Obama Makes the Scientists Mad


The scientific community has been thrown into a tizzy over one of Barack Obama’s latest appointments.

The group that has fallen into worship of Mother Earth through her religion of global warming are mortified that Barack Obama put an admitted Christian in charge of the National Institutes of Health.

Dan Gilgoff has the details.

One prominent critic, Paul Z. Myers, a biologist at the University of Minnesota, Morris, who runs the anticreationist blog Pharyngula, faults Collins for suggesting that altruism cannot be explained by evolution and instead came from God. “Collins has got some big gaps in his understanding of the field of evolutionary biology,” Myers says. In comments this spring on Pharyngula, others fretted that Collins’s beliefs could influence his decisions on topics such as stem cells and sex research.

The magazine Science has a full article on the post. Remember, Science is the magazine that won’t print articles that don’t toe the scientific community’s group thought on a host of issues, including but not limited to global warming. When Science runs an article, you can be sure a good portion of the scientific community agrees.

As Dan Gilgoff notes:

What stands out in the piece is that Collins’s faith is never treated as a potentially positive attribute for his leadership at NIH, other than as a public relations gesture to show Americans that faith and science aren’t irreconcilable.


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We in the scientific community know well

mbauer (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 9:12AM EST (link)

that faith is an inherit negative and shunned upon by our peers. It is near impossible to win highly prestigious awards if you are a known believer in creationism. I know personally a person who was not considered for a Nobel prize strictly for this reason.

And it’s frustrating, when so many in the scientific community really never stray from their area of expertise, they are no more masters of every specialty than anyone else. They just accept what the community says is fact. And believe me, after putting together some lit reviews, mistakes in publications are more or less the norm.

I want to see your evidence.

Bioinformaticus_Maximus (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 10:05AM EST (link)

Will you please name a known believer in “creationism” as you call it who has an extensive publication record in peer-reviewed journals and who has made groundbreaking discoveries with real-world applications? The problem with “creationism” is that it is insular. It does not produce anything that anyone outside the movement can build on. The measure of science, that it builds on previous work. If “creationism” were science, we would have cures based on its “discoveries”. I know that if I point out that understanding viral evolution has improved HIV therapy you will try to zing me back that creationists believe in microeveolution. Well, if you have to agree with the mechanism of natural selection, the rest of evolutionary theory pretty much logically follows.

Creationism isn’t science and it isn’t even religion. If Collins can be deeply religious and yet see that life did not always take the forms that it takes at the present moment is an inspiration.

I think it is good that scientists stay close to their field of expertise. We should all at be able to recognize and admit when we are out of our depth.

Before you prepare a 10-page response, I would warn you that I don’t engage in flame-wars with “creationists”. When you guys start producing better synthetic materials, cures to deadly diseases and innovations that help to feed the world (as science has), then you and I can have a talk.

“Mistakes in publications” sadly is the norm, but what does that prove?

In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not.
-Attributed to Yogi Berra

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Well aren't we an arrogant cuss (nt)

Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 10:13AM EST (link)

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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If you're really interested in looking

wayneinnh (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 11:16AM EST (link)

I guess you can start with Dr. Michael Behe. Here is a good beginning. You may also want to check out this list.

Well, if you have to agree with the mechanism of natural selection, the rest of evolutionary theory pretty much logically follows.

I know as you’ve stated that you won’t debate it. However, this will not go off without a response. While life forms may mutate, they do not gain genetic information.

A bird population on an island may evolve into a population with different characteristics like beak size for instance, but this is done through a loss of genetic information. The birds with smaller bills will not survive because of the inability to gather food from deep cracks, therefore the ones with longer bills mate with other long billed birds and create long billed offspring. There is no gain of genetic information. They lack the ability to grow gills and swim off the island to find food. A bird will never become a fish. Just as humans, we lack the genetic information to grow wings and fly. No matter how scarce the food supply becomes on earth.

Jon 14:6 –
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

It’s not intellectual to believe we evolved from hydrogen gas.

 

Well, you just have to have a clue first before you write stuff like this.

Chemical Sam (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 12:14PM EST (link)

I’ll bite, anyway.

