Mitt Romney’s attack on Gingrich for alleged lobbying prompts full-throated defense of Bush Medicare reform
Tea partier criticism of President George W. Bush and the early 2000s’ Republican Congress as oxymoronic “big government” conservatives have always focused on his signature No Child Left Behind education accountability reforms and the addition of coverage for Rx drugs via Medicare Part D.
Then Senator Rick Santorum voted for the bill, but has disavowed that vote during his current run for the GOP presidential nomination:
In the 2012 election, Senator Santorum was critical of that program. He stated that it was not funded properly as it simply spends whatever seniors need. He stated that his vote for that program was a mistake, but that he voted in favor of the reform because of other portions of the program, and that no other option was on the table. He claimed in a debate that the overall reform program had come in 40% under budget.
Will tea partiers now turn to Santorum as the more reliable conservative over his the former Speaker who this week embraced the Bush planin the Sunshine State:
I have always publicly favored a stronger Medicare program. I wrote a book in 2002 called “Saving Lives and Saving Money.” I publicly favored Medicare Part D for a practical reason, and that reason is simple. The U.S. government was not prepared to give people anything — insulin, for example — but they would pay for kidney dialysis. They weren’t prepared to give people Lipitor, but they’d pay for open-heart surgery. That is a terrible way to run Medicare.
I am proud of the fact — and I’ll say this in Florida — I’m proud of the fact that I publicly, openly advocated Medicare Part D. It has saved lives. It’s run on a free enterprise model. It also included health savings accounts and it include Medicare alternatives, which gave people choices.
At what point must conservatives conclude that Newt and Mitt both fail the tea partier test and turn to Rick Santorum when he is the only remaining viable candidate that now opposes one of the main transgressions of Republicans that inspired the smaller government, tea party movement in the first place?
Mike DeVine
Atlanta Law & Politics columnist – Examiner.com
Editor - Hillbilly Politics
Co-Founder and Editor - Political Daily
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
More DeVine Gamecock rooster crowings at Modern Conservative, Unified Patriots, and Conservative Outlooks. All Charlotte Observer and Atlanta Journal-Constitution op-eds archived at Townhall.com.
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Yes, but
tooncesthecat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 10:36AM EST (link)Santorum cast the deciding vote in the Senate to pass Medicare Part D. He is a major flip-flopper on this issue and others (earmarks, the national right to work law, etc.). Plus, Santorum engages in class warfare by proposing to means test social security and medicare for current as well as future recipients. There are no limited government conservatives left in the race, now that Bachmann and Perry have withdrawn.
“Obama’s Last Day” @ www.tooncesthecat.wordpress.com
yes, we are dealing with non-tea partiers, but wouldn't those opposed to the Bush Rx Drug bill prefer
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 10:57AM EST (link)a candidate that now thinks it was a mistake, like Santorum, rather than a Newt or Romney that still favor it?
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
means testing is not 'class warfare', its sound policy
Freedoms Truth (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 10:59AM EST (link)Please.
Means testing is a GREAT idea, one that Mitch Daniels pointed out in the SOTU, for a simple reason:
We cannot afford our entitlement obligations, and paying millionaires welfare/entitlement subsidies when they can afford to pay their own way, is dumb.
“Santorum engages in class warfare by proposing to means test social security and medicare for current as well as future recipients”
if Santorum supports means-testing for entitlements, good for him! This does 3 good things: Make the system less costly, make the system more honest, as it is redistribution, and make the system more secure.
It boggles my mind that one would think the ‘limited government’ position is ‘lets make entitlements more expensive and pay rich people more in entitlements’. Bizarre. Democrats WANT that. The Republicans wanted a cap on benefits and liberal Democrat Ted Kennedy fought them. Why? Because they need to cover the ‘rich’ to keep the myth of ‘universal coverage’, rather than expose the system for what it is – a redistribution and welfare scheme.
The small-government position is to reduce spending. This does that. means testing is not ‘class warfare’, its sound policy
Freedoms Truth,
Travis Monitor – http://travismonitor.blogspot.com
Austin, TX
i like Means Testing these things, Freedoms Truth. It makes the truth obvious.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:11AM EST (link)What truth? That they’re *welfare programs*!
