Reclaiming the Abortion Debate- Part 2


In part 1, I proposed that the GOP could reclaim the debate over abortion by (1) de-emphasizing overturning Roe v. Wade, (2) recognizing privacy rights, but noting they are not absolute, (3) using “choice” against pro-choice arguments, (4) emphasis on the purported goals and importance of responsibility and (5) using science to determine when life begins.  There are other aspects that lend themselves to a winning strategy for the GOP in this area:

6. Stem Cell Research:  The controversy over stem cell research needs to be extinguished.  Using 2005 numbers provided by the CDC, that year there were 820,000 abortions performed in the U.S.  Even the most rational pro-life advocates would allow for abortion in the case of rape, incest, and maternal or fetal health concerns.  According to the CDC statistics, these account for 7.2% of the reasons for obtaining an abortion.  At that rate, it represents over 59,000 “acceptable” abortions.  That is over 59,000 potential sources of new stem cell lines a year.  Does it matter whether they end up in a research laboratory or in a medical waste container?  Through informed consent and release, surely the problem of “new lines of stem cells” could be addressed to the satisfaction of the scientific community.  Secondly, is the Federal or any state government in a financial position to actually fund stem cell research?  Experts claim this is the most promising area of medical research and could be the answer to the sufferers of about 70 medical conditions.  If so, then it would clearly be to the benefit of genetic engineering, biotech and pharmaceutical concerns to engage in the research, not the government.  Although the government has the mandate to foster the sciences, they have that mandate through patent laws.  There is no mandate to fund scientific research.  And while they can formulate guidelines for the research under the Commerce Clause, actual funding is not necessary.  That should be left to the private interests who stand to benefit financially.

7. Stress the cost of abortion:  Although somewhat difficult to gauge, there are studies that estimate that since Roe vs. Wade, the US economy has suffered a $7.0 trillion loss in GDP through potential lost tax revenue and productivity.  An aborted fetus cannot grow up to work and pay taxes.  Conversely, liberals will contend that the aborted fetus was saved a life of poverty or an abusive household or any other horror they can conceivably conjure up. No doubt, there would be such cases, but on balance there is most likely a net loss to the American economy.  Additionally, the liberal view is somewhat short-sighted in that it assumes people cannot overcome poverty or abusive households.  They argue that abortion on demand is economically good because it lessens the potential additional burden on social services.  Regardless, the CDC statistics indicate that 21.3% of abortions are performed for financial reasons- the mother could not afford having a child.  Even if we assume all 21.3% of those fetuses will not overcome poverty (and “financial reasons” does not even necessarily equal “poverty”) and become a drain on social services, that would still represent a $5.5 trillion hit to the American economy.  That might be enough to bail out another bank or car company in Obamaland.

8. Disentangle contraception from abortion:  Some pro-life advocates want to go further and condemn contraception and view it as akin to one of the purported reasons for abortion regulations in the first place- that it is encourages premarital promiscuity and sex.  Others argue that it prohibits a potential human life.  Potentialities and actualities are two different things.  An egg sitting in an ovary or a sperm sitting in a testes is not human life.  It only achieves that status when they successfully combine.  If a bank robbery is foiled before the robbers get in the bank, you cannot charge them with bank robbery.  That being said, government dictates to local schools regarding the content of sex education curriculum- on either side- makes no sense whether done through mandate or by using the power of the purse.  If the federal government is to fund public education at all, it is with the ostensible purpose of raising educational standards.  How does mandating what is taught in health class improve math performance?  All it does is create a vehicle to force a liberal or a conservative viewpoint on a locality.  If New York wants to distribute condoms, that should be their choice after thoughtful, deliberative debate.  If Florida wants to teach abstinence-only sex education, that should be their choice.  If Oregon wants to teach some hybrid approach, then that should be their choice.  Tying federal educational aid to the content of sex education courses makes little intuitive sense.  A moratorium on this practice is what is needed.  Return curriculum content to its rightful place- the states and localities.

