The Horserace for October 20, 2011


It’s a turning point on the campaign trail. No one has knocked Herman Cain from his perch yet, but there is a growing consensus among both Democrat and Republican consultants that this is still a race between Mitt Romney and Rick Perry.

Why aren’t they taking Herman Cain seriously? Why is this a Romney v. Perry race? And what about Michele Bachman? Intentional or not, she seems ready to embrace the role of spoiler for Mitt Romney.

Conservatives are starting to get antsy. Consolidation of the field is not happening. And things are starting to get ugly. Will Newt be the next guy to try to consolidate the field? We’ll get into it all in this week’s Horserace.

Michele Bachmann

Michele Bachmann is stuck. Out of money and mostly out of time, she has to do something and it seems more and more what she has decided is to play the spoiler for Mitt Romney and hope he pays off her campaign debts like he did for Tim Pawlenty. At least a lot of conservatives are whispering that to each other solely by being perplexed by these last two debates.

Two debates ago, Bachmann got a super softball question from Mitt Romney designed to give her a lifeline, keep her in the race, and prevent consolidation.

In this week’s CNN debate, Bachmann returned the favor. As Santorum, Perry, and Gingrich were piling up on Romney, Michele Bachmann jumps in, redirects the conversation to Obamacare, and shut down the one attack on Mitt Romney conservatives have finally been gearing up for. Intentional or not, the number of angry emails fired off between conservatives that night over Bachmann’s redirect does not help her.

I don’t see a path to victory for her right now. Her staying in the race keeps consolidation from happening against Romney, which is why he wants her in.

Herman Cain

In the lead and in the spotlight, Herman continues to shine as the most optimist candidate, but there is trouble on the horizon. Neither Democrat nor Republican consultants bank on Herman winning. Why? He has no operational structure in Florida, Iowa, or pretty much anywhere else and has only three months to get a well oiled machine in place. He’s running a national campaign convinced that his charisma, energy, and message will get people out in the early states as he builds momentum. Conventional wisdom holds that such a strategy does not work. But then Herman has been defying conventional wisdom.

Last night, on Piers Morgan, Herman gave a muddled message on abortion issues that, before sun up, had spread far and wide among pro-life groups, many of which were gearing up to rally to him. Look, I know Herman is pro-life. And I don’t doubt his conviction. But that’s because I know him personally. I also know at least one pro-life group by mid-morning this morning was in serious conversation about his statements last night and they want some clarity consistent with a statement he gave earlier in the week.

Here is the media narrative shaping up on Herman. He is going to have to avoid playing to it in the way Michele Bachmann played straight into the “diva” narrative the media set for her. The narrative is that Herman wants it both ways. He says X and then says Y and then, when pressed, says he misunderstood, is not afraid to say he did not know, or tries to reconcile the positions. He’s going to have to be clearer and more decisive to hold on to a lead many think he can’t.

Newt Gingrich

Gingrich may be starting to see a path to victory. I am starting to see one for him, but it depends on taking out Herman Cain. Voters are starting to flirt with Newt. As Herman’s image gets tarnished a bit over 999 and now this abortion matter, conservative voters are taking another look at Newt. They’ll either go to him or probably back to Perry if Perry’s reboot goes well.

Newt, in fact, does not have to directly take on Herman by attacking Herman. He can just contrast himself brightly. Voters are going to take a look as they become skittish of a national sales tax.

But Newt is not raising the money to pave a path to victory and it could be all for nothing.

Jon Huntsman

Jon who?

Ron Paul

Ron Paul will not be the nominee.

Rick Perry

Perry’s debate performance keeps him in the game, but Mitt overplaying his hand post debate by pushing out the “Perry is angry” stuff and the “Perry is stupid” video helped Perry more than anything.

He’s getting a second bite at the apple. He cannot afford to screw up again with a bad debate performance. The Romney guns are coming fast because Perry is the only guy with the ground organization and money to compete against Romney. The Romney team knows that if consolidation happens, it will be to Perry’s advantage unless they can take him out early.

Perry will unveil his flat tax proposal very, very soon. I’ve seen a preview. It is a beautiful tax plan that brings simplification to a disastrous system and is not regressive. But the question remains, can Perry sell his plan?

Mitt Romney

Mitt Romney is still the front runner. Why not just use the polls and say it is Herman? Because Mitt Romney has the money, team, and game to win this thing if consolidation does not happen. And Team Romney knows it.

But I wonder if the Romney campaign’s overreaction to last night’s debate was their tell that they know they have real problems. Romney bled after last night. His unforced errors are already showing up in the media and his opponents’ media.

And now the others know how to throw him off his game. Gang up on Romney and he not only lashes out, but he also swallows his foot. The CNN debate could, long term, keep doing damage to Romney. For now at least, it keeps GOP primary voters from settling for Romney. The inevitability meme his campaign has been generating just isn’t working right now. Conservative voters do not trust him.

Rick Santorum

Santorum will not be the nominee.


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398 Comments Leave a comment

Anybody but Romney

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 12:12PM EST (link)

and I will be happy. My preferred candidate is Perry because of his experience and record of positive results.

Al Gore

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:19PM EST (link)

Perry’s previous connection to Al Gore will do him in.

Reagon was a democrat at one time

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 12:21PM EST (link)

Even Reagan was a democrat at one time, that is plain silly using the gore non-sense

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


Ronnie

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:23PM EST (link)

But Reagan handled that issue much better than Perry.

Gore was still acting as a blue dog when Perry worked for him...

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:35PM EST (link)

Or have we all forgotten that the Parental Advisory labels on CDs came from none other than Tipper Gore?

I don’t see this as a problem for Perry.

Mew

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self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

"But Reagan handled that issue much better than Perry."

rec0n Thursday, October 20th at 5:04PM EST (link)

There *is* no issue. Perry endorsed Gore 20+ years ago. This has zero relevance to the issues of the day.

He has categorically condemned not only man-made global warming but Al Gore.

Gore is an argument made by those who don’t have one.

So long ago, Gore was probably even still pro-life back then!

ladydoc Friday, October 21st at 5:15AM EST (link)

Why that was so long ago, it might even have been before Gore sold out and abandoned his pro-life principles!…

 
 

Perry...

msjallen Thursday, October 20th at 10:55PM EST (link)

is handling it just fine. Stop repeating stupidity regarding Perry being a former Demo. Try to remember they weren’t THAT bad back then compared to now. I know MANY wonderful people who use to be Demos until they changed to the GOP.

 
 

As long as he's a staunch conservative now,

txindependent Thursday, October 20th at 12:25PM EST (link)

and has been for a long time, with a proven record, that Gore nonsense might help him a bit in the general if independents think ‘he can’t be too far right’. The general is important too.

Stauch conservative??????

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:31PM EST (link)

Where is he on illegal immgration? Remember what Bush and McCain tried to pull off in the dark of night!

Did you seriously look at Perry's positions, devies?

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:37PM EST (link)

If so you’d notice that he’s used Texas money to set up a Texas Rangers naval unit (brownwater) to enforce the border along the Rio Grande and on Lake Falcon.

Your innuendo is without merit.

Mew

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self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Is RickPerry.org his official site?

Common_Cents (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:43PM EST (link)

Where are all his positions and plans in writing? He better get on it. This site is extremely light.

Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from, behind, the Back Nine.
Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.

perry's site

irishgirl Thursday, October 20th at 2:37PM EST (link)

I know what you mean about Perry’s site. You really have to dig around, but once you do, then you see the jobs plan. But it needs to be easier to find.

 
 

In State Tuition

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:47PM EST (link)

Ring a bell?

Do you know anything about the instate tuition thing.

gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:54PM EST (link)

Or are you just going with what the left says.
Do you know anything about Perrys views on illegal immigration.

They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.

We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway

Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved

 

Okay, deives, but understand that this is...

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:06PM EST (link)

only because I misspelled your name earlier.

Like it or not, the U.S. courts have found that States are obligated to provide a K-12 education for kids who are here illegally.

Like it or not, the U.S. courts have found that, if someone here illegally has paid taxes, they are entitled to the benefits of those taxes, same as any legally born or naturalized citizen.

Texas has no income tax. Therefore, any illegal who has been in Texas for three years has paid both sales taxes and property taxes, even if only via their rent.

There are, therefore, and whether you like it or not, legal grounds for an illegal to sue the State of Texas and demand in-state tuition.

What Perry did was to make it harder for illegals to get the in-state rate than for an Okie to get it – the Okie just has to be in Texas for a year, the illegals must be in Texas for 3 years.

Do please try to respond with more than a bumper-sticker next time, okay?

Mew

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self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Well said and I've wondered if

tyman Thursday, October 20th at 1:51PM EST (link)

all of the people who think the in-state tuition is a magnet have ever thought about K-12 education being the real magnet.

I’m pretty sure illegals don’t come here for the free education; in fact, I think most are running for their lives.

I think it was Mark Steyn, filling in for Rush yesterday, who said (rather stupidly, I thought) that the illegal could get in-state tuition in Texas whereas the person in Nebraska couldn’t. Well, duh. Just like the Nebraskan can’t get in-state tuition in the other 48 states.

Perry has already said he NEVER do this on a Federal level.

I'm surprised how few people realize, tyman...

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:02PM EST (link)

that living in one State does not automatically grant the in-state rate in another State. There’s no reciprocity in the college tuition game.

Mew

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self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

Romney brought up the "magnet"

balloonjuice Thursday, October 20th at 3:26PM EST (link)

But then shot himself in the foot if Perry had been quick enough to recognize it. Romney pointed out that illegals are not coming into CA at the same rate — and yet CA does have the same kind of in-state tuition allowance for the children of illegals that Texas does. In fact, the main difference is that it is easier for them to get the in-state rate in CA.

Now if in-state tuition were such a magnet, it would be for CA as well as for TX. The truth is that a child has to have lived in-state for a period of three years and otherwise qualify for a state school (gpa, etc). It is not a magnet as such. While there are Texans who disagree with this law, it is a well thought-out law and passed the Texas legislature overwhelmingly in 2001.

It should be pointed out that there are numerous (I don’t know the exact number) other states that also offer in-state tuition to the children of illegals.

 
 

Heh...

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 2:09PM EST (link)

So they can get college degrees to work at jobs that they can’t legally work at?

He should’ve just waited for an illegal to sue.

 
 
 

Newt and Herman

itsmeyask Friday, October 21st at 11:49AM EST (link)

We are at a point in Time that allows us the capacity to Manuver and place Humility, Self discipline & control, Integrity, Determined, and Outcome oriented Individauls too Restore, Renew, and Rebuild the foundations that are proven to consistenly bring Prosperity… Let us not limit ourselves through compromising what is true, let us settle only for the Best. Qaulities exemplified by whom?

 
 

He is strong about illegal immigration.

txindependent Thursday, October 20th at 12:40PM EST (link)

If you are talking about that fence business, it is unpractical to build a fence over that vast distance; over rivers, and national parks. It would take years and billions of dollars. By the time it was built all the illegals who wanted to come over would be here. It is a ‘feel good’ solution but not the best solution.

Oh Really?!?

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:49PM EST (link)

His responses to granting in state tuition to illegal’s just doesn’t cut with me.

Keep commenting

Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:55PM EST (link)

The dumber you look, the better Perry looks by comparison.

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

 

Go learn something on the issue

evilleramsfan Thursday, October 20th at 1:23PM EST (link)

before spouting off….

“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett

 

I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it.

radicalrighty Friday, October 21st at 6:35AM EST (link)

Every post by you in the last 2 days has been anti-Perry, pro-Romney, or both.

I get it – you’re for Romney.

Oh, and you are also for Romney.

 
 

Perry is strong on the border, but not on amnesty

Brookhaven (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:59PM EST (link)

Perry, imho, gave a great answer on locking down the border in the last debate. If he keeps that up, I think he could make that a strong point of his campaign.

But on the other side of the illegal immigration coin–amnesty–he still has problems. His support to tuition leaves voters with the impression that he’d be soft on amnest. He needs to clarify:

Would he take steps that prevented states from using e-verify (as is being done in a back door way now in a proposed hosue bill)?

Would he intererfere with states enforcing immigration law (like AZ, AL, & GA are doing).

Would he enforce the immigration laws on the books, or ignore them (as the Obama admin is doing).

Would he create a path to citizenship for illegals immigrants (a deal killer with many conservatives).

He’s got to clarify these points to get past his illegal immigration roadblock.

Um, Governors can't give amnesty on federal immigration law

Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:01PM EST (link)

Oops?

You might try getting your issues straight before commenting. You know, like Herman Cain never does.

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

Deliberatly missing the point isn't going to help Perry

Brookhaven (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:19PM EST (link)

The in-state tuition gives the impression he, as president, would be soft on things like amnesty (just as George Bush was). That is what’s costing him.

Until he clarifies what he would do on those issues, people are going to assume he would be soft on those issues like Bush was.

Perry has said he'd never

tyman Thursday, October 20th at 2:22PM EST (link)

support in-state tuition on a Federal level.

How amnesty and in-state tuition are similar is beyond me.

So the state of Texas just keeps making Federally mandated wellfare payments in perpetuity? They tried to do something to help break this cycle.

Personally (and I’ve said this before), I’m sick of my tax dollars going to lazy Americans. I like this no better than supporting illegals, but many illegals have a stronger work ethic than the American parasites.

 

Bush

supergirl2911 Thursday, October 20th at 9:57PM EST (link)

My problem with bush was not immigration but spending and education interference

 
 
 

Governor Rick Perry on the Report of a New Amnesty Plan for Illegals

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:09PM EST (link)

Governor Rick Perry on the Report of a New Amnesty Plan for Illegals

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

 

Well, since Perry supported Arizona's law and

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 5:26PM EST (link)

was against the federal lawsuit against it, he probably would not “interfere with states enforcing immigration law”. And, since he sent National Guard troops and the Texas Rangers to defend the border, your worries are groundless. Now, if you would spread these truths instead of silly suppositions, you might also enlighten other potential conservative voters.

dittos

cacharlie Friday, October 21st at 9:02AM EST (link)

Thanks, daveinsanantonio – conservatives must focus on facts instead of feeding liberal frenzy.

 
 
 

Give me a break

andysmith (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:47PM EST (link)

It only took 15 years to build the Great Wall of China. This was back around 200 BC. If we can’t complete the border fence in under 15 years without as much ground to cover as China did back then, then we’re in a sad state of affiars.

“Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. ”
“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives. ”
“Governments tend not to solve problems, only to rearrange them.”

-The great Ronald Reagan
www.rightreality.wordpress.com

The Great Wall of China line

paladin1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 9:09PM EST (link)

was used on talk radio this morning here in Dallas. The host, like you, neglected to allow for the vast number of slave labor Chinese and conquered peoples who were pressed into the endeavor. This is a nonsensical and specious argument.

“I will work every day to make Washington, DC as inconsequential in your life as I can.”

Governor Rick Perry, Texas

And now he brings the fight back home to Texas. What a man of class! 01/19/12

Yeah, and it took a LOT longer than 15 years.

tyman Thursday, October 20th at 9:32PM EST (link)

There was a section of the great wall that took 14 years, but the wall as we know took CENTURIES to build.

Mark Steyn got that wrong yesterday on Rush’s show and I was embarrassed for him because he used it as a slam at Perry’s claim that the border fence would take 15 years to build.

And the wall was breached because the Mongols bribed the guards.

If the Chinese had our technology back then, they probably wouldn’t have built a wall either.

 
 

Sad is it?

txpat Thursday, October 20th at 10:49PM EST (link)

What about the people who on the land that they want to put the fence on?
What about the landowners right to not have it on his land?
I seem to recall some folks who didn’t appreciate the plans of the government when they started putting fencing up before.
Isn’t that just as bad as the goverment telling a state you are going to have to store nuclear waste?

Kind of like...

bloodshy Friday, October 21st at 6:33PM EST (link)

Perry’s repeated effort to create a toll road over hundreds of miles of private land? (And he tried for it four separate times) Yea, eminent domain was NOT a reason Perry is against the fence.

 
 

Moon vs. Fence

GR Friday, October 21st at 1:53PM EST (link)

From the time that Kennedy announced we were going to the moon, it took less than 10 years, Perry claims we can’t build a fence in under 15 years! I guess going to the moon was easier than building a fence according to Perry! You have got to be kidding me!

 
 

Actually...

dbkohl Friday, October 21st at 1:05PM EST (link)

It is practical in many areas. There are significant portions of California, Arizona and New Mexico already fenced. Some areas are so remote that it is too treacherous to efficiently cross, less fencing there, other measures could be implemented. Also, the Rio Grande would be difficult to fence up. However, urban and mildly populated areas with road access should be fenced in. You are right in that a solid fence on the entire border is no more a magic bullet than the mythical single cure for cancer. However… there are many successful treatments for many types of cancer and there are many border solutions for the many types of terrain along the border.

 
 
 
 

Perry is FAR from being anywhere close to Reagan

andysmith (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:39PM EST (link)

Not like that needs to be said or anything.

“Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. ”
“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives. ”
“Governments tend not to solve problems, only to rearrange them.”

-The great Ronald Reagan
www.rightreality.wordpress.com

 
 

Perry can use Gore to his favor

Spartan4Life (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:08PM EST (link)

Gore was posing as a conservative dem at the time. That was before everyone figured out that there is no such thing.

All Perry has to say is that there was a time that you could be a moderate or even a conservative and be in the democrat party. But once he figured out that the left wing had taken over he did the smart thing and went where his conservative views were welcome. He comes across as being reasonable and marginalizes the dems. Voila!

good point

timkellogg Friday, October 21st at 1:18AM EST (link)

Trouble is, every good point Perry should make seems to get made by somebody besides Perry

 

His comment to Cooper

center77 (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 2:59AM EST (link)

was very Reagan Like. He said you get to ask the question, I get to answer them how I want to.

My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
http://www.timothy-bladel.com/
I’m a proud supporter of Rick Perry. God Bless everyone.

“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewll adress (January 11, 1989)

 
 

But Gore praising Romney's environmental record

politicalgal1 Thursday, October 20th at 3:12PM EST (link)

says it all

 

So..What About Reagan

carolynr Thursday, October 20th at 4:23PM EST (link)

Before people blog…read Gore’s platform. I don’t like the man (Gore) but as a Southern Democrat from Tennessee he ran on family values and the 2nd amendment. He lost to DeKakis (sp).

Perry on the other hand is still…for 2nd amendment right, family values and pro-life. It was after that campaign that Perry switched to the Republican Party…much like Reagan did. You did know tht Reagan was a Democrat at one time…right.

 

Romney to the left of Al Gore.

texanlady Thursday, October 20th at 4:28PM EST (link)

Texas was a yellow dog democrat state when Perry supported Gore. Gore was a conservative southern senator. He was no Dukakis. Romney is more like Dukakis.

 

You are so wrong I hope

leehazel Thursday, October 20th at 6:19PM EST (link)

Perry’s time on the ALGORIAN bandwagon was a long time ago. It is not dissimilar from Ronald Reagan’s time with the Screen Actors Guild.
Trying to hang these kind of background items on today’s neck like an albatross is just plain silly.

 

Look on the bright side...

msjallen Thursday, October 20th at 11:21PM EST (link)

at least he knows how the Demos think! Reagan had that ability too and took advantage of it. So will Perry

 

Reagan threw his open support beind Truman

LibertyWins (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 2:21AM EST (link)

and supported FDR. Reagan by all measures was a Truman/FDR liberal yet he evolved and became the man we all love as the Conservative Icon for well more than a generation.
Would you expect this Democrat,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJDhS4oUm0M
would become this Republican?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY

Rick Perry was a Democrat in heavily Democrat Texas. He was a conservative Democrat supporting a then Conservative Democrat name Albert Gore, Jr. Remember Gore shifted to his super-liberal form during the 1990s. Rick Perry just morphed from a conservative Democrat to a Conservative Republican. Is he perfect? No! Is he better than Mitt Romney, his only viable long-run rival? Yes, by a long shot!

Rick Perry played a hard gamble, he will either soar to victory or free-fall into the ground. Only time will tell.

Liberty without Virtue is Slavery to Vice

 

Gore's a nonstarter

cacharlie Friday, October 21st at 8:53AM EST (link)

Jindal is the gauge for Perry.

 
 

This is obnoxious Perry-boting

jackdaniels11 Thursday, October 20th at 12:36PM EST (link)

We’ve all heard what you have to say. It is not terribly substantial. You don’t want Mitt Romney to get the nomination.

Fine, neither does Obama. You should call him and ask him if there is anything else you can do to re-elect him.

Cain does not have the money to compete nationwide. This diary makes that clear.

Cain himself says that he has “hundreds of thousands” to spend on the race. What? “hundreds of thousands” in a race where his two biggest competitors, Romney and Perry, have several million?

Cain would be the most unelectable Republican to ever top a ticket assuming that Republicans are dumb enough to pick him.

Perry would fare just as poorly. Fairly or not, the media has dubbed him “this year’s dunce” (which is totally unfair if you’ve listened to many of Cain’s soundbytes). As candidates like Bachmann, Gingrich. and Cain drop out of the race, do you expect them to endorse Perry or Romney?

Also, is it a coincidence that while Romney has been locking up endorsements like Gov. Chris Christie in New Jersey, Gov. Butch Otter in Idaho, Gov. Dave Heineman in Nebraska and Ag Commish Adam Putnam in Florida, Perry has yet to gain a single endorsement since his debate fiasco in late September?

Republicans are very reluctant to throw their endorsement at a candidate who hasn’t proven that he can hold his own in the polls.