The minute an oldster who has saved for retirement no longer qualifies for the “free” medical care they were promised, the game of pretending that Medicare is anything other than welfare is over, the fig leaf blows away, and we can start talking honestly about it.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
yes, I also favor the means testing approach for truth out reason and
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:31AM EST (link)because its one of the few ways to get entitlement programs to sustainable level commensurate with our birth rate and worker per beneficiary ratio.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
agree 100%, need honesty in entitlements
Freedoms Truth (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:41AM EST (link)These entitlement programs are welfare programs disguised as something else.
Freedoms Truth,
Travis Monitor – http://travismonitor.blogspot.com
Austin, TX
Ask Hannity
tooncesthecat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:34AM EST (link)what he thinks about forcing him to contribute all of his working life to social security and medicare and then confiscating his contributions because he is a “millionaire”. Your statement is classic class warfare rhetoric, that sure sounds a lot like Obama:
“We cannot afford our entitlement obligations, and paying millionaires welfare/entitlement subsidies when they can afford to pay their own way, is dumb.”
There is difference between welfare and an entitlement. Welfare is a scheme to redistribute income from taxpayers to taxconsumers. The current Social Security and Medicare programs are not welfare because everyone who pays into the system benefits from the system. In regards to Social Security, they benefit in direct proportion to how much they have paid in. Those who earn the most are also the ones taxed the most for Medicare because there is no income cap (unlike Social Security) and because they already pay higher premiums. My current Medicare premium is significantly higher than my mother-in-law, because I have a significantly higher income. I’m not a millionaire, but I can’t support a candidate who would take away something from me that I have been forced to pay into for the past 50 years, since I started working at age 16. Even crazy Ron Paul wouldn’t do that, even though he thinks Social Security and Medicare are unconstitutional. The correct position is “no changes in Social Security or Medicare for anyone who is retired or is approaching retirement age.”
“Obama’s Last Day” @ www.tooncesthecat.wordpress.com
the false premise is that something exists to be taken away. There is no lockbox.
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:44AM EST (link)What you “have” is a promise that can’t be kept and the nation regain fiscal viability. When we started aborting babies instead of raising them, we sealed our doom by not creating the next generation required to pay for all this.
Many people paid into private pensions that go bankrupt. The federal government is now bankrupt.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
What I have is a "promise" that must be kept
tooncesthecat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:58AM EST (link)Is it my fault that Republicans and Democrats spent the money contributed to the Social Security and Medicare trust funds? In what way should I or anyone else over the age of 50 be punished for their corruption and profligacy. The Simpson-Bowles Commission didn’t propose means testing, but offered countless ways to solve our fiscal mess that Republicans and Democrats are ignoring. Tom Coburn, Rand Paul, and others have proposed ways to reduce federal spending without means testing social security and medicare. How about adopting some of their proposals. And could we collect the $1 billion in back taxes owed by federal employees or reduce the fraud in Medicare and Medicaid before we start cutting benefits to anyone. If you want to lose this election, then nominate a candidate like Santorum (or Mitch Daniels for that matter) who wants to make immediate changes that will impact current social security and medicare recipients.
“Obama’s Last Day” @ www.tooncesthecat.wordpress.com
The main promises that must be kept are that we form a more perfect union and that our rights to Life, Liberty
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:13PM EST (link)and happiness pursuits be made more secure. We could spend all of our national income and sustain social security with many arguing that we “can’ sustain it and that soc sec is not part of the fiscal problems of deficits and debt. That is a lie. We produce a finite amount of gross domestic product and any amount allocated to Soc Sec is money that cannot be spent on defense or left in private hands to create more wealth.
The problem with Soc sec is that it is too generous in its promises.
In order to prevent wheelbarrow inflation and save the nation from the debt crisis, which is existential and fundamental, the notion that it can be done because we could tax enough to sustain Soc sec is folly.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
You are singing from the Lib Democrat playbook
Freedoms Truth (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:59AM EST (link)They know that entitlements are the ‘third rail’ because ‘everyone’ benefits.
The MORE DEPENDENTS THE BETTER FOR THEM.
Your statement: “The current Social Security and Medicare programs are not welfare because everyone who pays into the system benefits from the system.”
Is exactly what obama would say and the Democrats want you to believe.
In REALITY:
- Government TAKES your money
- Government SPENDS your money
- You only get what Government says you can get
That’s a socialized welfare system.
And no, the rich do not ‘benefit’, they pay in far more than they take out. As a 1% er myself, PLEASE don’t force me to take those ‘benefits’. Just be honest with me, take your money, steal it and give it to someone else.
