It was not long ago when a Catholic and Protestant would not marry, in many cases this is still true. and let’s not even get into the black white thng. Having said all this, I am still intrigued by those non religious Jews that hold strong to their Jewish heritage. I am even aware many Jews in Israel are secular. I just find the subject to be interesting. I as a Protestant support Israel not for Biblical reasons, but because the nation is free and an ally. there are some that think Revelation teaches Israel must be defended, I respect that view, but that is not why I would gladly stand in a trench with the IDF against agents of intolerance and darkness.

And I deffinitely agree with the last paragraph – though it is concievably possible that the practice of those with faith moves from the religious to the (for lackof a better word) communal over time.

I don’t mean to replace religion with anthropology here, just try to be truer to the history of Jews – in some ways this is similar to the debate that went on (among other generations) in the middle ages between followers of Rambam (maimonides) and Ramban (nachmanides) – the forer took a more logical and legalistic perpsective towards practice of halacha and the latter saw it more in spiritual terms (kabbalistic in the non-Modonna way). This debate is within the Halachik (orthodox) world as mucha s outside it.

it may not be worth going into it at this point, but we could at a later date, talk about what self idendity means, how we group ourselves and what that means to our existence. I have a hurt back right now and plan on calling it a night, so this is probably not the place to bring it up. Before I ad this, I do not deny anyone who calls himself a Jew, is a Jew, it is not my place and not in my ability.

one thing thing that has always interested me is race, ethnicity, etc. If you look at various government and national entities, they bace race on different measures. If I remember correctly, the UN has differentiated some 5 races, Jewish is not one, nor is Hispanic.

I have always found the idea of a Hispanic “race” to be an interesting study. Does not the most left wing hispanic organization call themselves “la Raza”? but how could their be an hispanic race? What would this race be based on? It seems many believe there is a race based on the fact that a lot of people speak Spanish.

Many in the Americas call themselves Latino. I guess that means latin American, the people who were conquered and then assimilitated by the Spanish. Others say the proper term is “hispanic”, which literally means “of Spain? The irony is no one in Spain would call themselves Hispanic in that sense, they are just Spanish. In fact many anglos call hispanics “Spanish” but that makes no sense, it is like calling anglo-Americans English, because of their language.

I may have bit off more than I can chew tonight, but my point is there is no such thing as a spanish/hispanic/latino race if we mean race as a people with very similar physical characteristics not found in others. The reason for this, and this applys to Jews as well, is that the impact of man, his explorations, his wars, have changed peoples, we are not static.

Anyone should know those of Spain are Caucaision, although some are darker as a result of Moorish influence, but they are still europeans, and considered white. Then you have the man whites of Argentinia, Chile, and newscasters/actors all over latin America. Then you have Mexicans who as a whole look similar but there are those extremely dark and those with natural blond hair and blue eyes. You also have the many blacks of Cuba, Dominion Republica, Venezuela, Brazil etc. Are they hispanics or black? they can trace their roots to Africa.

Ok, I think I went off on a tanget here, but my point is that race is a man made term, and there are differences between who you ask what is a race, ethnicity, or whatever. We know many Jews in Israel look not much different than the Palestinians they fight. We also many Jews look european or regular American, it is their religion and heritage that holds them together.

Take what you will from this post, I am just throwing some things that interest me out there. to be clear I do believe in a Jewish race/heritage, because they do. I do realize that some Jews are more Jewish than others. It is those on the outside of Jewishness, yet keep the faith that define the group to me. A group is only as strong as its members desire to keep it.

this illustrates perhaps a major issue of contention among and within jewish denominations – to what extent should we use non-religious explanations for jewish practices? the reform and conservative jewish movements are much more comfortable than the orthodox in using an anthropological explanation, for instance. there are big divisions among the orthodox, too, for that matter.

(and, although i am objecting to lapert’s explanation, i am not myself orthodox.)

You make an interesting observation about Islam and it highlights a good point unlike Christianity or Islam, Judaism was never a religion that wanted to evangelize and convert others – instead it always remained a more uniquely tribal religion (for better or worse). I think it many ways that difference makes it hard for non-Jews to understand the intertwined relationshp between ethnicity and religious identiy among Jews. I have found a warm welcome as an American Jew among the tiny Burmese Jewish community (a very non-religious one at that) in a way that I don’t think Irish Catcholics would find among Argentinian Catholics.

this is just what I am throwing out here, someone more knowledgeable on the subject should chime in.

Also, there was a time when tribes or clans meant everything in Scotland, now they are still around, but they don’t have the same meaning, they are certainly not on the level of being Jewish or not.

also, Islam is an Arabic religion, but you dont’ have to be Arab to practice it, all you had to do was be conquered lol.

but in another sense you are right. jews trace their heritage back to abraham, and it was the righteousness of abraham which gave him merit in the eyes of G-d, Who then chose to make a covenant with him, and Who later gave the Law to his descendants at mt. sinai. while a self-described jew today may be atheist and non-practising, he is jewish because, in principle, he is descended from a man who was righteous. a jew today may not be interested in being jewish, but it is out of his hands. he is a member of a people who was already chosen.

the most observant person who was not born jewish and who has not converted is not considered jewish, but an anti-religious communist who was born jewish is and always will be jewish.

obviously, this is quite different from how one becomes a baptist, or a christian generally.

(i defer to lapert if he cares to correct anything i have said here.)

WWII may explain some of it but the shift happened before that – you also have to look at the chaning make up of the jewish population around the same time (eastern europena immigrants began to dominate in the early 20th century replacing western european immigrants)