Even if that means on America soil
Many things make me proud of America, many of which make possible what I am most proud of.
Before we could make liberty possible outside the borders of the United States, we had to reap the benefits of what made prosperity possible inside the United States.
Judeo-Christian values, brilliant Founding fathers, and the courage of millions to press toward the mark of those values and the ideals expressed in the Declaration made us the greatest nation in the history of mankind.
What we accomplished for Liberty in the Lower Forty-Eight would be what makes me second most proud of these United States.
But what we have sacrificed for Liberty for non-Americans is what makes me most proud (see Europe, The Philippines, Japan, Korea, Grenada, Nicaragua, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan).
And the occasion for my expression of this pride at this moment in time relates to a particular and very small minority of non-Americans to whom we must now confer the liberty we have so selflessly conferred on others in the past.
But first, I would direct your attention to the millions of Japanese and Germans we defeated in WWII. All those of Soviet, Chinese, East European, Cuban, Iranian and Vietnamese descent we have liberated and granted asylum.
Now, we come to a few Afghans that were captured after 911 that were in the wrong place in Afghanistan at the wrong time that we admit have no connection to al Qaida, five to seven years after their capture.
As a point of reference, the author of this column is a neo-con, pro-executive war powers hawk that favors wide commander-in-chief powers to identify and KILL the enemy, understanding that innocents will be killed.
So, here we are, seven years on, with innocents captured, that we now are satisfied are innocents but that no country will repatriate.
What are we to do?
It is obvious. We must set them free in the Land of Liberty.
That the liberation is being done by a President that doesn’t understand Liberty is of no consequence on the bottom line issue of what America MUST do.
This is not about appeasing the opinion of any foreign power. This is about what we are.
Time matters, and even the Bush administration admitted that certain individuals were innocent but that they could not get their home nations to agree to repatriate them.
We must set them free among us, even if by the Obama Administration. The fact is that just as we obviously kill innocents in justifiable acts of war, we also capture innocents, and when we are satisfed that they are innocent, and when no other nation will accept them, then we must grant them asylum.
And if the Reagan-defined “safety net for the truly needy” finds them engulfed thereby, then we must feed them.
We are the United States of America.
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer, Examiner.com and Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Originally published by Mike DeVine, Legal Editor for The Minority Report
Moe Lane
Steve Maley
Dan McLaughlin
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Daniel Horowitz
Mike,
mailloux (Diary) Friday, March 27th at 11:30PM EST (link)I clicked on the linked article. It seemed to indicate that the fed court may not have enough evidence in some cases to continue holding some of the detainees. My question is about the evidentiary standard in federal court to hold someone . . . is it a high hurdle or not? Does not enough evidence mean that there is some, but not a preponderance or beyond a reasonable doubt? And finally, the article doesn’t indicate why their home countries don’t want them. I’m no lawyer, so I simply want to know from someone who is a lawyer.
All in all, without knowing more, I’d be a bit reluctant to see them set free based on a DC federal court. Maybe they are perfectly innocent, but I’d like to see some of the questions I cited above answered before I’d feel real comfortable about welcoming them with asylum in the US. That’s just me, but heck, I’m a little paranoid.
Very much agreed about your point that the US has been the greatest agent of freedom in the history of mankind and often at a cost of blood and material sacrifice.
If you answer tonight, I probably won’t see it till sometime tomorrow evening . . . I’m a bit tired now, so I think I’ll hit the sack.
Take Care, mailloux
Why I say MOST proud and why that should not diminish pride in nos. 2-100
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:36AM EST (link)Wouldn’t any nation of free people do what it must to remain free? yes
But look at what this nation has done. After we defeat an enemy, we rebuild the enemy and offer liberty. Quite unique in world history, but after WWII, I consider it mandatory, morally, which is why I have so much contempt, not only for the left, but also for the so-called realists, who, after Saddam was deposed, suggested that we leave the nation either in chaos or under the control of a chosen despot.
OF COURSE we gave them a chance for representative democracy.
And guess what? It took!
Just like in Germany, Japan and South Korea.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Mike,
mailloux (Diary) Friday, March 27th at 11:30PM EST (link)I clicked on the linked article. It seemed to indicate that the fed court may not have enough evidence in some cases to continue holding some of the detainees. My question is about the evidentiary standard in federal court to hold someone . . . is it a high hurdle or not? Does not enough evidence mean that there is some, but not a preponderance or beyond a reasonable doubt? And finally, the article doesn’t indicate why their home countries don’t want them. I’m no lawyer, so I simply want to know from someone who is a lawyer.