I dont want my govt stealing 15% of my salary and then telling me they are doing me a big favor by giving a fraction of it back and saying its my retirement security. I dont need your social security or your medicare just leave me alone, thank you!
“My current Medicare premium is significantly higher than my mother-in-law, because I have a significantly higher income”
Do you realize the INSANITY of that? Do you pay more at the supermarket because you have more income?
Of course not. You should pay free market rates for that.
If you are not, then you are part of a redistribution system. Time to admit it.
“Even crazy Ron Paul wouldn’t do that, even though he thinks Social Security and Medicare are unconstitutional.”
Then he’s a hypocrite for supporting something he says is unconstitutional.
Freedoms Truth,
Travis Monitor – http://travismonitor.blogspot.com
Austin, TX
Marco Rubio would be surprised
tooncesthecat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:08PM EST (link)to learn that he is a Democrat. And my position is exactly the same as his. He has very articulately spoken out about preserving the current system for his mother and changing the system for his children. You see, Marco Rubio’s mother and I didn’t have a choice. The government did confiscate our money for our entire working lives. I wish that I had had a choice, which is what I believe younger workers ought to be given. But to confiscate my money a second time just because I provided for my retirement and to force me to go into the marketplace at age 65 to buy private insurance is unreasonable. Yes, it’s socialism, but tell that to the Republicans and Democrats in Congress who forced it on us. I’m not to blame here.
“Obama’s Last Day” @ www.tooncesthecat.wordpress.com
Rubio wants to CHANGE the system
Freedoms Truth (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:13PM EST (link)He proposes “changing the system for his children.”
Is that your position? Then we are in violent agreement.
We need to change the system to one of means-testing.
Look, we are talking about the principle here: We should move towards means-testing.
You are letting your personal self-interest concern override that question. I get your point. You get screwed by a law change after paying into the system. That’s why most GOP candidates are talking only about changing for next generation. Ryan, etc.
If the transition is that we maintain benefits for those already on it, fine. My understanding was that Santorum held that view as well, btw, so you, Rubio and Santorum are on the same page. Maybe I’m wrong.
“Yes, it’s socialism,”
I will close on that point of agreement.
Freedoms Truth,
Travis Monitor – http://travismonitor.blogspot.com
Austin, TX
Agreed
tooncesthecat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:35PM EST (link)You and I are now on the same page, in support of Rubio and Ryan. But Santorum wants to change the system now for current beneficiaries and he said so in the CNN debate. Daniels also appears to want to make the change to means testing for current beneficiaries. That I can’t support, not out of self-interest because it won’t pass Congress, but because that position will cost us the election.
“Obama’s Last Day” @ www.tooncesthecat.wordpress.com
No because the gop wanted the bill as much
Juggernaut (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 10:44AM EST (link)as Floridians. They do need to fix portions of the bill with a push towards private market solutions and cut costs while removing unnecessary items like allergy and congestion drugs and sexual enhancement drugs.
RomneyCare is Right Wing Socialism – please feel free to use is as often as possible…….it will kill his campaign.
Romney “severely conservative”? That’s the opposite of a “compassionate conservative” like George W. Bush? Actually, we know what a severely conservative is. It’s Dick Cheney and Mitt Romney is no Dick Cheney.
agreed 'naut
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 10:45AM EST (link)more later
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Cool, good point though considering
Juggernaut (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 10:57AM EST (link)n/t
RomneyCare is Right Wing Socialism – please feel free to use is as often as possible…….it will kill his campaign.
Romney “severely conservative”? That’s the opposite of a “compassionate conservative” like George W. Bush? Actually, we know what a severely conservative is. It’s Dick Cheney and Mitt Romney is no Dick Cheney.
Newt's support for mandates ...
Freedoms Truth (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 10:53AM EST (link)Newt’s support for mandates …is a bigger issue in my book. 80% of the House GOP ended up voting for Medicare Part D, and none of the Presidential contenders want to repeal it. People who want to make this a conservative purity test are missing a few key points, such as, if we are to underwrite healthcare costs for seniors, helping them pay for drugs is more cost-effective than pushing them towards hospital-care only subsidies.
Moreover, it is popular. Of course, that only CONFIRMS the absolute 100% necessity of repealing Obamacare root and branch before it becomes locked in as a ‘benefit’ with millions. For that reason, we need to be wary of the “I will repeal it” fine print.
Romney will NOT repeal it all. He will ‘repeal and replace’ with something that will still be overbearing.
