Yes, We Do Need Tort Reform


An 8 year old girl was behind a truck hauling a load of product destined for market. The truck driver put his truck in reverse without checking to see if anything was behind him and ran over the 8 year.

The 8 year old survived, but will be permanently physically disabled. She won $24.3 million in damages.

Sounds relatively reasonable, doesn’t it?

Now, let’s add some facts. The girl was the daughter of the truck driver. The truck driver loaded the girl and her mother into his big rig for a long haul trip for work, with a stop over to visit relatives. The shipping company had no idea and did not give its permission.

When the truck driver decided to leave a stop, he did not bother to make sure his daughter was in the truck with him. He backed up and ran over his own daughter.

So he does what people in California apparently do. He sued someone else. And the people of California did what they apparently do. They gave him money. Of course the jury was not told any of the facts below paragraph 2 of this post. The judge wouldn’t let them.

It is the liberal dream that we can no longer be held liable for our own actions and choices in life. All of us are destined to live together tangled on the government safety net because we might injure ourselves swinging from the trapeze of life.

Ain’t life grand in the Obamatopia? Because California is where we’re all headed on the road to hell.


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36 Comments Leave a comment

sure...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 10:57AM EST (link)

Idiots like this, and judges that give them a stupid verdict like this give all civil cases a bad name, but just because some cases are absurd, does not mean all are.

The concept of limiting the amount I can recover through the courts no matter what the damages are and the circumstances is absolutely disgusting. And companies trying to pass laws limiting their own liability is even worse. I guess as a doctor if I know my max liability is $500K I know I can do whatever I want, and take whatever risks I want because the max I am out is 500K… never mind if I cause permanent damage to a child that will easily need more than 500K in care over the rest of their life.

There are better ways to limit frivolous lawsuits, like making the loser responsible for all court costs for example.

Not quite right

kchand Tuesday, March 9th at 11:12AM EST (link)

The limits are for the ‘pain and suffering’ not the costs for a lifetime of care, as you suggest.

——————–
The ‘N’ word is November! Nov 6, 2012 will be the next cleansing.

uhm....

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:28AM EST (link)

Non-economic damages are the only compensation a jury can provide for the injury itself, as opposed to reimbursement of out-of-pocket expenses such as the plaintiff’s lost wages, medical bills, and legal fees. This type of compensation is especially important for people who do not work outside the home, like the elderly, children, and homemakers. The “worth” of a homemaker’s work inside the home is not easily measured by a dollar amount, and would only be compensated through non-economic damages.

What are you citing?

JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:32AM EST (link)

nt

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

sorry...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:34AM EST (link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-economic_damages_caps

check your source

Beaglescout (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:45AM EST (link)

Wikipedia! Really?

“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”

–Alexander Hamilton

oh no a source I dont agree with!!!

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:54AM EST (link)

Maybe next time you point out your objection to the statement I cited?

What I pasted was a pretty basic statement, its either true or it isn’t…. but instead of coming up with a legitimate criticism you try to attack the credibility of the source.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/n018.htm

there is another link for the definition of non-economic damages if that helps you get over your hatred of wikipedia.

 
 

That explains it--I wouldn't cite Wiki on any current event issue

JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:49AM EST (link)

“Non-economic damages are the only compensation a jury can provide for the injury itself, as opposed to reimbursement of out-of-pocket expenses such as the plaintiff’s lost wages, medical bills, and legal fees. ”

Note that this does NOT say that non-economic damages are the only compensation that the jury can provide to the victim. Reimbursement of out of pocket expenses are still recoverable but they are not the “INJURY ITSELF”

Obviously written by a personal injury lawyer.

In English, Wiki implicitly admits that “medical bills” are always recoverable, but says so in a manner that is as misleading as possible.

Personal injury lawyers . . .

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

uhm... no it didn't

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:56AM EST (link)

It pretty explicitly stated that. I read the article, and I didn’t leave thinking any differently.

