Liberal Massachusetts Fighting for States’ Rights


On Wednesday Massachusetts, home to some of the most liberal politicians, sued the U.S. government for infringing on its sovereign authority.

“We’re taking this action today because, first, we believe that [the Defense of Marriage Act] directly interferes with Massachusetts’ long-standing sovereign authority to define and regulate the marital status of its residents,” Attorney General Martha Coakley

Their lawsuit argues that Congress overstepped its authority and undermined the state’s right to define marital status which has always been left up to states to decide for themselves. Of course this is a long standing debate but this lawsuit could have serious implications depending on how it turns out.

Should the Federal Government be allowed to usurp States’ rights on the matter of same sex marriage?



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37 Comments Leave a comment

Actually, I think the states ought to get out of the Marriage game, too.

randy streu (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 9:22PM EST (link)

I say they, in fact, do NOT have the “right” to define and regulate the marital status of its citizens.

But, since I’m just a dreamer, sure. Let MASS have it their own way. If it can’t revert back to the people with whom it belongs, at least let’s keep it as local as possible.

Totally Disagree (nt)

IJB Wednesday, July 8th at 11:22PM EST (link)

Gosh, I Can't See What You're Up To...

IJB Wednesday, July 8th at 11:24PM EST (link)

Nope.
No idea.
Haven’t a clue.

Oops - *Not* A Reply To Randy

IJB Wednesday, July 8th at 11:25PM EST (link)

This was supposed to be in response to the diarist.

 
 
 

The DOMA ffirms states rights by prohibiting federal courts

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 9:25PM EST (link)

from demanding that one state recognize the marriages of another.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Interesting point

keeper (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 9:30PM EST (link)

but their lawsuit is specifically challenging Section 3. which is on the definition of marriage.

It is no violation of any state right I am aware of for the federal government

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 9:34PM EST (link)

restrict the application of its policies to marriages meeting its preferred definition. No state is prohibited from defining marriage as it sees fit by sec 3.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Their argument

keeper (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 9:44PM EST (link)

I think will be that the U.S. government is denying rights to its citizens based on DOMA

They see rights under rocks - nt

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 9:52PM EST (link)

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Don't forget

keeper (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 10:00PM EST (link)

the 10th amendment:

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

Since the Constitution makes no mention of marriage, they may have a good case.

The DOMA affirms the states' rights under the 10th not to be coerced

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:03PM EST (link)

into accepting the definition of other states and sets policy regarding federal employee benefits. That the word marriage is not in the Constitution is quite a lame argument for the proposition “they” propose.

btw, R U 1 of they?

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Full faith and credit

SteveLA (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:05PM EST (link)

Mike,

Won’t the issue of Federal Gay marriage and the Constitution come down the the Full Faith and Credit provisions of the Constitution ?

Will a valid “marriage” in one state be recognized in another? My understanding of the Federal DOMA law is that as long as it is in force the issue is side stepped.

______________________________________

Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests

There is an argument that DOMA may violate the FF&C clause

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:29PM EST (link)

based on Lawrence v Texas and some other cases but I think that argument is weak especially given that DOMA prevents coercion of one state by another via federal courts and given the precise language of Art IV sec 1 and the explicit power of Congress to prescribe the “effect” of such laws.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Personally, I Think If DOMA Is Thrown Out By The Courts...

IJB Wednesday, July 8th at 11:33PM EST (link)

…It will quite literally trigger the dissolution of this union.

There is *no* way that places like Utah and Texas should be forced to take on, let along recognize, the insane policies of places like MA & VT. They’ll simply ‘opt out’ instead of submitting to this kind of tyranny.

The day DOMA is struck down in the courts, is the day the clock starts ticking on The United States of America.

And I don’t think I’m kidding…

 

555 GC, I should always let you answer...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:33PM EST (link)

because in my rambling below I was trying to state the weakness of the argument. My knowledge of law is relegated to DoD Engineering processes, but I see a manipulation of FF&C to force states into accepting other states experiments.

thx 'ME. I would say that I imagine there is some way in which DOMA

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:41PM EST (link)

under a specific factual situation could violate the FF&C but I can’t think of one

UNLESS

Justice Kennedy wants to join the 4 libs and re-write the Constitution.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

 
 
 

Steve the answer is No or is it Yes?...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:31PM EST (link)

we have a problem here, the argument is going circular, one state says I accept gay marriage and another say I reject it, so the state that accepts it is given standing over the state that rejects it? I am not following how you can not swing this argument the other way. The argument can be made that the full faith and credit clause could be used as a suicide pact for states that reject the policies and regulations of other states. Listen this whole suit, IMO will be thrown into the garbage either by the lower courts, if it doesn’t we are looking at a huge train wreck for states rights.