People have made a big deal about Newt sitting on the couch with Pelosi. Bad visual, but nobody talks much about him standing with Hillary in 2005 to go ‘bipartisan’ on healthcare. Newt’s support for mandates in Massachusetts bill mark him as semi-supportive of this approach.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/newt-gingrichs-changing-stance-on-health-care-mandates-fact-checker-biography/2011/12/09/gIQAVl0lkO_blog.html
This may not be a full negative as Gingrich is actually quite knowledgeable about this topic.
But he like govt technocratic solutions, that doesnt make him the most conservative or free market. I’ve stated prior that Santorum has the best approach on healthcare of the remaining candidates.
Freedoms Truth,
Travis Monitor – http://travismonitor.blogspot.com
Austin, TX
exactly right FT - If we are going to have Medicare, then
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:03AM EST (link)it was right to have drug treatment as part of it.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
For GC - another Newt resume slip?
Freedoms Truth (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:32AM EST (link)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJQsLFhuyOY
Gingrich was a Rockefellar Republican in 1964 …
yet on Monday said he was for Goldwater (maybe that was in the general election) as part of his conservative credentials.
Newt’s grandiose claim about supply side economics, when he had NOTHING to do with developing that, and was a mere backbencher supporting Reagan (nothing wrong with that, but he puffed his resume), made me alert to what else he over-stated.
Freedoms Truth,
Travis Monitor – http://travismonitor.blogspot.com
Austin, TX
At least when Leary's resume slip was discovered Georgia Tech got Paul
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:46AM EST (link)Johnson!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
any repeal/reform that leaves the mandate that private ins cos cover pre-existing conditions as is
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:28AM EST (link)will leave in place the main mechanism that would eventually bankrupt the private health ins industry. And of course that is one of the few provisions of the bill that is very popular with the voting public, due to their economic ignorance and the cowardice of the candidates to deal with it head on.
What is needed are major free market reforms that would lower prices (see interstate competition sales, scaled back Medicare and tort reform) and thus allow private ins cos to cover some pre-existing and then have a much smaller govt program to deal with a much reduced number of uninsureds. imho
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Pre-existing condition rule destroys insurance concept
Freedoms Truth (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:34AM EST (link)That’s the bottom line:
Pre-existing condition rule destroys insurance concept and turns it into wealth redistribution. Which then FORCES Government to turn a free-market system into a socialized regulatory system.
It’s not the mandates to own insurance, its the mandates ON insurance that are the problem.
Liberate insurance.
Freedoms Truth,
Travis Monitor – http://travismonitor.blogspot.com
Austin, TX
Spot on
In The Hook (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:36AM EST (link)But we have to propose something like this when we pitch for the repeal of Obamacare. If we don’t, we’ll be eviscerated, and rightly so, for not taking our jobs as a governing party seriously.
Repeal and replace. That’s the way to go. The advocacy around here by some folks to just repeal it and that’s it makes no tactical or logical sense.
“Hello? You play to win the game.”
Support conservatives that can win.
http://www.marcorubio.com
yes, we have to address the issue and the solution is complicated and
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:40AM EST (link)depends on major reforms to lower costs. For the life of me I don’t know why the candidates don’t make ending state health ins monopolies a centerpeice! One of the main reasons we gave up the articles of Confederation for the US Constutution was to allow federal regulation of interstate commerce and thus stop states from acting like separate nations and this have a national free economy. Yet, in this one area, we have deferred to the states. makes no sense.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Why is that true, In The Hook? Just as Congress's 5% approval rating ....
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:03PM EST (link)reflects both those who think they’re moving too much to the right and those who think they’re moving too much to the left, some who want Obamacare repealed don’t think it went far enough.
The proposal to “repeal and discuss”, therefore, will earn more support than any plan to “repeal and replace with X”.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
Repeal and discuss is fine
In The Hook (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:10PM EST (link)Provided that you end up with a plan in the end. My point, as I made elsewhere, is that we are already on a freight train headed for a cliff when it comes to the amount of money we spend on healthcare in this country both publicly and privately. Something must be done to change that. All Obamacare did was strap a rocket onto that train and press ignition on it. Getting rid of the rocket is very good, but there’s still the problem of the cliff coming up and the regular engine going full steam ahead.
“Hello? You play to win the game.”