It was an article about non-economic damages which happens not to be things like out of pocket expenses.

also...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:57AM EST (link)

For a better breakdown of non-economic vs economic damages see…

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:eiO4TxWbRnsJ:www.hcla.org/factsheets/2003-23-Damages.pdf+%22Non-economic+damages%22&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbQ9YQIrxQFC07MH8mS44QAKsbf5tA

So you admit that medical expenses are not prohibited by tort reform?

JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:06PM EST (link)

Do you also acknowledge that a physician who doesn’t care about injuring patients will lose their license to practice medicine?

Your are telling me that the phrase ““Non-economic damages are the only compensation a jury can provide for the injury itself” isn’t misleading?

The irony of non-economic damages is that plaintiff lawyers argue that non-economic damages must result in economic damages.

We aren’t even talking about excluding all non-economic damages, just capping them. How does that deny anyone a recovery?

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

Consider the following alternative sentence

JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:09PM EST (link)

“Non-economic damages are the only compensation a jury can provide for the injury itself, as opposed to reimbursement of out-of-pocket expenses such as the plaintiff’s lost wages, medical bills, and legal fees [remedies available to injured parties which are not impacted in any way by tort reform]. ”

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

 

nowhere...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:10PM EST (link)

nowhere did I say anything else…

and no its not misleading if you know how to read….

Non-economic damages are the only compensation a jury can provide for the injury itself

So when an 8yr old suffers an injury that will cause her to be disabled for the rest of her life she is only entitled to medical cost + 250K or whatever the cap is because she obviously has no economic costs as she has no job.

So when she is unable to keep a job because of her injury when she is older she will be stuck on the govt dime, because companies managed to make them immune from any real liability.

end result...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:13PM EST (link)

Companies have higher profits, and your tax dollars get to pay for what used to be the companies responsibility.

Ah, those evil corporations who are somehow responsible for medical malpractice because . . .?

JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:22PM EST (link)

Most doctors are not employees, so what the heck are you talking about?

Since when were companies responsible for paying for children injured by medical malpractice committed by doctors?

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

 
 

Many disabled people work, ever hear of the ADA?

JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:20PM EST (link)

Moreover, SSD exists specifically for this scenario.

Its almost like you are arguing “the world isn’t perfect, the world isn’t perfect”–and you are of course right on that point.

But a world in which doctors are used as ATM machines is hardly perfect either, and there are many parts of the country where doctors are hard to find.

Public policy always involves tradeoffs, and uncapped non-economic damages have a lot of negative externalities.

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

From the Tort Reform Institute

Scope (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:33PM EST (link)

http://www.atra.org/show/7343

This site has more info than most will ever need to know.

Because Wiki has had so much miss/wrong/misleading/non-factual info contained in it’s descriptions, it is not reliable info. It comes from the fact that so many can “edit” info contained, and, some do for their own personal benefit or interest. For example, check out Global Warming or Climate Change.

What is the economic value of non-economic damages?

Beaglescout (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:52PM EST (link)

I am challenging your predicate, and the predicate that Wikipedia and all lefty-sources base their pro-court-lottery position on.

Sometimes people are hurt by their own fault, or through total accident. They don’t deserve someone else’s money for it. That’s life. Why should the courts decide that someone who has no fault, and only a tenuous connection, to an accident be forced to pay compensation for the results of an accident? If a private citizen forces such a payment it’s called theft. Why isn’t it theft when it’s arbitrated through the courts?

“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”

–Alexander Hamilton

Beaglescout- I don't think you can possibly responding to me

Scope (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 8:26PM EST (link)

I made no comment, other than to link a site.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I feel bad for the jury

mustango (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 11:11AM EST (link)

Frankly if I made that kind of decision based on the facts I was given (and I thoroughly suspect I would) I’d seriously want to vomit after hearing the “inadmissible” part of the story.

“I just miss — I miss being anonymous.” — Barack Obama

I fully sympathize, Mr. President. I miss you being anonymous too.

