We’ve mentioned before Jane Norton’s reliance on Cinamon out in Colorado. Cinamon helps Jane Norton answer her questions.
I was shocked and appalled to hear this public radio interview with Jane Norton. Instead of relying on Cinamon for advice on how to deal with illegal alients, Jane Norton is instead relying on “hispanic clergy.”
Their advice? Don’t send illegals home. Give them community service then let them apply for citizens. She says something about sending them “to the back of the line” and giving them background checks on that path to citizenship too.
You can hear her at around 16:50. I just have a question.
If we’re sending illegals to the back of the line and not out of the country, doesn’t that mean they just get to stay and carry on? If so, why bother doing anything to them?
Free Cinamon! Free the other spice girls too. Surely Cinamon, and potentially Nutmeg, give better advice than a shadowy band of priests, no doubt pulled straight from Dan Brown’s mind.
Aaron Gardner
Moe Lane
Steve Maley
KnightsofMalta
Dan Spencer
Dan McLaughlin
Erick
rdelbov Tuesday, July 20th at 12:38PM EST (link)i think this post is a bit of a cheap shot on Jane Norton.
1. Not every hispanic clergyman is a Catholic Priest. I know several protestant ministers who are hispanic–Norton said “clergy” and not Priests. Cabal and Priests imply some sort of secret council and the interview did not imply that.
2. We berate our democratic congressman for not having townhall meetings. Well by golly Jane Norton actually meets with people and listens to their ideas. I have written letters to senators & congressman-called them too–phone numbers are often posted here for that purpose. I for one am glad Norton listened.
3. As to her actual thoughts on immigration I am not actually sure what they are. Her answer included what she believes and what the advice others gave her. Norton said we need to have borders secured and to have our employment laws enforced so that illegals are not longer working here. I think we all agree with that but how to handle 11 million illegals here is a big question. I believe there is a 30 day waiting period before explusion occurs. Where would keep even 300K illegals for 10 days? We would need 20 stalag 13s in each border state.
I also assume she sees illegals who turn themselves in as being on the end of the line–I assume thats some sort of line for citizenship status. She offered no details on that line and or even if that were her idea or the idea of others. Not sure.
I go back to original point on Norton & Buck. You can a preference for either candidate. I think both are top candidates who are true blue conservatives. I would prefer both stick to the issues -be positive-and be ready to unite to take on Bennett in the fall.
You Assume Too Much
edintexas Wednesday, July 21st at 8:32AM EST (link)1. The title/name “Priest” does not define only Roman Catholic clergy.
3. You shouldn’t be sure what her personal thoughts are on illegal aliens. She’s a politician and, like most politicians, her “thoughts” will be whatever she thinks the audience of the moment wants to hear. However, just in case she actually does have some principals, most people who have principals will not give voice to “advice” from others which conflicts with what they personally believe.
Any politician who states that illegals should have any “path to citizenship” which deviates from that which any citizen from any other country must follow (apply in your country for admission and wait in your country for your turn to be admitted to the US and wait again for your turn at citizenship – an exception being made for those applying for asylum) is definitely not a “true blue”, or any other sort of, conservative (faux conservative being an exception).
I guess she thought "it's Colorado Public Radio
deano64 (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 12:40PM EST (link)so only lefties will be listening” which is mostly true Haha. Like any true moderate she thinks she can actually get Dems to support her. “The back of the line” comment reminds me of McCain’s amnesty bill. It seems like the same language was being used at that time by both Dems and RINOS.
A side note: My Mom and Dad are up in Colroado and I’ve got them on board for Ken Buck. I was talking to my Dad yesterday and he doesn’t dislike Norton but he said he is really disgusted by her attack ads on Ken Buck.
Precinct Committeeman before it was cool.
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
Alexis De Tocqueville
Norton isn't a moderate or a RiNO.
NightTwister (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 1:08PM EST (link)But if she wins the primary and people like you make those labels stick, you can be sure that “Senator Who?” will be in Washington for another six years.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a... - nt
deano64 (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 1:10PM EST (link)Precinct Committeeman before it was cool.
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
Alexis De Tocqueville
I'll count that as a vote for Michael Bennet...nt.
NightTwister (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 3:24PM EST (link)The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
I'll count this as conceeding defeat prior to a
deano64 (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 4:17PM EST (link)vote being cast.