9. Take advantage of the ethnic disparities:  One of the unfortunate aspects of the entire debate is the rate of abortions among ethnic minorities.  According to the CDC, the rate among blacks is 49 per 1,000 while that of Hispanics is 33 per 1,000 compared to 13 per 1,000 among white, non-Hispanic women.  This should be seen as an opportunity by the Republicans to reach out to these groups in order to engage community leaders to help reduce these rates, thus reducing the overall rate of abortion in America.  Quite frankly, the GOP suffers among black and Hispanic voters and community outreach in this area would show empathy with these groups while moving towards the overall goal of reducing abortions.  Naturally, this will not create a shift in party preference necessarily in the short term, but the foundations for long term improvement would be laid.  Certainly black and Hispanic community leaders see these rates of abortion- particularly repeat abortions- as a plague in their communities that needs to be addressed.  Whether the problem is of a larger societal nature or that these communities simply lack the resources for contraceptive education, it would not hurt the GOP to reach out.  Initiate an empathetic dialogue.  Perhaps, in these cases, an end-justifies-the means attitude or policy is required first before a sea change adjustment in attitudes and social mores occurs with respect to reproductive responsibility.  These facts create a unique opportunity for the GOP to mend the perceived wounds within these communities.  You are not going to win the black vote or even put a dent in it with a black Presidential candidate, but you start to lay a foundation for the future.

10. Look at the numbers:  A recent Gallup poll in 2009 showed that for the first time in recent history, a majority of respondents were “pro-life.”  The liberal response was to attack the methodology of the poll, not the results.  Regardless, several polls taken by a variety of sources have shown that public opinion wavers ever slightly.  For example, a CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP poll showed that from 1996 to 2003, when asked about the availability of abortion by trimester, the relative responses for each category changed within a very narrow range in a 7-year period.  Not surprisingly, a 2003 CBS/New York Times poll found respondents in the west and northeast were more liberal in their attitudes towards abortion on demand despite the reason or the stage of development while a 2007 CBS poll found that only 36% of Americans in general agreed with abortion on demand despite the reason and stage of development.  Taken as a whole, this abortion on demand attitude is generally the minority.  The majority of Americans are accepting of abortion with greater restrictions than currently exist.  If the result of these restrictions is to reduce the abortion rate, a stated goal of the GOP, then the Republican Party sides with the majority of Americans.  I would like to see a poll of how the parties are perceived on abortion by Democrats, Republicans and independents and to use those results to educate the misinformed.  The GOP should be framing their position.  The Democratic Party should not be framing the position for them.

11. Criticize Obama by name for his hypocrisy:  Either Barack Obama had a moral epiphany between his campaign and time as a legislator and his speech at Notre Dame, or he is just plain pandering to his audience yet again in eloquent words on a teleprompter which tingle the legs of Chris Matthews and have Keith Olberman in tears.  Given his history, it is almost certainly the latter.  This is a man who received 100% ratings from NARAL in 2005 through 2008 for his pro-choice views and legislative record.  He erroneously stated or lied that abortions under Bush increased when they actually decreased.  In 1997 in the Illinois Senate, he voted against SB 230 which would have prevented partial birth abortion.  He did so, he claims, on constitutional grounds even though a Federal identically-worded law survived constitutional review.  He additionally, on two occasions, blocked similar legislation in committee not even allowing a full Illinois Senate vote on the bills.  On 3/30/01, he was the only State Senator to rise and argue against a bill designed to protect born-alive abortions and again nuanced his stance later raising constitutional arguments.  Five times at the request of Planned Parenthood, he voted “present” in the Illinois Senate to avoid taking a clear-cut position on abortion regulations which allowed him an “out” in his upcoming run for President.  In 2000, he voted against a bill that would have banned state funding for late-term abortion (with exceptions for medical reasons) yet in 2008, his campaign literature (another moral epiphany?) stated that states have the right to restrict late-term abortions.  That same campaign literature touts his consistent pro-choice at any costs stances.  In 2006, he voted against a law designed to prevent minors from obtaining abortions across state lines circumventing parental notification laws which survived constitutional scrutiny and  again he voted against similar legislation in 2008.  Finally, in 2008, he voted against SCHIP coverage for unborn children.  Taken as a whole, Obama’s clear policy is that he is for protecting children as long as those children are outside the womb.  Even then, he considers there may be cases where they are not deserving of State protection.  Obama is equal master of oratory and equal master of hypocritical action.  Barack Obama needs to be taken to task by name for this hypocrisy.  We know he is in the pocket of NARAL, NOW and Planned Parenthood; we need to stress that they also possess his mind.

By concentrating on the goal of reducing abortion in America and removing the underlying rhetoric and appealing to logical solutions which stress personal responsibility, Obama and his minions could be taken to task.  If he really meant what he said at Notre Dame, then his feet have to be held to the fire.  This could be achieved absent constitutional amendments and the like and done at the State level. There is talk of a Federal law which would essentially circumvent and over-rule state abortion statutes to the delight of pro-choice constituencies.  Where Obama stands on this blatant Federal power grab will be interesting to see.  The onus of responsibility is on him and the Democrats as they have control of the White House and Congress and the bully pulpit.  My guess is that money will do the talking and that money will come from NARAL, NOW and Planned Parenthood.  Greater than 800,000 human lives depend on his decisions annually.  If he fails in his task, then he sacrifices 800,000 to medical waste bins making him worthy of the political waste bin.


