Earlier you all may remember the post about the Indian Navy destroying a pirate mother ship. At the news of the ship’s destruction, many people, including myself, expressed happiness at the destruction.
I read this article today, which changed my enthusiasm into disgust and sadness.
Pirate ‘Mother Ship’ or Thai Trawler
The article is short, but the part that upset me was the assertion that the ship was not in fact a mothership, but actually a fishing vessel which was under pirate attack, yet not fully under pirate control. Apparently, there were sixteen sailors on board, one of whom has been found alive, one confirmed dead, and fourteen still missing.
Moe had me rewrite this diary, because, I believe, he found it to be misleading and overly provocative. I’ll apologize for that, because in my effort to be alarmist, I foolishly detracted from my original point.
That point was: I believe that there’s a reason we have to follow legal and military procedure. Yes, sometimes doing things cautiously lets bad guys go. But sometimes being aggressive kills innocent people. I think there’s a reason police don’t storm hostage situations, and there’s a reason we don’t carpet bomb enemy nations.
I don’t know. Maybe it’s the lefty in me, but I think that we, as a society, are better served letting 100 people go free rather than killing one innocent. I hate state violence, because I see how it can be clumsily used. What do you think?
Steve Maley
Neil Stevens
Daniel Horowitz
Your link doesn't work.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 2:42PM EST (link)Unless you’re trying to be sarcastic; in which case, I don’t think that it’s very funny.
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OK, I just looked this up. READ THIS, leftylurker.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 2:49PM EST (link)Here’s the link. Contrary to leftylurker’s implicit assertion, the ship in question was in fact controlled by pirates; apparently there were still prisoners aboard the recently-captured ship when the Indian navy appeared on the scene. Contra the author of this attack piece on our allies, the Indian navy is not the guilty party; the original pirates were.
You just burned pretty much every bit of goodwill that you’ve accumulated on this site with this stunt. I suggest that you think three times before you write another diary here.
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There are robbers in a bank
leftylurker (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 2:53PM EST (link)and the police open fire through a closed door.
That’s what this was…sorry about the bad link, and sorry about the goodwill, but this is not acceptable.
Pirates are bad, evil, and should be stopped. But this is not the way, and this is not okay.
:ka-click: And now I see that you've changed the link without admitting error.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 2:55PM EST (link)Or a discussion of the actual facts in the matter.
If you want this to be the way you go out, that can be arranged.
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And that, folks, is the difference between the Left and the Right.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:00PM EST (link)The Left sees “piracy” and thinks “crime.”
The Right sees “piracy” and thinks “war.”
You’ll note that the Left’s version pretty much considers the pirates to be the victims here, and doesn’t particularly address the actual victims at all.
Moe Lane
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
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I did change the link
leftylurker (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:00PM EST (link)And it was in error.
Yes, Moe, you are right, there were pirates on the ship. But there were innocent sailors on it as well. In retrospect I could, and obviously should, have made that more clear.
I really did intend to put the right link in there, and I did want the post to be teaser-ish.
If you want to ban me for insisting that it was wrong to fire upon that ship, then go ahead.
I'm not talking about the pirates!
leftylurker (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:02PM EST (link)Hang them, shoot them, I don’t care.
But I do care about the innocents on the ship!
You read the article. That guy they picked up bobbing in the ocean didn’t deserve that.
Naah, you don't get off that easily.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:06PM EST (link)What you’re going to do instead is rewrite that diary – with a full admission that you’re rewriting it on the instructions of a site moderator – and you are going to replace it with something that presents the actual fact of the case. That includes losing the snark, by the way.
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Then add "reckless endangerment" and "abandonment at sea"...
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:08PM EST (link)…to the charges that are going to be made against any of the surviving pirates. They’re the ones responsible for the man’s fate, not the Indian Navy.
Don’t respond to this before you rewrite your diary as instructed, by the way.