Precinct Committeeman before it was cool.
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
Alexis De Tocqueville
Actions have consequences.
NightTwister (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 4:26PM EST (link)If you successfully convince enough people that Norton is a moderate RiNO, and she wins the Primary, enough people will stay home and Bennet will win. It’s the fact of politics in Colorado. But then, you people outside don’t really undestand politics here, so you’ll just have to learn the hard way.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Norton for CO Gov?
chihank Tuesday, July 20th at 1:16PM EST (link)Any chance Norton wll switch to the Governor.? Perhaps, state govt is more suited for her. She was LT Gov.
Scott McInnis’s plagarism has a winnable race into a likely Dem hold.
But is Cinamon a RiNO?
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 1:17PM EST (link)I mean we know Norton would lean on her to make the votes…
RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Cinamon is not an issue
aesthete (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 1:29PM EST (link)She’s a frakking staffer, ferchristsake. It’s not like Cinamon is sitting in a badly lighted office planning Norton’s every move while twirling her handlebar mustache and chuckling evilly. Norton’s record is fine. BTW, and there should be quite a bit of leeway as far as immigration goes for conservatives. As long as she’s for building a fence and enforcement, I would think that we’re fine.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
That's been my
rdelbov Tuesday, July 20th at 1:56PM EST (link)point that Norton is a solid conservative—you can have a preference for another solid conservative like Ken Buck but lets stick the issues.
Lets not degrade or attack another fellow conservative
Let's not degrade or attack another fellow
deano64 (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 2:17PM EST (link)conservative? Maybe you shoud get in touch with the Norton campaign and convince her of that.
Precinct Committeeman before it was cool.
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
Alexis De Tocqueville
Buck and his shadow allies
rdelbov Tuesday, July 20th at 2:26PM EST (link)started the attacks on Norton then she went tit for tat
There is nobody is in this race with clean hands.
Norton is not a "solid conservative"
crassus (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 2:29PM EST (link)Ken Buck is absolutely more conservative. Jane Norton supports amnesty and mass illegal immigration. It is plane and simple. She also worked for HillaryCare in the 1990s. That should be a disqualifier.
So if Jane wins the primary,
NightTwister (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 3:29PM EST (link)you’ll stay home since she’s disqualified? Is that what you’re saying here?
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
No
crassus (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 5:05PM EST (link)(1) Technically, I can’t “stay home” as I do not live in Colorado. (2) By disqualifier, I meant that lobbying for HillaryCare disqualifies one from being considered a solid conservative. (3) If Norton won the primary (I would be shocked) and I lived in Colorado (as I said before I don’t) then I would vote for Norton.
Another outsider telling us who should represent us...nt.
NightTwister (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 5:48PM EST (link)The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Yeah, damn those concerned citizens.
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 6:06PM EST (link)I mean it’s not like Senators get to vote on things that affect the entire Nation.
/sarc
Seriously NightTwister, you know that we all have a vested interest in all federally elected officials.
This is a cop out.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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Hi Aaron
NightTwister (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 6:16PM EST (link)It’s been awhile. Nothing’s changed though. Buck and Norton would vote essentially the same on major legislation. This isn’t Crist vs. Rubio. This is the wrong fight, but RS isn’t going to stop posting these ridiculous diaries and I’m not going to stop responding to them and calling them what they are.
See you at the next one.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Nice evasion NightTwister...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 9:33PM EST (link)As was your comment to crassus when he said he would support Norton in the general.
Try harder next time please.
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Just because you don't get the response you want
NightTwister (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 9:53PM EST (link)doesn’t mean it’s an evasion.
Try harder next time.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Um, you did evade...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 10:38PM EST (link)You didn’t even acknowledge that federal races are of national interest and different people will have different opinions about candidates in those races.
Instead you pulled out a strawman argument that had nothing to do with the point I was making.
You want to know what is really silly? Your incessant complaining ever since your guy dropped out of the race. Your guy was the only choice for you and now all you can do is play equivalence games with the remaining candidates.
Get over it. Your guy dropped out, it’s time for you to make a choice or just quit commenting on this race.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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You don't even know what a strawman argument is.
NightTwister (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 12:30AM EST (link)I was over Frazier dropping out a long time ago.