 

Every time I hear one of those slip and fall lawyers advertising on the radio specializing in drunk drivers

bobojake (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:01PM EST (link)

I think of obama old firm. It must of been called Lyin and Lyin representing you.

 

That's why I love what Marco Rubio said

Scope (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:08PM EST (link)

I know the story above is not about medical malpractice, but with Obamacare in the air 24/7, everyone seems to be talking about tort reforn, as if it only applies to medical malpractice. Marco has talked about lawsuit refrom.

It is all about the ambulance chasers. The higher the jury award, the higher their legal fees. Daily, there is a barage of ads on TV, asking you to call this ambulance chaser or that if you took – name the drug, it’s probably on the list. If these drugs are so dangerous, doesn’t the FDA have something to do with that? I wonder how much these lawsuits have driven up the cost of drugs with the drug companies.

The tobacco companies are another target. They have awarded gazzilions of dollars to people who didn’t know it was dangerous to smoke?????? As far back as 10 years ago, cave dwellers knew it was unhealthy.

I agree with the poster above, anyone filing a frivilous lawsuit, or loses in court, should be required to pay the legal fees of the aggrieved party. Actually, the plaintiff’s attorney should also be required to pay as much as the plaintiff.

 

Not a case for tort reform

WD (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:15PM EST (link)

If by tort reform you mean limiting the amount of damages available in this case, I disagree that this case signals a need for tort reform. Rather, it sounds like the judge made some bad decisions about what evidence the jury heard, and whether certain affirmative defenses were available to the defendants. I am not familiar with California tort law, but I suspect that this award will get reversed on appeal.

If California or any other state enacted tort reform to “fix” this case, it would also “fix” any case where the little girl was unrelated to the truck driver, meaning the girl’s family could not get compensated for her injuries. At most, this case shows that California needs to replace this particular judge, reform its rules on evidence, or revise its rules on affirmative defenses.

exactly!!

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:19PM EST (link)

you said it better than I ever could

depends what you mean by "compensated for her injuries"

JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:43PM EST (link)

They would be able to recover:

Medical bills/expenses
Non-economic damages up to the capped amount
Lost wages of the parents for missed work in caring for the child
Legal fees

The items above are hardly the absence of a compensation

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:58PM EST (link)

you must have missed my point above….

Children have no economic damages, and since non-economic damages are to be capped, the child ends up down the river without a paddle so to speak.

well..

dave_in_atl (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 1:08PM EST (link)

I should say they “none” compared to an average working adult.

Economic damages in a situation involving a child include . ..

JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 1:54PM EST (link)

Medical expenses
Childcare expenses/lost parent wages
Legal fees

So except for what is included, nothing is included.

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

 
 
 
 
 
 

Even if it wasn't his daughter

Kyle-MI (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:21PM EST (link)

Let me play the big mean conservative for a second. What if it wasn’t his own daughter? How is it the fault of the company and not the driver? Was he not given adequate enough training? Should the company have a strongly defined written rule that every driver needs to sign off on? Did the driver have a history of reckless actions such that the company should have fired him in order for them to prevent something like this from happening?

Or is it because the company has more money than the driver. Certainly in this case it would have been foolish to sue the driver because he would have been just paying himself. But even if it had not been his own driver, would the family have sued the driver and not the company? Are all companies at fault just because they have deeper pockets, no matter what precautions they take and no matter how many idiot rules they have on the books? Is this justice?

55555 -nt-

Beaglescout (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:57PM EST (link)

“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”

–Alexander Hamilton
 

An employer is responsible for the acts of its employee

Achance (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 12:58PM EST (link)

provided the employee is acting within the scope of his/her employment. I suspect that the company either didn’t have adequate policies in place to make the driver responsible or, more likely, either the judge didn’t allow or the jury didn’t accept the big, rich company’s excuses.

I know I was almost always willing to put up six figures to settle regardless of my perception of the merits because juries would simply ignore State defenses and find a way to make the big, rich State government pay the employees. ‘Course it never occurs to them apparently that it is their money they’re pi$$ing away by giving it to some scumbag.