The rise of Cain is directly attributable to Perry’s embarrassing debate performances. Republicans who aren’t comfortable with an LDS nominee are hoping that anyone, even a yellow dog, can get enough support to deny Romney the nomination that he, more than anyone else, has earned.

Stop helping Obama. Let’s send that bad actor home to Chicago.

Chicago doesn't want Obama back.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:39PM EST (link)

And as I’ve said repeatedly, my dislike for Romney has nothing to do with his mormonism. Please don’t start that again.

Mew

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self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

What about Ann Coulter's theory?

tailfins1959 Thursday, October 20th at 12:51PM EST (link)

A Republican with a liberal legislature is as liberal as he will ever get and a Republican with a conservative legislature is as conservative as he will get. This describes both Perry and Romney. What do you say to those of us that believe either would be an acceptable nominee?

You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf

Ann who?

APA Guy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:09PM EST (link)

Indeed, APA Guy.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:53PM EST (link)

I’ll give a more complete answer, but .. a conservative legislature is not sufficient to reign in a liberal executive. Bill Clinton vs. Newt Gingrich shows the limits there quite well.

As for Romney, even during the debates he’s come across as a tinkerer, a guy who’s going to try to get the machinery of government running more smoothly. Look at his answers, he sounds a lot – to this cat – like Jimmy Carter. Wonk-y.

I don’t have confidence that Romney is going to be the guy to tear out whole sections of government that add no value and exist only to waste money.

I’ve done a sample tear-down on the Department of Transportation (if you google around Red State, you can probably still find it) and am looking for a candidate who’s not afraid to think that way. Get rid of entire departments that don’t work.

I don’t see that skill set in Romney’s jacket.

Mew

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self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

And Perry hates federal agencies

cbartlett Thursday, October 20th at 5:34PM EST (link)

He has been fighting the EPA and Dept of Energy in Texas for years. He could probably be talked into getting rid of HUD, Dept of Education and maybe the IRS along with them. Obama has been punishing Texas with these rogue agencies since the day he entered office. The ridiculous regulations coming out of these agencies are killing our business and thousands of others and there is NO recourse – no appeal to reasonable evaluate or judge the validity of many of these regulations. The Executive branch has become the lawmaker and judge and jury. Perry wants to get everything possible back to the states. I’m ready to vote for him on that one issue alone.

“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” Abraham Lincoln

 
 

Coulter doesn't care about Amendment #2, either

timkellogg Friday, October 21st at 1:26AM EST (link)

…and even if we accept her idea that Romney doesn’t get any more liberal than he did in MA, he was WAY TOO LIBERAL, so that’s plenty.

 
 

Ann who?

APA Guy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:09PM EST (link)
 
 

Obama

texanlady Thursday, October 20th at 4:29PM EST (link)

Obama is starting to want Romney because of his ties to Wall St and the banking system.

I agree

timkellogg Friday, October 21st at 1:30AM EST (link)

wholeheartedly, and I’ll bet that, even though other Republican candidates are afraid to for some reason, Obama’s campaign will bring up how, if he thinks Obamacare is so bad, why did his people help plan it and why did he say (though he did try to hide that he did) that he thought the whole country should have the MA plan?

 
 

You sound like a liberal

msbs05 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:51PM EST (link)

which I guess is why you support Romney. Your statement “Republicans who aren’t comfortable with an LDS nominee are hoping that anyone, even a yellow dog, can get enough support to deny Romney the nomination” is just like the unfair race-baiting of the left. I dont care about Romney’s religion (defending myself here feels like having to defend teaparty over racism) it is Romney’s own liberal positions that is the problem. He is clearly not concerned with the constitution and its 2nd amendment, because he made it harder to get a gun while Gov in MA, quadrupling the fees and vowing to never allow a “chipping away” of tough laws on gun ownership. I want someone who defends the constutional rights of gun owners and would fight to roll back the overreach in states like MA, NJ, and IL using his DOJ. Romney donated to Planned Parenthood and has told multiple story about when he changed pro-life and why, so is lying at least about why, if not that he even changed. He would never support a fight to stop even partial birth, which has to be stopped. Should I even go into Romneycare? So, pretending anyone that doesnt like Romney is a biggot is an unfair tactic, and blaming Perry on this subject is stupid. I was at the FRC conference in DC and heard the intro and Perry speak. I had no idea there was this issue until late that evening when I went on internet. Perry could not have known either. Perry did not pick who introduced him, and had no idea what that guy would say later to press. He said he thought statement was wrong. This is fake issue and being used by Romney and Huntsman the way all liberals play these games. You should be ashamed.

 

Perry's endorsements

erinmist (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 12:51AM EST (link)

How can you say Perry has no endorsements? Romney has his RINO establishment endorsements and Perry has the endorsements of both the governor of Utah, and the governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, a rising conservative who has way more support among conservatives than Christie can even dream about.

Michael Shea

erinmist.. don't forget Gov of NV

onemovoter (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 3:21AM EST (link)

Also endorsed Perry as well. NV is one of the early states too.

There have also been quite a few other lesser known endorsements including one from a decent ranking Iowa politician who recently endorsed Perry. I know there will be more coming. The key to it all is timing though. People usually have about a 3 week memory then things fade. Perry knows this and is building up everything towards December.

I know Romney won’t be the nominee, as others have risen in the polls to out poll Mitt each time. In 2008 he lost to McCain of all people. Now we have a good group of conservatives. Mitt just won’t win.

“Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain, and most fools do.”- Benjamin Franklin
“I don’t make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.”- Will Rogers

 
 

Agree!

GR Friday, October 21st at 2:01PM EST (link)

Your post makes absolute sense! Romney has the support as well as the money to beat Obama. We all need to get behind his candidacy, after all the biggest issue we face is beating Obama!

 
 

Hard to give a vote of confidence for the guy that whimpered to Anderson Cooper for help!

circlegranch Thursday, October 20th at 8:51PM EST (link)

Maybe Anderson should have tried to giggle Perry away.

Maybe Anderson will endorse Mitt

supergirl2911 Friday, October 21st at 1:08PM EST (link)
 
 

Cain and Romney are hurting themselves

easyb (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:13PM EST (link)

Romney got flustered and lashed out, and it reflects poorly on him.

Cain, in my opinion, has defended 999 too vaguely. He needs to tighten up his message on this, quick. His unforced error on abortion does not help him.

These two things help Perry, for now. With a decent enough debate the other night, plus some likely momentum with his tax roll out, I think he’s going to regain traction, and take points back from Cain.

Did you watch Perry's face?

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:21PM EST (link)

Perry’s attack on Romney during the debate did not help him. He came off as a bully.

Still, Perry didn't lose the debate

easyb (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:26PM EST (link)

It’s a low bar, but that’ all he had to do.

BTW, I did notice his face. I thought he would lean over and deck Romney at a couple points.

POW!

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:33PM EST (link)

I thought that too!

 

Thought v. Hoped

standingonthewall Thursday, October 20th at 2:19PM EST (link)

Dare I say, I HOPED he would deck him!

 

Believe me...

msjallen Thursday, October 20th at 11:25PM EST (link)

I wanted to deck Romney myself. Perry showed a lot of self control.

 
 

Perry's face to me

txindependent Thursday, October 20th at 12:27PM EST (link)

seemed angry but not flustered. Romney turned red and got all defensive. Haha, loved it.

But who got hurt?

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:35PM EST (link)

I think you liked seeing Mitt get flustered more than wanting to admit that to others Perry looked foolish spinning a dead story.

You RomBots crack me up.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:36PM EST (link)

Romney was begging Cooper for help because Perry was tearing him up.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Cooper "Pretty Boy" Anderson

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:42PM EST (link)

AC was a horrible moderator! What Rules?

Yes, because whining to a debate moderator is the height of Presidential behavior.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:50PM EST (link)

Romney looked like Obama in doing so.

Deal with it.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Perry clearly won that battle

iddavis Thursday, October 20th at 6:05PM EST (link)

There is no doubt Perry won…Romney got flustered and begged for Cooper to help…then the hand on the shoulder thing…very condescending and it hurt Slick Romney…he can easily be compared to Obama. On the other hand, Perry is indeed the candidate w/the most distinct contract w/Obama who is electable, has the $$$ to back him up, and has proof of being a conservative by his actions and deeds. Regarding the in-state tuition, TX allows all neighboring states to have in-state tuition in TX……….you folks need to read “Fed Up!” if you really want to get the skinny on Perry. He is by far the best candidate who is conservative, …socially and fiscally, and he’s the”common sense” conservative when it comes to the in-state tuition issue. You folks who aren’t convinced, do your homework. Don’t throw the baby out w/the bath water……….we cannot afford a RINO this time around!!

Romney needed...

msjallen Thursday, October 20th at 11:29PM EST (link)

to be called out and Perry did it. Romney is a fake and this Nation doesn’t need more of the same for 4 more years. I vote for Perry.

 
 
 
 

I think they both looked childish

Common_Cents (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:05PM EST (link)

I figured some mom in the audience would yell to put both Perry and Romney in time out.

Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from, behind, the Back Nine.
Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.

I don't recall that happening, nor should it. Politics ain't beanbag.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:13PM EST (link)

Appealing to an outside authority to come in and save them, while a common reaction of the left and schoolchildren, is not something I’m looking for in a candidate for president.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Agreed on this, too

timkellogg Friday, October 21st at 1:37AM EST (link)

But I did think they both looked bad in that exchange, and whether or not it’s “the norm” I hate when people interrupt and talk-over each other. It says, “if I let you speak your piece I’ll be unable to counter, so I have to stop you and drown you out”.

 
 

Agreed

timkellogg Friday, October 21st at 1:33AM EST (link)

OR, whack! to the backs of both of their heads…

 
 

Perry fans in denial really need to watch this GBTV clip:

domingos Thursday, October 20th at 1:47PM EST (link)

This is what the rest of the objective world saw. Even those who dont care for Romney, agree that Romney gave Perry another beat down.

http://tiny.cc/40wbz

Objective?? You must be kidding!!

iddavis Thursday, October 20th at 6:14PM EST (link)

Glen Beck tv is obviously not objective…Glen Beck is a mormon and of course will back Romney over Perry……and his fill-ins will do the same. GBTV is all about GB………he’s so into himself it’s pathetic. I much prefer the old GB…….he needs to stick to tearing down Obama and the Czars and leave the GOP debate for others with common sense on the subject. Besides, GB is also Libertarian…so he said some time ago. I don’t trust much coming from Glen these days w/regard to our GOP candidates.

I totally agree...

msjallen Thursday, October 20th at 11:31PM EST (link)

with you. I quit watching GB many months ago even before he started his own TV show.

 
 
 

RomBots? What about PerrBots?

cdthat Thursday, October 20th at 2:15PM EST (link)

You accuse anyone who doesn’t believe you that Perry won of being a RomBot, maybe it’s because you are a PerrBot. I think EE has made it very clear that he is no longer a Romney supporter even though 4 years ago he was a big reason I was ready to support Romney until he dropped out before the primary in my state.

All of you Perry supporters are making me sick to my stomach over this “red faced” Romney thing. Every one of you would get red in the face if someone accused you of something then refused to let you respond to the accusation. Every commentator outside of RedState has reported that Romney mopped the floor with Perry over the issue of immigration. But to come to RedState and read about it you would think the opposite. I didn’t see the debate, I haven’t watched the video of it so I have no first hand knowledge, but I find it very telling that the only place I can find “Perry Won” is on RedState.

I used to come here to get an open minded view of the political scene, but over the past few months it has become very clear to me that unless I am 100% behind Rick Perry I will be ridiculed or called a RomBot, PaulBot or who ever my post happens to lean toward Bot. What happened to “Be respectful, or be banned.”? The only posts I see being respected are pro Perry posts. Not a very good way to win friends and influence people.

I’m still trying to make up my mind on who to vote for, this site has become the primary reason why I will NOT support Rick Perry in the primary. Too much Perry Kool-Aid flowing from everyone starting with EE going all the way down.

I am looking for anyone to tell me why I SHOULD vote for them. Not why I SHOULDN’T vote for someone else. So far I haven’t found that candidate.

cdthat, I only accuse the RomBots of being RomBots.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:22PM EST (link)

See, I have the ability to see how long someone has been a member of RedState. I also have the ability to look at their comment history.

When a one month member who has never commented before, blasts out 14 anti-Perry/pro-Romney comments, all following a less than stellar performance by Romney in a debate, it isn’t some random conclusion to come to that he is, indeed, a RomBot.

Care to try again?

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


I made my point, you confirmed it.

cdthat Thursday, October 20th at 2:34PM EST (link)

You took one line of my multi-paragraph post and responded to it.

However you didn’t address the underlying concern that I have that bashing Romney has become the primary purpose of this site. Why don’t you try telling me why I should vote for Perry? I haven’t seen one post by EE or anyone else about why Perry would be the best man for the job. Only read about how Romney is so bad and Perry is the anti-Romney. I got that 4 months ago, I need a reason to vote FOR someone, not a laundry list of reasons NOT to vote for someone.

Thanks,

Sorry, I don't have time for people who reflexively think being against Romney means they are a bigot.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:37PM EST (link)

nt

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 

P.S. cdthat, I am not going to be lectured about being respectful by someone who believes the only reason someone would not vote for Romney is because they are an anti-Mormon bigot.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:35PM EST (link)

Time for you to climb off your high horse.

Unless you are Anti-Mormon what other reason is there to be so Anti-Romney?

Comment histories are always so revealing.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 

Come on, your mind is clearly made up.

radicalrighty Friday, October 21st at 6:55AM EST (link)

And, as you are clearly flustered with your treatment here, maybe you should do like your boy, Mitt, did, and cry for help from a moderator . . .

 
 

Perry wasn't tearing Romney up....

andysmith (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:56PM EST (link)

Perry was yelling over Romney when it was Romney’s turn to give a response. Tearing Romney up would involve something of substance, which Perry has been lacking since he announced he was running for President.
Try that in a debated with Obama, and the election is over.
Perry’s platitudes aren’t working. I know he’s going to come out with a flat tax proposal because the crap he’s been throwing against the wall isn’t sticking and the man is desperate, but it’s time to get some substance in that skull of mush of his. Maybe he can turn it around, but his behavior at the debate was pretty childish.

“Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. ”
“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives. ”
“Governments tend not to solve problems, only to rearrange them.”

-The great Ronald Reagan
www.rightreality.wordpress.com

 

Perry wasn't tearing Romney up....

andysmith (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:56PM EST (link)

Perry was yelling over Romney when it was Romney’s turn to give a response. Tearing Romney up would involve something of substance, which Perry has been lacking since he announced he was running for President.
Try that in a debated with Obama, and the election is over.
Perry’s platitudes aren’t working. I know he’s going to come out with a flat tax proposal because the crap he’s been throwing against the wall isn’t sticking and the man is desperate, but it’s time to get some substance in that skull of mush of his. Maybe he can turn it around, but his behavior at the debate was pretty childish.

“Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. ”
“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives. ”
“Governments tend not to solve problems, only to rearrange them.”

-The great Ronald Reagan
www.rightreality.wordpress.com

"it was Romney's turn"... So what? Politics ain't beanbag.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:40PM EST (link)

And debates aren’t meant to be a kindergarten class.

Whining to the moderator is the real childish act.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 

Mitt had to show passion.

jackdaniels11 Thursday, October 20th at 12:40PM EST (link)

And he did it. He held his ground when Perry tried to confront him with a Boston Globe lie. Then Perry broke the rules by interrupting Romney an’ ol’ Mitt just wasn’t havin’ it.

I’m tired of Republicans trying to sabotage Mitt. After every debate, we get the predictable “My guy won because…”

In actuality, no Republican wins when the debate is about personal attacks on other candidates and not about the issues.

Gingrich, Cain, and Romney deserve credit for trying to keep the focus on issues and off of personal attacks.

Perry shows his desperation every time he hits Romney with a personal attack.

And then Perry tried to buddy-up to Cain (“I love you, brother…”) as if Cain had not already announced that he could not support Perry even if Perry somehow got the nomination. Doesn’t Perry know when the tribe has spoken?

The 'tribe' has not spoken.

gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:48PM EST (link)

Come back to reality.
Put the bottle down.
The ‘tribe’ will speak when we have the primaries.
No sooner, no later.

They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.

We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway

Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved

 

Boston Globe Lie?

retire05 Thursday, October 20th at 1:47PM EST (link)

Clueless much?

The Globe did their investigative reports not just once, but TWICE, a year apart. Romney, as the top cop in MA, did NOTHING about a contractor working illegals on Romney’s own property.

And why aren’t you whining about how Romney tried to talk over Rick Santorum, the very thing Romney was complaining that Perry did to him?

Romney: “Anderson, save me. This hick from Texas that I have been beating up on for weeks is fighting back and showing I am a hypocrite. Stop him.”

retire05

 

Sabotage Mitt

irishgirl Thursday, October 20th at 2:47PM EST (link)

I don’t know about sabotaging Mitt, but I do know that Republicans are not the same thing as conservatives. And Mitt has a huge problem in that conservatives simply don’t trust him. (and in my opinion with good reason). And it has nothing to do with him being Mormon.

 
 

It's A Pattern

carolynr Thursday, October 20th at 5:26PM EST (link)

Why not look at what he did…after three times…and when it could cost him … he finally fired them. This is typical of people who play both sides against the middle. This guy is a con artist.

 
 

Anger or frustration

balloonjuice Thursday, October 20th at 3:38PM EST (link)

When a candidate gets up there and starts lying about his own record, it is hard to remain patient.

Romney wants to paint Perry as soft on illegal immigration. Those of us who work and live in Texas know that he is not.

There is far greater “danger” of amnesty under Romney than any of the other candidates on that stage.

True! Amnesty is the cowardly way out of facing

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 5:47PM EST (link)

a really tough problem. Just whitewash it away.

But, the last amnesty shows that whitewashed problems don’t actually disappear.

Ask yourself which candidates are the most likely to support the idea of amnesty. Then HONESTLY assess each person based on their words and their history. Don’t just be a bot for your guy, but actually look at each person. The answers might surprise you.

 
 
 

Perry's face to me

txindependent Thursday, October 20th at 12:27PM EST (link)

seemed angry but not flustered. Romney turned red and got all defensive. Haha, loved it.

 

Romney's red face

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:01PM EST (link)

showed just how unhinged he was. He has proven to be the time keeper in the debates. He cuts off others mid-sentence, but demands he get all the time he wants. Romney has outright lied about his book, and about his gardners, and that’s only a few things.

Mitt's crimson face

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 1:06PM EST (link)

was something to behold. Perry really got under his skin. It’s about time someone called him out for all his lies and hypocrisy.

After Romney's cackling laugh

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:30PM EST (link)

at what Perry had just said, Perry was right to keep up the attack. Romney thought he was going to have another “nice try” moment with Perry. Romney got the surprise of his life. Had he been allowed to take the microphone and run with it after his condesending laughing at Perry, Perry would have been seen as a wimp, and asleep once again. Perry was absolutely right to stay with it. We saw the veneer crack, which was more than welcome.

Romney's fake belly-laugh

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 8:21PM EST (link)

just confirms his lack of authenticity. He probably thought Perry wouldn’t press him on the issue. Boy was he wrong.

 
 
 
 

What....What???

carolynr Thursday, October 20th at 5:20PM EST (link)

Who put their hands on who. Romney did…go back and look at the debate. Second of all…what do you call Romney nasty remarks at Perry. If it were me…I’d have hit the guy. This shows a great deal of restraint on Perry’s Party. So…Deives…I’ll just put my hand on your shoulder, hold it there and then tell you that you are “testie” because of a bad couple of debate performances. Were we watching the same thing.

If there is a bully in the room it is Romney. When the guy in Iowa asked about SS…he went on and on about it being his turn to speak. I’m King Romney…don’t you know…I have to set you straight. He has done with Santorum with the same crap. Remember the WaPo debate where one of the moderators asked a perfectly logical question…because…after all Romney is this big business guy who KNOWS EVERYTHING…EVEN MORE THAN GOD. Remember she said…what are you going to do about the exposure of US banks if Europe goes bankrupt. His answer..I don’t deal in hypotheticals. Then she asked it again…and he got even nastier…treating her as if she were someone without a brain who really didn’t understand world affairs. After the third time…he finally deflected from the answer and gave what he wanted.

Romney is the bully…not Perry. He is also good in trying to get you all to buy his dog and pony show by looking at Perry as if he were insane for asking a question. The guy is a major button pusher. Problem for Romney…all his skeletons…along with his FABULOUS personality are now being exposed.

You need to look at the debate yourself instead of the setup on Hannity with Luntz. Romney’s is a lot smoother than Perry…I will give you that…but he (Romney) LIES.

 
 
 

Who is best to beat Obama and win the primary?

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 12:19PM EST (link)

It comes down to:
Perry, Cain, Newt as the Anti-Romney candidates.

Could some please tell me how Cain can beat down Obama being the gaffe machine Cain is. How can Cain have any path to the primary with no real money, how can Cain win the general with no prior experience (we will be playing to a different field in the general).

Cain has no record, no substance to look at how he will govern.

In my opinion it really comes down to Perry or Newt. I look forward to reading Perry’s tax plan

The longer it is divided in the anti-Romney the greater the chances of Romney winning the nomination.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


Agree, Cain should be out if only for his gaffe on Gitmo

gracie (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:40PM EST (link)

This man is not ready for prime time due to his ignorance on foreign policy alone. He does not know we don’t negotiate with terrorists?? He has to ask his advisors?

Come on! when the 3 AM call comes in, he has time to call his advisors?