All in all, without knowing more, I’d be a bit reluctant to see them set free based on a DC federal court. Maybe they are perfectly innocent, but I’d like to see some of the questions I cited above answered before I’d feel real comfortable about welcoming them with asylum in the US. That’s just me, but heck, I’m a little paranoid.
Very much agreed about your point that the US has been the greatest agent of freedom in the history of mankind and often at a cost of blood and material sacrifice.
If you answer tonight, I probably won’t see it till sometime tomorrow evening . . . I’m a bit tired now, so I think I’ll hit the sack.
Take Care, mailloux
My position on this does not depend on federal court standards, but
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:54AM EST (link)since you asked, the fed court standard on this issue is equivalent to the proof beyond a reasonable doubt standard in criminal court, and so, does not purport to declare innocence, but rather, only the absence of the proof of guilt.
That was the only link I could find.
No, what I am referring to is the fact that the Bush Admin admitted and what common sense demands, is that we have some detainees that were mistakenly captured, and that after so much TIME, we must set them free, even if that means that they be set free in the United States.
We do this all the time with asylum seekers.
That they were picked up in Afghanistan and detained at Gitmo, should not deprive them of the good will of the United States.
I ma one that is for BROAD executive war powers that allow killing of innocents as collateral damage, but after this much time, when we are sure we have inncents captured, them we should do like we did to known guilty enemies in Japan and Germany…
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“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Mike, I think asylum should be a rarity . . .
mailloux (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 10:53AM EST (link)First off,Thanks for the info!
In principle, I do agree that an innocent man should not be imprisoned. That said, I also have great confidence in our military. I think in the vast majority of cases, if a person was detained, then there was probably a good reason for it.
If the bar to surpass is beyond a reasonable doubt, then I believe this may open the US to dangers. For example, it’s stories like this one that give me great pause: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/us_world/Taliban-Chief-Once-a-Gitmo-Prisoner.html.
Here a released prisoner returned to the battlefield. In this case, it wasn’t just a goat herder. I prefer that fellows like this not be roaming our country essentially free.
Again, I understand and appreciate the very noble goal of your diary. If there’s not enough evidence to hold them, then they’ve got to be released. But, I would be for returning them to their home country. If their home country doesn’t want them, then I’d like to know why. Do they see them as a threat? If the prisoner was completely innocent, then they were not likely an informer while in Gitmo. If innocent, they’d have nothing to inform about. Hence, their lives should not be threatened in their home country for ratting out the Taliban while at Gitmo.
All in all, I’d like to see asylum as the rarity . . . only granted if a case can be made that this person is no threat at all to the American public. In other words, if it’s a high bar to keep them detained, then it should also be a high bar to grant asylum.
Take Care, mailloux
I agree with you, mailloux
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:01AM EST (link)The reason Obama announced that gitmo will be completely shut down by Jan 1, 2010 was to fulfill a campaign promise he had made. It is not an announcement that reflects a respect for securing and defending the US is of the most prime importance. The US Government should not be so hasty to shut it down.
absolutely, and until I see Gitmo closed, it isn't closed
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:12AM EST (link)All Obama has done is say words. I am not holding my breath till its closed.
My prediction is that very few ill even be brought here for trial. Only those he has Miranda rights evidence on !
And I think the ones that Bush Admin identified as innocents number in the low single digits.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
He's broken campaign promises before
TNJim (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:05AM EST (link)Proposed legislation on the White House website for 48 hours for public review before he signs it, anyone? Plus, executive orders can be rescinded. Nevertheless, actual innocents there should be released, no argument with Mike there, but it should be kept open for the guilty as well, those who carried out actual attacks, as well as those who may have simply been unarmed point men.
I hope I’m not proven right in thinking Obama’s making a huge mistake.
I totally agree with the high standard you suggest and am sure that
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:10AM EST (link)asylum would be rare.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
just because they didn't have a gun in their hands that time doesn't make them innocent bystander
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:23PM EST (link)They have many lookouts, informants, collaborators, and OF COURSE they are ALL going to proclaim innocence – mostly because they don’t see themselves as being guilty of anything!!!!! The Jihad is a Noble cause and/or duty to them, we are the guilty and they are all INNOCENT folk forced to Terrorize and Kill us :eye-roll:
That is my biggest concern Just because they weren’t firing a weapon in one case does NOT make them Innocent!!!!! Having insufficient EVIDENCE also does NOT mean they are innocent, it just means we didn’t have the time while our Soldiers fight for their lives, and the Lives and Freedoms for others, to stand around and take notes, collect evidence, etc…..