Not seeing a difference in the available candidates is a valid position. As you’ve said before, it’s my opinion. I don’t have to choose Norton and Buck. Either one is just fine with me. You guys are the ones saying one is unacceptable. It’ll be really interesting to see what RS has to say if Norton wins. My guess is it’ll be silence like all the other races where the RS preferred candidate didn’t win.
I’ll quit commenting on this race when folks stop posting ridiculous diaries like this one. Until then, I’m going to continue unless you ban me. A difference of opinion has never been a bannable offense here before. I suppose I’ll find out if it is now.
Oh, and btw, I will grant there is some national interest in Senate races. I wish it were not so, and would actually prefer that we go back to having State legislatures choose Senators, but that’s not going to happen. But in the case of Colorado, you’re cutting your nose off to spite your face. If Buck loses, your efforts will likely work to elect Senator Who? The fact that you don’t understand that shows your complete lack of understanding of the local political scene in Colorado. Some people have to learn the hard way. My guess is it’ll be the case here with you.
That said, ultimately Coloradans will choose who will represent us as we’re the ones who just received our ballots in the mail. My hope is people will evaluate the candidates on the issues and not the silliness that passes for electoral debate these days.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Actually I do know what a strawman is.
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 12:48AM EST (link)It can take many forms. One form is where you ascribe motives to your opponent that don’t exist and then argue against those motives instead of the points being made. Which is precisely what you did.
You didn’t like the opinion of crassus, who even admitted that he would support Norton in the primary, so instead of debating him you just told him to shut up and mind his own business because this is your state not his.
It was a cop out just like I said.
As far as you being over Frazier, well, let’s just say that you used to have opinions on the Colorado primary and now you suddenly have no opinion.
You will also notice that I didn’t comment at all on the Buck vs. Norton debate. All I commented on was your childish argumentation and attempts to marginalize those who disagree with your opinion.
The problem I have with what you are doing is that you explicitly come here to comment on a race that you refuse to have an opinion on other than to say that we all have to agree that everyone involved is equally good.
You say that your opinion is valid but refuse to accept that other peoples opinion on this race is also valid. That seems just a tad hypocritical to me.
In short, quit acting like such a victim. You have a platform that you refuse to use except to gripe about the work others are doing.
I remember when you actually had opinions rather than just complaints, and I miss those days Randy.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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I *DO* have an opinion.
NightTwister (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 10:17AM EST (link)That’s what you don’t get. You probably never will, but I’ll try one more time.
My opinion is:
Buck = Norton
They’re the same. They’ll vote the same, so I don’t care which one we get. I don’t need to pick one because the end result is the same.
Unfortunately, RS seems to need to create silly diaries about stuff that has nothing to do with the issues to try to paint Norton as a liberal. It’s simply not true. The reason it bothers me is because it could very well destroy Norton’s chances against Bennet if she wins the Primary.
The right time for the fight here isn in the General, not the Primary. So long as these silly diaries come up, I will continue to come comment on them. Don’t look for me to write a diary about one candidate or the other, because it makes no difference to me which one wins. They’re both equal in my opinion.
See, I don’t have to pick a candidate just because you say so. And not picking one doesn’t mean I don’t have an opinion. It’s just that I don’t have your opinion, and that’s what really bothers you.
I remember a time when respectful debate and discussion happened at RedState. I remember times when you respectfully disagreed. I miss those days, Aaron.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
I remember when you had reading comprehension skills Randy.
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 10:58AM EST (link)I think I summed up your position pretty well with this from my comment above:
Also, you don’t have to pick a candidate because I say so, you have to pick a candidate because you can’t vote for both in the primary election. Unless you are really saying that you won’t be voting in the primary.
If the latter is the case then your opinion becomes just as worthless as you infer crassus’s is since he lives out of state.
I am done with you until after the general election when you get your mind right.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
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Kowalski: You are the one that was being disrespectful.
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 11:01AM EST (link)You are the one telling other people that their comments and opinions mean nothing because they live out of state.
I just called you on it.
In response you refused to address the point I made and pivoted to your “they’re all the same” pitch.
If you were being respectful you would have addressed my point instead of shifting your argument.
Again, quit acting like a victim.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
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Well, at least I tried.
NightTwister (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 1:37PM EST (link)Take your victim crap somewhere else. You’ve never addressed my main issue, which is you’re destroying Norton’s chance against Bennet if she wins the Primary.