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I'm happy to rewrite it
leftylurker (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:09PM EST (link)Because what I wanted was to discuss rule of law, not my misleading heading.
I’m sorry that I got this off on the wrong foot. Because this is an important issue.
Lefty,
Tanggor (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:15PM EST (link)I’m sure your angst is motivated by only the purest of motives (OH! The Humanity!), but the bottom line is that the only way to deal with pirates is to kill them.
Often. And without endless and timid equivocation.
They will only re-think their actions when it becomes clear that taking sailors hostage will not prevent us from boarding and killing them (or, as in this case, sinking the bloody ship).
Will some innocent sailors die? Yep.
My brother-in-law works as an engineer on these cargo ships. He’s a nice guy, and I don’t want him dead.
Best way to prevent my relative from getting dead is to make as many pirates dead as possible in the shortest time possible.
Remember: these guys are out for money, not jihad (yet). For them, dying is not the goal. Dying, in this instance, can function as a deterrent.
At least the Indian Navy had the stones to act properly.
Some things in life are ugly, but need to be done. It is the timid hand-wringers (like yourself, perhaps?) who weaken us all.
“It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.” – George Washington
He can't respond until he's rewritten; and because I'm a nice guy...
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:19PM EST (link)…I’m going to type the phrase “Hostis humani generis” out with the suggestion that he read up on it.
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sorry Moe;
Tanggor (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:25PM EST (link)got my dander up too quick.
You know I’m kinda opinionated about this topic…
(backs out, stage right, genuflecting and humble)
“It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.” – George Washington
So, I've changed it
leftylurker (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:30PM EST (link)Interesting article Moe, thank you.
Again though, I’m not mad about the pirates being killed, especially as it seems more or less historically legal to shoot pirates on sight.
OK, first things first: :kcilc-aK: I am officially believing...
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:48PM EST (link)…that your intent was as you say. Thus, I withdraw my harsh words.
More to the point, and this is the elementary problem with piracy: international law is actually pretty much on the Indian Navy’s side on this one. Pirates have always been seen as “outlaw” – so the Navy was correct to attack them on sight.
As to the hostages/captives on board… Tanggor has the right of it. Successful hostage-taking leads to nothing more than more hostages being taken; and the only way to stop it is to make sure that the people inclined to do it understand the limitations of that strategy. There are a lot of Somalis memorizing this flag right now, for exactly that reason.
Finally: the reason that people got exercised about the original (I’m guessing about Tanggor) is that it implied that the ultimate responsibility for the lives and deaths of the captives were the Indian Navy’s. It wasn’t. It was the responsibility of the pirates. It is the responsibility of the Indian Navy – and all navies – to dissuade Hostis humani generis from operating.
Moe Lane
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
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My (combined) wish list.
One other note: we can attack but not execute on sight.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:51PM EST (link)The rules have changed in admiralty law in that regard, from what I understand. Once they surrender, they become criminals.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
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My (combined) wish list.
Pirates, like terrorists
leftylurker (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:57PM EST (link)Have lost their right to be members of the human race. As such, I don’t think they have any human rights.
Once you’ve done certain things, you are not of my people, of my species, you are a monster, and I think that pirates fall into that category.
I don’t really blame the Indian Navy. I’m just sad for the people who died innocently.
I still disagree about the “breaking a few eggs to make an omelet” point though. I don’t think it’s okay to kill sailors to get at pirates. I don’t think we should negotiate with terrorists, but there has to be another way.
I really liked the stealth pirate killer idea a la “Master and Commander” that someone had last thread.
Moe...
Attack Mode (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 3:59PM EST (link)The first attack should be forceful enough that no one will be left to surrender…that way admiralty law won’t be infringed….;^)
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
Do you know how many innocents were killed in WWII?
JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 4:01PM EST (link)You do realize that if we adopt a practice of zero tolerance with respect to collateral damage, that we might as well just surrendor?