I would consider Asylum for any “claimed Innocents” if they cooperate while in custody, and hopefully even help us to get info from fellow Prisoners (who are, no doubt, claiming innocence too)!!! Otherwise, they need to be shipped back to country where collected – if they refuse to take them back and the country they are citizens of also refuse to let them back -Sorry/Tough, they stay locked up until the War is over! Hopefully the next time we encounter them on the battlefield they catch a bullet rather than be re-captured before killing any of ours or our Allies.
Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
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So, JLD, you agree that people determined to be innocent should be released
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 3:23PM EST (link)Of course, we all understand that the determination would include an infinite number of scenarios and that not having a gun would only be one.
But we have released many innocents under Bush and Bush Admin said that we had some that the home countries would not take back due to suspicions that have not been satisfied, and I am sure that you would be for releasing ACTUAL INNOCENTS without a country into the US.
see the word “actual”
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
We should set them free....
speciallist (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:42AM EST (link)in Cuba…(I hear the healthcare is great there)
and if they are good swimmers, they will be Americans!
we will welcome them …..(and hand them a towel to dry off)
Many at redstate are having knee jerk reactions that are unworthy of this country
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:56AM EST (link)simply because Obama’s admin is doing this. America set free known guilty Japanese and Germans after WWII. These known innocent detainees at Gitmo that no country will accept are akin to asylum seekers and we must set them free here and now, or we are not the United States I fell in love with as a child.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
This has been the one and only thing that
AKSteveB (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:10AM EST (link)has bothered me about Gitmo. I don’t care about enhanced interrogations or most of that stuff, but face it, amongst some of these guys are a few goat herders who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I’ve never understood how we would be hurt just admitting that.
Hell is other people – Sartre
Thank you and this is exactly my point - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:22AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
after having Militarily completely defeating the Ideology associated with them
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:17AM EST (link)I do see a difference there/here….. but I will agree with your point there….. I want to know more about these folks before I come down either way! If this “War” were clearly ended would be one thing…. Specifically the ones in relation to China – I’m open to hearing more and considering Asylum…. Where are the Congressional Hearings (and this is a touchy subject, as are our arguments regarding any “Secret evidence” that we do NOT want exposed in Regular Courts across the US or Congressional Hearings – it is part of the whole overall Detainee issue/problem) on this? rather than whatever Dog and Pony show they may currently be having!?!?
Each and every Case must be carefully considered…. NOT an Obama “Blame America” and/or “Surrender First” notions and let the doors of GITMO be thrown open and everyone dumped onto USA streets…. As for most detained from the battle-fields I still want them held until the “War” is over… no matter how long that takes!
Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
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them
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:25AM EST (link)It sounds like you are for releasing the innocent and that is all I am calling for, and just to be clear, I am calling for the executive to do this on their own accord, and NOT for judicial review.
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“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
you know the danger...
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:41AM EST (link)Of an Obama that sees most these folks as having been “rounded up” by that “Evil Bush admin” and therefore most likely INNOCENT kind of BS logic… When the (Progressive) buffoons won’t admit the GWOT continues and have to PC the terms, you know (or, we certainly can easily suspect and draw the conclusion) they will be FUZZY on so many of the other details!!!!
I greatly respect the perspective you are trying to come at this from – I simply have ZERO trust for the current group of clowns (and even for turning any of it over to Progressive minded Judicial districts) for consideration. There are too many potential American lives at stake here still. Lets take a brief aside and look at this from the silly “Law Enforcement” standard (pre-911 think) that ObamaBinBiden (and other Progressive fools) want to return to — in Criminal cases even today SOME INNOCENT FOLKS GET CAUGHT UP! That is an absolute tragedy and we must work as hard as possible to prevent that from happening and setting anyone Free that may indeed be Innocent, but for the sake of letting a few folks that “JUST MIGHT BE INNOCENT” we don’t EMPTY THE DARN PRISONS!!! I know, somewhat lame comparison perhaps, but it is in-line with the Liberal mindset we see across America with Liberals who just let 100% CERTAIN CRIMINALS Free just because they want to make room in the Prisons for more folks rather than build more Prisons!
Take care brother
Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
“Liberals, looking to do for? America what they’ve done for? Detroit! which is DESTROY IT!”
“I think, therefore I am Conservative”
“Conservative by choice, Republican by necessity”
“You can lead a Liberal to the Truth/Facts, but you cannot make them THINK!”
“Romney [No, not my first choice] does NOT have a MORMON problem. He has a, far too many Americans; these days; are MORONS problem!”
Follow @JLenardDetroit
(RS:Help) (JLD) (Hollyweird) (Brain-deads) (SPIN-cycle) (Obamaocare) (Party of kNOw) (Conservatism) (TEApeats) (respectful) (message) (Warning: Children Will Die!!)