From now on, its Hinz Rule for you. It’s pointless to even discuss something with you.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
I didn't address it because I didn't do that.
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 1:49PM EST (link)Get over it.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
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They don't mean nothing
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 2:33PM EST (link)but they sure do mean a lot less, as far as quality and knowledge are concerned. If I were to offer an opinion on Lisa Murowski, it might be informed, and I would offer my opinion honestly. In candor, however, I didn’t even know about Murowski until about 3 years ago, so the opinion of someone in-state who has been following politics (like AChance) is probably one of more value than mine. Likewise, my opinion of JD-McCain, as well as those of Flagstaff, Mbeck, and C_W, are of more value than yours or another out-of-stater. We know our state; you guys don’t, and it’s reasonable to assume that NightTwister’s impression of the race is more accurate than that of an outsider who’s been following the race for ~6 months from the outside, especially in the absence of concrete evidence on the part of outsiders making their case (I’m sure Cinamon is a lovely person, but she’s irrelevant in the context of the campaign).
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Does that give you license to attack and distort their opinion aesthete?
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 2:41PM EST (link)Because that is what I objected to.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
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No
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 3:15PM EST (link)My point was meant to stand on its own, given the troubling tendency of some to pretend to expertise on another’s state based on the fervor of their conviction alone.
Thread went downhill in no short order, but I think that NightTwister’s point about the uninformed getting out of their high towers long enough to tell those of another state who the “true conservative” in the race is, is a valid one, with respect to outsiders who aren’t doing that.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
I disagree completely.
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 3:35PM EST (link)We live in an age where information is easily gather despite one locality.
An astute observer from say GA, can have a better idea of what’s going on in say AZ than an AZ man who doesn’t read anything but his local democrat rag.
Their is a plethora of information available on both candidates and different people will ldraw different conclusions, some who are local will end up being wrong. Their locality doesn’t change that.
Locality is meaningless now except for the actual voting.
Furthermore, we are all bloggers, part of that is influencing opinion through the use of varying arguments for and against ideas and candidates.
This is what we do, to get all butt hurt over other people doing it too is childish, especially when it takes the form of marginalizing one’s opponent in debate.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat
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There's no substitute for the real thing
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 3:57PM EST (link)If anything, information is more decentralized and diffuse than before. It’s one reason why centralized control is an even worse idea than ever, even if you have no philosophical objection to it. The internet is very useful for generalized information, and is an excellent research tool. What it is not is a substitute for living in an area. It can, in fact, be misleading by allowing one to believe that he has a higher level of knowledge about a given subject than he actually has. The man reading his local Dem rag is probably mis- or ill-informed, it’s true, but on RS, selection bias would indicate that posters are well-informed on the politics of thier state. This cuts both ways: I’m sure you know more about VT than I do, having lived there. Likewise, I’m sure that I know more about AZ than you do.
BTW, I wouldn’t want to give the impression that I’m butthurt over dialog. I don’t have to hold all points of view to have parity to be amicable, though. We’ll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Sorry aesthete, I still disagree.
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 4:19PM EST (link)Your view is a little too static for my tastes. I lived in AZ for 19years, I lived in CO for 10, I have lived in VT for 2. Your view doesn’t take these factors into account.
You also aren’t taking into account the idea that someone might possibly have contacts in those states which would further validate their opinions. Take me for example. I still have many contacts including family in both CO and AZ.
It’s not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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No, it's not
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 4:59PM EST (link)Supply side theory isn’t as cut and dried as “cut taxes, get wealth”. Keynesianism isn’t as simple as “run deficits in recessions”. The principle behind both remains valid, even if the specifics are more complex.
You mentioned nothing about contacts or other connections to a state, simply that the internet is a great equalizer. I emphatically disagree, and think that such can delude others into believing themselves more knowledgeable than they really are.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Actually aesthete, I never mentioned the internet...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 5:17PM EST (link)But since you bring it up. If I use email to talk directly to a person in AZ is the value of the information exchanged less simply because it took place over the internet?
No, of course it isn’t.
With that in mind I would have to disagree with you once again. And I really do hate doing that.