By DOMA, the federal government has determined what marriage is, it is defined; therefore, for the purposes of full faith and credit to apply marriage must be between a man and woman, otherwise default to a intrastate policy. If a state wants to accept it, fine, but a state that rejects it does not have to accept the other states policy. I do not see this as a law or act issue for the states. This full faith and credit clause has caused many problems due to the infinite interpretations and loose argument made by certain people to make it justify their case. We keep going down this road, and all you have left is a Central Government, why have states?

Lastly, if this is how the left and the gay marriage supporters want to take this cause, then I am for sinking the marriage ship so we do not have to deal with the future incarnations of marriage. I will vote for that before I we continue to push definitions and cause cultural strife for the purpose of pleasing 2% of the population.

I'd Rather Sink The Union, Than Sink Marriage (nt)

IJB Wednesday, July 8th at 11:35PM EST (link)

I got nothing

SteveLA (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:37PM EST (link)

Don’treadonme

I got nothing, I’m just predicting where the fight is going to go.

I’m all for letting each state deciding that marriage means to the people of that state, but my understanding of the full faith and credit provisions of the US Constitution is going to make that very hard to do. DOMA right now keeps that conflict from being taken to the Supreme Court.

Mike or one of the lawyer types can probably do a better job of explaining the law and courts. My issue is how to keep the will of the people in force, DOMA or no, and not have another will of the people issue, in something like 30 states, be overturned by Gods in Black robes.

______________________________________

Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests

I know Steve...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:42PM EST (link)

I did not mean to make it personal, sorry about my words coming off that way, it tends to come off edgy sometimes, sorry.

I was just trying to give you a non-lawyers take on the manner from what I know, and how in my line of work I watch companies use the law to twist things to support their cause.

 
 

Loving v. Virginia

keeper (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 12:04AM EST (link)

Arguably not the same thing as same sex marriage but it did have the effect of imposing interracial marriage on states that did not want it. It caused “cultural strife” to say the least but the Nation survived.

Loving did what the 14th Amendment demanded

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 12:15AM EST (link)

And it affirmed the 5000 year institution most responsible for civilizing man, i.e. marriage as the basic unit to turn wild animals into responsible citizens by tying child bearing/rearing to a committed relationship.

Re-defining that institution based on feelings essentially renders the institution a farce subject to scoffing ridicule by the yutes. It divorces marriage from its civilizing function and furthers the substitution of Uncle Sam for fathers.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

So why not

keeper (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 12:39AM EST (link)

an amendment outlawing divorce? Or making it illegal for sterile people to marry?

C’mon marriage as a western institution has its roots in business agreements between royalty and powerful families.

“Re-defining that institution based on feelings essentially renders the institution a farce”

Seriously? You mean feelings like love? You get married to have babies not because you love someone?

Silly argument.

14th amendment re race vs. sex discrimination

gensec (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 1:59AM EST (link)

an amendment outlawing divorce? Or making it illegal for sterile people to marry?

The difference is that your amendments are hypothetical, while the 14th Amendment is the law.

Consistent with the amendment’s history, the Supreme Court has consistently held that laws can make make distinctions on the basis of sex, where such distinctions based on race or religion would be clearly unconstitutional.

Prohibiting a white man from marrying a black woman, when a black man is allowed to do so, is racial discrimination against white men, a legal distinction between races prohibited by the 14th Amendment.

Similarly, prohibiting a woman from marrying a woman, when a man is allowed to do so, is sex discrimination against women. The Constitutional difference is that the 14th Amendment allows some discrimination on the basis of sex where there is some plausibly arguable basis for the legal distinction. It doesn’t require that the Court agree with the prudential judgment supporting the law, only that it have some relation to the biological differences between the sexes, e.g. reproduction.

If the Equal Rights [between sexes] Amendment had been ratified, then it would be a whole different story and the sex discrimination against same sex marriage would be unconstitutional; but it was not ratified.

Full faith and credit for some state’s marriage between two women or two men is only relevant in another jurisdiction, if that jurisdiction has a legal institution that includes such contractual relationships in its definition. Because most states have no such legal institution, they have nothing where granting "full faith and credit" to same sex marriages in other states would have any relevance.