Heil “O” Hell No Obamao is NOT MY PRESIDENT! “No U won’t”
I want “O” to FAIL (here, here, & whole Diary (Ofail) here, is why)
“The first Liberal was Satan” – a Rush caller (other Quotes)
Obama's actions and inactions show that he doesn't see MOST of these detainees as innocent
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:50AM EST (link)Yes, they have played the game for the left on some rhetorical levels, but on many executive power policies, esp when forced by court matters already in progress, they have defaulted to Bush positions
but more specificallye, the Bush administration had already admitted several of these detainees were innocent but that their home countries would not accept them.
The fact that I have seen that controls what Obama actually DOES is that he will not risk releasing a threat to the US given the threat a future attack by same poses to his popularity.
Bush actually did release many that did attack us again, but he could do so given his credibility on the issue given his post 911 record.
Obama cannot take that risk, has not and will not.
He has SAID a lot of things to appease the left, but he has done nothing to risk an attack.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
the war was over
David Hinz (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:40PM EST (link)“America set free known guilty Japanese and Germans after WWII.”
We did not set them free while the war was still ongoing.
When will the war — sorry — when will the Overseas Contingency Operation be over?
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Yes, that was throwaway line not really germane to my point about
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 3:24PM EST (link)actual innocents mistakenly captured and detained
sorry for the diversion
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“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Wow! pretty thought provoking diary...
penguin2 (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 6:48AM EST (link)My gut reaction was “he’s got to be kidding.” But. I read through the diary and follow-up comments twice and am willing to consider your points. In fact, logically and intellectually, you are probably right.
Emotionally, it is a stirred up hornet’s nest. My understanding is that they are Chinese Muslims, taken from the “battlefield.” Does this mean on a city street, in the marketplace, or where armed fighters were found? Can they prove what or why they were in the “wrong place, at the wrong time?” I would want to know why their home country does not want them back? Do their home countries see them as a threat, agitators?
You mentioned something about other “asylum seekers” -have these individuals asked for asylum? That would be helpful.
Yes, you certainly were thought provoking, and your reasoning is faultless. And my first reaction; how can we be so crazy? But, if they are innocents, and we have no legal or moral ground to hold them, then it is not an unreasonable action. Darn, hard to argue with a lawyer!
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Great questions all but I believe the suspected innocents also include
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 9:31AM EST (link)non-Chinese muslims.
more later
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I just was reminded that Bush released/transferred over 500 detainees
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:40AM EST (link)during his term, many of whom were deemed innocent. I don’t know the breakdown though between those deemed innocent and those we knew were combatants against us that we deemed no longer a threat. I do recall that we recaptured or killed not a few that returned to the battlefield. I do not recall that we ever captured or killed any that we deemed innocent and released.
Of course, there is no guarantee of infallibility in life and certainly we could make a mistake and a person that was innocent could decide upon release to become a terrorist.
Such is life.
But the fact that there is no guarantee of perfect justice this side of eternity does not argue for holding indefinitely those we deem innocent, esp after years of investigations.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
why stop with putting gitmo detainees on US soil and paying them to live here?
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 7:12AM EST (link)If the growth and expansion of the US Government welfare programs is what makes you the most proud of America, then why limit this to gitmo detainees who previous and present US Government officials admit are innocents? There are people all around the world who believe they are innocents, and the US (aka Great Satan) and Israel (aka Little Satan) are the root cause of all of the pain and misery they suffer from. We can find US Government officials previous and present that will admit these people are innocent victims too. If you believe the admission of innocents and victimhood, and the subsequent decision to pay them to live in the US are what makes you most proud of America then let’s go global with the idea.
You may think I’m just one of those old fashioned fuddy duddy conservatives that is most proud of individual Americans and private US charity organizations instead of a giant US Government Welfare program. Everybody is entitled to their own vision of what makes them most proud of America, and I do not intend to change your opinion. I also do not intend to agree with you on this one.
What makes me most proud of America is our liberation of others. Let me quote myself!
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 9:29AM EST (link)“But what we have sacrificed for Liberty for non-Americans is what makes me most proud (see Europe, The Philippines, Japan, Korea, Grenada, Nicaragua, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan).”
I see the granting of asylum as a subset of same.
And of course, I believe in controlled immigration.
The subject matter here is first and foremost the freeing of the innocent that we now hold, and only tangentially that, of course, since we are at fault in seizing them, that we would not treat them like voluntary immigrants that should have to have a private sponsor so as not to enter the US as a public charge.