I am at the point I want to know more about Newt. What was he really saying by sitting on that couch with Pelosi? Mark Davis, radio from Dallas, says Newt told him he was just showing that conservatives can also be for the environment albeit by different approach. So where is he really on global warming/cap ‘n trade?

I still trust Perry’s core beliefs. What about Perry/Newt?

 

Great question.

jackdaniels11 Thursday, October 20th at 12:44PM EST (link)

I disagree with part of your analysis, though.

I agree with you that Cain has no record and no substance.

I disagree with you that it comes down to Perry or Newt.

You think that the late-night comics that have had so much influence in the last 5 presidential elections are going to give Perry or Newt a pass.

Perry has already been branded as this year’s “dunce” (see Dan Quayle, George W. Bush, Sarah Palin for info on what that means). Newt has personal baggage that, although over-hyped, will continue to saddle him once the libs get their whisper-campaign going. The whisper-campaign in 2008 hurt McCain/Palin far worse than any paid spots that Obama put on TV.

We need Romney to get the nomination. And we need Republicans to rally behind him just like the Clintonite Dems rallied behind Obama in ’08.

This all-out attempt to tar-and-feather Mitt Romney must stop.

The tar and feathering of Romney has just begun

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:05PM EST (link)

up until now, he has played if safe. Now that some know what buttons to push, to knock the teleprompter off in his mind, it will happen again and again. As the Perry team has promised, by the end of this, Romney will be debating Romney. Interesting to see what Romney wins in those debates.

The cloak of inevitability has worn thin.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:10PM EST (link)

Romney has ghosted above the fray; he amassed a huge war chest, has his own money available, kept his team from 2008 together, and got in very early.

He’s been “the inevitable candidate”, and the net result is nobody’s taken him to task on his actual stands.

That’s starting to change.

Whether Perry going after Romney on illegal gardeners is a cheap shot or not, it’s a shot that had to be taken, and better now than after the ballots start being cast and counted.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Agreed Cat

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:53PM EST (link)

I’ve read articles where the author cries because the gardner story was around in the last campaign, and it was already resolved then. There are many things that came up in the last campaign against Romney that have been dormant so far in this campaign. People forget an awful lot four years later, and need to be reminded again of his past problems. Romney, and his people apparently think that all of his faults were already vetted last time to the rodeo, and that they don’t need to be brought up again. If he was already vetted last campaign, and his faults were of no consequence, then why didn’t he win the nomination last time? He was beat by McCain fergawdsakes. Now he can add his continuing support for Romneycare, Global Warming, and ethanol subsidies.

 
 
 

Republicans v. Conservatives

standingonthewall Thursday, October 20th at 2:24PM EST (link)

You might get Republicans to decide he is the only one who can win and rally behind Romney. That is going to be a nearly impossible sale to Conservatives.

When are the Conservative primaries?

Ed54 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:38PM EST (link)

n/t

“If all men were just, there would be no need of valor.”
- Agesilaus

 

They start in Iowa, then New Hampshire, then

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 5:57PM EST (link)

South Carolina and Florida. The Nevada caucuses are in there somewhere. What’s your point? That conservatives have no say? I think if nothing else does, the 2010 elections give conservatives a place at the table.

 
 

And do you think the late night comics won't attack

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:01PM EST (link)

Romney???
They have already started on his robotness, his flip-flops, his money.

Now they will add his gardeners. And lots of other issues.

We can’t let the comedians pick our candidate any more than we can let the Dem pols or the media do it. Get real!!!

They have been taking it easy on him because all liberals want him as our candidate, because they believe Obummer can beat him easily.

 
 
 

At this point it is a two man race, not who you think

texas214 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:19PM EST (link)

Romney and Newt. They are the only two with the gravitas to not only take on Obama, but the media which will be unmerciful to them.

Cain’s, 999 Plan is in trouble and he is in last place on being able to discuss any of the other responsibilities of a president.

Perry is in the business of attacking without giving a reason why he should be the nominee. It’s okay to go after an opponent, but in doing so you have to give a reason why you are the better alternative.

Bachman, Santorum, Paul, Huntsman are becoming a waist of time.

Newt would crush Nobama in debates

easyb (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:24PM EST (link)

But do you think he can overcome past transgressions enough to win the nomination?

After the debate the other night, my wife asked me why Newt’s not polling well, because he seems like the smartest in the room. I told her to go read up on his record, in office and at home. She did, and then said, “Oh, I get it now.”

Newt’s stepped in a lot of mud. Like him a lot, but there’s a lot of baggage there…

Sounds like Newt

texas214 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:29PM EST (link)

needs to give a speech on his past, with all of the appropriate apologies, much as Romney should have done early on regarding healthcare.

Checkers?

standingonthewall Thursday, October 20th at 2:27PM EST (link)

Anyone old enough to remember Nixon’s “Checkers” speech?
Still, maybe not such a bad idea for Newt to address his “past” and his “baggage” at some point.

Newt's baggage

courtwitch (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:40PM EST (link)

You’re right -texas214 – I’ve always thought that if NEwt just threw all this “baggage” out in the light, explained his thought process and reasoning for which I have no doubt he had valid reasons, I believe it would allay any questions. Right now, he’s fighting the whispers and the plain “statements” made by all the media that he “has too much baggage”.

Sandy J. Mittelstaedt

"for which I have no doubt he had valid reasons"

easyb (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:32PM EST (link)

Some of his policy stances and questionable decisions, sure.

But the adultery? No valid reason for that. I mean, he was in an affair while going after Clinton on the Lewinski affair. If Newt somehow becomes the nominee, the Clintonista’s are bound to go RABID after Newt.

Still, I agree with the premise. If he comes out and has a press conference and puts everything out there in the sunlight, he’s better off. The electorate will forgive a lot if they believe he’ll beat and govern better than Obama.

 

The problem for Newt is the difference between

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:05PM EST (link)

reasons and excuses. I am sure he has reasons, but I expect he will offer only excuses.

 
 
 

I agree with you on Newt

andysmith (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:03PM EST (link)

but don’t you think Perry should be issuing an apology on supporting HillaryCare?

“Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. ”
“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives. ”
“Governments tend not to solve problems, only to rearrange them.”

-The great Ronald Reagan
www.rightreality.wordpress.com

 
 

Totally agree easyb

paulplantowin Thursday, October 20th at 9:01PM EST (link)

I would pay a lot of money to watch Newt rip Nonothing to shreds in a debate.
I don’t know how it could ever come to pass – but it would expose our so-called genius pres as the lazy unprepared oaf he really is.
If only…

Just pure awesome

easyb (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 9:35PM EST (link)

No other way to describe the verbal beatdown Newt would deliver to the One

 
 
 

Perry

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:26PM EST (link)

So true! Perry spent way too much time bashing Romney and Cain.

Perry spent way too much time bashing Romney and Cain

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:33PM EST (link)

Whhhhaaannnaaaaaaa……..

So it was OK that EVERYONE else including Romney & Cain
were bashing Perry in all the other debates?

Romney & Cain will have to get their big boy pants on
and get used to being beat up or go home.

What you think the Obama team will handle old Mittens or Cain
with kid gloves???

Perry has been fighting the Obama administration over
a multitude of issues in Texas.

I cannot wait until that fight gets out in the open for all of America to see.
Obama will have EPIC FAIL on his hands this time.

Rick Perry is no John McCain…….

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

Perry would do better to bash Cain and Mitt on the merits of their proposals

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:39PM EST (link)

which shouldn’t be too hard. I am in mourning now over Cain’s gaffe-a-day and pro-choice-like musings. They all suck. Go Perry!

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Perry should stick to the issues.

jackdaniels11 Thursday, October 20th at 12:48PM EST (link)

Perry’s personal attacks on Romney make him look desperate.

Cain’s gaffe-a-day is killing me. Worse, to avoid gaffes, he is hiding behind the old, “I will first have to gather more information before I tell you what I would do.”

Guess what, Hermanator? The press ain’t gonna say, “Great answer!” every time you dodge important questions like “Would you cut foreign aid to Israel?” and “Would you exchange prisoners with terrorist networks?” The old “I’ll tell you after I’m elected” is not going to fly.

I still have hope for Cain.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:58PM EST (link)

I think he’d make a great Treasury Secretary, head of OMB, or even veep, with the specific task of getting business working again.

It sounds like Perry may be able to gather some of the excitement over Cain’s 9-9-9 plan as he’s apparently got a simplified tax plan in the works.

I do not see anything compelling about Romney.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

outsider gaffes vs. establishment slick politician conundrum

Common_Cents (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:10PM EST (link)

People complain about straigh talkin gaffes on one hand, wanting a DC outsider against the slick polished establishment.

On the other hand they hate the gaffes of an unscripted outsider and long for a slick polished establishment candidate so sanitized that they say actually nothing of substance.

Gotta love politics.

Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from, behind, the Back Nine.
Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.

Actually, when the outsider gaffes daily, the people

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:16PM EST (link)

do not long for the “slick polished establishment candidate”. They long for someone who has done his homework, who realizes that the office he is seeking is not some marketing ploy, who actually thinks through current events and issues and can make statements based on a solid foundation of basic principles that will govern all of his / her decisions that will need to be made under the fire of the most powerful office in the world.

Just saying “I will have to ask my experts about that” won’t cut it. He should be asking his experts before the press asks him the question.
He doesn’t understand how to be the president, or even how to prepare to be the president. Put him in as Secretary of Commerce, or some such, but NOT into the White House please. We have have enough amateurs doing OJT there!

Please, no on the job training

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 6:30PM EST (link)

We don’t need on the job training, please. Cain is a wonderful man with a great story but he will be on the job training and we can’t afford that now.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


I agree - Obama has the same problem

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:33PM EST (link)

OJT does not work for President of the USA

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

 
 
 
 

But Romney's personal attacks on Perry are fair game?

retire05 Thursday, October 20th at 1:52PM EST (link)

Romney did the same thing to Guiliani and Huckabee he is now trying to do to Perry.

He (Romney) needs to be called on the carpet for his own personal attacks against other candidates, and often.

retire05

 
 

My sincere condolences to you, DeVine,

westcoastpatriette (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:51PM EST (link)

even if I like the outcome–Perry will win this and beat Obama.

 
 

McCain

deives Thursday, October 20th at 12:39PM EST (link)

Hands down Perry is no McCain. McCain was such a wimp and Obama would have won by a landslide if not for Palin.

However, Perry cannot get that look on his face. Ronnie knew how to handle Carter.

This makes no sense.

jackdaniels11 Thursday, October 20th at 12:50PM EST (link)

“Obama would have won by a landslide if not for Palin.”

Obama did win by a landslide and it was because of Palin (and a candidate who Pat Robertson had already declared “unacceptable”) (McCain was labeled an “unacceptable candidate” by Robertson early in the campaign and Pat never changed his opinion.

Robertson did find both Giuliani and Romney to be acceptable candidates.

Also Carter.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:54PM EST (link)

Robertson isn’t who I would choose to base my vote on.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

Robertson's endorsement helped Giuliani greatly ...

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:00PM EST (link)

right into the hall of shame for running one of the most lackluster campaigns in history.

Seriously, I’ve no beef with Pat, but I don’t see him as particularly helpful or accurate.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

disagree

irishgirl Thursday, October 20th at 2:52PM EST (link)

Uh, no Obama did not win by a “landslide”. If you want to look at a real presidential election being a landslide, take a look at the Carter-Reagan outcome. Now that was a landslide. Keep it real.

 
 

One of Reagan's best moments was when he got angry.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:57PM EST (link)

I suggest you try a different angle.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


5, Aaron.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:01PM EST (link)

Reagan was once in a lifetime.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

Wonderful Reagan clip

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 1:11PM EST (link)

And the rest is history, as they say.

 

Context?

easyb (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:25PM EST (link)

What was the context of this Reagan video? Sorry, I was 5 in 1980…

 
 
 
 
 

If Romney can't even take a roughing up

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:10PM EST (link)

from that mean old dummy Perry, how will he hold his own with the other smooth talking snake oil salesman. What would Romney’s positions be that would contrast him from Obama? He’s on the same page with Romneycare, and Global Warming. He has a poor history of job growth when he was Governor. He never took illegal immigration seriously, until he was going to run for the presidency. Between Romney and Obama, the difference is the same as pink vs pale blue.

 

Field needs to consolidate

jmcmd Thursday, October 20th at 1:20PM EST (link)

At some point it is going to become clear that Newt is the only person that can beat Obama on the isues and appeal to conservatives. Unfortunately with so many people in the race, Newt doens’t have as much time to shine.. Perry is too weak on the issue of illegals and his attacks made him look too angry. . Romney will not be able to get enough support from conservatives (we just don’t trust him) and can only hope that there is very little consolidation until late in the race. Has anyone seen polling data that puts Romney head to head against either Cain, Perry, or Newt? I can’t imagine he wins any of those matchups.

Since You Asked!

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:30PM EST (link)

Currently(and this can change), Cain beats Romney 1 on 1 and Romney beats Perry 1 on 1. I’ve never seen Romney vs. Newt 1 on 1.

But again that can change a lot in a few months.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

 
 
 

Gadaffi believed dead

tngal (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:20PM EST (link)

I only bring it up here because every time another dictator goes down Obama is praised (whether or not his policies had anything to do with it.) We can expect the focus on our republican hopefuls to shift to military issues over the next few days. Where does our military intervene, how much should we spend, what type of support do we lend?

Taxes, abortion and what have you may take a back burner for a couple of days.

Ooooops!

NickDeringer (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:27PM EST (link)

OWS has lost another supporter.

 
 

Perry has the money and experience

txindependent Thursday, October 20th at 12:21PM EST (link)

Just hope the polls start reflecting that

As a Texan I'm still not sold

texas214 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:25PM EST (link)

What needs to be the focus here is who can best put forward and sell to the American public a conservative vision over the top of what will be unmerciful attacks by team Obama and the media.

It is not Perry’s strong point.

I'd rather have the candidate who sells conservatism,

gator_hoo (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:31PM EST (link)

By showing that conservative policies work, as Perry has done in Texas, than someone who can eloquently defend the policies, but has no interest in putting them in place.

The opportunity we have is that Keynesianism has plainly failed in America, the best repines is not a play-by-play analysis, but simply instituting policies that succeed where it has failed.

Only Perry can truly do that, though I am warming to Newt as his veep.

Perry can have the best plan

texas214 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:55PM EST (link)

but it won’t matter if Obama is still president. If Perry can’t sell his plan and himself as a leader it won’t matter.

 

Perry is not putting out a vision for America

Brookhaven (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:34PM EST (link)

Saying how great Texas is and that you will make the rest of the country like Texas is NOT going to get the job done. Nothing personal Texas, but the rest of the country thinks it’s great also.

Perry needs to create a vision of how America can be great again. This is exactly what Reagan did.

If Perry’s flat-tax economic plan is everything it’s rumored to be, it could be exactly the foundation he could use as a platform to start talking about making America great by unleasing everyone from the government (and then play off his “make government inconsequential” and “10 amendment” lines).

Ironicly, if that works for Perry, he’ll have Cain to thank. As Cain’s 999 proposal has focused the public in tax reform and paved the road for another plan.

And before the get called a Perry hater again (why do I get called that even when I try to make constructive criticism of Perry), I suggest you look at my diary today. It points out that, given the current circumstances, there are only two candidates GOP voters should be considering: Cain and Perry (with a maybe for Newt IF he makes a change in his economic plan).

How to Guarantee a Democrat Majority in Congress Forever

Or maybe you just aren't listening...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:44PM EST (link)

See here:

And here:

And here:

And here:

Sure, he isn’t putting out cheesy videos of himself singing God Bless America, but to say he isn’t putting forth a vision of how to make America great again is just wrong.

And before you start, he has offered a wonderful energy plan and is going to be putting out a really good tax reform plan, which, I will add, has nothing whatsoever to do with Cain’s plan.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Apparenty you only read the title of my post

Brookhaven (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:46PM EST (link)

Except for the fact that I addressed the rest of your post in the text on my comment.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:50PM EST (link)

Now who’s not reading?

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


That was my point

Brookhaven (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:06PM EST (link)

If you had read the post, you would not have made several of the points you made.

I referenced Perry’s tax plan as a potential huge positive for Perry, and then you proceeded to inform me about it as if I didn’t know it existed.

No, I mentioned it solely to note that Cain has ziltch to do with it.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:14PM EST (link)

Since you attempted to give some tangential credit to Cain in your post. I read your post. I replied to your points, such as they were.

Again, you don’t listen to Perry and you don’t comprehend me.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 
 
 

Perry's vision for America

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:46PM EST (link)

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

 

So low taxation and low regulation works only in Texas?

gator_hoo (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:49PM EST (link)

Guess all those candidates who say they want to reduce taxation and regulation think Texas might be onto something.

Good lord, a candidate who has a proven record is attacked for relying on his proven record. Guess why he talks about Texas. It might be because he is the Governor of Texas. Just like Cain talks about being a businessman. If this is where presidential politics have gone, then this country is well and truly doomed. The only people who haven’t made mistakes are those who haven’t done anything. This is how Obama got elected, by being the guy nobody could say much about. Only Newt and Perry have records that they are running on at all. Romney is running away from/ lying about his record, and Cain doesn’t have a record at all.

Perry’s debates weren’t great by any means, but I’ll take the guy who can show he gets things done over the guy who has some great idea that has never been tried or vetted.

o

Perry is the ideal Conservative candidate

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 2:58PM EST (link)

This is what gets me, not only is Perry stating what needs to be done that we “should” agree on but he has done many of this in Texas. I just don’t understand these anti-Romney folks who can’t see the perfect candidate right in front to them. Truly amazing

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 
 

What about his energy plan?

evilleramsfan Friday, October 21st at 1:17AM EST (link)

Haven’t you read it?

“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett

 
 
 

Donald Trump met with Perry,

txindependent Thursday, October 20th at 12:54PM EST (link)

and said about that interview, Perry was great in person, very articulate and energetic. Trump asked him why he wasn’t doing better in the debates and Perry said it’s not his strong point.

So I’m hoping there are other ways he can communicate his vision. He needs to do an interview soon.

Perry will be on O'Reilly

LibertyWins (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 3:17AM EST (link)

Tuesday!

Liberty without Virtue is Slavery to Vice

Perry Tax Plan with Forbes on O'Reily

bzip Friday, October 21st at 6:30AM EST (link)

Don’t forget Tues Perry will release his own Flat Tax Plan. Forbes help Perry in creating it. My guess is Perry will soon be making the media rounds.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 
 
 

Perry was able to get under Romney's

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:17PM EST (link)

skin, which caused him to become unhinged. It was Perry who pushed Romney into saying that he couldn’t have illegals working for him because he was running for office. Do you think Perry wouldn’t or couldn’t push Obama to the same point? Obama has not been able to stay on message without his teleprompters, his inner socialist comes flying out unscripted. Obama has become exasperated in interviews when pushed too hard. Remember the Brett Baier interview of Obama when he kept pushing Obama for an answer? Perry showed you in the debate that he can get under the skin of even the unflappable robot Romney.

Another perspective

bdirks Thursday, October 20th at 1:47PM EST (link)

I don’t think it was the subject and substance of Perry’s comments, but rather the utter rudeness of the whole thing that got under Romney’s skin. Debates are supposed to have structure and civility and Perry was, as he admitted, unconcerned with those rules. What would happen in the NFL if one team was losing and just decided that they just didn’t have to stay on-sides before the snap? The answer is that the refs would step in and put a stop to it, but since Anderson Cooper is Ed Hochuli not, the only person left was Mitt.

I also think its a bit naive to think that Romney was at all blindsided and flustered by the landscaping story. It was a frequent topic during the last debate, and for all his faults this is just about the only thing on the guy that qualifies as his “soft underbelly” on the immigration issue. Like him or not, I think most people agree that a smart guy like Mitt who has been running for President for about 6 years was ready to respond to the story that likely came up first when googling “Romney + Immigration”

IMO, a far more genuine look of pure rage was on Perry when Mitt condescendingly remarked that “Rick has had a rough couple of debates – its understandable he would be testy.” I would venture to say Rick has never been put down like that in his entire career.

correction

bdirks Thursday, October 20th at 1:54PM EST (link)

By “last debate” I meant the 2008 campaign.

 

We need less civility in debates

Brookhaven (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:09PM EST (link)

Debates have devolved into interviews where everyone just happens to be in the same room at the same time. The moderator asks on candidate a question, they answer. The moderator asks another candidate a question, they answer.The candidates never even interact with each other!

I’m all for the candidates asking each other questions and going back and forth WITHOUT the moderator getting in between them. If that’s rude, then I’m all for it.

One of the high points of the CNN debate was Newt's parting shot...

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:14PM EST (link)

challenging the Dem candidate to 7 Lincoln-Douglas-style debates.

I’ve called these the Westminster Candidate Club “debates” before for a reason…

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

Agree to a certain extent

bdirks Thursday, October 20th at 2:18PM EST (link)

I too, am all for forcefully challenging through the spin and asking follow up questions in response to an artful dodge. What I don’t like is the debate equivalent of 5 and 8 year old brothers in an intense game of “uh uh” and “yeah huh”. I could be wrong, but to me it seemed like Perry didn’t have anything of substance to say when he was interrupting – it just seemed like he didn’t want anyone to hear Romney’s reply.

Look I've Held Off On The Subject Of The Perry vs. Romney Spat Until Now

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:27PM EST (link)

Look they both hurt each other and themselves a lot for 0 gain while hurting the advancement of the conservative argument in this country.

Romney was a weird @-hole, lecturing people about the time and rules of the debate like he was a old nun school teacher disciplining a student. Its just rude and gained 0.