The federal government’s definition of marriage between one man and one woman only applies where it dishes out costs or benefits (e.g. higher taxes if married for couples where both earn good incomes; lower taxes if married for couples where one has low earnings). That does nothing to prevent a state from imposing costs or benefits on same sex couples it recognizes as married, so Massachusetts’ states rights argument is groundless unless its "sovereignty" includes overriding the federal government’s own right to define marriage for purposes of federal law.

Legal recognition of same sex marriage is inevitable, as opponents die of old age and supporters reach voting age. Still there’s no constitutional requirement that the federal government recognize same sex marriage before there’s majority support for it. When it’s enacted, it should be through democratic self government, not by judicial literary license.

 

you are not a serious person - Hey, can someone help GC - Is keeper a "troll"? - keeps making

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 7:34AM EST (link)

same argument but never answers counter argument

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Yes he / she is GC

Jack_Savage (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 8:08AM EST (link)

SmearBot as far as Palin goes, time sucker in any other argument. TROLL.

thank you - my work here is done - nt

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 9:58AM EST (link)

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

 
 

I'm only pointing

keeper (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 12:00PM EST (link)

out that the reasons you gave for marriage as an institution, procreation/family cohesion are no longer the only reason people get married and arguably never were. And if procreation/family cohesion are the only goals for marriage than divorce or fertility should be added into the debate but that would be silly. If you want to debate that we can but you’d loose.

With Loving v. Virginia I wasn’t using that as an example of the 14th being applied to the same sex debate. Re-read the posts and who I was replying to, DONTREADONME commented on forcing the rest of the states to go along with something that only 2% wanted. I gave the example of Loving v. Virginia as a case that essentially did that and yet the Nation survived when it had to force other states into allowing interracial marriages even though a bunch of them did not want it.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

But Section 3. of DOMA

keeper (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:17PM EST (link)

defines marriage which since not mentioned and therefor not delegated/prohibited by the Constitution under the 10th should then be a States’ prerogative to define. That’s their main argument. I see what you are saying but DOMA can not trump the full faith and credit clause in the Constitution.

That's where the challenge will be

SteveLA (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:23PM EST (link)

keeper

That’s sort of my point.

The challenge by Mass is a way of challenging DOMA, if DOMA is struck down, then the issue becomes one of the Full Faith and Credit provisions.

Should the people of say Utah be required to recognize as valid gay marriage license issued in Mass, not matter how the citizens feel about the issue.

Out here in CA, we passed Prop 8 which was a State Constitutional amendment. Gay supporters are trying to get it into Federal Court under some silly notion of a Constitutional right for anyone to marry, with DOMA legislation sitting out there saying no.

This issue will eventually end up in the US Supreme Court, and it’s hard to tell how it will be decided.

______________________________________

Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests

I agree

keeper (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 11:40PM EST (link)

I think that’s why the Mass. suit will be interesting to follow. Section 3. of DOMA seems like the weak link in the chain of legalities.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Another non-issue, back to...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 9:50PM EST (link)

another non-issue, back to the drawing board. Ho-hum, frivilous. Nice stunt MA, we have come to expect this from kissing cousins.

Kowalski, BTW...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 9:52PM EST (link)

that comment actually means I read your diary and the comments, be happy blood shot out of my eyes. Dems, love to generate daggers from us conservatives.

 

Why do you think

keeper (Diary) Wednesday, July 8th at 10:57PM EST (link)

it is a non-issue? It potentially could mean an end to DOMA and any attempt at a Constitutional amendment. Or it could expand the powers of the Federal government to interfere with state sovereignty.

 
 

Why don't *you* tell us what *you* think?

Bill S (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 8:11AM EST (link)

That’s what the diaries are for – your opinion. An approach such as the one you’ve attempted here are frowned upon.

“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins

I see your point

keeper (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 11:54PM EST (link)

My opinion is that this is a lawsuit that should be paid close attention to. Some question how far it will actually get but keep in mind that it will be the DOJ as headed by Obama appointee Eric Holder, that will be defending the DOMA in the suit. So perhaps it has a better than average chance of being overturned.

 
 

From what I understand their whole arguement is,

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Thursday, July 9th at 9:22AM EST (link)

but, but, homosexuals aren’t allowed access to the federal benefits that heterosexuals have access too, whine, whine. So, let’s just get rid of the federal benefits like social security, tax credits, welfare, etc and let the states decide the marriage issue, problem solved.

Funny how they can use the federal government to reach into other peoples lives and tell them how they ought to live, but absolutely despise it when it happens to them.