Your gripe seems to be with what Reagan called the “safety net for the truly needy”, and not setting the innocent free. Do I wish that private charity were THE safety net as it was, primarily from 1776-1900? Yes.
And quite frankly, if the foreigners we end up releasing are anything like most immigrants to the US, they will do just fine and end up paying the taxes to take care of citizens in the net.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
private charities are the safety net today. It did not end in 1900.
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 9:57AM EST (link)I know a vietnamese guy who was one of the “boat people” in the 1980′s. He was only 13, and he and too many others were on a leaky boat in the South China Sea trying to sail to Malaysia. The only thing the US Federal Government did to help this non-voluntary immigrant is have a US Naval vessel nearby save him from drowning. He entered the US in San Francisco, and the Catholic Relief organization helped him find an American family in Ohio that adopted him and his brother.
The money the US spends to keep them in gitmo is money well spent for the US Government to provide for the common defense of our nation from people who want to attack and kill us.
The money the US wants to spend to pay gitmo detainees to live on US soil is a concern for the well-being of the gitmo detainee and not for the security of the American people.
I do not see any reason why there needs to be any hurry to shut down gitmo, and I want the US Government to use as much time as it takes to relocate them with the security of America as the top concern.
pilgrim
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 10:55AM EST (link)Catholic organizations do work with immigrants, but with adoption and foster care many of these”charities” are reimbursed by the government. They basically contract with the government to provide these services. I know Catholic Charities does help people with paperwork and sponsor them for their status here but they also help people apply for government assistance. They even pick up huge numbers of applications from the welfare office and and assist their clients fill them out. We do have automatic welfare for refugees here including cash payments.
Catholic charities
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:09AM EST (link)also does private adoptions. Your friend may have been a private adoption. I’m sorry I read my post again and forgot to include that.
thank you mom2oneson
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:11AM EST (link)I was only writing about one guy, and his situation, and I did not mean that it is the same for every immigrant. Since he was only thirteen at the time he may not have known about any reimbursement, or if there were any, to his adopted parents. I favor contractions instead of expansions in the role the US Government has in Welfare programs. There was a reduction under Pres. Clinton when the rules were changed so that States are not rewarded for increasing the numbers of people on the welfare rolls, and I applaud this.
amen, and Obama's stimulus ended that welfare reform contraction - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:32AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
adoption
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:34AM EST (link)I thought it was a beautiful and inspiring story.
What I meant was not everything that looks like a private charity is always private, they may be gov contractors, espeically with adoption and foster care and the Catholic organizations assisting refugees go to great lengths to help them receive welfare.
I don’t know enough about welfare reform, but what I’ve seen in welfare to work which would be from the welfare reform laws isn’t so great. They might be off welfare but in a worse situation or they might be off of AFDC (cash assistance) but recieving subsidized daycare for 6 children, free gasoline or bus rides, taxi rides to and from work, a car and all a another government office full of case mangers and clerks for welfare to work. I can’t see how a $300 month AFDC payment with $500 in food stamps and medicaid is so despised while everyone applauds the $1200/month daycare payments, $1000/month in taxi rides with $500 in food stamps and medicaid.
more of the story, mom2oneson
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:59AM EST (link)Some might call this threadjack, but gamecock and I are cool. When I talked with Luan I told him I had a strong interest in staying in school with my 2S draft deferment because I did not want deadly bullets coming at me over there in Vietnam. He understood my point, and he told me that he and his brother decided to leave the country because they were being forced to leave their mom and dad to go to an indoctrination camp. They did not want to leave their mom and dad, but if they were forced to do it then they would rather leave the country than go to that camp. The family was not wealthy or political or anything like that. They were full vietnamese, so their was no problem like the part vietnamese part American children had to endure. His mother cried when they left.
thank you for sharing
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:15PM EST (link)I can’t even imagine what his parents went through. That is so heart breaking.
He travelled to 'nam in 2000 and saw his parents. nt
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:34PM EST (link).
I don't want to shut down Gitmo, ever and the 1900 date is the approximate date
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 10:59AM EST (link)when many state governments started erecting vast safety nets due to industrialization. A great book on this movement is
The Tragedy of America Compassion
which echos many of your concerns about the welfare state, quite apart from how it may relate to a few innocent Gitmo detainees. I would love to read a pilgrim book review as a separate blog.
Certainly, private charity has continued since 1900. I have always been a huge contributor to homeless shelters myself as my second law office was next door to The Haven in Spartanburg. It is quite a tragedy though that so many over the years have limited their charitable efforts due to the vast welfare sate paid for in taxes.