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You are kinda missing the point here.

jeffreywturner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 11:29AM EST (link)

We should be principled in our opposition.

First, the whole point of overturning Roe is not to outlaw abortion. It is to restore the Constitution and say emphatically that it is not OK for judges to simply “make up” things and pretend that they are in the Constitution when they are not. This extends to the whole idea of privacy as well. I happen to think that privacy is great and I like privacy laws, but like many other things I support, it is not in the Constitution and we need to make that clear. If they want privacy to be in the Constitution, then we have a process to put it there, it is called an amendment.

The reason this is so important, is that we can’t even have the debate on any of these matters until we repair the damage to our Constitution by overturning Roe and the other asinine decisions like it. You may think abortion is great and everyone should have two of them, but that isn’t the point here.

Once Roe is overturned, then we can have the debate. I suspect at that point that places like Rhode Island will likely maintain unfettered abortion access whereas places like Utah will likely restrict it. The point is, that the people will actually have the chance to speak on the issue rather than have that right usurped by an imperialistic Supreme Court.

Nonetheless, it is encouraging, as you point out, to see that American’s views are shifting towards life.

“Life is too short, can’t we all just eat pork and kill some terrorists?”

 

Why would anyone support action to reduce abortion

philojunius (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 11:46AM EST (link)

Without the rhetoric showing that it is socially destructive? If it is only immoral it’s not the business of the law to interfere–it’s the cognizable harm to others which gives the law jurisdiction.

 

Number 6 Is Just Plain Wrong

redstatebluestate123 (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 12:05PM EST (link)

“Even the most rational pro-life advocates would allow for abortion in the case of rape, incest, and maternal or fetal health concerns.”

I know several “rational” pro-life advocates who believe that from the moment of conception, there is a human being. Therefore, there is no difference between aborting a 5-week old fetus that was the result of a rape and killing a 5 year old child that was the result of a rape. To them, both are equally reprehensible and should be equally illegal, which is to say, completely. And this is a perfectly logical and rational position to take if you believe that life begins at conception.

Furthermore, I would argue that the ONLY rational position to take if you believe that life begins at conception is the position that abortion is only allowable when the life of the mother would otherwise be threatened.

So its ok to make a rape victim suffer?

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 1:53PM EST (link)

So not only does a rape victim have to suffer the rape, and then the trial etc along with the public humiliation (not that she should feel humiliated), but she also has to be reminded of the rape every second of every day for 9 months (For the rest of the child’s life if the kid is not put up for adoption)?.

Forcing the rape victim to keep the child seems about as sane as forcing the victim to marry the rapist because they had a baby together.

on top of that...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:01PM EST (link)

Do we let the rapist have any parental rights? I mean after all its his kid. If/When he gets out of jail does he get visitation rights? every other weekend?

So when pregnant rape victims commit suicide because you don’t want them to have abortions… do you see this as a more optimal outcome for society? because that is what will happen. Rape victims are already in a very fragile state… forcing them to relive it every day for 9 months seems….. well… evil.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "OK"

redstatebluestate123 (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:03PM EST (link)

The pro-life argument there is to turn around and ask “Is it okay to commit murder if the victim was the result of a rape?”

Again, if you believe that FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION a fetus is a human being with all of the rights that that entails, then aborting a fetus because it was the result of a rape is no different than killing a 2 year old child because it was the result of a rape.

its bigger than that i think

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:06PM EST (link)

A rape victim is barely capable of taking care of themselves in the months after a rape. Being forced to deal with an unwanted child is a time-bomb waiting to happen.

Like I said in the followup post… do you think its more optimal to lose both the mother and the child? because I guarantee you suicides among rape victims will go WAAAAAY up.

I will not allow you to lead me on a tangent

redstatebluestate123 (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:12PM EST (link)

The constitution protects each person’s right to life, liberty, and property. In other words, if a fetus is a person, than it is constitutionally protected and killing it is equivalent to murder. There is no middle ground here.

its no tangent

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:15PM EST (link)

When the lives of both a mother and child are threatened say due to surgery etc doctors will sometimes have to make the hard choice and save one by letting the other die.

The same applies here. By making it against the law you insure in certain circumstances that both will die. You can stick your fingers in your ears and yell all you want, but forcing women to carry a rape child to term is just going to cause even more death and suffering.

 

also...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:22PM EST (link)

Just so you know…

17% of all women in the U.S. are victims of sexual assault…

and…

About 33% of rape victims have suicidal thought.