Anyhow, we have probably taken this threadjack about as far as it can go, so let me close with this:
Go Buck!! (this comes via my friend in Colorado Springs, of course he used the internet to send it to me so it is probably fake and should be discounted)
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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Hehe
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 5:24PM EST (link)So long as it’s a Thomas Jefferson vs Alexander Hamilton disagreement, rather than a Stalin vs Trotsky disagreement, I’m cool
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
I think NT and Achance are saying the same thing in their own way
pilgrim (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 3:59PM EST (link)There can be unintended consequences to fighting and blogging so hard to get the one that you want winning the primary, and in November a new US Senator with a D after their name have won the seat. It is definitely too much to ask people to stop doing what they are doing, and I agree with Aaron on this point. I also see Art and NT’s point about unintended consequences.
I see their point too pilgrim...
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 4:26PM EST (link)And things that are said could possibly hurt whoever ends up winning the Primary.
But, first and foremost, primaries are elections and elections are about defining yourself and your opponent to your ultimate advantage in order to secure a win.
Asking people to stop that is dumb in my opinion.
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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Who are these mysterious "shadow allies"? nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 2:34PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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Shadow allies
aesthete (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 2:59PM EST (link)Sounds like a decent name for a mediocre prog rock band.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
5 nt
Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 3:11PM EST (link)conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
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Give it a rest, Neil.
NightTwister (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 3:27PM EST (link)Between this nonsense and what the candidates are doing to themselves and each other, there won’t be a single Republican elected in Colorado in 2010.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
I agree 100%
rdelbov Tuesday, July 20th at 3:48PM EST (link)with you. I have no problem with anyone supporting Buck–he’s a good guy but this take no prisoner approach is not helpful in building party unity.
I might add that Erick could have mentioned that Jane Norton said she was against Amnesty for illegals-for a secure border-for a temporary worker program where only legally registered people would work. Norton hit all the bases on immigration right there.
She also suggested that if the laws were followed many of the 12 million illegals would leave the USA and those who stayed behind may face jail and deportation. She also mentioned that if the illegal did not have a criminal record could be held and determined if they could take part in a temporary worker program.
I think focusing on her views instead of the Cabal aspect would have been more positive.
No to temporary guest worker programs
crassus (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 5:09PM EST (link)Why would you have a ‘temporary’ program when unemployment is 10%? I would support a guest-worker program if the illegal aliens were highly educated and skilled but by and large they are not. Additionally, I do not think that there has ever been a truly ‘temporary’ guest worker program in all human history.
I could be wrong
rdelbov Tuesday, July 20th at 6:18PM EST (link)but folks have not been lining up to chop sugar cane in LA & Florida during the three month summer harvest time. Memphis today is 92 degrees with typical liguid humidity. I can’t imagine being outside today but some folks are harvesting Cane working sixteen hour days right now in the everglades. Most are from Haiti and Domincan Republic. you can’t get Americans to do that work.
Ditto for most of the seasonal harvest work in the fields. I wish it was not so but the “Grapes of Wraith” was bad advertising for stoop field work.
That’s the type of temporary guest worker program Norton and other Republicans envision. From the Apple Orchards of Vermont-NY-Washington to Tomato fields of Florida to lettuce in California there is a place for guest workers.
No one is talking “chickin plants” or pool men in the Hamptons for guest workers. There are legitmate jobs Americans will not do.
'jobs americans won't do' = possibly true
crassus (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 7:12PM EST (link)But, if Americans won’t do them today, why will they do them in 30 years? Why should the guest worker program be temporary?
Because as we all know
aesthete (Diary) Tuesday, July 20th at 6:53PM EST (link)There’s only a limited number of jobs at the jobs bank, and if an immigrant gets the job before you do — whoops! — that’s one less job for you. The economy is dynamic, and Malthusian arguments notwithstanding, more people is typically good in a dynamic economy. Low wage workers with high demand might actually be somewhat good in this recession, as it would mean that their spending is close to 100%, and thus, that people and resources will be employed to meet this demand. Having less people Immigration to this country has long been dominated by young (mostly male), penniless immigrants with little human capital. Also, what would be the problem with a permanent guest-worker program? The Bracero program worked fairly well, all things considered. In fact, it’s only been since ~1965 that we’ve had massively limited immigration of the sort we have today (mostly at the behest of trade unions).
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
About guest workers
crassus (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 4:22PM EST (link)There are definitely some jobs that Americans do not like to do, at least for the current prevailing wages. However, there are a few economic problems with what you’re saying.
