Originally published by Mike “gamecock” DeVine, in Examiner.com
Last August, Osama bin Laden’s former driver was sentenced to just five and a half years in prison for providing material support for Al Qaeda in the first trial of a terror suspect by a Special Military Commission (SMC) at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Salim Hamdan, who could have received 30 years to life, appeared healthy in his open trial (see artist’s depiction). Instead, he was acquitted of conspiracy by the six military officers that served as the jury, even though he chauffeured OBL after learning AQ was involved in terrorism.
Given the above, I was a bit surprised that J.C. Tuccille’s “Courts torn over Guantanamo torture” suggests that the first military tribunals convened since World War II lack credibility.
The Examiner.com column cites three legal rulings, two of which were resolved in favor of Gitmo detainees and an ACLU Freedom of Information Act fishing expedition as justification for concern.
One judge refused to instruct an SMC jury to accept a narrow definition of torture requested by the prosecution and another SMC judge threw out a confession due to “mental” torture.
President-Elect Obama may not have to grant terrorists “OJ trials” in the United States after all, even he still insists he will he will.
The rules are working, and even public defenders of accused criminals admit it. Some on the left seem to always seek opportunities to pass new laws when old ones are violated. Murder has been illegal since soon after Cain slew Abel, but we don’t re-write murder laws after every homicide.
No, we prosecute defendants.
In the other case, the ACLU was denied access to unredacted transcripts of the Combatant Status Review Tribunals (CSRT) of 14 prisoners now held at Gitmo who claim abuse and torture while in CIA custody. That ruling was correct on at least two grounds:
1) The prisoners can testify at their own trials concerning alleged mistreatment, and so, the information sought would be repetitive; and
2) The U.S. Supreme Court has already upheld the CSRT procedures and the right of the President, in accordance with millennia of war law, to determine the identity of enemies of the United States and to hold them until the cessation of hostilities, if captured.
One might argue, after the fact, that the Hamdan case was redundant given the power to detain even legal POWs, much less illegal enemy combatants like him, indefinitely until the war ends. One might also argue that only cases that seek to administer capital punishment need be tried.
But that ignores the increasing possibility, especially given the success of the Surge in Iraq, and the lack of any successful attacks on America soil since September 11, 2001, that we will win the war. In that event, we surely wouldn’t want to have to release terrorists guilty of war crimes up to and including Osama bin Laden, should he be captured. Hence, the need for military tribunals to protect us from war criminals.
One thing this War on Terror has re-affirmed is the history of the United States as unique in its humanity in the conduct of war. Unlike our enemies who kill and torture innocents as a matter of policy, the United States punishes its own for misconduct well short of traditional definitions of painful inflictions of permanent injury.
For instance, the members of the rogue National Guard unit that “degraded” inmates at Abu Ghraib, are themselves serving jail sentences. There is no evidence of systemic torture carried out by the United States armed forces.
We honor our veterans today, and especially here at the Charlotte Examiner, those from the Army at Fort Bragg and the Marines at Camp Lejune here in NC, that have been instrumental in keeping us safe since 911.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns.
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Neil Stevens
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I would love to be on a jury that is trying a terrorist from Gitmo...
izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, November 11th at 3:57PM EST (link)…and sentence them to life in one of our lovely maximum security prisons with friendly inmates and nice guards. They will wish they were back in Gitmo.
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
I would love to be on the jury and be the....
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Tuesday, November 11th at 3:59PM EST (link)executioner!
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Two problems with trials
Kyle-MI (Diary) Tuesday, November 11th at 4:24PM EST (link)Release of sensitive information. This was the problem with the trial of the blind cleric involved in the first bombing of the World Trade Center. A.Q. found out that we could listen in on their cell phones and so we lost that source.