About 13% of rape victims will attempt suicide.

http://www.suicide.org/rape-victims-prone-to-suicide.html

we don’t need to make those numbers worse.

Post-abortion suicide ideation/attempts

Uma Richie (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:27PM EST (link)

You’re right, we don’t need to make those numbers worse.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/abortion_and_suicide.asp

belive what you want..

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:37PM EST (link)

You can continue to delude yourself all you want and believe those statistics apply to rape/incest. There is probably no way I can change your mind. I will say this though I hope you never have to make the decision yourself if your children/wife are raped.

Shana Brown, 32, is no longer able to have children but wanted to have a baby with her current boyfriend, Duane Calloway, said Uniontown Police Det. Donald Gmitter. The pair decided to drug the girl so Calloway, 40, could have sex with her without her knowledge, he added.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=1163007

I wonder if you could bring yourself to tell this child that she had to have the baby. I wonder how you would explain to her that her mothers desires are more important than her well being. I guess the right for the rapist to have a kid is the all important deciding factor.

Or better yet what should happen if a father rapes his child in an attempt to father a child?

You lose

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:23PM EST (link)

The fact that you completely change the subject, once facts were brought out that demolish your argument that abortion saves lives by reducing suicides, proves that you have no logical response whatsoever.

You respond with pure emotion, having lost the argument. But, being that this is Red State, we all can see through your game.

You lose. Your point has no merit, your case fell apart. Your point of view is wrong.

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wrong

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:34PM EST (link)

That report is referring to abortions in general… not abortions due to rape. Read it next time. It has no application to this conversation… unless you believe that all pregnancies are as violent as rape.

Then disprove the point

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:40PM EST (link)

Demonstrate for us how the killing of children of rapists is different for the mothers afterward in physical, hormonal, and emotional stress.

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hmmm

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:52PM EST (link)

Unfortunately I was unable to find any statistics either way for rape pregnancies that were/were not aborted and the suicide rates.

So while I am unable to prove you wrong, you are unable to prove yourself right. So I guess we are officially at a stalemate. Unless you want to honestly argue that there is no difference between rape and non rape abortions when it comes to suicide rates.

I would argue though that a pregnancy brought on by your own actions and then having an abortion would lead to much higher levels of guilt and therefore higher chances of suicide than one that was forced on someone. But like I said no real proof.

No actually the facts are on Uma's side

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:58PM EST (link)

You can’t invalidate them. Your personal feelings do not contravert facts.

That’s not how the world works.

And you know it. That’s why you responded to facts with feelings.

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Then I will tell you what I told him

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:04PM EST (link)

Believe what you want… If you want to hold tight to the delusion that a woman is suffering the same trauma from an abortion no matter the circumstances there is obviously no convincing you because you don’t want to be convinced.

At least I was capable of admitting I very well could be wrong as I don’t have proof…. You on the other hand try to use one set of facts to prove another. At least I can admit when I don’t have all the facts.

Your Problem Dave is Attitude

jeffreywturner (Diary) Thursday, May 28th at 3:35AM EST (link)

It is fine if you think life doesn’t begin at conception, or if a mother’s trauma justifies the taking of a life, or whatever you choose to believe.

That does not warrant you to say that someone who thinks that life trumps all other issues does not have a “rational” position.

Please note, that counting the bulk of the Abrahamic faiths, approximately 50% of the Earth’s population are adherents of a faith tradition whose official stance is that very position.

So again, you are entitled to your opinion, which I happen to agree with, but that does not make those who disagree “irrational”.

“Life is too short, can’t we all just eat pork and kill some terrorists?”

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

5 (nt)

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:21PM EST (link)

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Come on, now.

evanm (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:52PM EST (link)

The trauma of rape is bad enough; you don’t need to embellish it. “A rape victim is barely capable of taking care of themselves in the months after a rape”? That’s like an over broad generalization plus hyperbole plus sensationalism… not to mention pronoun antecedent disagreement.

Yes, rape is a terrible thing. But even rape can’t turn a child into a burden.

Even these children deserve to live.

Yeah, I guess we should have shot every German child we saw after WWII

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:55PM EST (link)

After all, Germany traumatized the world, etc. etc. Can’t let that genetic material around, etc. etc.

In America we have a Constitutional right not to be held accountable for our fathers’ crimes. Article III, Section 3, Paragraph 2 expressly bans it for treason, even, so the idea of having it apply to the innocent, unborn children of rapists is unconscionable.