We, unlike our enemies, avoid hurting innocents. But we cannot avoid hurting innocents at all costs.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
at the risk
Tanggor (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 4:06PM EST (link)that someone else said it besides me, I’ll take a bow for reviving the “nautical phasimid” idea on that other thread (still waiting for it to happen though).
“It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.” – George Washington
but to return to issue
Tanggor (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 4:07PM EST (link)(returns to edge of stage, cautiously peeking out from the curtains…)
OK, Lefty-ness, interesting notion. Perhaps I was a bit pointed and personal in my previous post – perhaps not. This one hits home for me, as my wife and I worry quite a lot about the fate of her brother on his voyages.
Ultimately, you seem concerned with the loss of innocent life. Well and good. Nobody likes to take innocent life (I’m talking about normal folks here, not the scum for whom life taking is recreation).
And I concur that a too casual use of State force in certain circumstances might just be something we want to avoid, in general.
But I ask you then – where is the line? At what point to we accept risk to the innocent to stop and deter deadly and unrepentant bad guys?
Is it numerical? 1 to 5 hostages, go in, 10 – 20 hostages, negotiate and pay? Or just pay regardless, be it 1 life or 100?
I don’t mean to minimize the value of a life, but lives are often shed in pursuit of what are often considered higher aims. When in the military, I was willing to shed my life for the good of my country. I accepted and expected that my officers would spend me wisely (and resolved to bite and kick and gouge the enemy to survive anyway).
Shall we renounce a military and pander to our enemies to avoid the loss of soldiers?
Where does it end?
This piracy must be stopped. Asking nicely doesn’t seem to be working. And paying is only making it worse.
So what’s your solution? (besides the “nautical phasmid” one already mentioned)
“It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.” – George Washington
Another reason to prosecute the pirates
Uma Richie (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 4:10PM EST (link)to the full extent of what is legal at sea is that they put innocent mariners at risk. The Gulf of Aden is full of rickety dhows, some with unreliable engines. I can’t cite the germane laws, but as I understand it, if a ship/boat signals distress, any passing ship is supposed to render aid.
With the threat of pirates in the area, merchant ships may be disinclined to offer help for fear of being taken over by pirates posing as a crew of a distressed vessel. A perfectly innocent ship and crew stranded without a working engine and without a good supply of fresh water could be lost at sea that way.
hmmm
Tanggor (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 4:20PM EST (link)that’s grim.
Never thought of that one.
“It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.” – George Washington
It's a really hard issue
leftylurker (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 5:06PM EST (link)I really don’t like the idea of paying, and I hate the idea of killing civilians. So, I’m not really sure.
How about this one?
Would it be prohibitive to blockade Somalia? To not let any non-military escorted vessels into their seas? Kind of a starve them out plan? Or, how about requiring all ships that sail in pirate infested waters to possess protection? I remember an article about cruise ships that used sub-sonic sound weapons to cripple pirates.
As to your greater point, about risking innocents to stop the wicked, I don’t know. I do know that I’m not comfortable with there being a numerical cutoff…I think that one innocent life is the same as fifty. That’s not an economics based stance, I know, but I think it’s the right one. Paying isn’t a solution either, because it just encourages them.
Maybe there could be a policy of, once negotiations (without payment) fail, of saying “we’re coming, and if you kill the hostages, it’s over for you as well.” If they kill the hostages, then it’s them not us that has done the act…i don’t know..that seems inadequate too…
You obviously have never lived in a non-western country
JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 7:14PM EST (link)You want to put a straight-jacket on all decent governments so only pirates, thugs, and pirate-thug-states will be using force of arms.
Go to Russia and start and anti Putin protest.
My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.
STOP THE MADNESS!
A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!
Moe, do you have children...
itsonlywords (Diary) Tuesday, November 25th at 7:24PM EST (link)And if so, are they exceptionally well-behaved?
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audientor ito. ~Virgil
Do not give in to evil, but proceed evermore boldly against it.