During the Tuesday night press conference, Politico’s Mike Allen and the president had this exchange:
Allen: Are you reconsidering your plan to cut the interest-rate deduction for mortgages and for charities? And do you regret having proposed that in the first place?
President Obama: No, I think it’s — I think it’s the right thing to do.
Where we’ve got to make some difficult choices — here’s what we did with respect to tax policy. What we said was that over the last decade, the average worker, the average family have seen their wages and incomes flat. Even at times where supposedly we were in the middle of an economic boom, as a practical matter their incomes didn’t go up. And so (what/well ?) we said — let’s give them a tax cut. Let’s give them some relief, some help — 95 percent of American families.
Now, for the top 5 percent, they’re the ones who typically saw huge gains in their income. I — I fall in that category. And what we’ve said is, for those folks, let’s not renew the Bush tax cuts. So let’s go back to the rates that existed back in — during the Clinton era, when wealthy people were still wealthy and doing just fine. And let’s look at the level at which people can itemize their deductions.
And what we’ve said is let’s go back to the rate that existed under Ronald Reagan.
People are still going to be able to make charitable contributions. It just means if you give $100 and you’re in this tax bracket, at a certain point, instead of being able to write off 36 (percent) or 39 percent, you’re writing off 28 percent. Now, if it’s really a charitable contribution, I’m assuming that that shouldn’t be the determining factor as to whether you’re giving that hundred dollars to the homeless shelter down the street.
And so this provision would effect about 1 percent of the American people. They would still get deductions. It’s just that they wouldn’t be able to write off 39 percent. In that sense, what it would do is it would equalize. When I give $100, I get the same amount of deduction as when some — a bus driver who’s making $50,000 a year or $40,000 a year gives that same hundred dollars. Right now, he gets 28 percent — he gets to write off 28 percent, I get to write off 39 percent. I don’t think that’s fair.
So I think this was a good idea. I think it is a realistic way for us to raise some revenue from people who benefit ted enormously over the last several years. It’s not going to cripple them.
They’ll still be well-to-do. And, you know, ultimately if we’re going to tackle the serious problems that we’ve got, then in some cases those who are more fortunate are going to have to pay a little bit more.
Allen: It’s not the well-to-do people; it’s the charities. Given what you’ve just said…
President Obama: Yeah.
Allen: …are you confident that charities are wrong when they contend that this would discourage giving?
President Obama: Yes. I am. I mean, if you look at the evidence — there’s very little evidence that this has a significant impact on charitable giving.
I’ll tell you what has a significant impact on charitable giving is a financial crisis and an economy that’s contracting. And so the most important thing that I can do for charitable giving is to fix the economy, to get banks lending again, to get businesses opening their doors again, to get people back to work again. Then I think charities will do just fine.
Columnist Paul Greenberg:
The president said his plan to reduce tax exemptions for charitable giving will have no effect on the donations that nonprofits depend on for their good works. Those who run philanthropies tend to have a different opinion. They also tend to know their business.
It’s not rocket science. If you have to give the government more of your money for taxes, then you will have less money to give to charity. How many people would prefer to give their money to charity than give it to the government?
Forget percentages for a moment and think in terms of dollars. Those taxpayers who are stuck in the higher tax brackets are precisely the ones who give the most to charity, and Obama is punishing them for it with his lower deductions for charitable donations. Does this seem counterproductive to you? Even moderates are balking at Obama’s proposal.
Moreover, the president’s numbers do not add up. Dave Switzer says the government will only take in one-third of what the Obama administration claims:
Office of Management and Budget Director Peter Orszag actually said this yesterday: ”Contained in the recovery act, there’s $100 million to support nonprofits and charities as we get through this period of economic difficulty,” he said. $100 million. That’s what they’ll get to compensate them for any reduction in private charitable contributions.
Is he serious? He’s actually saying that people who currently contribute $83 billion to charity annually would not reduce their charitable contributions by more than $100 million? That would be a .12% decrease. Do you think that wealthy people will cut their contributions by only .12% when their tax break is cut by 20%? For these people, the price of charitable contributions used to be $.65 per dollar of service purchased and now it’s going to rise to $.72 per dollar of service purchased, which is a 10.2% increase in the price of contributing to charity (using the midpoint formula). For you economics students, that’s a price elasticity of demand of -.012. NOTHING is that inelastic, not even crack cocaine. The only word I can think of for this: absurd.