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so...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:59PM EST (link)

So I guess its everyone but the rape victim that has rights huh? The child has the right to life… the rapist has the right to impregnate a woman and force them to carry it to term. The mother… She has the right to take it like a champ!

actually no dave...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:08PM EST (link)

The rapist has a right to a trial and should be sent away for life…the baby has a right to be born, the mother has a right to put the child up for adoption.

The fact is that the baby is innocent and shouldn’t be punished, the mother is innocent as well but has no right to take away the child’s life since the child is not endangering her life.

Life is hard…sometimes you just have to deal with it.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


I'm glad you feel that way...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:12PM EST (link)

I hope you have to explain to a rape victim why “she just has to deal with it”.

dave...I hope you never have to experience it...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:26PM EST (link)

that’s the difference between you and I.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


heh...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:32PM EST (link)

Funny you should say that… Ever thought to sit and think a little bit on why I am so firmly against outlawing abortion in case of rape?

It’s easy for the sheltered to advocate black & white solutions when they have never witnessed the pain and suffering such rules would cause. I guarantee you if you had seen what I have you would not be making such bold statements.

Some people only get the point when they are slapped in the face by reality.

Ah I see

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:41PM EST (link)

Becaue the baby isn’t born, you don’t *see* the pain as the ‘doctor’ shoves something thorugh his skull, so it’s ok with you.

If you don’t see it, it’s not really evil.

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heh

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:50PM EST (link)

Yes its all high and mighty of you to point out the horrors of abortion to me. Yes its a horrible act, but so is rape.

I bet that rape victim got raped just so they could go have an abortion. Because we know anyone who would have an abortion does it because they enjoy killing babies.

Instead of focusing on the victim, which is important, but

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:56PM EST (link)

I’m curious how you would propose decreasing the number of rapes in this country?

not sure

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:59PM EST (link)

But I think you bring up a good point…. I cant prove it, but I would wager rape might become an even more attractive crime to the criminally insane knowing the victim will be forced to keep their kid if he manages to get the victim knocked up.

As if the crime was not already horriffic enough…. another bit of blowback to such a silly rule I presume.

I would suggest spending more time analyzing

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:18PM EST (link)

why this garbage, along with all the other societal ills we have in this country, are happening, and then you might come to the conclusion that the only real solution to this problem is to first have an extremely strong deterrent in place so that the punishment is more severe, and enforced quickly, than the person is willing to pay for the pleasure that they recieve from the act (ahem, a life sentence is not a strong enough deterrent by the way), and two we as individuals have to personally choose to clean out all of the sexually explicit material that we love to surround ourselves with everyday.

You need to understand that it is our society that is breeding these people!

 

No, you Can't prove it

molybdanthan (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 9:55PM EST (link)

But just seeing how your mind works it disconcerting.

I’ve been on a jury that sentenced a rapist to 100 years in prison. We gave him the max sentence allowed by law. It’s because of lib lawyers that he’s probably out now. Did you mention how they enable rapists, and allow women to be raped? What’s it going to be–support of women, or criminals. Fighting for both isn’t working out for you. You guys aren’t very good at multitasking. You’re using hypothetical raped women to allow baby killers to keep their jobs.

Sadly, the murdered baby never even registers in the debate. There are a handful of people who survived being aborted. When asked, they sure don’t support your position that killing the child gives any solace to the mother.

Women who are raped and report it are given a medical procedure designed to prevent pregnancy. That should solve the issue of rape pregnancy. So, by all means, forget that’s a fact. Instead, point out how many women don’t report the crime. Keep tap dancing. Those dead babies probably won’t haunt you.

Anyone under the age of 37 should know that they’re only alive today because their mothers didn’t abort them. But they all could have died, and you would have no one dare speak out against their killers. Ask yourself why?

The rape issue is a emotional choke point designed to keep infanticide going. And it will go on, likely passing the 50 million mark before the people finally wake up, throw aside the lib logic, and stop it.

 
 
 

So abortion is bad... unless somebody really really wants it? (nt)

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:57PM EST (link)

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way to be dramatic...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:00PM EST (link)

Because a rape victim is getting the abortion because “they really really want it”

What's the reason then?

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:03PM EST (link)

Your argument boils down to that the rape victim’s feelings are hurt by this child living, and the mother would really like to kill that child because of what the child’s father did.

If the child were born and a mother did that, by say shaking the child, we’d lock her up.

But because the child’s not born yet, somehow it’s a legitimate activity?

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BTW, I doubt you know me well enough to assume I haven't gone through that experience....nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:53PM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


maybe so...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:06PM EST (link)

If I am wrong I apologize, but I doubt I am.

well you are wrong actually...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:11PM EST (link)

but I doubt you care.

Seems to me you have a tendency in this thread of being unable to separate your emotions from the facts, which is why you are getting so much feedback on your positions.