Some of the most pious people who ever lived did more to advance science than atheists I can think of. Here are some quick examples:

For optics and shadow and flow mechanics (among a thousand other things): Leonardo DaVinci (Catholic)
For evolution: Charles Darwin (Anglican, stopped short of becoming an Anglican parson himself)
For taxonomy: Carl Linnaeus For genetics: Gregor Mendel (actively an Augustan Priest at the time)
For botany and agriculture: George Washingon Carver (Protestant)
For chemistry: Robert Boyle: eponym of the Law, and defender of the Christian faith)

For astronomy, we have
Nicolaus Copernicus (Catholic)
Galileo Galilei (a Catholic nearly excommunicated for his troubles)
leading to planetary motion: Johannes Kepler (a devout Catholic)
leading to more astronomy: Jeremiah Horrox (an English curate, Calvinist, and possibly a Puritan)
leading to general motion: Issac Newton (Anglican with a difference of opinion or two)

Let’s try some non-Christians believers while we’re at it.
Albert Einstein: relativisitic physics (Jew)
Eratosthenes of Cyrene: (Ptolemeic Greek)

Never mind all the pure mathemeticians, philosophers, doctors of medicine, who hear a higher calling, and excel scientifically because of it.
How about poets, musicians, artists, authors?

I could go on and on about this, find examples of religiously motivated scientific greatness in every major religion and most of the minor ones, spanning 5000 years up to the present day, but this much should illustrate my point:

Religion isn’t antithetical to science. Religion motivated, and continues to motivate, science and universal understanding. The great achievements in science, music, mathematics and philosophy are by and large the domain of devoutly religious people.

I defy you to do the same for atheists in any great number.

It is atheistic notions –collectivism, socialism, fascism, nihilism, and even a dismissive rejection of meeting religious zealotry head on– that are the real banes on Society in the last Century and the next.

Criterion Chemical was in the black for FY2010!
Not bad considering the forces arrayed against small business these days.
Let’s see about actually making some serious profit this year. Shameless capitalism, by:
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More to the point, Creationism in some form was the conventional wisdom for all these people.

Chemical Sam (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 12:34PM EST (link)

and their scientific discoveries only cemented their relationship with their God(s).

Criterion Chemical was in the black for FY2010!
Not bad considering the forces arrayed against small business these days.
Let’s see about actually making some serious profit this year. Shameless capitalism, by:
www.criterionchemical.com

 

Excellent chem Sam. Those are some of the most prominent

penguin2 (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 12:40PM EST (link)

and important Scientific achievers for mankind.

I believe there is a site/organization of Christian scientists., of which I believe Dr. Collins is a member. But I can’t remember where I wrote it down. I saw it one time when I was reading about the Human Geome project and Dr. Collins. I think even Parade magazine had an article on it. I was happy to see that there are scientists who have religious beliefs. The MSM only reports those that don’t.

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Chemical Sam's dropcloth.

ctyankee44 Tuesday, July 28th at 8:16AM EST (link)

Scientific notables all. Also an easy list to compile because the various churches had such an authoritarian role throughout history. They also provided the means of support, protection, and the time to conduct the research. All in all an ideal fopr discovery, if not always one for publication… :^)

But that’s not what I’m replying to…

“I defy you to do the same for atheists in any great number.”

That’s tougher because there has never a great number of atheists until quite recently.

It is atheistic notions –collectivism, socialism, fascism, nihilism, and even a dismissive rejection of meeting religious zealotry head on– that are the real banes on Society in the last Century and the next.

Now you’re getting nasty — :^) A little reversal of cause & effect perhaps. Those notions you identifies are repulsive and repugnant to *this* atheist (with the possible exception of Solipsism – you exist in my mind because I’m responding to you — but I can’t prove it)

I think we can only speculate what real effect the faith of the appointee will have at the NIH??? It’s likely the agenda will be to advance causes that make the nanny state seem more palatable to the dumb-masses — but that’s what is so inconsistent…

The administration is collectivist, socialist, fascist — how they’ve managed to twist the minds of the faithful who supposedly oppose these philosophies is somewhat mysterious. Perhaps Presbo is the anti-christ? Time to review my Nostradamus.

The Light is Green!
.

I carry my own dropcloth, thank you.

Chemical Sam (Diary) Monday, September 7th at 11:58AM EST (link)

The current administration has nothing to with the subject above.

My point was that the basis for scientific discoveries was in large part motivated by mankind’s desire to reveal God. However, their respective churches played no direct part in their works, funding, promotion, or otherwise. No church fostered that process back in the day. They only get into trouble when they do now. These people are remembered by virtue of their discoveries, not by virtue of which church promoted their discoveries more effectively.

Would one discount Einstein’s theories simply because he was a Jew? The Nazis did, and it cost them. Did the Jewish faith front his theories? Do the Jewish faithful now promote themselves as part of “the Religion of Einstein”? No.

The underlying point is that science and faith are mutually exclusive qualities of man, except that one can drive mankind to seek the other. They shouldn’t be confused or conflated, and neither should be dismissed. If they are to be taught in schools, they must be taught separately and not supplant one another. You’re argument is with that small group of people that wish to substitute creationism with falsifiable scientific theories of any kind, namely evolution. I agree that shouldn’t happen. But the motivation for that is based in ignorance about how religion drove the conclusions of theories about evolution, and true human freedoms. You know, the self-evident, individual ones that collectivists and atheists by definition must destroy in order to succeed..

I find atheists particularly dismissive of other peoples beliefs and find that their motivation for advances in science beyond mere data collection and cataloging lacks any real spark.

So, yes, I am hard-pressed to cite notable atheists in scientific fields, even in this century. They are woefully unimaginitive people, and it shows.

Heckl, I’ll even go farther and say that religion is the main motivator for many excellent works of science fiction (and some imaginitive, but poorly written ones) All the books written about the ideal Utopia, which then begat all the works about the real horrors of the dystopias that have resulted in pursuit of that ideal, have both religion and science behind them.

Criterion Chemical was in the black for FY2010!
Not bad considering the forces arrayed against small business these days.
Let’s see about actually making some serious profit this year. Shameless capitalism, by:
www.criterionchemical.com

 
 
 

...

mbauer (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 12:28PM EST (link)

I’ll start at the end and work backwards I guess-

“Mistakes in publications” refers to those things that for a period of time the best science says is true, but in time, (usually under 2 years, but not always) we find evidence otherwise. Sometimes these mistakes are say… missing a phase change in voltage, or sometimes fundamental calculus mistakes. They happen. But to say current “scientific facts” are always correct is just ignorant of the process.

“10 pages” I’m not interested in this dialogue, nor do i intend to waste that much time here. Your prejudice is shown in your generalization of me, someone who has never claimed to believe in creationism, as someone who can’t perform the same level of science.

“Area of expertise”
I didn’t say this was a flaw in itself, I just implied that the title scientist or engineer doesn’t begin to make you the resident expert on every technical field.

“Will I please name him”
No I will not. It is not my place to bring up personal struggles of peers publicly.

Here’s the bottom line, no matter what I believe some supreme being does, I still believe that said being works outside of my comprehension and I’d never scientifically prove such an existence. So I take science as fact, but I can belief truth outside of that fact and keep the 2 separate.

It is time for your side to admit the previous paragraph is acceptable and move beyond this type of debate.

 

It's not my evidence that is disturbing, it is the lack of yours.

The_Gadfly (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 12:29PM EST (link)

Like Plato decreeing that heavy objects fall faster than light ones, you assert micro-evolution proves macro evolution. Real scientists would perform the experiments in which they could test and observe that hypothesis, much like Newton did some centuries later with light and heavy objects. To date, there are no such observations on macro evolution. There are dead things dug up that one scientist or another claims layout a road map. It’s a good story, but that’s all it is, a story, not an observation.

I recall an experiment we did with fruit flies back in high school. We had one set of control fruit flies and several sets which we exposed to various levels of chemical mutangens and radiation (microwave) to study mutations. I recall having 5 containers for the flies for each of our groups, 5 groups doing the experiment, and running 4 sets of data during the course of the experiment. I don’t recall how many flies we look at each time we checked the samples, but given their growth rate, 50 per cycle seems reasonable. Now according to the government (http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ovae/pi/hs/hsfacts.html) there are about 35,000 high schools in the US. So, if we assume that high schools started doing these experiments around 1965 (a couple of years after Watson and Crick published about DNA), that means there should have been at least 7.7 BILLION fruit flies examined by high school students, and that’s going to exclude all the national laboratories running these things through far longer testing cycles. Yet for all the billions of fruit flies that have been examined in circumstance that, if macro-evolution were going to be true, ought to increase the chance of observing such an event, there hasn’t been ONE report of a non-standard mutation, let alone some sort of potentially species improving mutation. If anyone were to find such a mutation under laboratory conditions, it would be a world recognized advancement for macro-evolutionary theory.

But it’s not just that nobody has found it. It’s that no one is even looking for it. If biologists really believed it, they’d be looking for it, just like astronomers went looking for Mercury’s perturbations when Einstein proposed his general theory of relativity. On that basis I conclude that even Nobel prize winners don’t really believe in macro-evolution, they just demand cult-like adherence to a belief system which lacks scientific rigor and proof.

 
 
 

That US News link is a nice one

Bill S (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 9:36AM EST (link)

That section at the end that you quote from is excellent, and a point that seldom gets made wrt. people of faith in the sciences.

Scientific progress since the earliest times has been helped by faith – it did not happen in spite of it.

“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins

 

I don't believe it.

Bioinformaticus_Maximus (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 9:48AM EST (link)

Francis Collins is very highly respected. He was head of the Human Genome Project. If a few malcontents use him as an opportunity to write some angry nonsense about science vs. faith, I don’t believe that is a barometer of what the scientific community feels. Most scientists have faith, but the more outspoken voices are usually don’t.

The American journal Science is not just any old rag – it is the premiere scientific journal in the world. I am sorry but you are wrong about Science. They do publish both sides of the AGW debate. Please execute the following search: christy jr[author] science at PubMed. John R. Christy is in my opinion the most articulate and informed anti-AGW scientist. For those who are not yet aware of his work, I reccomend Global Warming – what do the numbers show Even if you agree with AGW you will learn something from watching it so I recommend it either way.

There is of course a significant “rope-a-dope” aspect to the nomination. An outspoken Christian with impeccable scientific credentials is sure to grab a few moderates and conservatives to his side.

May I suggest a couple of themes that might be more to the point of Obama/Democrats offending Scientists?

1) Obama believes in AGW but refuses to give anything more than lip service to nuclear. Clearly appeasing the (so-called) environmental lobby is more important than this problem of AGW. As a personal note, I think that AGW is hugely overblown, but nuclear does not cause acid rain or CO2 emissions and actually releases less radiation into the air due to the fact that coal stocks are contaminated with radioactive material and release smoke that kills due to cancer while a properly run nuclear plant does not release smoke or radiation.

update: By appointing Reid-aide Jaczko, Obama puts a final nail in the coffin of Yucca.

2) Congressman Conyers is against the government forcing researchers to disclose the results of government-funded research. This is a no-brainer. We paid for it, we should get to see the results.

3) Violent “animal rights” terrorists who destroy research and attack the personal property and threaten the safety of animal researchers are oh, nearly 100%

A good conservative science blog: http://conservativesforscience.blogspot.com

In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not.
-Attributed to Yogi Berra

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Science is not a rag...but neither is it the premier scientific journal in the world.

Chemical Sam (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 12:51PM EST (link)

It is a popular magazine, a venue for hot topics, really, for popular consumption. I have a subscription that comes to the house periodically. The wife use it for as “light reading”. We use it to find out where to go to find out about something, the way high school children should use Wikipedia when writing their senior paper (if they even do those anymore).

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences is flatly hijacked by AGW proponents. In Proceedings journals, all you have to do is give a presentation somewhere, and you’re in. It, along with Science and Nature, is cited constantly throughout the IPCC reports, and (surprise, surprise) none of the hard-core periodicals, where the real peer reviewing begins, or science is established, are cited.

If Science is doing any AGW rebuttals, it is doing so just lately, because real scientists are starting to gain their voice on why AGW is wrong, and Science can’t afford to have its reputation further diminished by junk science any longer.

Criterion Chemical was in the black for FY2010!
Not bad considering the forces arrayed against small business these days.
Let’s see about actually making some serious profit this year. Shameless capitalism, by:
www.criterionchemical.com

Editorially, "Science" Is a Rag

IJB Monday, July 27th at 1:16PM EST (link)

And has been for probably a long time. That’s true of pretty much most(all?) professional journals and such – they’ve all been hijacked by the Leftie types that always gravitate towards those kinds of jobs. It’s a self-selected population of the people who want to write ‘editorial’ pieces for those, and other types of, publications.

Yes, I agree with you.

Chemical Sam (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 4:54PM EST (link)

But I don’t read the editorials. They are perceptive, or political, and completely irrelevant to science. I come here for my politics, I can’t swallow it in Science. It’s the wrong venue.

I hadn’t seen much anti-AGW stuff , and stopped looking for it a while ago. If it’s popping up now, great. If not, shame on them.

Criterion Chemical was in the black for FY2010!
Not bad considering the forces arrayed against small business these days.
Let’s see about actually making some serious profit this year. Shameless capitalism, by:
www.criterionchemical.com

 
 

No anti-AGW editorials in Science

Bioinformaticus_Maximus (Diary) Monday, July 27th at 2:39PM EST (link)

to my knowledge, but anti-AGW people can still publish in the journal.

Editorially, I am sure that they are overwhelmingly liberal but in the long run this won’t matter to science as long as they publish high quality scientifically significant work.

I don’t think we are speaking about the same journal Science. I am speaking about the journal published by AAAS.

As for PNAS, it is one of the most difficult journals in the world to publish in. Science, Nature and PNAS are all peer reviewed. The last thing I would want is to kick either side out of the journal.

Journals publish research which they, through the peer review process believe to be correct, original and of significance. Both sides of the debate are able to pass these three tests and both sides are capable of publishing. I do see a point to be made about the IPCC. They always go farther than the facts will allow. The reason that they cite Science, Nature and PNAS is that these are three of the world’s best journals. Scientists like John R. Christy also cite Science, Nature and PNAS for the same reason.

In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not.
-Attributed to Yogi Berra

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