Perry constantly interrupting is just going to remind parents all over the country of their 7 year old kid that wont shut up while they’re talking. That part could no way benefit Perry either.

The only reason why I’ve said Perry had a good debate was because outside of that moment he had some moments where he talked with some real passion and made it personal to people at home.

And Romney had a bad debate because he for the first time lost his cool and started acting like a d*ck.

But I have a real problem understanding someone saying that Perry’s decision to constantly interrupt another person was why Perry had a good debate and it was good for their campaign. Yeah, right!! Perry had a good debate because of what happened outside of those childish moments.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

 

Romney's reply

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:41PM EST (link)

was classic. “I’m running for office, I can’t have illegals working here.” Yup, Perry pushed him right into one of the dumbest statements in the debates to date. Even Axelrod has already inserted that statement into a future ad against Romney.

 
 

Disagree With Your Title, Agree With Your Text!

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:19PM EST (link)

Having candidates go back and forth on their own is a great thing, but that doesn’t mean they have to be rude and childish.

Candidates addressing each other and talking without the moderator is a great thing. The Bloomberg debate was very, very good on that front and I hope that trend continues in politics.

And I actually think the more back and forth will make debates more civil not less civil. You would think the opposite from CNN, but I’m hoping the campaigns realize that acting like children is hurting both candidates that engage in it.

The reason why addressing each other will bring more civility over time is because its a lot easier to be mean and childish when you don’t direct at someones face. That is why the meanest things are said in commercials, the 2nd meanest said in speeches where the other guy isn’t there, the 3rd meanest is when something is said at a debate, but not directed at another’s face, and the 4th(usually, but not last night) is directed at someone directly in a debate.

The decision to be uncivil is coming from the candidates and the campaigns. It comes from a very old playbook that no longer works. And candidates just aren’t learning it yet. I have a feeling that after this cycle when the high paid analysts of future campaigns analyze all of the data, polling, focus groups, etc. they’ll finally put this “lets be @$$holes” notion mostly asleep for a long time.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

 
 

Romney has been rude and then some

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:37PM EST (link)

in past debates when he has condescendingly told Perry to more or less shut up because he was speaking. When they were sitting at the round table debate, he turned to Perry and told him he was speaking, and then turned away from him like he was excused from the debate. Romney has done the exact same thing to others in the debates. He thinks he controls the tone and the time in all the debates. When he didn’t get help from Cooper, and Perry was allowed to go on, Romney looked like a helpless little child who couldn’t get his way. Romney has been on Perry’s back since he got into the race, and he has been allowed to do i, up to and including outright lying in the debates about Perry’s record and statements. Everyone says that Perry was asleep in past debates. Everyone shouts that Perry didn’t take advantage of opportunities to go after Romney. Now he does, and he is the one who was rude? Romney has been rude and crude in every debate so far, and has been ever condescending against Perry. Perry gives Romney some comeupance, and a taste of his own medicine, and the thin skinned flip flopper gets his baby feelings hurt. Poor baby Romney, the Hall Monitor has finally been put in his place, and not a minute too soon.

Not the "exact same"

bdirks Thursday, October 20th at 2:46PM EST (link)

I don’t recall, and to be honest I can’t imagine Romney peppering the other candidates with “It’s time for you to tell the truth!” and other incomplete sentences the way Santorum and Perry did.

It would be difficult

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:51PM EST (link)

for Romney to ask anyone to tell the truth when he lies with the ease of Obama.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Perry's Tax Plan

evilleramsfan Thursday, October 20th at 12:23PM EST (link)

..will be interesting. Word has it that Steve Forbes is among his principal advisors who have been fine-tuning the plan. With Forbes’ stamp on it, I find it hard for northeast elites to bring too much criticism of it. New Hampshire was enthralled with Forbes’ flat tax idea when he previously proposed it, so it could be a major game changer.

“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett

Great plan by Perry

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 12:37PM EST (link)

A flat tax is exactly what this economy needs to stimulate growth and job creation. Perry needs to push this hard, because it is something that will clearly separate him from the likes of Obama and Romney. Economic growth will solve most of our problems. Without it, we face a very bleak future indeed.

Forbes plan...

evilleramsfan Thursday, October 20th at 12:45PM EST (link)

was no tax up to $36,000 and then 17% on anything above that figure. I compared it to my family income last year and found it to be very similar to what we paid but not having to go through all the extra bs and costs of having the returns prepared. Perry’s plan is close to the same but the base income and percentage are being tweaked to fit current conditions.

“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett

Simplicity and transparency

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 1:14PM EST (link)

is the hallmark of the flat tax. I’m thrilled to hear that Perry will be announcing this next week. This should be a very substantive proposal.

 
 

I Supported Forbes in '96

Spartan4Life (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:21PM EST (link)

It was a good idea then and a good idea now.

 

A Perry flat tax plan should get people excited

carolina Thursday, October 20th at 5:46PM EST (link)

Actually, I am surprised that Cain left that option on the table for Perry to pick up. It seems like the obvious great move.
I like Perry’s energy plan. A flat tax plan should be a BIG winner!

 
 

Forbes on Fox this afternoon

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 1:36PM EST (link)

Forbes was on Fox News shortly after noon all but endorsing Perry. When asked if he was endorsing, he said something like, “I’m moving that direction very quickly”.

He said that he has been advising Perry on the flat tax plan and was obviously very supportive of it.

Important endorsement

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 2:03PM EST (link)

if it occurs. Steve Forbes has a brilliant understanding of the economy and what is needed to get it growing again. If Perry can get his endorsement that will help him out tremendously.

Hmmm....

evilleramsfan Thursday, October 20th at 2:21PM EST (link)

Treasury Secretary Forbes? I like the ring of it…..

“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett

 
 
 
 

Totally agree...

neoavatara (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:25PM EST (link)

Perry and Santorum gave the others the blueprint of taking Romney out of his debate performance. Romney is still a marginal frontrunner, but that is closing.

Perry hurt Romney…but did he help himself? I am not convinced. He will come out with a tax policy statement this week, which is great. The question is, can he eloquently explain it, and then defend it in a debate? I an unconvinced.

Cain is taking a lot of hits, but not a lot of significant damage. He has held together far better than Bachmann or Perry did.

Newt is Newt, which is good and bad. The one good thing is if he catches fire, he is a known entity…his baggage is all out in the open. The problem is if history will come back to haunt him.

The other candidates are nonentities, and need to disappear for the greater good.

www.neoavatara.com/blog

Cain is taking significant damage

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:25PM EST (link)

The more people look into his 999 plan, and his inability to defend it without telling people to go read his website is not working out real well for him. Didn’t he say that it was not a VAT, but at his website it states that it is a modified VAT? He is starting to get very exasperated with his opponents, and others questioning his plan. It’s as though he put the plan out there, and expected everyone to just accept it, without questions, because the Hermanator wrote it. He will now be defending his words about abortion with Piers Morgan. I suspect that Herman will now get down and dirty because he is getting more negative press than he did when he was considered a long shot. The harder the questions become for Cain, the more gaffes he makes. They seem to be coming more rapidly.

Don't forget that he said

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 1:38PM EST (link)

he would be willing to release Khalid Sheik Mohammed from Gitmo in a negotiated prisoner swap with Al Queda.

 
 
 

It's still anybody's game

renl57 Thursday, October 20th at 12:26PM EST (link)

It’s really premature to talk about a “horserace” when not a single caucus or primary has yet been held, and we decide who the frontrunners are based on the vagaries of polls of Republicans who are still finding out lots of things about the candidates.

In October 2008, Hillary was still the “frontrunner” in that vague sense.

 

The Mormon issue is bubbling up to the surface

NickDeringer (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:31PM EST (link)

I saw this coming a year ago. The Dems are raising this and forcing Romney to respond. Romney can’t just call people “religious bigots” and move on. It won’t work. Unless Romney can squelch this it will be another roadblock for him on his journey to the WH.

And what exactly is the Mormon "issue"?

bdirks Thursday, October 20th at 12:45PM EST (link)

Won't be an issue

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:52PM EST (link)

Obama got elected with Rev. Wright hanging around his neck……

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

You make a false assumption,

texas214 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:57PM EST (link)

the press will treat Mitt the same as they did Obama.

 
 

The Mormon Issue

NickDeringer (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:01PM EST (link)

http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/columns/maureen-dowd/article_3cd767db-cf01-5cd6-b8ec-82a43f3aec90.html

Spagnolo rule.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:04PM EST (link)

Drop the religion issue.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Not me he has to worry about

NickDeringer (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:31PM EST (link)

Mormon issue not going away.

Won't make much difference in the general.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:03PM EST (link)

And is an unnecessary distraction now.

Drop it.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Wishful thinking

NickDeringer (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:00PM EST (link)

You better tell MoDo to drop it. It ain’t going away.

Do you have a point to make on it, Nick?

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:38PM EST (link)

Sure seems like you’re the one having a problem dropping it.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

The most likeable candidate always wins-

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 12:36PM EST (link)

So many people underestimate the likability factor of candidates and how that causes them to win. Bernard Goldberg hinted on that in his column the other day.

Let’s go back to around Ford.

In 1976, Jimmy Carter beats Gerald Ford. You can say that this is because of numerous reasons such as Nixon being pardoned, etc. Jimmy Carter came off as a down to earth, likeable, folksy, peanut farmer that people could connect with. Jimmy Carter won.

In 1980, Jimmy Carter’s presidency had been a disaster. The economy was in shambles and everyone was in a “malaise”. Jimmy Carter had grown quite bitter. Then comes along the actor Ronald Reagan who could light up a room with his sense of humor, stagecraft and humor. He was 100 times more likeable than Jimmy Carter. Ronald Reagan won.

In 1984, Walter Mondale ran against Ronald Reagan. Mondale was a man of principle. (Wrong principles) But he was boring as hell compared to Reagan. Reagan could have Mondale and the moderators gasping for air because they were laughing so hard at Reagan’s humorous quips. It was clear just how more likeable Ronald Reagan was over Mondale. That’s why Reagan won in a landslide.

In 1988, George H. W. Bush ran. This is a bit of an anomaly since George H. W. Bush was not all that likeable. The Democrats screwed up though and nominated the even more unlikeable Michael Dukakis. It was impossible to connect with Michael Dukakis. So riding Reagan’s coattails George H. W. Bush was able to beat Dukakis.

In 1992, the economy had hurt some and George H. W. Bush raised taxes after having been forced to play his hand by a Democratic congress. The Democrats nominated the sax playing, smooth talking charmer from Arkansas named Bill Clinton. It was clear with Bill Clinton’s amiable behavior that he was far more likeable than Bush. As a result, Clinton wiped the floor with him.

In 1996, the Republicans nominated old Bob Dole. Bob Dole vs Bill Clinton. Seriously Republicans? Of course, Clinton won.

In 2000, you had George W. Bush going up against vice president Al Gore. The economy was great, Clinton was popular and the Republicans had the Congress for 4 years. It made sense that Al Gore would win riding the popularity of Clinton and to balance out the branches of government. But he didn’t. Gore came across as a robot while Bush came across as a likeable cowboy from Texas that you would love to have a beer with. It was close, even bringing in the Supreme Court, but Bush won when Al Gore should’ve just skipped into the presidency.

In 2004, you had rich Massachusetts candidate John Kerry nominated to run against George W. Bush. The Iraq war was unpopular, the new media was hounding George W. Bush and he wasn’t very popular. Kerry, however, was extremely unlikeable. The man shows up in hunting gear trying to get a hunting license. It’s quite clear that there was a huge disconnect between him and the common man. Kerry’s policy changes made him comes across as untrustworthy. Other factors such as the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and other things came into play, but ultimately Bush was way more likeable than Kerry. So Bush won.

In 2008, you had a Democratic primary between the inevitable next president, Hillary Clinton vs John Edwards & Barack Obama. The problem with Hillary was, she wasn’t likeable like her husband. She came off as a power hungry entitled b-word. As such, the young articulate attractive black man, as Joe Biden described Barack Obama, ended up ultimately winning the Democrat nomination. Republicans of course nominated the old unlikeable moderate, McCain. In the debates, it was clear that Barack Obama came off better than McCain. Barack Obama was extremely likeable when he gave speeches and had the passion behind him. McCain didn’t. As a result, Obama won.

So what are we going to do in 2012? Will it follow the same pattern?

it'd be nice to like a president for a change

tngal (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 12:52PM EST (link)

I liked W for awhile. HIs second term was a little too squishy for me.
Never did like clinton or BO.

Didn’t really like McCain. Respected his service and sacrifice, but didn’t “like” him.

I really liked Fred. Stupid South Caolina. I blame them because he dropped out after their primary.

Yes, I hope the next president is one I like. It would be refreshing.

Precisely, Obama is vulnerable at the moment because he's unlikeable

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 12:55PM EST (link)

Obama is looking kind of angry and bitter at the moment.

The worse thing we can do is by putting up either a cold robotic candidate against him or an even more angry spiteful candidate against him.

We’d lose.

Not even close

center77 (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 3:10AM EST (link)

Obama is well liked, his positions just are not well liked, and thats why he may lose. We need someone who has a plan that contrast his, but does not destroy the middle class and poor (Cain). Perry is going to have a non-regressive version of a flat tax. Balanced budget amendment, no ear marks, no loop hole, and an energy plan that is like a shot in the arm of red bull to our economy. Oil is the life blood of our economy. Perry has the record, the soft enough immigration record, but the tough enough immigration record. Just right. No way we should not run him against Obama, it makes sense. But Romney, OMG why in the world would we think he could win. What is wrong with people and this Cain thing.

My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
http://www.timothy-bladel.com/
I’m a proud supporter of Rick Perry. God Bless everyone.

“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewll adress (January 11, 1989)

 
 
 

Bernard Goldberg also said

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:28PM EST (link)

on O’Reilly’s show a few nights ago that if people don’t just vote for Romney, the conservatives will be to blame if Obama wins again. Bernard Goldberg doesn’t have a clue.

Dick Morris

center77 (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 3:11AM EST (link)

said all that matters is what they say on Fox news. Everybody else does not matter, not even the candidates.

My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
http://www.timothy-bladel.com/
I’m a proud supporter of Rick Perry. God Bless everyone.

“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewll adress (January 11, 1989)

 
 

2012 swiftboat ads will be...

damianvincent (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:37PM EST (link)

2012 swiftboat ads will be the people romney laid off with bain capital, kennedy’s old campaign has literally dozens of hours of video of these people you can see most of them on youtube now. I expect too see them all roll out in october 2012.

 

Who's More Likeable

carolynr Thursday, October 20th at 6:13PM EST (link)

Well, Obama is corrupt, a Marxist, ant-capitalism and lies so much…we should call him “rug” instead of Obama. When the man comes onto TV…I just fast forward…and then when Drudge reports..the papers usually find him in all kinds of lies. People don’t like liars.

Romney, as has finally been evidenced…although he will play victim for a while…is mean spirited…not just at Perry but at people asking him questions as I blogged earlier.

Cain in likeable..by all means…I’ve been to his events…but he is not ready for prime time.

Perry is a likeable person. I feel comfortable with him talking. I like his wife. Oh she might use “the Lord” a little too much for some people’s taste’s…but she is genuine…..and I like that…I like genuine a lot…and it has been a very long time since we have had that.

Perry is not a debater…but he has some real good track records and he has some real good plans and hope America gets a chance to hear them. I hear he is going to be on O’Reilly. Gee…I wonder if Ailes gave O’Reilly his marching orders on how to put down Perry. Any rate…I hope Perry takes advantage of Erick’s two hour interview…I want to hear it from his lips to my ears…I’m smart enough to get the message as is most of America.

 
 

Look Money/Organization Being The Most Important Is A Myth That Just Needs To Be Dispelled

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:02PM EST (link)

On so many levels it is not as big of a deal as people think it is.

At this time in 1991 Bill Clinton had practically no money and no real operation in any state. Also he was at about 5% in the polls. He had a very late rise in the polls in 1991. Bill was able to barely get a ground operation going in the early states before taking the nomination. Bill proves that you can be a nobody in October and win a several months later.

At this time in 2003, the wealthy John Kerry had little operational strength in any of the early states. In December of 2003, Kerry decided to “bet the farm” on Iowa and increased his operational strength about 20 fold in the state by shipping in over a hundred operatives a week. Kerry proved there is no requirement to have a ground operation all season long as long as you have a good one on caucus/primary day.

At this time in 2007, John McCain had gone through and spent all of his money for the race. He was forced to drop paid staffers, pollsters, all ads, etc. as his operation shrunk to a tiny fraction of what it was. He even had to take out a loan collateralized by his donor/contact list just so he could stay in the race and not close down. When he took a coach flight to New Hampshire the few days before the primary he had basically no money, barely any staffers, and spent his evening outside in Manchester shaking hands and waving to cars. It wasn’t until after he won NH that he started getting money back in.

So especially today with the amount 24/7 news coverage, the sheer amount of debates, and the prevalence of the internet for distributing information about the candidates money and organization is less of a factor than many think it is. Its still definitely a factor, but the presence of it doesn’t by itself make you a contender and the lack of it doesn’t make you a non-contender.

Also, if Meg Whitman couldn’t buy California in 2010, Mitt Romney couldn’t buy the nomination in 2008, than there is no way in he!! Obama will be able to buy the country next year if his fundraising is really as stellar as liberals think it will be.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

Really excellent point

TheSophist (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:41PM EST (link)

Redstate needs a “LIKE” button.

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.” – Ronald Reagan

You're quite correct

timkellogg Friday, October 21st at 2:01AM EST (link)

I want to “like” yours and the one you “liked”
LOL

 
 

Some history you are missing

carolina Thursday, October 20th at 6:07PM EST (link)

A few days before the NH primary the GOP establishment decided to put a ‘hold’ on their boy Romney and they took out a full page NYT ad (that listed all of their names) in support of McCain.
The die was cast, the ‘primary’ was over. Every part of the GOP (throughout the state GOP orgs) knew who to support. So, they did.
So, Romney has been waiting for 2012. He is all that the GOP establishment has in 2012 (unless Newt is a ‘ringer’)
If Perry can’t overcome the establishment crowd (and fire up the conservatives), Romney will get the nomination.

That Is Not Why McCain Won NH

wonkish1 (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 11:13AM EST (link)

You can draw a straight line upward from the Union Leader endorsement to McCain beating the expectations in Iowa.

After McCain’s beating expectations in Iowa he shut up in the polls in NH and in a close race won the primary.

The Union Leader endorsement has been consistently worth 10-15 pts every single cycle in NH, and McCain’s win in 2008 was no different.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

 
 
 

Bachmann is to play the spoiler for Romney????

Brookhaven (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 1:13PM EST (link)

Pile-On Creates Sympathy For Romney

domingos Thursday, October 20th at 1:31PM EST (link)

Every other news source from GBTV to Sean Hannity’s Luntz group observed the lame unpresidential pile-on against Romney.

Some seem to hate Romney so much that they are blind to the facts. They revel in “getting under his skin”. Duh. He was being screamed from by two people at the same time, using up his clock and making false accusations. He punched back, and won.

Reminds me of the Japanese celebrating Kamikazees. So happy to land some blows, they seem oblivious that their guys were annihilated. Perry came off EXTREMELY rude and unpresidential.

But this seems the case with these Horserace updates every time I read it. Every week, Romney has cracks, is in trouble… and it never materializes.

Not just that...

HaroldHutchison (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:22PM EST (link)

To some extent, it also is shots that are perceived as unfair – like Jeffress and the Mormon issue.

It;s one thing to disagree with Romney’s approach in Massachusetts (although, it should be noted that the Heritage Foundation backed the individual mandate as well… do they get excommunicated for that?), but it’s something else to throw something at his religion.

Also, to some extent, I would argue that Romney is the victim of moving goalposts re: Romneycare. If the individual mandate was once good enough for Heritage, then was Romney really that far off base with it when it was enacted? And again, moving goalposts aren’t exactly a fair basis for criticism.

 

Right

angryguy77 Thursday, October 20th at 2:26PM EST (link)

Frank Luntz is a joke and I really don’t understand why he’s relevant. If those people represent the entire party, then we’re screwed.

Mitt is a charlatan who’s fooling a lot of people.
He’s not the only guy who can beat chairman O. I’d like to know from his supporters what exactly he’s done to prove that he’s a conservative and not a spineless moderate?

Do some research,

sunshinek67 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:33PM EST (link)

Frank Luntz stacked focus group in a Google search~

correct

damianvincent (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:44PM EST (link)

yeah I know that and it blows me away that fox is pushing romney the flip flopping liberal upon us.

 
 

Luntz group laughable

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 2:57PM EST (link)

I have never cast aspersions on any polling organization. Polling is scientific and valid if performed properly. These Luntz focus groups, however, are a joke. For one thing the sample size is way too small to be valid. How many are on the panel? 50 to a 100? That’s not nearly enough to be statistically significant. Also they are answering questions in front of a national television audience, as well as in front of each other, which introduces bias. Those dial things never made any sense to me either. I think Fox needs to get rid of this if they want to remain respectable. They are promoting this as pseudo-science, and it isn’t even that.

I Don't Get The Dislike of the Luntz Focus Groups On Here

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:25PM EST (link)

For me I find them very useful because most GOP primary voters aren’t activists like me or folks here on Redstate. So its one opportunity to hear how average GOP voters think no matter if I think the people on their are naive or not.

Of course they aren’t like polls that have higher statistical accuracy, but polls don’t allow me to hear how and why people are giving the answers they are and they allow for commentary on topics not possible to be covered in a poll.