So here are the facts. Obama won’t be able to collect all of this revenue through this tax change — he’ll get about a third of it if he’s lucky and charitable contributions by wealthy people are unaffected, but contributions will probably drop and he’ll get even less than that. Anybody looking at the magnitude of charitable contributions vs. the amount the Obama budget would give to charities would have to conclude that charities will be worse off. In a recession, when more people are losing their jobs and cutting back on spending, and more people can actually benefit from food banks and other charitable services, the administration proposes this? I just don’t understand it…
It is indeed difficult for anyone except a statist to understand. Instead of encouraging voluntary philanthropy, especially from those who can most afford to give (the evil rich), Obama and other statists want you to just pay more taxes and let the government take care of helping those in need. The difference, of course, is that you and government may not agree on which organization should disperse the funds. While you might prefer that your money go to, say, the Salvation Army, Obama’s government would be more likely to trust ACORN with the money.
So if you want to retain the freedom to choose how your charitable giving is spent, Obama wants you to pay a higher penalty for that liberty by cutting the deduction you can take for it. If Obama’s way is unacceptable to you, please share your opinion with your representatives in Washington.
- JP
Steve Maley
KnightsofMalta
I actually support this in theory.
Steven Willis (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 10:59AM EST (link)I have not seen the proposed amendments to the Internal Revenue Code, so I cannot comment on the specifics. But, let me offer a few points:
1. Most taxpayers do not itemize deductions and thus receive no tax subsidy for charitable giving.
2. Most charitable donations go to religious organizations and to groups which do good: they feed, clothe or shelter people, or they provide an important community service, such as the Boy Scouts. These contributions tend to be quite inelastic. For example, my contributions to my Church and to my Boy Scout troop are not motivated in the slightest by the tax consequences. This tends to be true – to a large degree – of the masses who give relatively small amounts to very good charities.
3. The wealthy – those whom the proposal will affect – already suffer from a variety of limitations on charitable giving, including phase-outs of itemized deductions. Hence, I am unsure how much this proposal will actually accomplish. I’ll comment more when I see the bill.
4. The wealthy tend to give to the arts, to universities, and to large endowments such as the Ford Foundation. These contributions tend to be very elastic: they will drop proportionately with the reduction in tax benefits. In my opinion, good riddance.
Section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code is and always has been a fraud. Politicians tell us the deduction allows “the people” to allocate some of their own tax dollars. But, in reality, it only benefits those who itemize and who are in significant tax brackets. Those people are owner’s of homes with substantial mortgage loan interest obligations and substantial property taxes, or residents of states with substantial income taxes (often in the Northeast). Most people do not benefit from section 170 at all. Most of the benefit (the elastic part that actually shows up on a return) goes to organizations that the great majority do not particularly care to help (left-wing Foundations, elitist Universities, and fancy art museums that have lavish exclusive parties to thank their elitist donors).
If we get rid of section 170, we can also get rid of all the Private Foundation rules. We thereby reduce a significant part of the Internal Revenue Code. We will have little impact on charities that really do help people and we will begin to starve those which actually create public harm (in my opinion of good versus bad). I’ve taught the Tax Law of Charities for 28 years and have co-authored a book on the subject. But, I can teach something else.
I suspect, Obama and friends will eventually catch on to the notion that their plan actually hurts their agenda and they will back off from it. Perhaps, I should just be quiet.
“Let it be said, I fought the good fight, I finished the race, I kept the faith.”
Paul, Second Timothy 4:7, The New Covenant.
Steve Willis
Professor of Law
University of Florida College of Law
I always welcome challenges to conventional wisdom, Steve
civil truth (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:46AM EST (link)What I really think is behind your comment, Steve, is the conservative view that abhores using the tax code for social engineering.
Or in this case, using the tax code to favor certain charitable entities that 1) otherwise would not survive if they did not receive privileged tax treatment from the government; and 2) more often than not have a leftist agenda; and 3) in time become just another interest group lobbying government for continued favors rather than trying to make it on their own merits (i.e. charities transformed into political prostitutes – or more accurately, political johns).