(1) Demand is irrelevant to economic growth. Supply creates demand. Increase demand w/out increase supply causes inflation.
(2) Many illegals are doing jobs Americans also do.
(3) Many illegals are kids in school, not workers. This increases education costs even more than for regular kids, because they usually have to do ESOL programs.
(4) The welfare state- this is the biggest problem. I think that there was a post on the front page here earlier that showed $113 billion / yr cost for all government. Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation research said low-skill immigrants have a fiscal cost of $20,000 per year.
(5) Since 1965, America has greatly INCREASED immigration. Between 1921 and 1965, America had much less immigration.
(6) In current conditions, I see no reason for a guest-worker program- at least until the economy is better.
Say's Law
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 5:21PM EST (link)isn’t quite right. For example, having Americans focus on “supplying” 100000 metric tons of fecal matter doesn’t make them any more attractive to a consumer. Lower prices that result from supply help you meet your demand for a product, but generally speaking, supply in and of itself doesn’t increase demand.
Illegals are not even close to being a substitute for Americans. The work that they do is very different from the work of an American on his career trajectory. The most that they affect is juvenile and low-value labor, and repealing min. wage laws would do a lot more for that demographic than removal of illegals. Even if they were, who cares? Economic efficiency and the free market doesn’t care whether work is American, any more than it cares whether it’s unionized or not. If illegals can do the same job Americans do for cheaper, it is an efficient economic solution. In fact, Richardian comparative advantage tells us that it will free up Americans (who have much higher initial human capital) for better jobs with higher productivity and that add more value.
Your points on education and welfare costs are valid. though they aren’t the fiscal problem they’re made out to be. No immigrant, legal or otherwise, should have access to the welfare state.
There have been more restrictions since 1965, most of them unreasonable. We have a much lower immigrant:citizen ratio now than we did in the Ellis Island heyday. Relative to other western nations, we’re in the mid- or low- range. Considering our status as the nation of opportunity, our philosophical embrace of those with other backgrounds, and the advantages that greater immigration has, that’s a travesty: one mostly foisted on us by nativists and trade unions.
Virtually no economists agree with you on immigrants and their economic “cost” during the recession or otherwise. That is nearly unanimous across Keynesians, Neo-classicals and Austrian economists, from Krugman to Milton Friedman. Current low-wage work isn’t even close to equilibrium, and much of the immigrant labor in agriculture, for starters, is not easily substitutable by American labor.
The only justifiable grounds for dealing with illegals, IMO, lie in sovereignty and law and order.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
About guest workers cont.
crassus (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 5:51PM EST (link)http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZWYwOTRlMzVkOGRjNjkyYTIwZjQyZGI5MDY1MTJmYTE=
My point was that it is mostly irrelevant if demand is increased. Just stuffing half of China into out country would not be helpful. Also, as a “nation of opportunity” it is important to note that during the heyday in 1880ish – 1920 there was basically no welfare state- income tax created in 1913. And, it’s not as if there were no problems with immigration then.
I agree with you though, that the biggest problem is the illegal aliens being rewarded. If they are not removed, then it is a sign of weakness- thus, the continuing flow in the 21st century after earlier amnesties. But a guest-worker program is amnesty.
As for other countries, I am virtually certain that no one has anywhere close to 12 million illegal aliens. I am also almost certain that ilegal immigration has never been higher than it is today- 1/2 million per yr.
Okay...
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 11:41PM EST (link)but most of those in the country are gainfully employed, and spend their income ~100%. That might not be a good thing, persay, but it actually isn’t a terrible effect during recessions.
Canada, Australia, and several other countries have a much higher immigrant/citizen ratio than we do, without unusually grand problems. The US can surely accept more than it already is.
We’re agreed that the welfare state is a problem for immigration (what a shock!
), and I’d like to see our laws enforced; the only difference we have is that I see non-violent immigrants as mutually beneficial, while you would only see that to be the case under certain conditions.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
For the commenters above talking about
Scope (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 3:12PM EST (link)the fact that those that do not live in a state, should not voice their opinions on the state’s candidates, well, because they don’t live there, and don’t know what’s really going on there. OK, that’s fair enough. Then those that don’t live in the state should not send any donations to any other state’s candidates, because they don’t really know anything about those candidates, or what’s really going on in that state. If one is not entitled to an opinion, then they can keep their dollars for candidate’s in their own states. You want someone’s money, then you get their voice with it. Call it pay to say.