If anything Fox should increase the quantity of focus groups on their network, not decrease them. They are useful, but just not in the same way that polling is.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

Have you ever thought that the Luntz group is...

gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:30PM EST (link)

hand picked. Do they just randomly select people off the street to get thier focus group.
That would be nice to find out how they get thier group.

They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.

We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway

Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved

Given Luntz's History As A Pollster

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:37PM EST (link)

I extremely doubt the people are handpicked.

Look the groups seem reasonably representative of GOP voters at least from my understanding of average GOP voters.

I get the impression that some people don’t like the focus groups because of them picking Romney as a winner of a few debates. But who really cares about that.

What I’m looking at is ratings of messaging and the individuals talking about what is important to them. That is valuable information!

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

Just wondering where he gets his people from.

gekster (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:51PM EST (link)

It would be nice to know.

They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.

We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway

Ok folks, 2012 is here. Get involved

Yeah I'm Not Positive Where

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:12PM EST (link)

While I would find interesting to find out how, I’m also not particularly worried about it.

I think most of the criticism towards the Luntz focus groups would subside if people just realized that they aren’t supposed to be as scientific as a poll, but that they serve other useful purposes. And I’m not directing that at you, I’m just saying that towards people that criticize the existence of them on Fox.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

 
 

I think the Luntz group named Gingrich as winner of Vegas debate

Common_Cents (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 11:35AM EST (link)

Didn’t see them in the tank for Romney.

Yeah, prob not statistically relevant with a small group and would also like to know how they select panelists, but the qualitative input is interesting on reasons why people make their choices.

Heck, I’ll take a panel of whatever selected randoms over the propagandist panels of “experts” shilling on other networks. The bias of the many talking head idiots is disgusting.

The most important liberation left to perform in the world, is not china, syria, n. korea etc…… it is the liberation of American people from the brainwashing of the leftist media and education system. Why nobody but Gingrich gets this, is beyond me.

Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from, behind, the Back Nine.
Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.

5555555

wonkish1 (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 12:37PM EST (link)

Well put

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

 
 
 
 
 

Forgot to add

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 3:35PM EST (link)

the most obvious point. You can easily manipulate these focus groups to get any result you wish based merely upon who you select to participate. As an example, Megan Kelly had a group of 10 on her show last week who she interviewed. 9 of the 10 said they were going to vote for Romney. Huh? Why does Fox do these Romney puff pieces? Are they that much in the tank for him?

Look Luntz Isn't Stacking His Focus Groups

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:45PM EST (link)

They should be pretty representative.

Just don’t think that the % of hands that go up saying x person won the debate is in any way scientific.

It seems as though everybody focuses on that one question and then gets ticked and stomps their feet claiming that Luntz is being fair.

While the getting a general idea of who the focus group thinks was the winner is useful, that isn’t the value of a focus group. The value of a focus group is to get a sense of all non activist primary voters think. That’s it. Its not supposed to be all scientific with controlled variables and everything else.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

 
 
 
 

Both sources cited

sunshinek67 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:37PM EST (link)

are Romney supporters, the latter of which is a pseudo-analyst. Next~

 
 

"They"...

macbookben Thursday, October 20th at 2:16PM EST (link)

aren’t taking Herman Cain seriously because they ARE consultants…which he has very little use for.

 

The many clowns of Cain

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 2:18PM EST (link)

http://ideas.time.com/2011/10/20/is-herman-cain-the-most-unctuous-black-man-alive/

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


Time calls Cain an "Uncle Tom".

NightTwister (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:22PM EST (link)

Wow, big surprise. And you’re OK with this? I think you misunderstand what it means to be a conservative. I don’t like Cain’s policies, but his race has nothing to do with it.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill

Who said I agreed

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 2:24PM EST (link)

Who said I agreed with this. Just point a very harsh article on Cain. Boy a bit testy are we

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


So if you don't agree with it,

Melody Warbington (rwm52) (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:10PM EST (link)

what was your purpose in posting an article that does nothing but attack Cain and Justice Thomas because they don’t fit the liberal definition of “black”?

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things. (John 4:25)

They think any attack on Cain is good, because it boosts someone else

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:15PM EST (link)

Namely Perry

too bad they don't get

timkellogg Friday, October 21st at 2:05AM EST (link)

that it helps Romney more than Perry

 
 
 
 
 
 

Am I going to have to vote 3rd party again like 2004?

logus (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:26PM EST (link)

If Romney or Newt get the nomination, I seriously doubt I’ll vote for them in the general.

If Cain or Perry get it, I might vote for them.

Sadly, there are no great, perfect candidates, but man, I’m not satisfied with any of this lot.

I’ll take my principles over political pragmatism any day of the week, even if that means Obama would win again.

“The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable.”
James A. Garfield

Wading Across

You appear to be lost.

NightTwister (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:29PM EST (link)

It’s clear you thought you were on a different website than RedState.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill

Nope. Not lost.

logus (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:44PM EST (link)

I’m just preaching principles over pragmatism, which is what it seems most here wind up vacilating towards when it comes time to pull the levers in the booth.

I have seen, heard and read many people who talk about being conservatives and more importantly Christians, and not really Republicans, but then say they’ll support a candidate they don’t like because they don’t like the other one even more – specifically because they’re a Democrat.

Yes, elections have consequences, but if we really claim to be principled people, we’d be willing to face the fire for our principles.

Had Kerry won in 2004 I still would not have felt bad voting for the Constitution Party. Useless, throw-away vote? Perhaps. But I felt sick to my stomach giving in to pragmatism in 2008 voting for McCain.

Perhaps the United States needed Obama to help it reach rock bottom. Perhaps we’re not at rock bottom yet. Maybe, hopefully when we do reach rock bottom we find that we turn to God and not the Republican party, conservatives, a particular candidate or the Tea Party to save us and get us out of the rut we’re in.

I think the United States got the president it deserved in 2008 and perhaps it deserves it again next year.

When we have candidates like Gingrich, Romney, Huntsman, Paul, Bachmann and even Perry or Cain, I feel like we’re back in 1995.

We got a Dole in 96 and 08 and it looks like we’re going to get another Dole for 12. Blech.

I’m not saying we need another Reagan. There can never be another Reagan, just as there cannot be another Washington, but it’d be nice to see someone like them. I just do not see that right now, and that being the case, my principles and ideologies are far more important to me than voting down a party line, even if I do tend to vote Republican/conservative.

If people who claim to be conservatives but cannot stand Romney say they’ll support him and vote for him if he gets the nomination, then they are pragmatists first, not principled conservatives.

If this site is foremostly about Republicans and the Republican party and pragmatism, you might be right. I might be lost here. But Erick and others here I believe have said before that they stand for principles, values and such ideologies before party.

If that’s the case, then you have to be willing to lose, to understand that winning and politics is not everything in life… otherwise, when you vote pragmatically, you’re voting just the same as those who voted on the basis of pure hope in 2008 for Obama.

If Romney wins the nomination but it’s clear that the majority of conservatives refuse to vote for him in 2012, then you send a very clear message to the RNC and you take the hits that come, bearing it with zero guilt because you know you put principles first before politics.

A bar too high? Perhaps, but as a Christian that is my daily effort, to strive for that high mark.

Respectfully submitted.

“The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable.”
James A. Garfield

Wading Across

3rd party strategy just doesn't wash here.

NightTwister (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:25PM EST (link)

Just thought I’d point that out in case you were interested in staying here. Those that have done it before had a fairly short lifespan here.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill

I know.

logus (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 3:01PM EST (link)

I’ve actually been around here for well over a year at least and have commented a fair amount.

I’m not a strict 3rd partier. I vote my conscience, not for who I think can win. My issue with the majority of the people who vote and/or follow politics is that they assume voting is only about winning, like it’s a sports competition. The only problem is that people then shelve their principles in favor of pragmatism so that they can “win”.

When people operate under the assumption that you can only vote either or and not this, that, also, etc. of course the third party strategy will never work. The two party system is not set in stone, it’s not codified into law. It’s the way things worked out and then some people made sure stayed that way and others followed along. Only problem is that in many respects you often wind up with two sides of the same coin and as has happened over the last twenty years, very little difference between either primary candidate when you plot their whole platform on an xy chart.

I stick around here because I don’t argue for only voting 3rd party. I realize that I’m probably the sole bird here talking like this but I figure I last here because I put my faith before my politics and don’t bash or harp – at least I try not to do so. A lot of Republican candidates are perfectly fine in my estimation.

“The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable.”
James A. Garfield

Wading Across

 
 
 
 
 

Newt stands alone

rmacgilv Thursday, October 20th at 2:28PM EST (link)

Let’s face it,Newt is easily the smartest candidate and if it wasn’t for his “baggage” he would be the nominee.That’s why Obama through his media lackeys savaged him early in the game.Guess what? We’re all going to have to get over his sexual trangressions and the sooner he confronts the issue head on and out loud the better.He could destroy Obama one on one and Obama knows it.This country is in trouble and we’re not going to find the perfect human being so let’s quit shooting ourselves in the foot and get over it.Newt has to make the first move and open himself up in the next debate for the onslaught of the media.I bet if he takes the chance the country forgives him and we get rid of Obama with a real conservative.

 

Early States

bizzyblog Thursday, October 20th at 2:30PM EST (link)

“He’s running a national campaign convinced that his charisma, energy, and message will get people out in the early states as he builds momentum.”

Which explains why he’s up by 7 or 8 points in Iowa and IIRC up in SC and FL, and second and gaining fast in NH.

Cain’s main mission until 4-6 weeks before the IA caucuses (basically, Thanksgiving or shortly thereafter) is to make people aware he exists, which half of people still don’t know — which is why the book tour and interviews strategy is perfect.

Campaigning 101 says that the ground game isn’t important until 2-3 weeks out, and he needs 2-3 weeks to get it ready. Why is it any different now?

 

If I Hear "59 Point Plan" One More Time...

Spartan4Life (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:31PM EST (link)

…I’ll scream.

Doesn’t this just support the narrative about why so many of us don’t trust Romney? He seems like an overeager technocrat to me. Will he insist that Congress pass all 59 points at once, like Obama did? As long as the Dems keep 41 seats in the Senate I’m sure it will be DOA.

We don’t need a 59 point plan. 3 or 4 good ideas well implemented will do the trick.

59

tailfins1959 Thursday, October 20th at 2:49PM EST (link)

I would like the 59 plan if it had tailfins and a V-8 ;-)

You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf

 
 

"King: Romney's rebuttal may hurt him"

sunshinek67 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:32PM EST (link)

This aired on CNN yesterday.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2011/10/19/jk-romney-illegal-gardener.cnn

 

Consultants and the media want to select our nominee

unclefred (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:34PM EST (link)

Consultants because it is their lifeblood, they sell opinions in the off season and their services during the campaign cycle. The MSM because they live in the pocket of the Democrat party.

There was an interesting analysis of Cain’s campaign by Robert Costa on National Review Online. It makes interesting reading and suggests that Cain’s lack of a traditional organization may not be the death knell that many assume.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/280725/can-cain-do-it-robert-costa

This is far from a two man race. The pundits, consultants, and media have something in common. They see our national politics through the lens of DC, and perhaps a couple of urban centers. Even when they venture out into the real world in which the rest of us live, their understanding of the depth of anger and purpose that pervades the electorate is blunted by their presumption of greater experience, knowledge, or wisdom.

When Hawaii is not a safe state for Senate democrats:
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/10/hi-sen-tightens-up.html
you are looking at a year when anything can happen.

Maybe Cain’s lack of organization dooms his chances, maybe Newt’s baggage is to heavy, but this already an election cycle unlike any in my lifetime. At this point At least for the top four it’s anyones race.

 

Romney Agrees with Obama About $250K

Spartan4Life (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:35PM EST (link)

Isn’t one of his proposals to cut the Cap Gains rate but only for those making less than $250K a year? If it is a good idea, why shouldn’t it be for anyone?

I think this is what we will get from Romney. More tinkering around the edges of a system that is failing.

$200k

wonkish1 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 2:47PM EST (link)

Might be a stretch to say that one proposal is his definition of middle class, but yes the presence of a cutoff there is a little bit annoying.

“First you win the argument, then you win the vote.” Margaret Thatcher

Conservative Innovations I Want To See Succeed
http://rightnetwork.com/ –New conservative TV network
http://actright.com/ –Fundraising hub for all things conservative
http://connect.freedomworks.org/ — Connecting Tea Partiers around the country
http://procinct.net/ –GOTV walk/call lists
http://www.citizensunited.org/ –Their documentary arm

 
 

Consolidation Depends on the Right Platform

awkingsley Thursday, October 20th at 2:41PM EST (link)

Many of us, perhaps a growing number, really want Ron Paul’s Budget Plan and brain in the race. He has the best Budget Plan – better than the Tea Party Plan. All of the tax discussion is a turnoff, as we do not want more taxes, and restructuring taxes looks dangerous. The greatest problem for our country is the fiscal crisis, and Ron Paul is the only one who has a platform that solves it.

The other candidates are not providing detailed plans for solving our economic problems. They are all looking very anemic and less competent by comparison to Ron Paul. We need good solid non-socialist, non- New World Order leadership. We want the most competent guy with the best plan for president, or our country is gone.

 

OK, now let's get serious...

racvt Thursday, October 20th at 2:43PM EST (link)

and at the next debate, instead of jumping on each other, hopefully, the candidates will at least attempt to indicate what they like about the other guy’s tax plan and then indicate what they would do differently.
It’s about setting a tone of adults so that all viewers come away with the impression that, whoever, is the ultimate nominee, that it’s REPUBLICANS with the ideas and who are willing to look for and seek the best… FOR THE NATION…. and not about beating the other Republican.

racvt

RACTV

tnguy Thursday, October 20th at 3:08PM EST (link)

I just can’t agree with you. I don’t think I can vote for many of these people, and there is virtually nothing Romney could say or do at this point to win my vote.

It is not just about beating Obama. If we put Obama-lite in the White House, in my opinion, we’re no better off in the long run, and maybe even in worse condition.

Conservatives need to start drawing a line in the sand and not conceding to Republicans who flippantly cross it. I am through holding my nose and voting for reprehensible candidates.

 
 

My IDEAL ticket...

cwfoster Thursday, October 20th at 2:44PM EST (link)

Would be Cain/Gingrich, but I would settle for Gingrich/Cain. They are both largly trying to observe the 11th Commandment and if they do, it would make them the logical choices for each other whoever comes out on top. A two way split can still defeat a 25% at the polls, but a three way split gives it to Romney. Bachmann disappointed me with her Guardasil attack on Perry, and her “devil in the details” comment about 999, so she’s toast, now the only way to redeem herself is to NOT get behind the RINO when she drops out! Unfortunately that still leave Perry, Newt and Cain. The only remaining hope we have is that the chicanery being indulged in by the Romneyites pushing the primaries up to lock in delegates before consolidation occurs get exposed and the resulting backlash erodes the 25% that support him now!

 

I want the man who has done the job already...

rowdydfw Thursday, October 20th at 2:47PM EST (link)

Who else standing on that stage has done the job?

1. Brought record breaking jobs into the state during a recession, technology, automakers, cut the deals gotten the jobs.

2. Implemented risk pools for the non-insured excluded for pre-existing conditions before anybody else even thought of it.

3. Fought off the leftests who wanted to imlement a state sales tax and kept taxes low.

4. Gave Texas parents an opt-out (four years before Gardasil approved) of any immunizations they deemed dangerous to their children since 1950 when immunizations were required. As the leftists tried to make you believe he was forcing immunizations on little girls.

5. Dealt with a 1200 mile border, mostly wilderness, and put more Texas boots on the ground to stop the influx and protect.

6. Implemented tort reform, loser pay. Who started implementing tort reform when he was a democrat and got drummed out of the party for it. I was standing in the gallery watching the Texas Trial Lawyers trying to stare down the legislators that year.

7. Who fights the EPA off our resources and is willing to kick them to the curb.

8. Who’s been elected 5 times in his state because of his record of successes and his ability to admit when he makes mistakes and corrects them.

9. Who’ll damn the consequences and call you heartless when he’s trying to implement a good outcome for our state with children brought here through no fault of our own. AND who aren’t going anywhere because Americans will not have the guts to march 20 million men, women and children back across the southern border. Have any of you actually heard ANY candidate say what their solution is after we secure the border? I haven’t heard any republican even willing to discuss the subject of a solution after it’s secured.

Who else on that stage has actually done the job??? NONE OF THEM!

Mitt Romney is a loser, the mill towns had disappeared and he did nothing to get them back and they’re still disappearing party because of RomneyCare. He claims he produced jobs, but all he did was quick sleazy money deals that fired off the old employees and hired cheap new ones. Voila! Success! Cheap easy money success.

Has Bachmann done what Perry has done? NO. And when she turned into a political hack, with no facts, she turned me off. Has Newt? NO. I love Newt’s scholarship and knowledge. Has Santorum? NO. Rather unstable. Has Ron Paul? NO. Not a republican, he’s a libertarian. Has Cain? NO. I like Cain a lot. He’s my second choice.

Haha, Can you tell I’m a Perry fan? That’s because I’ve watched Texas grow as other states are devastated.

Rick Perry is the best person for the job

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 3:01PM EST (link)

I totally agree with you. Only one person has the experience and proven track record of what this country needs now and a proven track record of being conservative – That is Clearly Rick Perry.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 

Mill town loss is a good thing!

tailfins1959 Thursday, October 20th at 3:03PM EST (link)

The mills can be converted to loft apartments. I suspect Romney will do OK if elected. No one is perfect. This process is a good thing; whomever wins should welcome the chance to have sparring partners before the real boxing match. I think Romney is being dumped on two much. Massachusetts is economically doing very well. Rick Perry has done some excellent things in Texas, but finding work there is not that easy. Furthermore, Texas has a reputation for police brutality. Be prepared to defend the cracks in the Texas economy. Perry vs Romney or Romney vs Perry: different, but not better. Both have problems.

You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf

 

Except for the issue of instate tuition

unclefred (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:31PM EST (link)

I get that Perry has a number of pluses. Unfortunately he has a devastating minus, his support of instate tuition for illegals and the wink and nod at amnesty inherent in that position and the wording of the Texas statute, is a huge problem for the average primary voter. I am not talking about political activists like the people here, rather the regular Republican that is gong to vote in the primary.

Activists like us can split policy hairs and debate the details. to a regular voter the discord in Perry’s position screams inauthenticity. I don’t like his position, but if it came to a choice in the primary between Perry and Mittens in a real two man contest, I’d vote for Perry in a heartbeat. Unfortunately for Perry, and, depending on how the primary goes, possibly us, regular voters are not so pragmatic.

Do your homework on in-state tuition before making it a minus PLEASE

cbartlett Thursday, October 20th at 6:51PM EST (link)

One more time —- Perry supported this act of legislation that was passed by 181 out of 185 members of the Texas legislature – which included many, many Republican conservatives. Understand that NONE of them, including Perry, care if any other states or the entire country ever does this – they passed it because it’s right for Texas and Perry has stated this more than once. It’s NOT amnesty for heaven’s sake – it’s only an opportunity for children of illegal immigrants who were brought here by their parents and had no choice. The State of Texas, by federal mandate, has had to pay for these kids public education and usually health care and a host of other welfare entitlements. These kids are merely receiving an opportunity to receive in-state tuition RATES, not scholarships, to at least give them a chance at a better life and attempt to break the cycle of poverty. (BTW – Their parents have been paying sales taxes and property taxes via rent payments all these years, which is the primary source of funding for public education in Texas.) The alternative is that these kids drop out of high school, have an anchor baby so that they can stay here, and then continue to suck on the system for one more generation because they have no education, no skills and no job. There are rules involved to qualify – they have to have attended (for at least 3 years) and graduated from a Texas high school, apply to and be accepted to a state college or university (which means good grades, good behavior, good SAT scores) and initiate the process of applying for US Citizenship. They might qualify for federal student loans like any other student, but taxpayers aren’t just writing checks for them to go (like California does!) Texas is trying to come up with creative ways to deal with this problem since the stupid federal government is NOT doing their job to keep these illegals and their families from coming across the border in the first place.

And I agree with rowdydfw above on Question #8: I haven’t heard one word on solutions from ANY of these candidates on the immigration problem. Everyone agrees we need to get the federal government to do their job and enforce the border. We can argue about fences that cost billions of dollars that will never be high enough to not get over, or low enough to not tunnel under. If you don’t have guns pointed at them, the barbed wire is a waste of money. (Ever seen a prison without a guard tower?!) What is the “real” conservative position on immigration? Is just saying “I’m anti-amnesty enough”? Doesn’t someone need to ask what they intend to do about the millions already here? Seems like a huge elephant in the room and I don’t see anyone acknowledging it. Erick – have you ever addressed this issue? Did I miss it?

“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” Abraham Lincoln

 

What part of "the vast majority of Texas voters supported the law"

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:56PM EST (link)

don’t you get???
We are not talking policy wonks here, but regular people who vote. They are the ones who supported it. And their elected representatives voted for it overwhelmingly.. How often does that happen? Really?
And saying it is a nod at amnesty is just not true. There is a big difference between charging someone money to enter college and granting them amnesty. Or, don’t you understand that????

What is the point of Texans paying for the education of illegals

Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:24PM EST (link)

who have no right to work there legally when they graduate? It is pretty clear there already is defacto amnesty in Texas and that law proves it. I think I understand that.

Let’s talk real world here for a second. Republicans have no freaking clue what to do with all the illegal aliens living in this country. People talk around the issue, they argue only at the edges, they are afraid to confront the fact that the law has been broken, there are real ramifications, and no one is willing to do a thing about it.