Rule of Law isn’t just a catch phrase to be implemented when it “feels good”. It goes beyond mere feelings and emotions and relies on fact and combined experience of the generations that came before us.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


your right...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:17PM EST (link)

rule of law is important… hence why abortion in case of rape is currently legal.

Under what law dave??.....

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:24PM EST (link)

could you link the law that states abortion inthe case of rape being legal.

Also just for fun, if a woman raped a man and became pregnant does she still have a right to an abortion?

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Intresting question...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:39PM EST (link)

I guess I honestly don’t care though…. the victim in this case obviously does not have to even acknowledge the child exists if he doesn’t want to. He sure as hell isn’t carrying the baby for 9 months.

In fact I would almost go as far as to say your question in context is actually a bit disrespectful to women and the pain that they would be going through in case of a pregnancy after a rape….. To say a man who is raped is == to a women who is raped and now pregnant, and will suffer the same is…. stupid to say the least.

So you don't believe in equal justice under the law then??

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:44PM EST (link)

and I think it is you who are being disrespectful. The cases of men being raped by women are vastly under-reported because of the shame the male victims feel.

Oh and I love how you try to attack me personally instead of squaring your own arguments with the end result of your own logic.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 

Yes the rape exception is legal

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:28PM EST (link)

…and almost certainly still represents a majority viewpoint.

However, your whole essay is not about “legal” but about what we “should” do about abortion. So” legal” is not the framework.

So if you’re going to defend the rape exception in this forum, you’d need to defend the consequents. and particularly indicate on what basis we can avoid sliding down the slipperly slopes that ensue.

If your defense is pragmatics, then that’s a different planet.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

your right, but...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:35PM EST (link)

I was responding, and agreeing with, Aaron Gardner on his point about the rule of law.

My original argument was more to point out why making it against the law would lead to equally complex, and possibly more horrific consequences.

maybe we should legalize rape then Dave...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:41PM EST (link)

I mean if it were legal there would be no more shame involved and therefore women who are impregnated could carry their children to term without the added stigma of being raped…we could have no rapes and less abortions all at the same time.

Or we could focus the courts on justice rather than fairness…just a thought.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Good utilization of "reductio ad absurdum" -nt-

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:45PM EST (link)

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

thanks....

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:50PM EST (link)

I figured the only way to reach the absurd was to start speaking their language…;^)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


absolutist will keep unfettered abortion legal from here till eternity

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:08PM EST (link)

Its no wonder the right cant seem to make any progress on the abortion front. Make the argument black and white and demand that no woman have an abortion in any circumstances. Good luck EVER getting that passed.

And while everyone continues to complain about all the unfettered abortions you can be proud of the fact that its the fault of people like you that it is still legal.

So mock me, say I am absurd, because I’m not 100% anti-abortion I must be one of those evil liberals, never mind that other than rape and safety of the mother I am 100% in agreement with anti-abortion advocates.

So do you support legalizing rape??

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:12PM EST (link)

Rape is a crime of power, they say. So if we take the power away from rape by making it “safe legal and rare” we can lower the number of rapes right?

Either that or you logic is limited only to abortion and therefore isn’t very good logic.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

Truth is always absolute. The graying of the lines

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:18PM EST (link)

between black and white goes back to the garden of Eden, and it’s always used as an excuss to get what “I” want. There is always a way to make evil look good, and for good to be evil!

5 on that Harold....nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:21PM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


Thanks AG! nt

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:29PM EST (link)
 
 
 

You're confusing the pro-life position with politics

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:34PM EST (link)

We’re discussing policy – what is a consistent pro-life position. The argument that most of us are making is that the pro-life position does not have a place for exception in case of rape. So to have a consistent position means that I have to defend no exception – otherwise my opponent will drive a truck through the logical hole I leave in my argument if I concede a rape exception.

On the other hand, when it comes to legislation, would I allow a rape exception? At this point in time, yes, because insisting on no exception would be a deal-killer. But this is a political calculation on a greatest benefit calculus, in other words political compromise.

But I still hold no-exception as my position – that doesn’t change with the political tides.

Contraception is where I do hold a more lenient position, largely around the nuance between preventing potential or unknown life versus intentionally terminating a known life. But I don’t really want to go down that tangent.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

I appreate your right to control the overton window...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:42PM EST (link)

So your only wishy washy when it comes to reality? When it comes to what would actually happen in real life, which btw is what I’ve been talking about all this time, you agree with me.

Wow… what a waste of a bizzilion comments…. I should have just kept my mouth shut I didn’t realize we were playing in fantasy land.

dave, if you were wise, you would re-read what civil

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:47PM EST (link)

said, instead of what you thought you heard.