That is, from a conservative viewpoint, we’d all be better off if we dismantled this convoluted tax system of deductions, including charitable deductions, and had a flatter tax system. And we should chuck the estate tax too, which is the engine behind so much of the charitable scams you’ve alluded to above).
Thank your for your insights. Am I interpreting the bigger picture correctly?
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Yes
Steven Willis (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 2:37PM EST (link)Amen. And thanks for the translation.
“Let it be said, I fought the good fight, I finished the race, I kept the faith.”
Paul, Second Timothy 4:7, The New Covenant.
Steve Willis
Professor of Law
University of Florida College of Law
55555 nt
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:48PM EST (link)Good post, Josh.
Mr_Ed (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:00AM EST (link)I was wondering when someone would get around to this part of Obama’s presser. I was thinking about writing my own blog but just haven’t had the time.
In addition, I don’t think his math adds up either, given his example of the deduction percentage.
Statist is the right description of the man and his philosophy.
Mr. Ed
Straight from the Horse’s Mouth
This amounts to tax on charities & churches - it is immoral and insane.
Steve Maley (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:27AM EST (link)It’s ludicrous to think that taxes don’t play into charitable giving decisions for the vast majority of folks that this will affect.
Forget the mega-rich. For your average millionaire next door, the amount he’s willing to give is based on what he’s left with after tax. He’s going to adjust his giving to end up in the same place, anyway; it’s the charity that bears this tax.
A charitable donation is voluntary 100% tax, in effect, to an entity that has already been deemed to perform a socially beneficial function.
It’s impossible to impose “fairness” (the Dems’ version, anyway) on the system because 1) the “rich” make the vast majority of charitable donations, and B)
The blogger formerly known as ‘Vladimir’.
oops.
Steve Maley (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:28AM EST (link)…B) THE “RICH” PAY ALL THE F’ING TAXES, ANYWAY!
The blogger formerly known as ‘Vladimir’.
I tend to agree with you
Danielle Davis (ocleverone) (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 6:37PM EST (link)I also believe that this is yet another way to neutralize religion.
The voice in the local communities that the churches had before the creation of 501(c) was significantly greater than now. Think real life “Changeling”.
501(c)s effectively stopped political intervention of churches, thus limiting the influence.
I view this latest move as just another way that this administration is providing a frontal attack on churches and religion.
To me, “consensus” seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects … There are still people in my party who believe in “consensus” politics. I regard them as Quislings, as traitors … I mean it. — Margaret Thatcher
Speaking strictly for myself and my wife.....
USNJIMRET (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:42PM EST (link)We have already reduced charitable giving, and we never saw any tax benefit from it.
We gave what we could to support good causes.
However, and I believe this will apply to many who won’t be helped or harmed by a change in the tax code, if current plans for government forced increases in the cost of living come to pass, we will have less money after tax to spend on anything.
Taking care of ourselves if the first priority.
If we have less for that 1st function, then any other choices will, obviously, be less.
Which will be unfortunate from our point of view, potentially devastating for others. (Assuming this holds true for the majority of “do the right thing” charitable givers.)
good point
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:53PM EST (link)If energy costs go up, that will also stop gifts from many people.
The charities,churches and the hardworking taxpayers are the losers on obama plan.
bobojake (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:38PM EST (link)obamas craps and shove carbon tax will double the cost of food, double the cost of gasoline, double the cost of electricy.
It will also double the loss of contributions to charities and church.
I believe this is what obama objective is to have people beg from the government so he can be their master.
Why does obama reid,schuuuuummmmmmmmmmmer, and peloski hate American middle class hardworking taxpayers?
Call and email your Senators and Congressman every day this next 2 weeks ask them to shove obama budget where the sun don’t shine.
this rape of the hardworking middle class taxpayers.
Why does reid,schuuuuummmmmmmmmmmer, obama and peloski hate American middle class hardworking taxpayers.
Stop these Madmen today.
Tell your Senators and Congressman to shove obama budget where the sun don’t shine.
I think also that this is a ploy to have the government take over charities,
TNJim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 7:33PM EST (link)the ones they pick and choose, of course. The rest, churches scouting, others? Sorry about you. And when the government steps in to help, charities will have to follow the guidelines that will inevitably be imposed on what they can do and how they operate.