Molon Labe!

You have a point

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:37PM EST (link)

And many of those graduates do have a hard time getting jobs.
As a matter of fact almost any college graduate will have trouble getting a job.

It starts with the federal govt:

Any child, regardless of immigration status, is eligible for free primary and secondary education under a 1982 Supreme Court decision (Plyler v. Doe). The Supreme Court feared that denying children an education might create a permanent underclass of illegal immigrants who would probably remain in the United States the rest of their lives. Discrimination against the children would punish them for the acts of their parents, since the children had no choice in entering the United States. The denial of an education to these children would stamp them with an “enduring disability” that would harm both them and the State all their lives.

Do you think we should change the law at the federal level to deny
eduction to all K-12 education? Here is some good information on the subject. Read it – a real eye opener.

The Burden of Plyler v. Doe

I guess all the illegals going to college will teach the every growing number
of K-12 illegal students.

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

that certainly adds some color to the issue izone

Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:03PM EST (link)

We have one party who is planning on a permanent majority based on illegal immigration, anchor babies, etc. We have another party that has no clue what to do about an illegal invasion that is already a fait accompli. We are paying for the sins of our fathers. The big losers will be the Americans who grow up in a poorer, more debt ridden nation, a nation with less a sense of self.

Molon Labe!

 
 
 
 

Texas is not the only state that offers in-state tuition

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:05PM EST (link)

Thirteen states have enacted legislation to allow long-term unauthorized immigrant students to become eligible for in-state tuition if they meet certain requirements: California, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Washington and Wisconsin.

The state laws permit these students to become eligible for in-state tuition if they graduate from state high schools, have two to three years residence in the state, and apply to a state college or university. The student may be required to sign an affidavit promising to seek legal immigration status. These requirements for unauthorized immigrant students are stricter than the residency requirements for out-of-state students to gain in-state tuition.

When students without legal residency apply for college they are asked for a social security number and citizenship status. While they may still be allowed to attend, they are not eligible for federal aid until they gain legal immigration status.

Any child, regardless of immigration status, is eligible for free primary and secondary education under a 1982 Supreme Court decision (Plyler v. Doe). The Supreme Court feared that denying children an education might create a permanent underclass of illegal immigrants who would probably remain in the United States the rest of their lives. Discrimination against the children would punish them for the acts of their parents, since the children had no choice in entering the United States. The denial of an education to these children would stamp them with an “enduring disability” that would harm both them and the State all their lives.

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

I freaking give up

Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:40PM EST (link)

I guess our party is going to go squishy on immigration. Well I hope you all really mean it, because it will not help us politically at all. If you believe in open borders and illegal rights, that is fine, but don’t do it because you think you have to do so just to support a man who is barely a shadow of GWB, because it will not work.

You can not out liberal a Democrat. It doesn’t matter how squishy we get when we defend illegal immigration, calling high school grads “children” and saying charging out of state tuition is “denying them an education”. Heck, we can call for amnesty now, and it won’t get us more than a smattering of Hispanic votes. The Dems will always have those who self identify as oppressed minorities, it doesn’t matter what we do or say.

We have “conservatives” on this site attacking Cain’s 999 plan because it will “raise taxes on the poor”, instead of realizing our party and nation can not stand if more people don’t get skin in the game. We will never be able to reduce government if the majority does not have to pay for government. This nation is on a precipice, we are running out of “next times”.

I know there are a lot of people on this site and their are a lot of opinions. But I have been here for almost 6 years, and I have NEVER felt the sense of FEAR I do now. This site is permeating fear, not confidence in the Tea Party movement, not pride in the 2010 victories, not a sense that we are about to take all branches of government, no, what I get from this place recently is FEAR.

btw, I won’t give up, but I won’t feel compelled to engage people who are ready to give it all away for nothing.

Molon Labe!

555 Doc.

luvnthebigsites (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:18PM EST (link)

Yea I’m starting to get worried myself. (And have only been reading for a year and a half). To quote lineholder we can not let the media define the narrative this time around, From my view out here in the nose bleeds they are up by 2 touchdowns already on immigration and (real) tax reform…. Sigh.

Hey I know, Lets stir up a hornets nest on abortion! Yea we can put some points on the board with that one!

“Ask not what your candidate can do for you, but what you can do for your candidate”. Andrew Breitbart CPAC 2012.

 
 

And this ruling (in Plyler v. Doe), izoneguy, needs to be challenged

westcoastpatriette (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:43PM EST (link)

and the impact demolished as the ruling itself is, on its face unconstitutional, IMO. The court was split 5-4 and the dissenting judges were pretty appalled at the ruling as there is no right for illegal aliens to be entitled to anything. The majority were a liberal bunch who decided to impose another unfunded mandate on Americans through judicial fiat. The ruling should be challenged legislatively as it was an outrageous decision that has contributed to the undermining of the rule of law not to mention forcing Americans to subsidize non-citizen’s children’s education

 
 
 
 

The Perfect Conservative

gizmo Thursday, October 20th at 2:53PM EST (link)

is not going to come along! Even the Gipper had flaws, although I can’t think of any right now, except that he trusted Congress for Spending Cuts/Tax increases…

We need to be careful not to “eat” our own! Let’s pick someone that’s a strong leader with a backbone, who can articulate his leadership, fiscally conservative, has strong morals (socially conservative).

With ANYONE there’s going to be grey areas, some skeletons in the closet, but let a candidate stand by what he’s saying now, prove where he’s at now.

Romney says & does what he needs to to get elected. He’s proved that over & over.

Perry has made mistakes, admitted it & corrected himself. With this education thing, it “seems” to be a bandaid for a large problem – 1st of all, how many illegals are going to take advantage of this? I don’t believe that the hispanics are fighting to get into college anyhow, are they? I’m speaking from what I see in our neighborhood, I don’t know what the national stats are on this…
As for the Gore/Demo stuff, the 1st person I ever voted for was Barry Commoner! Yet, I’m probably as far right now as is Rush or Hannity, maybe even pretty close to Beck & Savage.. People grow up & open their eyes…

Cain has a LOT of chuzpa & financial business smarts AND a LOT of personality. He needs to “mature” his speech & make sure he is really sure of what he’s saying.

Bachman really did ME in because of her HPV crap. I love her in so many ways, BUT…

Then there’s Newt… brilliant, articulate, debator, experience… but where is he on social issues & can he hold to his stands without compromising…

 

ummmm, anyone notice Perry is at 7% in Iowa?

Massachusetts_Transplant Thursday, October 20th at 3:02PM EST (link)

which puts him in 6th! As terrible as Mitt supposedly is, he is at 21%. Cain is leading right now with 28%. Sure, Iowa is a different animal and organization is key and Perry will have cash to build one – but regardless of the wishful thinking of this post – if Perry finishes behind Romney in Iowa and then gets blown out in NH – does Perry have a viable path to victory at that point? I am guessing that a bad loss in Iowa will hurt him somewhat in South Carolina – though he’ll still be favored, but with Michigan, Florida, and Nevada up next – can Perry bounce back in any of those states?

We won’t know until January 15th, but I wonder if his fundraising has stalled out a bit – as you have to think a lot of his early haul came easy and quickly in August/September when he was riding high (38%) in the polls and hadn’t debated yet.

Sorry to be the realist here.

Massachusetts_Transplant, I have a history question for you.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:08PM EST (link)

What were Howard Dean’s numbers in Iowa prior to the now-famous Dean Scream?

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

That's hard to spin

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:11PM EST (link)

Grasping for straws with that comparison

Spin? Nah. Just pointing out the race is still wide open.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:28PM EST (link)

Thank you for clarifying your motives for being here, though.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Your welcome

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:35PM EST (link)

I’m here to defend Cain because I’ve been reading Redstate for a while and the pile on Cain is beyond absurd.

Perry supporters don’t even cheerlead Perry anymore, they ignore anything wrong with him and attack all other candidates to raise Perry.

But yeah, the race is wide-open. Anything can happen… That’s why I don’t believe it’s just a two man race between Perry and Romney like everyone says.

The problem is, Cain has now..

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:57PM EST (link)

stepped on his {tongue} twice in the last week. Badly.

Poll numbers won’t reflect that. Yet.

I like Cain, but I’m concerned that, due to the lack of depth (or money) this is the beginning of the end for him.

It’ll be interesting to see what polling shows next week, when the rest of the world catches up to Red State.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 
 
 
 
 

Path for anyone else?

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 3:08PM EST (link)

Tell me what viable path Cain has and he has only a fraction of the money and infrastructure that Perry has?

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


Uhm, votes?

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:12PM EST (link)

That tends to be the most viable path.

Votes do count

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 3:17PM EST (link)

So votes are the viable path but arn’t for Perry? That doesn’t make sense. Just because Cain’s number or Romney’s numbers are high right now doesn’t mean that when the ad wars start and the real gloves come off that those numbers aren’t going to change. To think otherwise is foolish.,

We got a longway to go and money is going to be one of the keys to being competitive.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


People like Cain more than Perry

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:26PM EST (link)

I don’t think money or acting ugly (even if it’s justified) in debates change that.

Cain another Obama

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 3:27PM EST (link)

Reminds so much of why we got Obama. Everyone loved the guy, he could inspire you in his speeches….for goodness sake people wake up!

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


Cain another Obama? Lol

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:31PM EST (link)

This is why we can’t take Perry supporters who attack Cain seriously.

Yep, Cain = Obama

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 3:37PM EST (link)

And why we can’t take Cain supporters attacking Perry seriously, when Cain himself is an empty suit with no record.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


Sigh

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:41PM EST (link)

I’m not sure why I’m responding, but I will.

I don’t want to attack Perry nor do I care about Perry. I prefer Perry to Romney and will vote for Perry against Obama.

But Perry supporters are worse than Ron Paul supporters. You all act bitter and have to play as attack dogs.

Cain is a good conservative and always has been. To compare him with Obama destroys a person’s credibility who makes the claim.

Sigh, too

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 3:49PM EST (link)

It wouldn’t be so bad if someone could please put out and front what makes Cain so highly qualified, more qualified than a governor with a track record of 10 years of experience…all I can see is Cain seems to be inspiring in his speeches, great at rhetoric (I fell for it too, I like Cain) ….that doesn’t cut for me. Cain needs to step back and gain experience before running for the highest office in our land.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 
 
 
 
 

Do you think Obama is going to hold back on Cain in the debates?

conservativemusician Thursday, October 20th at 3:42PM EST (link)

Get real. He will expose Cain for the inexperienced populist he really is. His views are all over the place and now today, we find out he is pro-choice, whereas Perry has a long track record of being pro-life. Who do you think, then, will garner more votes with the conservative base on this issue? Romney? He’s the same as Cain and in many ways worse. The true conservative choice is becoming more and more clear to me and it ain’t Cain or Romney.

Sorry, but just because you like Cain better doesn’t mean he is more qualified. Frankly, I’m tired of the limp-wristed metro-sexual feminized mold they are trying to make our candidates follow – especially Perry. He’s criticized for being too laid back, and then he’s criticized for being too aggressive and unpresidential by wannabes like Palin who sit on the sidelines pontificating and taking pot shots. I liked GWBs swagger and I like Perry’s as well. I want someone authentic, not a poll-tested plastic fake like Romney.

Everyone is wringing their hands and worried if Perry can match up with Obama. Well, I got my answer the other night. He’s a pit bull and he’s not afraid to go after the other candidates when necessary. Obama would have his hands full and then some because Perry is just going to get better and better the more he debates and by that time, everyone is going to know how he stands on the issues, which is in stark contrast to the liberal statist that Obama is. Perry is far more conservative than either Cain or Romney and it’s just a matter of time before most of the conservative base figures this out. The process began at the last debate and it’s a beautiful thing.

"Do you think Obama is going to hold back on Cain in the debates?" Do you think Perry will "throw up on himself" in a debate against Obama?

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:58PM EST (link)

Perry can’t debate. Period.

He’s either lethargic or comes across like a horse’s behind.

He has no sweet spot and he’s increasingly unlikeable by the public when they view his debates. I don’t know how “conservative” he is because he strikes me as George W. Bush part II and Georgie wasn’t conservative.

LOL watchandlearn.

conservativemusician Thursday, October 20th at 8:42PM EST (link)

Romney and the others have been pounding Perry since he entered the race on the in-state tuition for children of illegals issue, but no one in the media or the conservative talking heads says they come off like “horse’s behinds”, even though their attacks have been pretty brutal (i.e. the Romney hit piece video on Perry yesterday that they they took off YouTube).

Romney had it coming from Perry the way I see it, and his real vetting is long overdue. Also, by the 2nd half of the debate, most of them were parroting Perry’s position on how to secure the border, so Perry was making his points quite effectively on a debate stage in front of millions of people, wouldn’t you agree?

Perry “lethargic”? Not sure what debate you were watching, but he was engaged and ready to take on all comers on Tuesday night. It was refreshing to me to see him finally answer and respond so forcefully to his critics.

You say that Perry strikes you as GWB part 2. Well for me, Romney has a lot of the same characteristics as Obama in that he’s a slick talker, has many liberal positions, doesn’t say much when he talks, and runs away from his liberal record. The thing that strikes as the most common trait between Perry and GWB is how dumb everyone in the media thinks Perry is, which is totally false. If you have seen his recent interviews and read his energy plan, he is articulate and his plans look very complete and well thought out.

With all due respect to Neil down thread and his difference with Rush on the importance of debates, I’m not looking for the slickest debater when picking a candidate. We already have a slick debater in the WH, so what good has that done for the country? With Romney, I fear it would be more of the same.

Perry is not a perfect candidate, but neither are any of the other candidates (especially Romney who I view as the most flawed candidate of all of them). I think Perry is far more conservative than either Romney or Cain and I also believe that his core political instincts are conservative. This is he main reason why I support Perry and why I will not be supporting Romney in the primaries.

 
 

Rush nailed it today regarding debates; they don't affect outcomes; they are simply done to entertain the press

circlegranch Thursday, October 20th at 4:11PM EST (link)

Rather than beat up our candidate of choice for something said or not said during a debate, we need to go after the media. Today on Laura Ingrahm’s show her sub aired an interview she did w/ Haley Barbour. She was in full attack mode on Perry claiming he should not have gone to a Bloomberg debate and say he would be announcing his financial plan later. Of course, Ms. I didn’t acknowledge that AFTER that Bloomberg debate, Bloomberg.com announced Perry as “American’s Jobs Governor”. Apparently, it wasn’t such a bad idea on his part afterall, and of course, she said nothing about the well received jobs/energy plan he rolled out at the end of last week. Nope, nothing positive at all. But don’t you love it when you then hear these talking heads say, “I haven’t made up my mind yet on which candidate I’ll support.” Could have fooled us.

The media is the problem. We allow them to set the agenda, tell us all the good about certain candidates and all the bad about others and they pound us with their opinions all day then call us at night and ask us trick polling questions.

EE’s Horse Race Analysis today is good as usual. I think Mrs. Bachmann needs to come clean. If she’s in this to get hugs and kisses from Mitt the way she did from Wayne Newton, then tell us that. Tell the truth. Is she the spoiler and playing a game so her debt is paid off and she can trot back to the House or if she’s really and truly a candidate, then explain why you have a vendetta against one person and forgive others of any and all infractions? It can’t be just about money. {Perry’s doing good right now. It can’t be about principle because she isn’t critical of Mitt’s liberal views on social issues before he decided to get all conservative on us. So what gives with her? Of all people, she’d be the one out there today demanding that Cain explain himself on this abortion dust up if it had happened to Perry. If he had said that exact same thing, she’d be all over it. She is increasingly losing her authenticity and if she is playing games it will likely hurt her re-election chances in the House. This is exactly the stuff that makes the public lose faith and trust in politicians.

We’ll suffer through the rest of these political game shows known as debates, but as Rush says, they are more about giving the media something to harp on than anything else. He reminded us today that Bush didn’t debate well against either Gore or Kerry, both of which had been touted as amazing debaters and of course, so much more intelligent. I know people that have yet to even watch debate so far this fall.

Comes down to a simple fact: support your candidate, send them a few bucks when you can and think, read and listen for yourself. Name one person you watch regularly on TV that is smarter than you or deserves to make your decisions with regards to voting.

I'm sorry but that's wishful thinking about debates

Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:13PM EST (link)

We wish the entire GOP electorate were so plugged in that the debates were irrelevant.

But many rely on television to get introduced to the candidates, whether we like it or not.

I like Rush, but he’s off the mark there.

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

 

Too many base their opinions of candidates on

uncmike Thursday, October 20th at 4:27PM EST (link)

what they hear from their favorite TV personalities rather than doing their own serious research. Some watch debates, but far more wait for the spinmeisters to tell them who “won” and who “lost.” That’s unfortunate because most of the spinmeisters have favorite candidates even though they claim they have not yet formed an opinion. In this case, many who are down on Perry are down on him because of some sound bite they picked up from TV–I have already run into several people who have simply parroted them back to me. Right now, I think this is hurting Perry because most of the sound bites are eminating from the so-called debates and the verdicts of the professional chattering class that Romney has won most or all of them.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Moot point at this juncture

evilleramsfan Thursday, October 20th at 3:19PM EST (link)

He ran over 30 % a month ago and can turn around quickly. Much of his success will no depend on these so-called debates, but what plans he puts forth and how the public responds to them. Much of Cain’s success came directly from Perry and could turn back again. Look at past primaries and lead-ups to them and you will see how volatile they are. The key for Perry at this point is to explain what happened in Texas in regards to the immigration issue. Anyone who educates themselves on the subject will realize that Perry did what he needed to do as a result of a failed federal policy on illegal immigration. The bill was overwhelmingly passed by the Texas legislature and a veto override would have been inevitable.

“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett

Cain made his own success...

unclefred (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:56PM EST (link)

Sure Perry’s mistakes made it easier, because a bunch of Perry’s soft support went looking for another choice, but Cain had to convince them that he is where they want to be. He did that with ideas. Cain’s been around since the beginning, I suspect that a lot of the people who are current Cain supporters were always attracted to his campaign but thought he could not win. He wasn’t a flavor of the month for these folks. When his polling numbers changed their perception of his chances they moved.

The majority of Cain’s support are very strongly in his camp. Unless he makes a major mistake, or it turns out that there is something really nasty in the closet, his support will be with him until he becomes untenable.

Don't buy it...

evilleramsfan Friday, October 21st at 1:36AM EST (link)

When Perry uttered the “heartless” comment, his polling numbers dived immediately and Cains shot up. Both men have a strong following and both of them have followers who generally believe anyone else is better than Romney. There is a fluid 15-20%, however that has drifted among the conservative candidates and is currently in the Cain camp. We’ll see if they stay after his recent comments and after the release of Perry’s plans….

“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett

 
 
 

Voted with your feet?

tailfins1959 Thursday, October 20th at 3:19PM EST (link)

If you didn’t live in Mass when Romney was on Beacon Hill, it seems you voted against him with your feet. Your nick is confusing since you are a transplant FROM Mass and not TO. The reason many conservatives are cranky is that they want someone as conservative as Obama is liberal. Kind of like it’s their turn. It is obvious that “I can’t have illegals, I’m running for office.” was a big, big blunder that is not yet factored in the polls. None of the GOP candidates are ready for the general election. The one who gets ready first will be the nominee. Perry took his lumps and fell on his face early and is the most likely to recover first.

You have the right to quit Toxic People. (They’re contagious.) ~Dr. SunWolf

 

Do early polls always reflect the actual vote???

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 6:58PM EST (link)

Didn’t think so!!!

 

Who won the Iowa Straw Poll?

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:07PM EST (link)

Where is Bachmann polling?

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

 
 

Kennedy's Unaired Romney Attack Ad of 1994

izoneguy (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:06PM EST (link)

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

 

Iowa - let me ask the question again

Massachusetts_Transplant Thursday, October 20th at 3:30PM EST (link)

seriously, I keep reading what seems less like an analysis of what is actually happening and rather what is really wishful thinking. “Perry is coming back, Mitt is hurting, and Cain’s plan isn’t surviving scrutiny”, Well – in reality, none of this is happening, except for in the world of Red State.

let me ask again, if Perry finishes behind Romney in Iowa what is his path to the nomination? Considering that he’ll get blown out in NH, and you could say Mitt is favored in NV, MI, and FL. All Perry would have is South Carolina. And if Cain or Gingrich wins Iowa – isn’t that devastating for Perry – as they’ll instantly become contenders in SC?

And someone above said that “organization and money” doesn’t matter. Well of course it matters. Who can forget that because he was raising money at a faster clip than Hillary by this time in 2007, and because their team was more strategic, Obama became the nominee.

Remember – one of the most devestating things that happened to Hillary was on Super Tuesday – when she narrowly won most of the big states including California, and of course she won Massachusetts which was big considering everyone there endorsed Obama. Yet when the “delegates” were counted that night, Hillary barely outpaced Obama, as he had the money to swamp her in overlooked places like the Colorado Caucus. Romney will either win this quickly – by coming in 2nd in Iowa, first in NH, 3rd in SC and first in MI, FL, and Nevada. Or he’ll win it in a longer, slower slog as he will have the organization in states voting after February 1st and simply pile up the delegates.

“Perry is coming back, Mitt is hurting, and Cain’s plan isn’t surviving scrutiny”, Well – in reality, none of this is happening

watchandlearn Thursday, October 20th at 3:46PM EST (link)

+1 for you sir.

Really? So the 9-9-9 *wasn't* getting shredded by CNN...

