of the rape.
Certainly that child has a soul and is 100% the same as one conceived through love and has the same opportunity to grow into a productive person. But at the same time, the logic is that every day that woman is going to view that child as a result of that horrible event.
But no, I am against abortion, and certainly hope that any and all would choose life. However, in these cases I believe it is totally her choice to take the morning after/plan B pill to ensure egg implantation does not occur.
And that 1 woman who chose to not take the pill, she was neither very spiritual or church oriented. Yet most women I have encountered in this situation are so humiliated by the event, they become so terrified of being pregnant (social stigma?) that they gladly take the pill.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. –Aristotle
Social stigma?
fisk2521 Friday, February 6th at 11:48AM EST (link)What social stigma? We have thousands of women getting pregnant and having babies with no father every single day. We have movie stars and other celebrities celebrating their conception “without a man”. We also have the New York Times recently write a celebratory story about women (educated of course) who are single mothers by choice.
You’re living in the past. …. as many churches today are telling their parishioners to modernize their thinking and join the “church of what’s happening now” you have to get up to speed on ‘right and wrong’.
LDavis
The social stigma of rsexual assult crime. nt
phxg (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 12:18PM EST (link)It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. –Aristotle
Me neither....
fisk2521 Friday, February 20th at 6:46PM EST (link)I don’t betlieve right and wrong has an expiration date either. It seems, however, that’s what we are teaching our children….that today’s rules have been updated to fit the modern times. I was actually told that by a pastor in my church….. that today we are more knowledgeable, hence the way we look at right and wrong has been changed to fit the times.
LDavis
Me neither....
fisk2521 Friday, February 20th at 6:46PM EST (link)I don’t betlieve right and wrong has an expiration date either. It seems, however, that’s what we are teaching our children….that today’s rules have been updated to fit the modern times. I was actually told that by a pastor in my church….. that today we are more knowledgeable, hence the way we look at right and wrong has been changed to fit the times.
LDavis
Sorry fisk...but I don't believe the subject of right and wrong comes with an expiration date! nt
AceInTX (Diary) Saturday, February 7th at 12:52AM EST (link)Adoption (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 12:22PM EST (link)RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Absolutely...this is one thing that frosts my britches...
AceInTX (Diary) Saturday, February 7th at 12:56AM EST (link)Why is it that we have 10s of thousands of couples who can’t have children but disparately wish to be parents going to China, or South Korea, or to eastern Europe to adopt children when we are butchering 1.5 million children a day right down the street from those very childless couples…
If a person is raped…and doesn’t want to raise the child who was a product of Rape…then at least let the little guy or gal live and put them up for adoption!
For the sake of arguement I would make a distinction
AceInTX (Diary) Saturday, February 7th at 12:50AM EST (link)between the morning after pill and abortion per se. I have fundamental objections to the morning after pill but I can see the scientific argument here that preventing implantation does not equal abortion necessarily.
But that’s not what I’m talking about…My point is in dealing with the arguement that one is opposed to abortion because he/she believes an implanted and developing fetus is a person…and then that same person saying they support abortion when that implanted and developing person is the result of a rape or incestuous relationship. The circumstances of one’s conception doesn’t bear on ones intrinsic value as a person and isn’t intellectually justifiable to say it’s ok to kill what you acknowledge is a person just because he/she was conceived under painful circumstances!
Again…one who takes such a position to my mind is much worse than the person who says they are pro choice because they don’t believe a developing fetus is a person till it is out of the womb and breathing because they are willing to condone killing what they say they believe to be a living person!
Agree
JHancock (Diary) Saturday, February 7th at 11:01PM EST (link)55555555
problem with plan B
JHancock (Diary) Saturday, February 7th at 10:58PM EST (link)is that it could potentially cause misscarriage shortly after implantation, mot just nonimplantation like other BC. Although the medical dogma is that this is not the case, it has not been definitivly proven. Biologically speaking it’s not unreasonable to think Plan B could cause an abortion 24H or so after implantation.
rape issue
JHancock (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 1:07AM EST (link)at the very least, if a child concieved of rape is aborted, the father should be able to be charged with rape AND murder/manslaughter.
Heart-wrenching story
Langley Thursday, February 5th at 10:46PM EST (link)That is a story that will no doubt sicken even the most fervent NARAL supporter. And it also asks the question of the same people, “So, uh, what’s the difference between what happened and what was going to happen? What do you really support, anyway?”
I know this issue better than most, I am a direct result of it. I was born 2 months prematurely. I was small, I had some deficiencies, I spent quite a long time in the ICU unit, and my childhood was filled with surgical procedures.
But today, I’m alive writing this comment. No, I was not an “attempted” abortion or anything of the sort, but the notion that I was born at 7 months and at the same time it is perfectly lawful for a woman to abort her baby at 7 months just does not compute.
“Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more; you should not wish to do less” – Robert E. Lee
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Amen -nt-
Beaglescout (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 11:07PM EST (link).
“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”
It is perfectly lawful to abort at 9 months too - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 11:09PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
or at least it will be
JHancock (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 1:09AM EST (link)when FOCA does away with partial birth ban and trimester limits
To quote that radio guy, "Follow the money"
olsmithie (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 11:27PM EST (link)Abortion,now a thriving industry making 100s of millions of dollars per year, (I would have to check , I believe that figure is conservative.)
The same lobbying that goes with any other big money industry is present in the baby butchering business.
So we have the banshees squealing “It’s my right,” but the impetus is from all the bizarre people living large on the blood of the most innocent members of our society.
Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
Wonder why they put life first?
Regards
The DR in this story has numerous malpractice settlements
AceInTX (Diary) Thursday, February 5th at 11:40PM EST (link)on his record prior to becoming an abortionist which is common among abortion providers…most of the Dr.s willing to make a living doing the procedure do so because they have failed in private practice and there are no reporting regulations or oversight of abortion mills
Horrible.
Rod_Patrick (Diary) Friday, February 6th at 9:34AM EST (link)Obama should be happy. He should even say “Hats off” to the woman who took the matter of abortion in her own hands.
This is the main strategy of the libs and dems to cut the national budget (particularly for government-sponsored child health/insurance care.)
Really...?
fisk2521 Friday, February 6th at 11:51AM EST (link)“There is no God who condones taking the life of an innocent human being. ”
– President Barack Obama, at the National Prayer Breakfast this morning
LDavis