Just ask AIG, Citicorp, anyone else that has received government interference, er, help so far.
Bush started that with charities already. nt
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 8:43PM EST (link)Here too...
ddstrain (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 6:21PM EST (link)our charitable contributions have ended. I am in the segment of society that Obama and the socialists have targetted. With the direction the Left is taking the country, I need to keep my money to take care of my family.
A potential political tactic
kewgardens Saturday, March 28th at 12:57PM EST (link)As per Steven’s post above, the GOP could cause some political mischief by supporting the provision but then proposing a supplemental provision that allowed full deductions for contributions to religious organizations and organizations dedicated to aiding the poor.
55555555
Steven Willis (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 2:38PM EST (link)nt
“Let it be said, I fought the good fight, I finished the race, I kept the faith.”
Paul, Second Timothy 4:7, The New Covenant.
Steve Willis
Professor of Law
University of Florida College of Law
Two Comments
ATLconservative Sunday, March 29th at 2:03PM EST (link)1) I don’t believe I subscribe to the notion that charitable giving will necessarily go down – at least for churches and other religious institutions. Think about it this way: why would I pay $1000 to get back $300? That’s not a wise decision. I give because I want to and can give.
2) If it’s unfair for “the rich” to be able to write-off a higher percentage, then how about we make ALL tax-related percentages the same between the rich and “the poor”? How does that float your boat there, President Obama?
Who ever asked this weasel...
larryp Saturday, March 28th at 2:17PM EST (link)to do any of this butting-in to charitable giving anyway. He and his wife are cheapos when it comes to donating. What the Os want is to create the National socialist Charity League where the govt contributes for you to their chosen charities: global-baloney, snuffing just-born kids, crack-pot community schemes, violent youth Obama bots…
How about we push for a flat tax period???
izoneguy (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 2:21PM EST (link)I just had the pleasure of paying my accountant $500 to do my personal income taxes. I also spend about $2500 per year with her to do my corporate taxes. Money well spent. I have been using this accountant for over 20 years and she is top-notch. She gave me an earful this year. As most of her clients are small business she is saying everyone is up in arms over Obama’s policies. The crap will hit the fan sooner than everyone thinks.
My wife and I give what we can to charities & our church and really don’t think about the tax implications. Sure it might help us a little but the really really rich will cut back on giving and that is what will hurt the charities. Obama does not want the wealthy to decide how to spend their own money. Obama feels it is time for the wealthy to pay up. Obama is waging a war against business and it is one he will lose and pay a heavy price for.
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
5!
IJB Saturday, March 28th at 3:33PM EST (link)But only if the flat (income) tax applies to every able-bodied citizen, and I mean *every one*. (If that means some people send their welfare or SS checks back to the feds in the form of income taxes, than so be it.)
We must get away from any system in which some pay fed. taxes, and others don’t.
Either everyone pays taxes, or no one does. No ‘in between’.
And, at the same time it passes, it should also restrict the feds to levying income taxes *only*, and no other kind of taxes – I don’t ever want to see the fed levying any kind of sales taxes (or VATs, etc.) or, God forbid! property taxes.
If *everyone* paid income taxes
mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 5:05PM EST (link)there’d be no Democrats.
Quote of the day!
Josh Painter (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 6:31PM EST (link)- JP
“An armed society is a polite society” – Robert A. Heinlein, “Beyond This Horizon” (1942)
Actually, I would like see sufferage eliminated for that don't pay taxes
Dave_in_Fla (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 7:57PM EST (link)If you have no skin in the game, you don’t get to vote. Kind of an economic version of Heinlein’s Starship Troopers.
“If they were merely incompetent, then at least SOME of their actions would have been to the benefit of the country.” – Joe McCarthy
He's not worried about the "wealthy..."
fmaidment (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 7:58PM EST (link)He’s worried about people with high incomes. Two different concepts.
Someone who is “wealthy” has wealth. They already have great resources. Resources that are generally not taxed.
People with high incomes may be wealthy, but do not have to be. High income taxes prevent those who are not yet wealthy from becoming wealthy.
In other words, toss out the American Dream, welcome to serfdom…
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“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
– - Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791