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:48PM EST (link)

I guess I must have been dreaming…

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

9-9-9 is easy to go after but hard to shred

unclefred (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:06PM EST (link)

All the conventional wisdom merchants have many different approaches to trying to convince voters 9-9-9 is a bad idea. Lately in looking at it from the perspective of certain small businesses, I have identified a couple of concerns related to the exact definition of direct labor and how that impact the actual percentage of income subject to the business income tax. Even if my concern turn out to be correct, a small change fixes that issue with little impact on the revenue.

Despite that as a practical matter 9-9-9 stands up to scrutiny quite well. For the vast majority of tax payers, 9-9-9 is a far better deal than the current system. Voter reaction to it has changed the debate on tax reform. It is the only reason that Perry is proposing a flat tax.

It's a starting point for conversation...

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:20PM EST (link)

a conversation that Perry is going to capitalize on with his new tax plan.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 
 
 
 

You're arguing ahead of evidence, Massachusetts.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:47PM EST (link)

Cain has now stepped on his {tongue} twice in the last 48 hours.

Perry got in his shot at Romney within the last 48 hours.

Polling will not reflect this change yet.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Acat in the eye of the average voter Perry's "shot" backfired...

unclefred (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:16PM EST (link)

Romney did himself a lot of damage with the reference to the charge about employing illegals being important when he was in an election race, but before he did that he clobbered Perry.

Romney slipped Perry’s punch, then landed four solid shots and drove them home. It’s fortunate for Perry that Romney made an unforced error at the end of that exchange, and Santorum and Newt clobbered him on RomneyCare. Only through the rosiest of glasses did Perry look good in that exchange.

As for Cain’s misstatements. you may be right that they will hurt him, but so far people don’t seem to expect him to give polished vetted political answers, and when he admits he misspoke they seem willing to accept it and move on. We’ll see.

The one who wins isn't the one who can punch hardest, unclefred.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:31PM EST (link)

It’s the one who can take the most damage and keep moving.

Perry’s a known quantity. Romney has spent this entire campaign hiding who he is.

Those who remember the 2008 edition (such as myself) have been wanting someone to ask some pointed questions since he got in .. but nobody has.

Long story short, the one hit Perry got in hurt Romney much more than the four hits Romney replied with.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

Perry's just getting warmed up...and he plays to win. nt.

westcoastpatriette (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:44PM EST (link)

Perry has some really good policies - shouldn't we be...

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 4:51PM EST (link)

You bet, Perry is just getting warm up.

Don’t foget Perry is coming out with his true flat tax plan next week. Assuming Perry pushes it hard, sells it well he should get a lot of traction from it. Perry has already given a great energy speech and policy.

Assuming he tax plan is good and we have reason to believe it is: Isn’t Perry coming out with some really good policies? Should we be looking and taking into account the policies these candidates are putting out?

Doesn’t a candidates potential policies mean anything or are we all so sold on a 999 pizza plan? I sure am not interested in a new national sales tax.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 
 
 
 

I am not sure average voters care . . .

Massachusetts_Transplant Thursday, October 20th at 4:17PM EST (link)

you have to remember that people on this site are not the average voter – even the average GOP voter, like a bodybuilder on steroids we are engaged at a much higher level. Therefore, in many ways, I don’t think average voters really care if Cain’s 9-9-9 plan doesn’t add up and CNN says its so – I think there is just something about Herman Cain that people like and that they want to support, and as long as he is out there being conservative and getting slammed by Laurence O’Donnell and Harry Belafonte, they’ll support him. And, while voters find Mitt Romney a little fake and programmed, they still see him as smart, presidential, articulate, and a businessman. And after the big hype, I think they see Rick Perry and see someone who is negative, not articulate, has performed poorly, and hasn’t yet presented a positive vision of what he would do for the country. Listen – I am a Mitt guy – and was prepared to support Perry if he won the nomination – especially with the Texas story. But after watching him in action, I have been terribly disapointed and fear he can’t win. Let the best man win, not the one that can be the most negative and sabatoge the rest of the field win.

Therefore, I think Perry is a bit boxed in right now – what is his brand? People going with who they like are going with Cain (brand: happy optimistic 999 guy), people who are going with their hearts are going with Newt (wonky – ideas guy), people going with their pragmatic side for the best candidate to beat Obama are going with Romney (brand: pragmatic businessman turnaround guy) and people settling for the guy they think is the only electable anti-Romney are going with Perry (brand: ??? meaner, more negative George W. Bush style guy????)

Red State says what it's about right at the top, Massachusetts.

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:35PM EST (link)

And thank you for calling the regulars roidheads. That’s a good way to win friends and influence people.

I do agree with you and Erick that Cain is an appealing personality and has, thus far, hit the Reagan “Morning in America” button most effectively.

However.

Due to his limited budget, Cain is also flying without a net. He cannot afford mistakes. If his numbers drop, he’s got no way to bring ‘em back.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

the problem with using analogies

Massachusetts_Transplant Friday, October 21st at 8:40AM EST (link)

is often that people like you don’t understand them.

My point about “steroids” was that people posting on this site and others like it are hyper-engaged beyond what the average GOP voter is. Therefore, its like political interest on sterorids. The point being – that most GOP voters are not following the race to the nth degree as everyone here is. Its that simple.

 
 
 
 

Too many liberals

polsciguy Thursday, October 20th at 3:37PM EST (link)

There are too many liberals taking a political science survey and they’re skewing the results. We need some conservative voices to balance it out.

You can find the survey here.
h ttps://stonybrooksurveys.us2.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_ab0TLwkFqO9r2qo”>

Buy some advertising space next time, cheapskate.

Moe Lane (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 3:51PM EST (link)
 

Iowa, reason to support Perry

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 3:42PM EST (link)

In a general sense you are making the case I have been stating. If we don’t get behind the most conservative candidate that has the resources (money and infrastructure) we are going to end up with Romney.

The point being, does Cain have any path, I don’t think so and if he did then I would clearly agrue Perry has a great and better than then Cain does (because of the money and infrastructure). Therefor is should be clear unless you really want Romney, Perry is the one we should get behind.

Thanks for making my case :-) .

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 

People disagree

daniel22 Thursday, October 20th at 3:44PM EST (link)

that is the point of debates and the public vetting process known as primaries and caucuses. This whole campaign seems to be run not by the candidates themselves but by the MSM including Fox and political consultants. I noticed the trend to soft sell Romney no matter the issue at the time and to gang up on whoever caught steam. I do not know about you but I hate to be told what I want to eat for dinner. I like to choose for myself.
If I did not know any better I would say that the Democrats are running this election cycle. If so then why? If not then why is everyone convinced that Romney is the only one to beat Obama? What if Romney is just Obama-lite? I know it sounds inflammatory but these are questions that should be answered.
In the past we elected politicians on promises of what they would do after election and then they would get amnesia. At least in this election cycle we see candidates putting forth something that can be examined before election. We have demanded solutions and answers and are getting them. I think we will unite behind one candidate but we must not be voting for whomever we are told will be the only one to beat Obama. If we do we will lose.

 

Daniel22

tnguy Thursday, October 20th at 4:03PM EST (link)

I agree 100% on it seems the dems pick our candidate for us. Beltway/New York republicans, 2 small states that don’t generally represent the conservative base, democrats, and the mainstream media seem to have a bigger say in the republican nominee than the majority of republicans.

 

Cain Just Defended Romney, Criticized Perry for Debate

domingos Thursday, October 20th at 4:24PM EST (link)

Cain was on Hannity just now. He said the immigration exchange at the debate reflected poorly on Perry, He also said Romney defended himself well.

wow, that is a suprise

streiff (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:28PM EST (link)

isn’t it?

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

 

Cain is Romney's Lap Dog, defending Romney

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 4:29PM EST (link)

Of course Cain is going to say that. Cain is Romney’s Lap Dog. If you watch the ending remarks on the debate, the last few minutes Cain basically agrees with Romney in his statement.

It should no longer be unclear, Cain is Romney’s Lap Dog hoping for a VP spot.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


Newt The Next Lap Dog?

domingos Thursday, October 20th at 4:40PM EST (link)

At first it was Bachmann and now Cain. There is a chance that Newt could soon challenge for a top tier spot.

Whenever some conservative emerges, Perry supporters get upset because conservatives are not rallying to him and consolidating around their guy. They cry conspiracy, but they misjudge the field.

Bachmann has yet to be critical of Romney on anything....

californiagold Friday, October 21st at 12:31AM EST (link)

I’m not a rocket scientist, but if I were running for president as a tea party conservative, I would challenge the frontrunner. Especially when the frontunner supported and created a socialized medicine scheme as governor.

Yet, looking at the campaign of Michele Bachmann, she has yet to make a strong case as to why Mitt Romney would be unacceptable to her. She’s discussed issues like vaccines and illegal aliens, but doesn’t yet have the time to discuss Romneycare…

Oh well, maybe in the next debate.

 
 
 
 

Cain hasn't registered his name on the ballot

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:25PM EST (link)

If what the author of this Bloomberg Article is saying is true, Cain hasn’t registered his name on the ballot in numerous primary states. I thought the deadline to register was mid-October. Is that not true?

Don't tell anyone

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 4:27PM EST (link)

Shhh, don’t tell anyone

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


bzip- As I said

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:48PM EST (link)

if this is true, then I definitely go along with the author that Cain is really not a serious candidate. I still think he is running for the VP if Romney won (gulp) the nom. Just reading that he went after Perry again on Hannity, and stuck up for the whiner time keeper Romney makes that all the more likely.

Cain doesn’t have enough money to compete even in the early states. So now we have Bachmann possibly staying in to help Romney, so he will pay her campaign debt. Romney has deep Wall St. pockets and can pay Cain’s campaign debt also. He paid Pawlenty off to get out. So now Romney is going to buy all of the candidates so he can win? I hear Gingrich can use a few bucks, as well as Santorum.

I hope it's true.

jackdaniels11 Friday, October 21st at 12:19AM EST (link)

I just don’t see Cain as a serious guy. He should stick to the pizza business.

 
 
 

Varies by state

unclefred (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 4:55PM EST (link)

I don’t know the dates for IA, NV, NH, SC, and FL, but they must be pretty soon. On the other hand, there was a new item on Tuesday that Paul had just registered and was the first one in (I think) NH, followed by Santorum. So it may not mean much depending on when the article was written.

update...

unclefred (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 5:01PM EST (link)

It was Huntsman and Paul (by proxy) that filed to be on the primary ballot in NH on Teusday, where filing opened on Monday. The filing period there is two weeks, so the earliest that anyone could have filed was the 17th. Santorum had planned to file there today and Romney on Monday.

I think the comment about not having filed is just noise.

 
 
 

Obama will get the Hispanic vote and win

cajungirl2012 Thursday, October 20th at 5:22PM EST (link)

because of the ignorance in my own party. Hispanics are unhappy with Obama, but they won’t vote for someone who uses vapid, hostile rhetoric about other Hispanics.

A kid who broke no laws, who is working on becoming a TX resident, gets in-state tuition. That’s something we need to fight right now? Really?

Isn’t it more important to have a candidate who focuses on securing the border and reviving the economy? Like him or not, Perry is solid on both.

People don’t cross the border for in-state tuition. They want to work, eat and have a safe place to live. Only way to control it is to secure the border.

If you really think Gov Perry should just let his state fill up with uneducated young people, or have the state spend all of its time reporting their parents to INS, then you’re not smart enough to be voting anyway.

Conservatives really screw up on

avgjo (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 5:40PM EST (link)

this issue.

I hate illegal immigration (my Grandma was a LEGAL immigrant from Mexico). That said, a hard reality is that illegals will probably get amnesty at some point. Alienating Hispanics will relegate them to the same status as black voters – mindlessly voting en masse for the dims. That will give the dims a permanent majority.

Letting Herman Cain slide on saying that laborers should be electrocuted with his fence is a perfect example of this crap. Hispanics should be a natural constituency for Conservatives; they are socially very conservative, work hard, etc. They have bought into the lie that the dims look out for the little guy while the GOP wants to oppress them. The Republicans often make that lie very plausible.

Ceterum autem censeo, Obamaecuram esse delendam.

It’s the morality, stupid.

I hope we get smart soon

cajungirl2012 Thursday, October 20th at 10:06PM EST (link)

A lot of Hispanics are Catholic and conservative, but we lost their vote long ago. I don’t know why Republicans can’t find a way to discuss the issue in a positive way.

A voter asked Bachman why she wants to punish the children of illegals, and her answer was cold and political. Being a mom, she could have handled that better. Instead she ranted on about how much it costs taxpayers. Not true, but she stopped caring about the truth a while back.

If we can’t come up with a positive message for Hispanics, we should avoid the issue.

The problem is that we can't get many minority

kyle8 (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 10:50PM EST (link)

voters unless we pander and promise them goodies. And we could never outdo the Democrats in that sort of contest.

Better just to stick to your principles and try and peel off any percentage that will understand your message of individual liberty and opportunity.

I think that we often overstate the whole “hateful rhetoric” thing, I live and work with a lot of Hispanics, they are all a mixed bag. Some of them really do not like the more recent immigrants and say worse things about them than I have ever heard a non Hispanic say.

The worse thing about illegal immigration is not the immigrants themselves, it is that it produces a semi-permanent underclass,

This hurts assimilation. When immigrants assimilate their children and grandchildren are often more likely to be swayed by Republican party ideas.

“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle

Not entirely true.

avgjo (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 7:09PM EST (link)

I always go back to Brian Sandoval.

He won in the same exact election as Reid. Reid ginned up the Hispanic vote by smearing Angle as a racist. The Hispanics voted race, just as Blacks voted race for Obama by overwhelming numbers.

I can tell you about Americans of Mexican descent; half of my family is comprised of them. None of my family takes welfare or other government goodies, but they vote democrat. The same goes for their neighbors all over TExas. Why? Because of what I said above.

IT is also an unfortunate fact of life that current conditions have led to a second hard reality; many, perhaps most of them vote racially. That’s why you can get an anti-illegal immigration Hispanic like Susanna Martinez in a generally purple, almost blue state, and you can get Brian Sandoval from the same people who propeled Harry Reid to victory. Contrary to popular belief, most Mexican-Americans don’t like illegals. That percentage was a healthy majority of them 15 years ago. But in the meantime, La Raza has been allowed to wage racial warfare, and GOP mishandling of the issue has created many converts.

The strategy should be simple: play the game – nominate conservatives like Martinez and Sandoval. These people are more in line with the values of many Hispanics (perhaps those of Kalifornia might be the exception) and Hispanics’ll vote race. Then patch up the 150-yr old + divisions through common sense. Foster assimiliation. Seal the border.
Implement conservatism such that race no longer is an issue.

What sucks is that people on the right don’t have the imagination or the stomach to deport the large no. of illegals in our country. (If they thought the illegals would vote republican, the dims would figure it out, believe me.) We also lack the imagination, organization, energy and tact to win them over to our side.

THAT’S the sort of thing that makes me fear for my country’s future.

Ceterum autem censeo, Obamaecuram esse delendam.

It’s the morality, stupid.

ok I understand running conservative hispanic candidates

kyle8 (Diary) Saturday, October 22nd at 11:24AM EST (link)

I am all for that, but I don’t get how being for massive deportation would sway Hispanics over to our side. Even if they don’t like more illegals, they will still feel some sympathy for them. I can see how that sort of policy could be easily demagogued into “Republicans hate Hispanics.”

Republicans IMO should have one single policy, (1) support for LEGAL Immigration, (2) punishments for people who hire illegals,
(3) equal opportunity for recent immigrants, but no handouts.

Those three things would be all that is necessary and proper to discourage illegal immigration.

“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle

I'm sorry, Kyle, I wasn't clear.

avgjo (Diary) Sunday, October 23rd at 11:16PM EST (link)

Long day, that.

I meant that there is no stomach for massive deportation as an alternative to dealing with the illegal problem. Therefore, the illegals will get amnesty (some point in the future, in all likelihood) and we have to deal with it in the way outlined.

BTW, no argument at all on what you said. I think that in coordination with a strategy like I mentioned, would be devastating to our dim enemies.

Ceterum autem censeo, Obamaecuram esse delendam.

It’s the morality, stupid.

 
 
 
 
 

I hope we get smart soon

cajungirl2012 Thursday, October 20th at 10:06PM EST (link)

A lot of Hispanics are Catholic and conservative, but we lost their vote long ago. I don’t know why Republicans can’t find a way to discuss the issue in a positive way.

A voter asked Bachman why she wants to punish the children of illegals, and her answer was cold and political. Being a mom, she could have handled that better. Instead she ranted on about how much it costs taxpayers. Not true, but she stopped caring about the truth a while back.

If we can’t come up with a positive message for Hispanics, we should avoid the issue.

 
 
 

GREETINGS!

rsklaroff (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 5:26PM EST (link)

It’s been a pleasure reading-through these comments, rapidly accrued during the past five hours.

I would ask that the discerning reader–who seeks data over opining–consider reviewing my presentation on a sister-site:

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/10/20/thin-skin/#comment-136230

Otherwise, I would note that certain of these postings are “keepers” because of the embedded-videos…that certain of these postings recognize that Mitt slipped and Cain foundered…and that Rick is back!

RedState is a repository for spirited exchange, even if people react somewhat reflexly after the reader recognizes prior patterns of assertions.

Robert B. Sklaroff, M.D.
r.sklaroff@verizon.net

[the guy with the "RS-diary" dedicated to differentiating trustworthy conservative-pundits from inside-the-beltway-RINO's]

“…fighting for Truth, Justice, and the American Way!”

 

State of the race

reggie182 Thursday, October 20th at 5:54PM EST (link)

The most significant development from the most recent debate seems to be that a lot of people are giving Newt Gingrich a second look. They are asking themselves if he really is unelectable.

Otherwise I don’t see the dynamic of the race changed much. The key exchange between Perry & Romney devolved into a shoutdown about Lawncare. How that brings Perry back into the thick of things is a mystery.

Newt is awesome

cajungirl2012 Thursday, October 20th at 10:11PM EST (link)

but radioactive.

No way he wins the general. WAY too much baggage.

 
 

Thanks, Erick. Always interesting to read your

septembergurl (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 5:57PM EST (link)

latest take.

My take:

The highest office Newt can reach is VP, because he will have to be chosen or appointed. He is not going to win any states or lead in the polls. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the eventual nominee put him on the ticket. I believe Newt is thinking that way as well, hence his generally positive debates, so as not to alienate anyone. We could do worse, and have, as the present occupant of the office illustrates.

Bachmann is a foil for Perry, meaning it’s in Romney’s interest to keep her in the race. That’s not the same thing as being bought off by Romney. She’s not going to get votes from Romney’s side — hence she’s attacking Cain and Perry.

The next month is crucial for Perry, no debates, a chance to show a mastery of issues not yet evident, remind us of his retail politicking skills, Perry won his elections in Texas by running hard and simply out campaigning his rivals.

The early states do not favor Romney, and he did himself no favors by assuming he could push up Nevada, at the price of angering NH, assuming NH will vote for him . Maybe. I just don’t see him winning Iowa, or South Carolina. It’s hard to see what he can do that he hasn’t done for the last six years, and he’s still at 25%. More & more he looks like the Hillary Clinton of this cycle.

Cain. Abortion will be a problem in Iowa. Santorum, Bachmann, Paul and Perry are impeccable pro-lifers, and they will not let this go. 9 9 9 well past the sell-by date. What else you got?

Paul: Takes a meat-axe to the gummint. We need more of that.

Everybody else — languishing. But this is going to be a long campaign.

 

Abortion WILL happen

annplato Thursday, October 20th at 6:25PM EST (link)

whether legal or illegal, THAT is Herman Cain’s view. He happens to be right.

Obviously, he wants to overturn Roe v. Wade, and perhaps let the states decide individually how they want to go. THAT is what I understand the pro-lifers wish too. To make abortion a “crime” per se, especially at the federal level, I don’t think real freedom loving people would want. To have it handled at the federal level rather than the state is why supporting abortion clinics with federal tax dollars is so difficult to stop.

I happen to agree with Mr. Cain, that LET THE STATES decide, and ultimately “let God sort the sheep from goats”. Where is the conservative faith in God?

I guess America is too far gone to understand a thoroughly honest layperson running for president and they are willing to think the worst of such a person, even if he/she is in every way a TEA party supported conservative candidate.

To the many purist ideologues, who would prefer Perry over either Cain or Romney: Perry will never be able to out-debate the slick Obama orator, which means another four years of destruction a.k.a. “Transformation” of America; debating skills are a deadly handicap for Perry and that is an already proven FACT!

I WANT OBAMA OUT, even if it comes through some compromise here and there! If anyone does not think that is the primary objective in 2012, than you ALL deserve what you will get!

annplato@comcast.net

Purist idealogues?

politicalgal1 Thursday, October 20th at 6:47PM EST (link)

“Perry will never be able to out-debate the slick Obama orator”?

Topic: Regulatory Reform – Perry wins (only candidate with real life experience on how it kills jobs)

Topic: Energy Policy – Perry wins

Topic: Job Creation – Perry wins

Topic: Medicaid Reform – Perry wins

Topic: Border Security – Perry wins

Topic: Foreign Policy – Perry can get up to speed on this

Topic: Tax Policy – Perry wins

Perry needs to demand that the debate topics remain focused on these critical issues or else cancel the debates.

 

Today's comments...like this one...

Bill S (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 7:09PM EST (link)

really make me want to rethink our policy on banning for stupidity.