Support conservatives that can win.
http://www.marcorubio.com
Nice to find we're in agreement, In The Hook.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:28PM EST (link)And you’re right, the entitlement state must be wound down. The gravy train will stop, the question is whether it’ll stop near the station or whether it’ll go off the cliff.
We’re not going to solve that in 2012. The best we can do is to elect a POTUS who isn’t afraid to cut away the rocket, and a Congress who will work to pour sand into the train engine.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
We're in agreement on the principles acat
In The Hook (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:42PM EST (link)It’s the tactics where we are not in agreement. And that’s a fair place to disagree.
May I present, Tom Coburnon Newt..
http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/289249/when-gingrich-tried-and-failed-intimidate-tom-coburn
“Hello? You play to win the game.”
Support conservatives that can win.
http://www.marcorubio.com
acat, I'm not sure that repeal and discuss is an option
lineholder (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:39PM EST (link)It may be what the general public would prefer, but for the health care industry, it may not be an option.
There’s already been a certain amount of damage done by PPACA that won’t be totally undone. We can stop it from going any further than it has by repealing PPACA, and we might be able to replace the current legislation with a bill that would reverse a few trends.
There are just elements of the health care industry that are riding along a rather dangerous precipice at this time. They need something a bit more substantial than discussion.
You're right, G.C. The model is flood insurance.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:46AM EST (link)Federal mandates around premiums and benefits have led to the odd situation where the only people issuing flood insurance are the Federal government.
Your insurance company may write the policy, but it’s FEMA who administer it.
Reform of Obamacare without repeal of these points is going to take health coverage in the same direction.
Note, by the way, that Gingrich had a hand in HIPPA, and one of the major underlying parts there was standardization of billing codes for health care practices.
While HIPPA is not popular, its’ benefits are not well understood – forcing doctors to standardize a bit more make selling insurance across state lines much simpler, and indicates to this cat that Newt is the better one to tackle repealing Obamacare and working on a true replacement.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
amen acat - I am for a national economy - I think that most 10th amendment issues
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:56AM EST (link)are best reserved mostly to social issues and have long pointed out that most of the problems with over-regulation of interstate commerce are not about consitutionality but rather about the substantive wisdom of same.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
HIPAA does have its benefits, acat
lineholder (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 12:10PM EST (link)Standardizing for billing is one of them. Protecting patient health information is another. I think Newt does understand the nuts and bolts, gears and cogs, that this policies have been built around better than most, and it does fit into his personality and nature to be someone who would think of better ways via free-market capitalism that the “machinery” as a whole could operate more efficiently pertaining to cost.
I wish there was so way for a broader scope of people to understand what Obama has done by putting place O-care into place. We needed to stay within an operating budget where health care concerned. And a Volkswagen might have allowed to succeed. Obama bought a Bentley!!!
Santorum, G.C.? No.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:20AM EST (link)Or, more accurately, {copulation} no!
Look, one of the major problems the next POTUS is going to have to deal with is unwinding AFCSME and other union retirement funding.
How on earth do you expect Santorum, who had significant union backing in the past, to do so?
Not to mention, should Santorum become the GOP nominee, we’ll be subjected to months of “Right-wing theocracy” adverts.
I’m just not willing to go through that – and I say this as someone who was happy to support Pawlenty and Perry – for a petulant, whiny, no-executive-experience hack like Santorum.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
loving the passionate mews! It does seem like we are unpicking a nominee than
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:38AM EST (link)picking one. The briefs against all three viable remaining candidates are much easier to write than one touting any of them.
As of the last five minutes, I have not yet withdrawn my post-NH endorsement of Mitt…stay tuned…
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Destruction is always the easier task, G.C.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, January 25th at 11:59AM EST (link)And yes, I am aware that you are still backing Willard.
I am still backing Gingrich, warts and all.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
It depends on their view
conservativeparrothead Wednesday, January 25th at 3:34PM EST (link)So the argument Newt made the other night is compelling, if we are going to pay for their Open Heart Surgery, which is going to cost probably $100,000 why wouldnt we pay for Lipitor or High Blood Pressure medication to perhaps prevent the $100,000 surgery.
So if you recognize that Medicare is what it is, and although you may not like it, that its not going away and the only thing is to reform it somehow, then it makes no sense not to include the drugs in the benefit.
The problem however, is not necessarily the benefit, its that it wasnt paid for and the fact that once the drug companies knew the Govt was paying the bill, the price Im sure has shot up. Its like when you take your car to a body shop, they ask: Who’s paying, you or the insurance?