What to do with ‘innocent’ terrorists. The example of this is the Chinese Muslims caught training with A.Q. in Afghanistan. They were found innocent but China won’t take them back (and I can’t blame China), so they are set to be released into the U.S. A lot of the people in Gitmo were captured on the battlefield. Our soldiers were fighting for their lives and didn’t know that they were suppose to be following the rules for police capturing criminals. There will be plenty of slick ACLU lawyers defending these guys even though they are as guilty as h*. What is going to happen when our courts find them ‘innocent’ but Afghanistan won’t take them back? The whole situation is foolishness on stilts. These guys could never get a visa to enter the U.S. and now we will be releasing them into our country precisely because they are suspected terrorist!
One month in the Pen...And they will be Begging to go back to the Breakfast Club
speciallist (Diary) Tuesday, November 11th at 7:47PM EST (link)LOL - Club Gitmo - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, November 11th at 10:45PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
exactly right Kyle - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, November 11th at 10:45PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
A break from the stresses of Jihad...
speciallist (Diary) Tuesday, November 11th at 10:48PM EST (link)hat/tip Rush
I would say that if Obama wants to bring KSM and others to the USA for trial
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, November 11th at 10:51PM EST (link)that he agrees to be the custodial probation agent for any that are acquitted.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I'd ship GITMO detainees overseas
GregInFla (Diary) Wednesday, November 12th at 12:16AM EST (link)before January 20th. Release them all quietly to Iraqi and Afghani prison systems. Let the cells be empty when The One goes to Gitmo for the closing ceremony. That’ll be one fine surprise!
– A true evolutionist would let endangered species die off. Think about it.
– The sign outside the courthouse said no signs allowed. So I took it down.
– Atlas Shrugged is now on the non-fiction aisle at Amazon.
perfect idea - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, November 12th at 7:29AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Trials and holding prisoners yes...
MikeLaughead Wednesday, November 12th at 9:26AM EST (link)… torture no. I am not even going to try to figure out the best way for our country to go about holding trials and detaining suspects in the war on terror. But I do want to say that I think torture is both immoral and not very useful. Is it not true that just talking to prisoners day after day gets more useful info than torturing their bodies and minds? I’ve heard that the torture is great at getting false confessions, but not necessarily the truth.
The definition of torture has been watered down
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, November 12th at 12:36PM EST (link)That is the problem. “Degrade” is not torture. Torture the “mind”? Please.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Yes!!
speciallist (Diary) Wednesday, November 12th at 12:46PM EST (link)Money….comment of the Day!
“The definition of torture has been watered down..”
LOL
This war is definately different
BamaID Wednesday, November 12th at 9:30PM EST (link)This war definitely shows how much America has changed. If that change is for the better is up for discussion. In past conflicts, the detainees at Guantanamo would have been left dead on the battlefield. We would have never worried about capturing prisoners such as these. Now, we’re caught in a Catch-22. If we ever release the 250 or so left in Gitmo, we’ll likely hear from them again. However, how do you convict a guy who was “just doing his job”, as some see it, of a federal crime (not to mention what jurisdiction do we have to try foreign nationals of crimes committed in foreign nations)? We can’t just “disappear” them. That would be too obvious and the lead story in every newspaper world-wide. In retrospect, I don’t know what intel we may have gotten from these detainees, but I hope it was worth the mess we’re in. Personally, although I’ve been behind my President all the way in this war, I’m starting to think we should have left them on the battlefield.
We should have left them on the battlefield
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, November 12th at 9:44PM EST (link)And that is where most of them are ending up now.
The next few months should see no more Gitmo prisoners arriving.
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
Thanks GC
GregInFla (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 12:25AM EST (link)Now, we need to get this idea to SecDef Gates.
– A true evolutionist would let endangered species die off. Think about it.
– The sign outside the courthouse said no signs allowed. So I took it down.
– Atlas Shrugged is now on the non-fiction aisle at Amazon.
Next they'll be your neighbors
Tim E Thursday, November 13th at 8:43AM EST (link)After putting some of these terrorists on trial, and finding them not guilty through some loophole, the government will be making them citizens of the USA. What grounds would we have of deporting them, if they’re found not guilty.
These are POW’s. Prisoners of WAR, not criminals. Treat them as such.