With respect to how immigrants and others may access the welfare edifice is a fact of law however and it appears that current law would allow one granted asylum to apply for food stamps, welfare, etc and this is the law under which an innocent Gitmo detainee would be admitted.
Agreed that it is a waste of national defense funds to house the innocent at Gitmo and that money spent on welfare programs are not for national security.
I agree that we should take great care in disposing of the detainees at Gitmo, whether they need be detained indefinitely as POWs until the war ends or are relocated, and for those tried for war crimes.
With respect to those we determine are innocent, however, there should be a sense of urgency to set them free, especially after detentions of many years and extensive investigations of them.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Hey Mike? question on those Chinese Muslims....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 9:40AM EST (link)Did we pick them up in China OR were they in Afghanistan?
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I forgot but will check on the matter in more depth
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 9:52AM EST (link)I do recall that even under Bush, we admitted that we had likely innocent detainees and that the Chinese were among them and the main point I am making here does not really depend on any particular detainee, but rather is meant to rebut some on our side that seem to recoil at the thought of ever releasing anyone that was ever at Gitmo into the United States, seemingly as knee jerk reacion to the left’s vile vilification of Gitmo for years, as if admitting we made mistakes and have any innocents, that such an admission would somehow afifrm the claims of the left.
It would not, and it is quite obvious that just as we mistakenly kill innocents in war, we most certainly make mistakes with respect to those we capture, and that if their home country will not take them back due to the suspicion from being captured or we fear they will be tortured, then it is our way to liberate them and grant asylum esp given our fault in the matter.
Could we make a mistake? Of course. Bush did, after all, but after so much time we conclude that persons held are innocent, then we must set them free here if they have no where else to go.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Could we make a mistake....yes and that's why....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 10:31AM EST (link)I do NOT want then here!…..I believe recently in the judicial system being wrong would be Tiller the baby killer being found innocent but specifially on this subject of potential terrorists we have the hijackers of 9-11 “slipping” through law enforcment again and again. I would RATHER err on the side of caution ie: NO than put our country at risk from the inside…..I mean isn’t Obama and his merry band of socialists enough at this point in history?
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When you figure out how we can guarantee no mistakes, let me know!
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:07AM EST (link)There is nothing especially more risky about a person we deem innocent after years of investigations that is at Gitmo vs those we grant asylum from anywhere else. Indeed, the investigations of those at Gitmo have been much more extensive than asylum seekers. But with respect to innocent Gitmo detainees, we are at fault in their circustance and so have a special duty to effect justice.
Simply to refer to all at Gitmo as “they” with a blanket decision to never risk a mistake when we don’t do that in any other corcumstance strikes me as quite illogical and anathema to our love of Liberty.
Until Jesus returns, we do the best we can not to make mistakes, and believe me, I am not one that suggests that the American justice system apply to aliens, and remember, I am not for judicial releases into the US.
I am for the executive making that decision, just as I was under Bush and every President since Washington, in conjunction with US law on asylum.
The executive responsible for keeping us safe has a special and quite personal interest in NOT releasing terrorists in the US, for an attack by such a person after release would likely prevent re-election!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Well Mike you know me...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:13PM EST (link)there would be no Guantamo they would alll be dead on the battlefield! ergo no mistakes!
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Newsweek is tackling the same issue as you Mike...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:31PM EST (link)http://www.newsweek.com/id/191413
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The Weekly Standard also tackles the issue
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:42PM EST (link)http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/03/welfare_for_freed_gitmo_detain_1.asp
Thanks guys, I had already read those. My point is quite narrow
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 1:47PM EST (link)If we find a Gitmo detaineee to have been wrongly detained, and they are in essence a man without a country, then justice requires that we grant them liberty in the United States and be subject to the same rules as any other asylum seeker with respect to the ability to apply for public assistance.
I make no argument about the welfare system generally here and make no judgment about the merits of any particular detainee deemed to be innocent.
My only point is about the duty to liberate the innocent, once determined.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I do not disagree with your narrow point
pilgrim (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 2:22PM EST (link)I just wish that your diary had addressed the far wider point that DNI Dennis Blair recently made.
I do not hear Dennis Blair saying that for the truly needy who would otherwise starve to death we will provide some assistance. What I hear him saying is that for these people to start a new life of not attacking and killing Americans the US Government must pay them some money so they will start a new life. I strongly disagree with Dennis Blair.
I really think that he meant that they should be entitled to public assistance or
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 3:30PM EST (link)something akin to what we give to prisoners in America that are released from the Penitentiary (see Bush ticket and a few hundred dollars) but I think he or someone on this subject also said some thing that I do disagree with and that is that there is some tie between terrorism and poverty. That is bull.