 

Military analogy

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:56PM EST (link)

You hold your lines while you parlay; you don’t abandon your fortifications voluntarily and retreat, allow the enemy to now hold that strong-point. That rather weakens (or may even destroy) your side.

Or another way: you don’t negotiate with yourself before you negotiate with the enemy.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

 
 
 

Our laws point the next generation in a specific moral direction, so

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:43PM EST (link)

if our laws advocate that the women’s right to personal choice supersede her responsibility of carrying the life of her unborn child, what moral direction will the next generation to follow, more responsibility or more irresponsibility?

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

yea...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:57PM EST (link)

13% of rape victims attempt to kill themselves because its a walk in the park. never mind the 33% that just think about killing themselves.

Not sure this helps your point

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:58PM EST (link)

Is somebody grieving that badly going to be in a position to determine rationally if a child should live or die?

This is what adoption is for.

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

This whole coversation is irrational

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:12PM EST (link)

Man rapes women and gets her pregnant….

If we are lucky the man is caught, and convicted for his crime (this is one of the hardest crimes to prosecute in the first place).

Woman is forced to carry child to term…

Assuming she would have aborted the baby (majority of cases involving rape do) what would be her options in an alternative world…

1) Carry it to term and either keep it or put it up for adoption or
2) Kill herself and her baby

if 15% of rape victims commit suicide already, I would say its safe to assume an even higher percentage of pregnant rape victims commit suicide, but even more importantly I would say if abortion was against the law that EVEN MORE women would commit suicide.

Abortion may be the logical solution, but everyone does not have the willpower to bring a baby brought on by a violent act to term just because “its the right thing to do”

correction...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:14PM EST (link)

I meant adoption in the first word last paragraph not abortion… no edit function :(

 

No doubt everyone has lapses in willpower in weak moments

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:20PM EST (link)

That might *explain* why the abortions are committed, but that does not *excuse* them. And it certainly does not *justify* them.

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

 

Sorry, but that just can not be right.

jeffreywturner (Diary) Thursday, May 28th at 3:54AM EST (link)

There is just no way 15% of ALL rape victims commit suicide unless you are using an extremely narrow definition of rape. If you are counting every single woman who has ever been taken advantage of for sex in any way when she did not consent or was not in a mental state (ie: too drunk, or too young) to consent, which is the legal definition of rape, that happens so often that if 15% of ALL of those women killed themselves, we would have significantly more men than women in the country.

To get that 15% number, you must only be counting cases where someone actually kicks in a woman’s door in the middle of the night and forcibly rapes her, which is much much less frequent. If you only took those instances, and not every single instance of “date rape”, “statutory rape, etc. then perhaps, perhaps you could arrive at your 15% number. But you really should specify because that is a frightening statistic.

“Life is too short, can’t we all just eat pork and kill some terrorists?”

Do we know how many women

molybdanthan (Diary) Thursday, May 28th at 4:45AM EST (link)

who have abortions commit suicide? Gotta be a few. Women who couldn’t be consoled by the Planned Parenthood brochures. We’ll add them to the list of victims since Roe72 who simply died along the way. God rest them.

Here’s a couple of rhyming questions for you:

What would happen to a state that refused to allow abortion? Despite what the lawyers would say. And who would even perform them, if those doctors ran away?

Has anyone gone to prison for not permitting a baby to die? Can’t the Good Samaritan Law apply?

And, do we would know if Liberals be willing to fight to see the killing continue?

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

your position would

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:43PM EST (link)

seem to add “embarrassment of the mother” in addition to life and health as recognized reasons.

The Supreme Court has said executing rapists is unconstitutional and you’re advocating killing the kid instead? Kind of insane, no?

Why would a mother who is “humiliated’ by the child not put it up for adoption?

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

I say kill them both.

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:44PM EST (link)

The rapist because they raped someone (obviously), and the child to keep that genetic material out of the gene pool.

well, you can't

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:50PM EST (link)

kill them both, right now you can only kill the innocent one

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

5!

evanm (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:52PM EST (link)

n/t

 

well damn

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:53PM EST (link)

I guess your right then. Because the rapist cant be killed we should use the full force of law to protect _his _ offspring. I guess all anyone has to do to insure their “legacy” is carried on is go out and rape a few women. I’m sure one of them will stick and you now have your very own offspring.

%^#$^ The victim they asked for it anyways. If they commit suicide that is a sin also so I’m sure she deserved to go to hell.

A clarification: sin does not send one to hell, a lack of

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:39PM EST (link)

faith in our Savior’s sacrifice does!