Even under Geneva they are not POWs
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 8:51AM EST (link)One of the main reasons Geneva was passed was to make distinctions between soldiers for a nation and illegal enemy combatants that operated among civilians, so as to discourage terror.
They are being treated like many POWs however, as they are being held until hostilities cease and those guilty of war crimes are being tried for same.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Well, we did get info that saved lives from many-nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 8:52AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
You are exactly right Mike
Jack_Savage (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 9:10AM EST (link)And this is one of the things that really makes me mad as hell – when Obama spews that he will close Gitmo and “abide by the Geneva convention”, he implies that Bush has NOT been doing so, which is patently a crock of crap.
We have been letting them get by with this for so long that we have simply given up correcting them.
But what's the point?
MikeLaughead Thursday, November 13th at 9:37AM EST (link)What I’m saying is what is the point of the torture or degradation at all, unless is gets clear intelligence? From what I understand (I’m no expert), torture or degradation is good at getting FALSE confessions, but not good intelligence. I don’t think questioning detainees and holding them for that purpose is a bad thing, but physically hurting them or trying to drive them crazy just seems sadistic, not productive. Does anyone know more than me about the subject that can tell me why torturing/degrading works better than simple continued questioning?
Hamdam is still in custody
RobW (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 4:27PM EST (link)And he could be held indefinitely, since a “War Against Terror” does not have an end. I agree that it seems justice was done during the tribunal, but if you’re trying somebody with no intention of letting them go, that’s not justice.
Yes it is justice. He will be realeased when hostilities cease or when
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 7:27PM EST (link)we determine he is no longer a threat to the US, whichever is sooner.
Had he gotten a longer sentence and hostilities ceased before his sentence, then he would have to serve the remainder of the sentence for war crime.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
It might be safety (which I doubt). It's not justice
RobW (Diary) Tuesday, November 18th at 12:56PM EST (link)Justice is getting what you deserve. The tribunal said that Hamdam deserved to serve a sentence that will end quite soon.
Holding someone past when they deserve because of ongoing hostilities or a threat to the country might be necessary, but it’s not justice. It’s unfortunate that it has to happen, but even in the rare case that it’s warranted (and I think in this case it’s not), it’s not about fairness or the prisoner getting what they deserve.
What is unfair about holding pow's until the war they chose to wage is over?
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, November 18th at 11:37PM EST (link)And charging them with war crimes and having them serve that sentence?
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Not sure that I know a better result.
dbecraft Tuesday, November 18th at 11:46PM EST (link)Actually, I know of no better outcome than holding those that would destroy us. It may be a question, but if they are actually caught in the act, don’t you think that they are culpable?
If not, I would gladly release them in your neighborhood…
Actually, just what would you do with these fellows (using nice term here) ?
Formally known as Deagle… “Golf is a way of life…”
You know, I actually feel sorry for you...
dbecraft Tuesday, November 18th at 11:54PM EST (link)You are the type that would welcome the terrorist into your household and then complain about them killing your wife and children.
Hey, but that’s okay, because you will be justified in that you did not kill another human being…! Geez, can’t you stupid people ever get educated – even by actions of others…
Formally known as Deagle… “Golf is a way of life…”
amen links course denizen - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, November 19th at 9:56PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I might have gotten us slightly off topic
RobW (Diary) Thursday, November 20th at 11:27AM EST (link)Mike, the point of your original post was that the tribunals are fair and credible, and that we should stop our whining when we say they’re not working.
I agree that it looks like the tribunals have been pretty fair.
But if the Pentagon can ignore the tribunals, the tribunals aren’t credible. They don’t mean anything. No matter what the tribunals do, the Pentagon is apparently not bound by what they say. “The system” doesn’t work if the part in charge of deciding how long detainees are held can’t decide how long detainees are held.
Do you honestly believe that these courts mean anything if they can be entirely ignored?
We can argue about whether it’s safe to let this guy out, or whether it makes sense to wait for a “cessation of hostilities” that history tells us will never come. But if a military tribunal has as little say in sentencing as you or I do, you are absolutely wrong when you say that the tribunal system is working. If Hamdam spends more time in jail, it’s not.