But I think what we have to keep in mind here is that we are talking about INNOCENTS. I saw a discussion on Fox today where the Fox interviewer started talking about rehabilitation of terrorists. Incompetent journalist. The official had to twice remind him that we are talking about people that were mistakenly captured.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I need more elaboration on your premise, Mike
civil truth (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:36AM EST (link)In particular, there is a world of difference between a declaration of innocence (which is a rarity in our justice system) versus a determination that one cannot establish guilt by whatever the standard is (e.g. beyond reasonable double, preponderance of evidence).
Thus I would like more specfics as to whether the government actually is asserting their innocence, or rather that they don’t have enough evidence to establish their guilt. And that makes a big difference as to how we should proceed.
Nor are we talking about a homogenous collection of detainees, which means that blanket statements are not appropriate.
For instance, my understanding about the Chinese Muslims is that the Chinese government does not want to repatriate them because they view them as separatists (comparable to Tibetian nationists). The problem is that their activities in the U.S. may not be so peacible either (and they could be potential jihaidsts aginst China). Which really puts us in a pickle – except that the real question is 1) what were they doing in Afghanistan in the first place? It seems to me that while they may well not have taken up arms against our troops, they were there to be indoctrinated into an ideology that is hostile to the priniciples of our nation. It they are allowed into the U.S. while holding to a jihadist ideology, that would be injurious to our nation.
And I suspect this conundrum is what kept the Bush administration from resolving their status.
I’m not familiar with the other alleged innocents.
Your sentiment is most noble; the question is whether these prisoners fit the criteria of 1) innocence; 2) inability to repatriate; and 3) pose no danger to the U.S. or our interests.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
I am for the executive releasing people the executive determines is innocent and not
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 3:38PM EST (link)a court determination of not guilty due to a lack of evidence.
Commanders in Chief and those in the field have always done this since time immemorial.
The only issue here is that of asylum for men without a country.
But yes, I would favor an executive decision which would be the best assurance possible given that the executive has such a vital interest in not releasing a dangerous person since if they were to kill after release, it would ruin the political viability of the President.
I am making no claims as to any particular detainee’s case. I am simply accepting the word of Bush (who did release innocents, none of whom have been captured or killed later on a battlefield, as opposed to some known combatants we released thinking they were no longer a threat, but who did go back to fighting us) and now Obama that we have innocents that we have been unable to repatriate.
It would, of course, be quite unlikely that we didn’t capture innocents in the sweeps. Just as we know that we have unintentionally killed innocents via collateral damage.
My narrow point is one I see as quite non-debatable from the standpoint of basic human rights, and especially American values, i.e. that people we determine are innocent and not a threat, must eventually be released, even if into the US and that such innocents should not be held like POWs until the conflict is over since they were not combatants.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
So you appear to agree with my first two (of three) criteria
civil truth (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 7:11PM EST (link)1) Declaration of innocence, not merely inability to prove guilt…check
2) Inability to repatriate…check (though we’d better determine whether repatriation is their native county’s problem of the prisoner’s problem.)
Do you agree with my third criteria, which boils down to “not a threat” – which is not the same as innocence. That is, the determination has to demonstrate both innocence and lack of threat to the U.S., its citizens, and its vital national interests.
This of course is the most difficult to define and leaves a lot of room for weaseling. And I am not too confident that the current adminstration would find some weasel way to blame Bush for any ill consequences*, aided by its many acolytes in the press and in Congress.
A sticky wicket indeed.
*Example: “They were innocent when captured, but their mistreatment and extended incarceration at Gitmo by the evil Bush regime was responsible for their turning against us despite our administration’s magnamimous and humane gestures,,,” ad nauseum.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
yes, I do agree with all three of your criteria and your analysis - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 8:40PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
post-Elite Eight Ben-Hur caveat - The Roman Empire lasted 500 years
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 8:42PM EST (link)and I just saw them relase an innocent slave into Rome!
smile
Go Tar Heels and Cardinals on Sunday!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
This whole thread makes me afraid
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 11:45AM EST (link)I would be so scared if I was a POW. I feel really bad for the innocent people, I never thought about someone innocent being there.
Bravo that you do. All good people should feel that way, and any thinking person
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 3:39PM EST (link)should not be surprised that we have made mistakes in captures. Indeed, it would be a miracle if we hadn’t made mistakes. Bush admitted mistakes and released many but some remain who can’t yet be re-patriated. We can’t hold them in jail forever.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Very thought provocing.
djemi (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 12:53PM EST (link)I have to say that the idea of releasing these men into the US is not my cup of tea but it would appear that we may not have a choice, from a moral point of view. No innocent man deserves to be held indefently and should be freed, period. And as you say if no one else wants them we have to take them as it was our spilt milk in the first place.