I also know that I saw thousands of complaints, grievances, and lawsuits during my career and for every one that had even a shred of merit, there were a thousand that were just scams. I came to almost automatically dismiss any claim of discrimination, harassment, or disability because they were the refuge of rogues. I could count on my fingers the complainants that weren’t already in trouble for misconduct or poor performance before they suddenly discovered that they were being discriminated against, harrassed, or had some disability.

In Vino Veritas

What should companies be doing?

Kyle-MI (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 4:30PM EST (link)

I understand your point and don’t disagree with it.

What frustrates me is looking at it from the point of view of a responsible businessman who wants to create as safe a working situation as reasonably possible. Even if they have the best intentions and set the best rules as reasonably possible, they are still held responsible for the situation.

Stories like this show that the justice system is unreasonable and unjust. It is not just the punitive damage amounts. The civil justice system itself is out of wack. We cannot keep functioning as a society under these conditions. Why would any sane person want to start a business?

Thorough and thoughtful policy-making is the only defense,

Achance (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 5:44PM EST (link)

and it isn’t a total defense because juries will just blast right past your policies. It does give you some hope on appeal, but appeals take money.

I used to teach our law enforcement and corrections supervisors a class on Discrimination and Harassment in Law Enforcement. Now let me tell you; cops and COs have lots of opportunities to discriminate and harass and even more opportunities to get accused of it. There’s a book called “Games Criminals Play” that you might find interesting. Anyway, we told them point blank that we believe that we had the policies and procedures in place to make any problem with discrimination or harassment into the employee or line supervisor’s problem and we’d cut them loose and throw them under the bus in a heartbeat.

In Vino Veritas

 
 
 

5

DaveWT4 (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 2:26PM EST (link)

The article says that the driver did not seek the company’s permission to bring his wife and daughter with him on the trip. How can the company be held liable when the only reason she was injured was because the father violated the company rules?

 
 

Proper focus of tort reform

JamesLBurns (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 9:37PM EST (link)

Personally, I think the focus on damages is misplaced. The number of awards like this are very small and, while they get lots of press, they are not the driving force in litigation costs.

Rather than focus on the damages, I would focus first on the standards for bringing and prevailing in litigation. It’s the litany of baseless suits that companies must defend that drive up costs. The cost of responding to the most baseless lawsuit starts in the tens of thousands of dollars, can run quickly into the hundreds of thousands of dollars once you get into discovery. Of course, most of these expenses are one-sided because they plaintiff has no documents to produce, no employees to prep for depositions, and on and on. So start with things like:
- Statutes of Repose to limit suits based on items manufactured long ago under different standards.
- Higher pleading standards with sanctions that actually have bite to prevent a shotgun approach to litigation — look at the caption on an asbestos claim to see that any company that maybe might have made something that touched asbestos gets named, regardless of the jobs the plaintiff held.
- Preclude judges from adopting new theories of liability — this should be the provence of the legislature, not activist judges.

If you want to look at damages, especially in med-mal type cases, I would limit damages in simple negligence cases — you are dealing with human decision-making, perfection cannot be expected. Eliminate the caps for gross negligence or recklessness, but make sure the standard for meeting those is meaningful.

The interesting thing, while the left is fond of looking to Europe for how to do things, I suspect they would be strongly opposed to adopting a European style litigation structure. The chance of a 24.3mm verdict in Europe. Zero.

 

The major problem I have ...

skorrent1 (Diary) Tuesday, March 9th at 9:44PM EST (link)

With Tort Law is the concept of “punitive damages”. These are punishments imposed by a court after conviction for a misdeed. As such, they should be governed by the Constitutional prohibition against “cruel and unusual punishment”. Guidelines should be passed by Legislature, penalties imposed by the judge, not a jury, and collected by the court (as are other fines for misdeeds), not the plaintiff (or his lawyer). The purpose of tort action should be to make the (successful) plaintiff whole (as much as possible) not to make him rich.

And, of course,” loser pays”.