Scope - agree with the conclusion, but not the logic behind it.
acat (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 3:17PM EST (link)As soon as the congresscritters from states and districts I don’t live in stop passing laws that affect me I’ll shut up about ‘em.
I don’t much care if someone from, say, Colorado or New Hampshire doesn’t like someone from Illinois kibbitzing on “their” race. While the congresscritters are supposed to represent “their” districts or “their” states, in the current bloated-Fed environment, these folk have too much power over the country as a whole.
Until that changes, expect this cat to remain vocal. Don’t like it? Great, the solution is simple – reduce the scope of the Fed.
Mew
——
“All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost”. –Tolkein
acat- I really don't think that my logic is so far off
Scope (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 8:07PM EST (link)My post was in response to the few that live in particular states, trying to control the message. Absolutely if you live in a state, and have some particular information about a candidate/candidates, by all means post your opinion/info. The problem I have is relying on only a small to tiny faction trying to persuade other’s of why a particular candidate is bad/good. We are much more intelligent than that, we have the ability to use the web to find whatever info we can want to have. Read the neswpapers, or other web sites from the state to get a more broad opinion. I know that Redstate is a community, but, when we just automatically give credit to just a few opinions of those that live in a state, we are at the mercy of that persons perceptions of the dynamics, which may not always feed into our own perceptions. I am trying to be tender, but, in reality, would you depend on one used car salesman, and, think that the other salesman’s opinions down the street are invalid, automatically, without ever talking to the guy down the street? Everyone develops their perceptions for very different reasons. I don’t know how else to explain it. Everyone makes their own choices, and, if you want the money, then allow me to tell you why I support you, as opposed to your challenger.
How many diaries has EE posted here where he says, I support X candidate, and, he always tells us why he supports that candidate, as opposed to the others. Does everyone have to buy EE candidates, no absolutely not, and, there is some real lively debate at times. EE asks you to send money to his choice. If you are willing to send money to that candidate, you have a right to an opinion about that candidate. He doesn’t require you to agree, and send money. There are some that want to almost dictate to you that you better not/do support that candidate.
As you have said, every Rep. and every Senator affects not only their districts, they affect the country. Isn’t that then a great argument against simply accepting that some candidates are the best you can get from that area? How many here would send a donation to Snowe or Collins, because it’s the best R the state can produce. How many here are willing to pledge donations to Lindsay Graham because he has an R after his name. That’s part of my point. Even EE said in one case, he would vote for the D because one of the R’s was that bad. I feel the same about some of the candidates that will make you feel like you are trying to see through your fog, to find McCain’s name on the ballot in 08.
The site makes their case for who they support. EE has much influence in turning around elections for those that have seemed to have no chance. I resent some telling me, and you, that you are stupid to back some candidates. I’ll back, and post about who I damn well please. I expect the mods to not allow some really hateful recriminations from those that don’t agree. That’s it in a nutshell.
For asthete below, this is a response to you also. Funny that you are all for total unconditional freedom for all, but, you have entered the fray of – you must listen to these people, because they know best. Poppycock. That ain’t anywhere close to freedom of speech and thought.
Scope, it's not that you can't say anything
aesthete (Diary) Wednesday, July 21st at 3:24PM EST (link)It’s that your opinion counts for less than in-staters, because it is more likely to not comprehensively take into account the state and its political actors.
NightTwister, for example, has seen firsthand the damage that conservative fratricide has done in his particular state, and how it has changed it to being reliably red to purple, or even blue. His fears of it happening again are valid, given this history. An out of stater can be forgiven for not knowing this, and other dynamics, of CO; it’s not his state. This also means that his opinion is likely less informed and valid than the in-stater. A whole bunch of people presumed to know what our state would and should do in the McCain-JD primary. They claimed more knowledge of our state, or simply that our knowledge of our own was irrelevant; come to find out, JD was a fraud, a bad candidate, and would never beat McCain. We told them that from the beginning, and the wise among the out-of-staters took our opinions in consideration in supporting a given candidate. On a more positive note, very few on RS would have thought that Scott Brown had a chance without Swamp_Yankee (a local) informing us.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton