Say no to bailing out the auto industry


The Don’t Go Movement has up a petition I’d encourage you to sign. It’s to ask the government to not bail out the auto industry.

From the letter accompanying the petition:

A free market is a market in which property rights are voluntarily exchanged at a price arranged completely by the mutual consent of sellers and buyers. If the seller, or the buyer, finds that a business decision has less than desirable consequences, we believe it is the responsibility of the party involved to find a solution to the problem.

Forcing taxpayers to pay for bad business decisions is not the solution. Nor is it the American way.


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Two Things

Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 11:53AM EST (link)

1) The phrase “Bail Out” works. Now that Democrats are taking over, they are trying to move away from that phrase to “invest” in their pet industries. It is a bail out. Americans hate bail outs. Don’t let the Dems win the war of words again.

2) Obama knows this is a political loser. That is why they are pushing this now. They want this to fall of Bush’s lap. Obama does not want to tackle the UAW job bank and other labor excesses that will be exposed. He also doesnt want the bailout tag attached to him. Tell the Bush administration not to act. Let Obama actually make a tough decision for once and watch him catch flak.

 

So if I am already making a car payment to GM,

MORepublican (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 12:04PM EST (link)

does this mean I can stop making payments if the bailout goes through? GM will have my tax money, so why give it more?

GM – pronounced “gimme” from now on in my book.

“Free Government Requires Active Citizens”

 

Definition of failure

CFPeterson (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 1:30PM EST (link)

The definition of failure:

The have the opportunity to try again with a better plan.

 

Let GM do like the airlines (except Southwest)

mbecker908 (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 1:33PM EST (link)

And go to BK Court. Hopefully the Court will teach the braindead management team how to deal with a union contract and with retirees benefit costs.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not blaming the UAW for GM’s (or Ford’s) woes. Unions are like petulant children, their job is to stomp their feet and demand what they can’t or shouldn’t have. Unfortunately for the auto industry, there are no adults to deal with them.

You're second point

exitsfunnel Thursday, November 13th at 1:36PM EST (link)

I think that there is a lot of truth to point number two, but the strategy won’t work in the long run. None of the amounts of money being bandied about do anything but tide GM over temporarily. I think that their financial situation is so much worse than almost anyone realizes. So, even if the democats someone manage to wrangle $50 billion dollars out of the administration, all that does is push the issue under the rug for twelve more months until Wagoner comes around with his hand out again.

At some point the Obama administration is going to have to face the issue and there are only two choices. Either nationalize the auto industry or let them go into bankruptcy – GM as it’s currently configured and operating under its current labor contracts is simply not a viable company.

-exits

Hopefully Bush resists this...

free2fly Thursday, November 13th at 1:39PM EST (link)

I couldn’t agree more that the Bush administration needs to push this into Obama’s lap. Bush is already taking the heat for the bad economy, when we all know everything was fine until 2006…Of course Obama is pushing this now. He only cares about himself and his legacy, not the American people. If he, or anyone pushing for the bailout, cared about the American people and their tax dollars this bill wouldn’t even be on the table.

“Im not a republican because I grew up rich, but because I didn’t want to spend the rest of my life poor, waiting for the government to rescue me.”

Gimmme

exitsfunnel Thursday, November 13th at 1:40PM EST (link)
 
 
 
 

With all due respect - IT IS NOT AN AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT

Jack_Savage (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 1:48PM EST (link)

It is a UNION BAILOUT. We absolutely have to change our language about this. Unlike the right honorable gentleman mbecker, I AM blaming the unions.

Want proof, you say? When in the world would Nanny Pelosi and Harry Reid ever, ever, EVER want to bail out a non-union industry? EVER? When have they ever done anything but ATTACK non-union business and industry? Well?

2006

exitsfunnel Thursday, November 13th at 2:05PM EST (link)

Everything wasn’t fine until 2006, and I think that we’d be best served not to try and make that argument if we want to be taken seriously. The writing was on the wall long before then, the bubble just hadn’t actually burst. I hate Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid as much as the next guy, but blaming any of this on their congress explicitly just makes us look silly.

-exits

Wow...

liberalrepublican (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 2:13PM EST (link)

I actually agree with you.

Amazing.

“Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. … including extensive freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market or mixed economy”

More on the Unions

MSU_Charles Thursday, November 13th at 2:31PM EST (link)

First, I am 100% against a bailout for this group. The Big 3 have been working under failed business strategies for years and it is time to reorganize. However, I think that we are going to have a bailout forced on us anyway, so I would like someone in Washington to answer the follow:

“What is the UAW giving up?”

Since it will be the largest indirect benefactor of the bailout, I believe it should agree to at least the following (I would love to see others ideas to what the union should give up):

  1. As long as $1 of tax money is beging used by any of the Big 3 Auto companies, the union executive salaries should be reduced by the same percentages that will be required for the salaries of the Big 3 executives.

  2. Unions should suspend the pension management fees charged to its members, that is actually paid by the Big 3.

  3. Unionized Employees of the Big 3 should agree to a reduction in total compensation benefits. I am not stating that they should reduce take home pay, but should at least begin paying part of their own health plans (like the rest of us do). They can structure it however they wish, but their is no reason the rest of us are paying the health benefits of these people.

  4. Those unionized employees that are no longer needed should be cut loose completely. No more of these job banks where non-needed workers watch TV for $65 an hour.

Washington should also answer the following:

“Currently, each Big 3 company is blowing through $1 Billion per month in cash, so that means that the bailout money will only carry them a maximum of 8 months. Does this mean we should expect to give them another $25 billion at that time? If so, where does this bailout nonsense end?

You're absolutely right...

free2fly Thursday, November 13th at 2:32PM EST (link)

They knew before 2006 that things would eventually get worse, I was just trying to point out the fact that Bush is taking all the heat for the economy and he shouldn’t be. Pelosi and Reid have done nothing to help the situation. They promised the American people change if they elected democrats and now we are in a bigger mess. There were absolutely signs like the slowing housing market and gas prices. But in early 2006 people were still taking vacations and buying cars because consumer confidence was high, gas prices, although higher than when Bush was elected, were not as high as what we have seen since, unemployment was around 4.5%, and dow jones hit a record high. I’m not saying things were perfect before the democrats were elected, I’m just saying that ever since things have only gone from bad to much worse.

“Im not a republican because I grew up rich, but because I didn’t want to spend the rest of my life poor, waiting for the government to rescue me.”

LOL

mom2oneson (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 2:35PM EST (link)

I agree

Jack_Savage (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 2:49PM EST (link)

This bailout is like driving a drunk home every night expecting to cure his alcoholism.

Yes, this should be a no-brainer.

ColoKid Thursday, November 13th at 2:53PM EST (link)

The US auto industry’s problem is two-fold: poor sales and the crushing effect of the too-generous union contracts. Let ‘em file for Chapter 11 in bankruptcy court. They’ll stay in business while they reorganize, and the Court can supervise the renegotiation of the union contracts. That won’t help their sales problems, but at least the taxpayers won’t be on the hook if they can’t find a way to sell more cars. The Dems are obviously just pushing for the bailout to help their union constituency.

I agree as well. +5

HsvConservative Thursday, November 13th at 4:02PM EST (link)

Excellent points.

What do you mean, exits?

Jack_Savage (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 4:57PM EST (link)

All the data show that the economy was doing well – we know that the housing bubble was in process, but besides that, what was so terrible before 2006?

You missed a couple of folds.

mbecker908 (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 4:57PM EST (link)
  1. As bad as their union contracts are, their exempt hiring and their organization chart is probably 10 times worse. Their union contracts need to reduce the wage package by 25 to 30% but they need to cut their overhead staff by at least that much.
  2. Branding. Time is long past to kill off what are essentially identical brands.

I Beleive He Is Talking Auto Industry

Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 5:02PM EST (link)

which has been sick for decades.

mbecker

mom2oneson (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 5:05PM EST (link)

When the stock price dropped earlier this week I thought of your post, I thought now is his chance! ;)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

NO to Auto Industry Bailout

redneck_hippie (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 9:16PM EST (link)

Signed. Gladly.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 

Don't bail out bad management and stockholders

SeriousLaff (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 10:03PM EST (link)

In college, my economics professor was talking about the Chrysler bailout in the 70′s. He said, “let them go bankrupt. You don’t have to burn down the factory or shoot the employees. The stockholders and management change. That’s all.”

Your professor is an idiot.

mbecker908 (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 10:42PM EST (link)

The Chrysler “bail out” is a model of how a “good” bail out could/should happen. Lee Iaccoca asked for and got loan guarantees from Congress. When he made the request, he had a new marketing plan they’d just put in place, he had promises of – for the time – significant concessions from the UAW, and they were in the process of streamlining their salaried workforce.

When all was said and done, Chrysler got their federal loan guarantees, they got loans at favorable market rates from commercial sources, they implemented their plans and paid back the loans, never missing a payment and not costing the federal government one nickel.

This time around, it’s a wholly different scenario. The auto manufacturers are going to DC hat in hand begging for money with no marketing plan, no concessions from UAW, no plan to streamline their salaried workforce. They don’t want loan guarantees, they want welfare. And $25B won’t even begin to fix the problem because they will simply piss the money down the same rat hole they’ve been throwing cash for decades.

The part your prof is right about is let ‘em file BK.

No, he is not an idiot

SeriousLaff (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 11:19PM EST (link)

Chrysler got a billion dollars in loan guarantees that they paid back, yes. An company handed that kind of money back then would do well for a while. They did, until they were bankrupt again and bought by Daimler. They sold it again because it was a loser.

His point is that companies don’t get bailed out, stockholders do. Chrysler stockholders would have lost out back then and the company sold to those who could try to make it work.

Yes he is.

mbecker908 (Diary) Thursday, November 13th at 11:40PM EST (link)

And your juxtaposition of the Iaccoca “bail out” and the sale to Daimler is disingenuous. They were two decades apart.

I made the comment today

kat (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 1:22AM EST (link)

to a co-worker in that vein.

As a 35 year old, I can’t remember when the news about the American auto industry wasn’t bad. If it wasn’t the types of cars they were making, it was the union. Mainly it was the union.

My co-worker is an Obama-voting Democrat who is fiscally conservative (she totally abandoned her principles on that one!) and she came into my office railing about the credit card companies getting bailed out on this. While I have a huge problem with that as well, to me the auto industry deal is bigger.

If we are going to be capitalists, then we have to accept that certain businesses will fail. Businesses that can’t sustain themselves NEED to fail.

Say we do bail out the car companies. How is that going to help them? Bailing them out will not sell their cars. People are not going to flock to the “Big 3″ after a bailout, just because. In fact, I think it will turn even more buyers against them.

Personally, I never bought anything other than a GM for quite a few years. Eventually, after having serious brake trouble in GM vehicle after GM vehicle (and transmission trouble with a Chrysler) I gave up and bought a Honda SUV. When I wanted something new, I went back to Honda. The quality was exceptional, the price was right and I have no complaints. I won’t go back. I know many others who have done the same. Bad products, mismanagement – bad company that needs to be put out of its misery.

“Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” Thomas Jefferson

It takes a while

SeriousLaff (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 1:24AM EST (link)

to piss away a billion. Especially back then. Iaccoca got the loan and the company stuck around awhile longer. It set a bad precident and never should have happened. The stockholers would have lost and Chrysler would have survived in one form or another and probably still would have been in the same state it is now.

The difference is that now taxpayers will be on the hook for every company with their hands out.

 
 
 
 
 
 

This bailout has just snowballed, it's like feeding one stray cat and then more show up that need food too. nt

mom2oneson (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 1:37AM EST (link)

Not true.

mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 1:56PM EST (link)
  1. It did not “set a precedent”. Nobody involved in this bail out is referring to Chrysler’s loan guarantees.
  2. It would be a precedent if GM, etal were looking for loan guarantees, they’re not. They’re looking for a hand out.
  3. GM etal have not offered any plan, other than what they’ve been doing. Chrysler had a detailed plan and concessions from the UAW.
  4. It didn’t take long to spend a billion “back then”. And Iaccoca stayed on at Chrysler and ran the company successfully for many years after the loan guarantee.
  5. Chrysler’s current problem is not in any way connected with the loan guarantees or Iaccoca’s management.
  6. If you want a “precedent”, look no further back than 60 days to TARP. THAT’s the albatross we’re going to have to deal with forever.

 
 

here we go with the auto bailout.

mom2oneson (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 5:17PM EST (link)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081114/apongoco/autobailout

I was so excited yesterday too that he spoke against big gov!

This loan was already approved

izoneguy (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 5:29PM EST (link)

The White House on Friday threw its support behind a plan to speed release of $25 billion in existing loans to the Big Three automakers but rejected a Democratic proposal to use money from a financial bailout to help the troubled industry.


Of course the Big 3 will have hat in hand on Jan. 21st.
Let’s see how much they can get from unbridled President & Congress.

I bet they will get $99 Billion…

Money that will thrown down a rat hole, never to be seen again.

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

Petition Congress - No Bailout

Holly2 Friday, November 14th at 5:36PM EST (link)

Petition Congress:

http://www.rallycongress.com/no-bailout-for-the-auto-industry/1409/

NO BAILOUT FOR THE AUTO INDUSTRY

Nancy Pelosi, with the help of Barney Frank, wants to bail out yet another failed sector of the economy. It is not government’s role to reward incompetent, overpaid executives pursuing a failed and anachronistic business model. The American auto industry is in trouble because it produces a shoddy, polluting, gas guzzling product at noncompetitive prices driven by trade union benefit packages. It is a waste of taxpayer money to try to shore up an industry that needs to be radically restructured. The Big Three should be allowed to fail and file for reorganization under Title 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. They will not cease to exist, but will be restructured under the supervision of the bankruptcy courts. Congress cannot do a better job than the courts. The courts will supervise the reorganization of the industry without being tempted to reward lobbyists, campaign contributors and unions for their political and financial support.

Congress must allow the economy, existing laws and judicial bodies to resolve the Big Three’s financial problems and not throw more taxpayer money away under a hasty and ill conceived bailout

 
 
 

Izone-

mom2oneson (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 5:51PM EST (link)

So are this large loans something they routinely get? Why would they get a loan from the gov and not a bank? I saw that it wasn’t part of the recent bailout but isn’t it still a bailout?
Last question, why would the gov loan money to a failing business?

More info on Govt. Auto Loan

izoneguy (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 6:04PM EST (link)

Here is some more info:

A $25 Billion Lifeline for GM, Ford, and Chrysler

Lifeline for Automakers Dangles Just Out of Reach

Originally the loan was not set to roll out this fast.
The bad economy and the credit crunch has contributed to car sales taking a nose dive. But loaning the auto companies money will only prolonge the agony that will eventually come.

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

They are trying to get it from the government

mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, November 14th at 6:15PM EST (link)

because no private lender on earth will put up the cash. On any terms. They think they can get the cash from Uncle on not just favorable terms, but favorable terms without changing their behavior. This is the family equivalent of taking out a second mortgage on your house and giving the cash to your son the meth addict so he can go to school and get his life together. “Honest mom, I’ll pay you back!”

And, BTW, since you’re account has apparently been turned back on, you owe Moe a pubic apology for ignoring him. It would be good to do that NOW. And don’t forget the Life Lesson about lions and dull sticks.