“If I can’t shoot rabbits,then I can’t shoot fascist”
“With age, comes Wisdom, but only if you are paying Attention, son” my ‘Old Man’
RS Help files (h/t JLenardDetroit) Grassroots in Michigan
Moes Strategy
555 - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 3:40PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
On this Gitmo thing....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 4:36PM EST (link)Dennis Blair’s specific statement is…
“If we are to release them in the United States you can’t just sort of as you said put them on the street and leave them there but rather we need some sort of assistance to them to start a new life and not return to some of the conditions that may have inspired them in the 1st place, so all of that is a work in progress”
TWO THINGS “may and “inspired” I thought they were for SURE innocent….inspired them to do what? pray tell…..my my, that is a loaded statement on the basis of putting supposed innocent jihadis on the streets of the USA. Are they or are they NOT innocent? why I do believe The One and Intelligence Director are attempting to “re-educate” right here in our beautiful country…..The Saudi’s already do that why can’t they go there!
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My column is not about Blair's statement. It is about people who ARE innocent and that we determine
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 4:43PM EST (link)are innocent. I don’t pretend to know, but of course I would be shocked if none were innocent, given common sense and esp given that Bush released many and said several were innocent that we could bot repatriate.
Clearly Blair is confused.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Well my friend I agree with the " I would be shocked if none were innocent"....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 4:47PM EST (link)I am recommending because your diary is correct on American values NOT because I agree that these muslim extremist’s ought to be brought to our beautiful shores!
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I don't agree that Muslim extremists be brought to our shores either
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 4:52PM EST (link)I would keep them in Gitmo until the war is over. I would only bring innocents that we couldn’t repatriate after a reasonable period of time.
I would keep Gitmo open forever; have military tribunals and execute those guilty of war crimes.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I didn't say you did Mike however Dennis Blair did...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 4:57PM EST (link)“may and ” inspired” he WAS talking about those they are bringing to our shores! Your diary is based off the assumption that the government is RIGHT and there are innocents at Gitmo I am saying the government is LYING and or STUPID and they are going to attempt to re-educate them here!
It is going to happen The One will ensure that by next year those 70+ that are still there will be either in our streets or our jails!
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Bushlied rears it head again 28 days in? I don't assume the government is right.
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 6:08PM EST (link)I am making a very narrow argument that when the commander in chief determines a detainee was mistakenly seized and they can’t be repatriated, that we should give them asylum in the US.
Some of the ones being held now were identified as such by the Bush Admin which said it was trying repatriate several innocents. Bush actually did re-patiate some innocents as well. I don’t think Bush lied or was stupid. Did they make some mistakes on threat assessments of some actual combatants? yes
But as far as I know they made no mistakes we know of concerning innocents they repatriated.
I would say this. The assessment is two-fold: Are they innocent and are they a threat.
But I making an argument for a principle: that innocents be freed. That principle does not assume the government is right.
Life is not a Beach!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Foster a misunderstood underpriveledged caliphate fighter
Michael DeWeese (Diary) Saturday, March 28th at 7:20PM EST (link)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9AnyklMNaI
Brain Dead Republican
Wow. Standing up for justice and the rule of law when it comes to detainees.
RobW (Diary) Monday, March 30th at 5:49PM EST (link)What? Conservatives thinking it’s important to find out if people are guilty or not before you let them rot for years in prisons? Releasing people from Gitmo? It sure would have been nice to show a little more respect to these uncharged, innocent detainees years ago, instead of trusting in a system that locks these guys up without recourse, but I guess it’s better late than never. I mean, they only lost, what, 6 or 7 years of their lives?
RobW, I don't think many conservatives have ever been against freeing the KNOWN innocent
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Monday, March 30th at 6:26PM EST (link)and I still do not favor the right of detainees designated as enemy combatents by the president to be freed by civil courts before the war is over.
Of course, Bush released over 500 detainees from Gitmo, some of whom were found to be innocent.
The issue at hand is what of admitted innocents whose home country will not take them back? I say that we should release them here unless they pose a likely threat.
Of course, we kill innocents in war and they lose much more than 6-7 years of their lives but in war, we allow for this because it is vital that we prevail.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
RobW
streiff (Diary) Monday, March 30th at 7:23PM EST (link)They should have lost a lot more. These people were captured under arms and they were not part of any military recognizable under the Geneva Conventions. Our mistake was not court-martialling and shooting them.. There is ample precedent.
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