“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins

 
 

Perry is just not a fluent

annplato Thursday, October 20th at 8:10PM EST (link)

and articulate speaker. He halts, often he looks like he is confused, and he definitely is petty to bring in the subject of hypocrisy regarding illegal immigrants just because someone did not check the immigration status of every employee of a landscaping company who cut their lawn.

I don’t know about his stance on every issue as a governor, and that is not as important as his ability to overcome the Obama machine! If anyone thinks that their pet could win against Obama, they are going to be in for a big surprise. This MACHINE was able to place a Marxist liberal, with no discernible experience in anything other than “community organizer, into the WH once. If anyone thinks that democrats will be bashful to make mince meat out of any of the Republican candidates, better be realistic and beware. The smart Republicans will have to be pragmatic about who can overcome the onslaught of both the media AND the Obama bots. I just can’t see Perry to be able to do it.

annplato@comcast.net

Cain better than Perry at debating

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 8:14PM EST (link)

yet do you see the gaffe machine Cain going against Obama. In inexperienced gaffer sounds more like a Biden and yet you worry more about so-so debates by Perry.

Somebody please explain the logic, if you want cain then please explain this to me. A gaffe machine without any prior experience is going to do better than Perry….please tell me this is a nightmare.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 

you noticed that too?

Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:16PM EST (link)

I thought I was the only one. He is not fluent English speaker, and that is a problem.

Molon Labe!

Cain offers us 2 terms of Obama

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 8:18PM EST (link)

Again I ask, explain to me how Cain the gaffe machine is better than Perry..

At least Perry has the experience and record behind him. Obama will tear Cain apart.

I don’t think I am asking much

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


You can't make a gaffe if no one understands what you are saying

Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:36PM EST (link)

in the first place. Perry has the same habit Bush had, he doesn’t finish his own sentences. Political junkies like us know what he is trying to say, or was going to say, but thank God not everyone is like us.

You say Cain can not win because of gaffes? I challenge that claim and ask for you to back it up. Obama made gaffes all the time, Biden is a synonym for gaffe. At least Cain has charisma, at least he has a positive message. I still have no clue what Perry stands for, other than he likes Texas a lot.

I don’t know that Perry has such a strong record. He says himself that Texans seem to agree on a lot, including immigration. But Americans do not agree, Americans are fighting for our very survival, one side needs to defeat the other, the stakes are the future of this nation.

Molon Labe!

Cain the messiah?

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 8:48PM EST (link)

“Obama made gaffes all the time” sure he did and the entire media was in the tank for Obama, good grief. You think the media is going to be in the tank for a conservative and a inexperienced conservative at that.

Obama also had/has charisma as well, that is what got him elected. You are even making a greater case of Cain the messiah that I did over the weekend. The only hope for Cain is the media gets in the tank for him because he has no experience, no record, the only hope to get through his gaffes is his charisma.

Perry has 10 years of a record for you to know what he stands for.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


thanks bzip, but take it somewhere else

Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:57PM EST (link)

many here like to go back and forth with candibots until the wee hours, I have no interest in that at all. If you were really interested in persuading voters to support your guy, you would be taking another tack. I only post when I feel I have something worthwhile to add to the discussion, my days of back and forth for no reason are gone.

btw, I am still open to Perry, I am open to all the candidates. Sure I took some shots at him because people need to see clearly, so far he is nothing special. But unlike many around here lately, I realize one of these guys is going to be our candidate and then the true Red Stater’s will get behind him 100 percent.

Molon Labe!

Doc - till the next time

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 9:07PM EST (link)

Doc – Personally, all I was looking for is the “still open to Perry, I am open to all the candidates” To me, hearing that from people is all I can ask for or try and persuade of people. Till the next time have a good evening :-) .

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


good evening bzip :)

Doc Holliday (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 9:22PM EST (link)

no hard feelings here. I am still hoping one of these guys earns are unified support.

Molon Labe!

 
 
 
 
 

Your posts are "starting" to Bore me Bzip

luvnthebigsites (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:44PM EST (link)

Obama couldn’t Tear himself out of a wet paper sack without the beloved teleprompter. Take a brake with the Cain bashing please and thank you. I don’t want to be “officially” bored with your posts just yet..

“Ask not what your candidate can do for you, but what you can do for your candidate”. Andrew Breitbart CPAC 2012.

I, and many others have enjoyed bzip's posts

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 9:17PM EST (link)

If those posts bore you than you should be really really bored with the onslaught of Cainbot posts. By your standards, it’s OK to bash one candidate, but please talk negatively about mine? Good luck with that.

 
 

I don't think Obama will tear Cain apart

lineholder (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:52PM EST (link)

I think what Erick has expressed on more than one occasion is very much so true…Cain has a way of presenting America as the “shining city on the hill”. Obama only talks about horrible this nation is and apologizes for us around the globe. I think the contrast between the two would be striking.

kowalski, and regardless of who the Repub

lineholder (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:54PM EST (link)

candidate turns out to be, Obama can’t run on his own record. It’s too unpopular. All he’s got is “give me more time for more hope and change”. People don’t like the change he’s brought so far as it is.

 
 
 
 

I'll take a speaker who thinks about what he is saying

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:29PM EST (link)

before he says it before a guy that has a pre-programmed teleprompter buried in his head any day of the week or year. Look at the difference between the stump speeches between Perry and Romney. Romney connects with no one, he is plastic, elitist, and condescending whereas Perry connects with those in front of him. Romney turns people off, Perry turns people on.

 
 

Steve Forbes on Perry's Flat Tax

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 8:29PM EST (link)

Here’s a link to Steve Forbes Fox News interview today in support of Rick Perry’s flat tax proposal:

Steve Forbes on Flat Tax

According to Forbes’ Perry’s proposed rates have not been finalized, but the broad outline would be similar to Forbes’ proposal of 17% flat tax rate with an exemption for the first $36,000 of income for a typical family of four. With no other deductions allowed, this would, I calculate, result in a progressive tax structure starting at 2% effective tax rate for a family of four making $40,000 a year increasing to 17% at somewhere around $1 million. $60k per year families would be paying 7%. $100k families would be paying 11%, Below $36K would be paying nothing.

Forbes 4 Perry on New Flat Tax plan

bzip Thursday, October 20th at 8:41PM EST (link)

Thanks for the link, it sounds very exciting. I am looking forward to it and I really hope others at least listen and consider the plan Perry will be announcing. It sure sounds a lot better than the 999 plan.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 

As a person who voted twice for Forbes, this couldn't come too soon

JSobieski (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 8:58PM EST (link)

Hopefully it gives Perry some much needed lift and it marks additional substance for the campaign.

I also wish “titanium” spined Bachmann would come up with a budget that would alleviate the need to raise the debt ceiling even a penny—but I won’t hold my breath.

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

Cain promises to balance the federal budget his first year

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 9:17PM EST (link)

I can’t wait to see THAT plan. Of course, when you can say with a straight face that you are 100% pro-life AND believe that it’s a woman’s choice with no role for the government, I guess you can say anything with a straight face.

And they said he wasn't a politician...

NightTwister (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 9:39PM EST (link)

Cain promises to balance the federal budget his first year

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill

good one and doesn't Bachmann also say that given her

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 10:05PM EST (link)

vote not to raise the debt ceiling?

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

It's about being realistic.

NightTwister (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 10:14PM EST (link)

There’s no way the budget is balanced in the first year of anyone’s term. It’s gonna take longer than that to get through Congress, regardless of its makeup after the election.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill

absolutely right NT

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 11:30PM EST (link)

nt

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

 
 
 
 
 
 

Terrific Perry tax plan

jjhlh1 Thursday, October 20th at 9:25PM EST (link)

This is exactly what we need. One of the big problems I have with Obama and Romney is that they don’t have a pro-growth message. They both use the $200,000 figure to categorize someone as “rich”. They should know better than that by now. Taxing small businesses at high rates isn’t going to help create jobs.

 
 

I hope Perry's flat tax proposal is not "progressive".

d_lamar Thursday, October 20th at 9:32PM EST (link)

We know that at least 47%, and probably more than that, don’t pay taxes. In fact, those same people are most likely to consume a disproportionate share of government resources, education, police, fire protection, anything to do with the court system, jails, counseling services, public defenders, etc.

The point is that it’s time that these people quit being a parasite on other people’s earnings.

The founding fathers had it right. If you don’t pay taxes, you can’t vote. There’s nothing moral about allowing non-taxpayers voting to take stuff from somebody else so they can get stuff free.

The flat tax should be the same percentage on all income. No exceptions, no credits, no eitc.

It has one rate, no deductions, or credits

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 9:43PM EST (link)

It is, however, progressive because the first $36,000 or so of income (for a family of four) will be exempt from taxation. It’s the basic personal and dependent children exemptions.

That $36,000 is a huge percentage of the income for a $40,000 a year family, so they only pay the 17% (or whatever) on a small fraction of their income. It is a miniscule percentage for a family earing $1 million a year, so they effectively pay the 17% on all of their income. Thus, the effective tax rates go from 2% in the first case to 17% in the second case.

I think that’s a very sensible approach.

I have to disagree.

d_lamar Thursday, October 20th at 9:47PM EST (link)

Everyone should have to pay taxes. What’s the moral rationale for allowing one half of the citizens of this country to not pay federal tax?

I stand by my argument that it is not a good thing for one half of the people to be parasites on the other half.

Where does your data come from?

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 9:58PM EST (link)

Why do you think that half of American wage earners would pay no federal tax under Perry’s flat tax proposal?

As I understand it, the Forbes proposal was a straight $9000 personal exemption. So any single person earnint more than $9000 a year would be paying Federal tax. A married couple with no children would be paying Federal tax once they earn a combined $18,000 per year. A married couple with two children would start paying federal tax at $36,000 per yer.

Remeber, all the credits and deductions are gone. It’s a flat tax rate. No mortgage deduction, etc.

 
 
 

The resources that you name

Scope (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 9:54PM EST (link)

that citizens utilize police, fire, jails etc are local/state responsibilities, not the federal governments. Perry is proposing a federal government solution, not a state by state, or locality by locality solution. Perry’s plan will have nothing to do with what states and localities impose as to taxation to solve their own services problems.

As far as I know, most states...

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 10:05PM EST (link)

already have a flat tax. At least all the places I’ve ever lived have a single income tax rate.

Some have progressive taxes. Maryland passed a "Millionaire tax" ...

acat (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 10:20PM EST (link)

a couple years ago, for instance.

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

 

"Most states already have a flat tax". Are you serious?

d_lamar Thursday, October 20th at 10:21PM EST (link)

What states have a flat tax? The only ones that I’m aware of are those that have no state income tax, so that I guess zero across the board is pretty flat.

But for those that do have an income tax, my guess is that none have a flat tax. They all some kind of exemption, credits, or something that allow certain persons to avoid paying any tax on their earnings.

As far as Perry’s suspected $36,000 exemption from the flat tax, that would cover more than have the households in this country.

As far as those services that I mentioned, they all are in some form or another funded by the federal government by payments to the states in the form of grants or subsidies. You would be hard pressed to find a community whose schools, courts, fire departments, jails, and everything else is not at least partially funded by the feds. That is how they have weasled their grimy fingers into controlling much of local and state government by attaching strings to their generous gifts to the states.

 
 
 
 

Massachusetts has a single tax rate: 5.3%

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 10:56PM EST (link)

Very limited tax deductions. No mortgate interest deduction. No chartible deduction.

You seem to be under the impression that a flat tax means that everyone pays the same amount of tax. It simply means that there is only one tax rate.

As far as Perry’s suspected $36,000 exemption from the flat tax, that would cover more than have the households in this country.

I don’t know where you are getting your information, but that’s not true. As I outline above, the $36,000 figure is a $9000 per person exemption for a family of four. A single person making above $9000 would pay federal income tax. The median income in the United States is well above $9000 per year. Minimum wage for 40 hours per week is something like $15,000 per year. So, basically anyone working 30 hours a week at McDonalds is going to be paying federal income tax. What do you want? Blood? Sheesh! :)

Ran your figures in Illinois

evilleramsfan Friday, October 21st at 2:14AM EST (link)

$8.25 minimum wage, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year,
comes out to $26.68 per week in federal taxes. They still make $303.32 per week (not counting state and local taxes). I do not think this is an unreasonable cost for the benefits they receive from federal projects. I would be curious to see what the projected income to the federal government would be from this and what kind of cost savings there would be from having a simplified system. Now, granted, there would be a certain industry affected by this and you would have an increase in joblessness from that, but many families and businesses would see a savings in being able to easily calculate their returns.

“First make sure you’re right, then go ahead.” – Davy Crockett

 
 

To me a flat tax means just that, everyone pays the same rate of tax on every dollar earned.

d_lamar Thursday, October 20th at 11:06PM EST (link)

If there are exemptions, credits, eitc, etc., then that means that by definition, the tax rate is not flat. For some people, their tax rate is zero. Nothing flat about different rates of taxes for different people.

By the way, I know nothing about Massachusett’s tax rates, I’ve never lived there, nor do I want to, but I’m guessing that it’s tax rate is not flat. I bet that some people earn money and don’t pay any taxes on that income.

Well, you have a very extreme position

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 11:19PM EST (link)

Nobody who has ever propsed a flat tax (Steve Forbes, Dick Armey, etc) has ever proposed a tax with no personal exemptions. You are way out of the mainstream, even mainstream conservative circles. What you are proposing has zero chance of being enacted by any jurisdication in the United States. Sorry.

I'll take that as a compliment.

d_lamar Thursday, October 20th at 11:32PM EST (link)

Of course the politicians are never going to adopt a flat tax. They’ve got an immoral criminal enterprise going on. They promise benefits to people, in exchange for their votes, and force other people to pay for it. How much more perfect can than get? It’s no different that what they’re doing with public employee unions.

The politicians provide great benefits, retirement, holiday pay, medical benefits, and above-average pay, all at taxpayer expense. The unions vote for these politicians, and in return the union dues are given to the politicians in the form of political donations. As Rush calls it, it’s just a legal form of money laundering.

The founding fathers were brighter than all these politicians that have been running this country since FDR. They believed that only those who had skin in the game should be permitted to vote, because they knew what would happen if people could vote themselves somebody else’s earnings.

So if I’m extreme, I would say that I’m in good company, at least with those who have some wisdom about how the government should be funded.

I actually think something like Steve Forbes' flat tax

clintonformccain Thursday, October 20th at 11:48PM EST (link)

has a outside chance of being enacted by the next President. The House would pass it. If you structured it so that it increased revenues a bit and took a bite out of the deficit, you might even have a fighting chance in the Senate. You have zero chance without some degree of progressivity. Even Republicans wouldn’t support it without the personal exemptions to protect low income families.

I'm pessimistic that the politicians will ever give up their power to buy votes with other people's money.

d_lamar Friday, October 21st at 12:18AM EST (link)

And that’s what our present system is great at. Too many people benefit from our corrupt tax system. Unions, mega corporations like GE, accountants, tax attorneys, the poor, and the politicians – - everybody except the shrinking middle class that pays for all of it.

There’s no way you’ll ever get 60 votes in the Senate to repeal our tax code. Even if we had 60 republicans in the senate, you still couldn’t get 60 votes.

In my opinion, it would be easier to repeal the 16th amendment, which I would favor.

 
 
 
 
 

Hermann and Newt

littletboca (Diary) Thursday, October 20th at 11:19PM EST (link)

Hermann is like the great next door neighbor that will do anything for you and watch your backside, but I can’t see him getting to far because he lacks organization and money.

Newt, is more than capable of standing toe to toe with Obama in a debate and he darn sure knows how to push Obama’s buttons now – I think we all do…

I believe Newt would do us a great job and maybe Hermann would be a good VP for four years. Romney is polished, but showed the other night in the debate that he can’t keep his composure. You have to be thick skinned and able to deflect the darts and arrows – not sure he can do that…

Great post Erick, thanks

 

President Perry..............

californiagold Thursday, October 20th at 11:45PM EST (link)

….has a nice ring to it….

Let’s get real here people…..

Newt Gingrich will not be the nominee. Period.

Nor will Bachmann, Huntsman, Cain, Santorum, Paul, or Johnson.

There are only two candidates with the organization and money to win…and they are Romney and Perry. But Romney has a huge problem, the overwhelming majority of primary voters don’t like him or trust him.

Perry is finally starting his ad campaign, and he will take no prisoners. Romney will start to fade by the time Iowa comes around, and will refocus on Nevada and New Hampshire. When that happens, Perry will have to fight against Newt, Cain, and Bachmann in Iowa.

Bachmann and Cain are ringers for the Romney campaign, and eventually they both will fade out of the picture.

My prediction is that the last three standing will be Perry, Gingrich, and Romney. But when that happens, Newt won’t look as good as he does now, and he will eventually fade as well, leaving Perry in a one on one race with Romney after Florida.

 

A Romney put the "R" in RINO

gunsrus Friday, October 21st at 5:58AM EST (link)

Politic’s is a family business for the Romney’s. This alone should be more of a concern to conservatives than Newt’s sex life.
His father help entrench the Democratic Detroit power base as Governor of Michigan.

 

This site brought to you by the Rick Perry campaign...

jjkoran Friday, October 21st at 7:09AM EST (link)

Of course Eric has seen a preview of the tax plan since his site seems to have become an extension of the Perry campaign.

Honestly all of you Perry supporters have to be seeing what you want to see in him because you are so desperate to have anyone other than Romney.

When I see democratic strategist and operatives go on TV and claim that Rick Perry won the debate that tells me everything I need to know. They so desperately want him to win because they know that is the best chance for an Obama re-election.

Republicans have a history of shooting themselves in the foot. Everything is there for the taking next year. We can’t screw this up!!!

I don’t care if Perry is right on every single issue….unless he is allowed a designated speaker in interviews and debates….HE CAN’T SELL THEM!

The only way Perry beats Obama is if the economy is so bad that nobody cares what he says.

Perry will be on the cover of "Parade" magazine this weekend

circlegranch Friday, October 21st at 7:33AM EST (link)

thanks for reading!

 

Perry will be on the cover of "Parade" magazine this weekend

circlegranch Friday, October 21st at 7:33AM EST (link)

thanks for reading!

Perry is the true-anti-romney candidate

bzip Friday, October 21st at 8:48AM EST (link)

I think Perry is going to be doing the media blitz. Perry will be releasing his Flat Tax plan (Forbes help him) on Tues.

I just don’t think people realize that Perry is just getting warmed up.

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


McCain was the anti-Romney candidate too

jjkoran Friday, October 21st at 9:06AM EST (link)

….and he lost to Obama….just like Perry most likely will. Is someone going teach him how to speak between now and the debates next year if he is the nominee. He is not going to get any better.

I feel dirty for having to defend Romney….because I like him probably as much as you….but we have to win next November and that is all I care about.

Perry could take Obama to the woodshed

bzip Friday, October 21st at 9:12AM EST (link)

So debating is your worry. Okay, can we say that debating might improve. If debating is your worry then those who are Cain fanatics really make me worry since Cain is a non-stop gaffe machine and doesn’t even have a record to run on.

If debating is your only worry about Perry I think you should at least allow him a chance, it is not like we are casting vote tomorrow.

Personally to me I think Perry proved in this last debate that he can take Obama to the woodshed others may not see it that way…

I support Governor Rick Perry. Join the Tea and Fed Up Blog.


 

Illogic~

sunshinek67 (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 9:53AM EST (link)

That is a weak premise, conservatives viewed McCain as more liberal or moderate on some issues, same as Romney. To say Republicans lost because the nominee was not Romney is being disingenuous. Goes back to that circular argument of entitlement, next in line theory. Bottom line, not a strong conservative candidate that can distinguish the line clearly with Barack Obama.

You misunderstand....

jjkoran Friday, October 21st at 1:26PM EST (link)

Given the circumstances no matter who the Republican nominee was in 08 they were probably going to lose. This is not what I was saying…

Conservatives did not want Romney in 08 (for the same reasons they don’t want him today), therefore they spent the whole campaign trying to find the perfect alternative and ended up with someone far worse…McCain. I remember distinctively right before the Florida campaign Rush, Hannity and all of the others desperately trying to push Romney when they realized McCain was winning, but they were too late…

Perry would certainly be better than McCain simply because I know he will at least put up a fight….but I fear the result will be the same.

Even though I am a fan of Herman Cain, I am not convinced he can win either…..which is why I am making my peace with Romney. I only hope all of the Perrybots out there can do the same in time to prevent another electoral disaster.

 
 
 
 
 
 

Come together

GR Friday, October 21st at 2:14PM EST (link)

You are correct! Whoever the nominee is, and I believe it will be Romney, we all need to come together to ensure we beat Obama!

 

Not a warmonger,

sunshinek67 (Diary) Friday, October 21st at 2:19PM EST (link)

However conservatives are tired of settling. We need a candidate that can draw a deep line in the sand for a change. There is no perfect candidate. True. It goes without saying that character is important to conservatives and a consistent record that aligns with the party platform as well, both of which are questionable in the same sentence as Romney, however he is saying all the right things today for elective purposes. Every time he has ever ran for office, though, his positions have changed. Untrustworthy.

His composure on stage was impeccable until Vegas. John Kings video aired the next day was damaging, Romney’s Rebuttal May Hurt Him, it coincides with Team Perry’s. A Romney candidacy will fail to incite the base with numbers needed to offset Obama’s, remember he still has 80%+ of his base.

Romney’s liabilities are just too much to ingest. I think he is a pseudo-conservative out of convenience, not out of conviction. Most incredible to me is that he is considered by media elites, the GOP establishment and Wall Street alike the he is the most electable against Obama. Think about it, really think about what we do know, and it goes beyond logic~