 

martian logic

streiff (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:40PM EST (link)

punishing children for the actions of their parents is no legal. There’s that whole “bill of attainder” thing in the Constitution, the written part, that is, not the part with penumbras and emanations.

As a fairly studly man, I’ve never been faced with the need to rape in order to have offspring. YMMV

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

 

chiming in and jumping out...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:50PM EST (link)

I guess you do not believe in free will, because if you did you would understand that the unborn child is free to make his own decisions in life and if he choses incorrectly then he too will face justice.

 
 
 

What other genetic material should we ban from being born dave??

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:58PM EST (link)

We obviously don’t want rapists…but what about those who would grow up to be murderers…we should probably nip them in the bud as well.

Oh and also all those mean bankers who sold all those loans…we should definitely not let them taint the gene pool.

And from there I suppose the jump to certain ethnicities should be relatively easy.

Sanger wants her reasoning back.

/snark off

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


your right...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:07PM EST (link)

Your right nobody should be removed just because of their father, and I retract that comment as indefensible.

Everyone here is still missing the point though. You are all advocating punishing the victim for being raped. Some of you might not view it that way, but I guarantee you the victims will likely not see it that way.

well dave your right...I don't see it that way...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:10PM EST (link)

We are advocating that the baby not be made into a victim as well.

You seem to think that killing the baby will provide the mother with some sort of justice….it doesn’t.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


justice... no

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:15PM EST (link)

I don’t see it as a good choice, I see it as a life saving choice for some. I cant believe nobody here can even admit to the fact that being forced to carry a child after a rape might just be to much for some to bear.

And for those you are advocating leaving them absolutely no other option than killing themselves along with the child.

Life saving choice?? By destroying life??

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:30PM EST (link)

If 50 pregnant women think they may commit suicide and all 50 get abortions but only 10 would have really committed suicide how many lives did you save?

You can’t possibly know the answer to this…you are condemning innocent children to death on a wager of what might happen, yet you claim to be on the side of compassion and saving lives??

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


nice...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:35PM EST (link)

If 50 women are denied abortions and 40 of them commit suicide because of it we now have 80 deaths.

You can’t possibly know the answer to this…you are condemning innocent women to death on a wager of what might happen, yet you claim to be on the side of compassion and saving lives??

see i can write a bunch of gibberish also

How nice to hear that you have a final solution to all that (nt)

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:44PM EST (link)

RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

 

You are the one claiming that by killing babies you are protecting life...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 3:46PM EST (link)

and your parallel doesn’t really work because if you had your druthers none of those women would be allowed to give birth.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


heh

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:31PM EST (link)

So I guess you believe that 100% of women forced to carry a rape baby to term will not commit suicide?

Otherwise you are advocating death also.

you can be as sarcastic as you like Dave...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:35PM EST (link)

but you are advocating for the death of babies and I am advocating for the life of babies….you are on the wrong moral side of the issue…sorry.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


ok fine...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:42PM EST (link)

You advocate for the babies life, I’ll advocate for the woman’s life. Everyone needs an advocate.

Everyone here seems more than willing to stand up for the rights of the child and the rapist, but very few want to stand up for the victim.

no one is standing up for the rapists dave...that is a figment of you immagination..nt

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:47PM EST (link)

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


heh....

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:56PM EST (link)

I’m sure the child who was raped by her father will think of it that way when she is forced to keep it.

heh...you're being an idiot right now dave....

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:00PM EST (link)

Regardless of how you feel, no one is saying that the rapist should get off the hook…or any of the other stupid things that you have inferred.

Either stick to what is being said or come out and call us supporters of rape and sully your reputation here permanently.

Your choice.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 
 
 

Of course we're standing up for the victim

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:50PM EST (link)

There’s support and counseling and adoption choices (and hopefully medical coverage during the prenatal and birth process).

Once the rape has occurred, there are going to be negative consequences for the victim. We can help mitigate (as in the previous paragraph), but abortion is not mitigation: it’s aggravating the pain and guilt. Carrying the baby is affirming that good can overcome evil in the end.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

 

There's more than one victim in this situation, Dave

JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:56PM EST (link)

That’s what you can’t seem to see (sorry for jumping in, but sheesh).

Yes, the woman who was raped is a victim. And she should be given all the support, love, and comfort that society, the law, and her family and friends can provide. And yes, that includes preventing conception (i.e., “morning after” pills), in my view.

But if conception HAS occurred, now there are two lives that need to be supported.

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps the reason for the suicide rate among women who have been raped is symptomatic of the lack of continuing support for the victim? As a woman, I can totally understand the reaction. But I also know the power of life and of loving support in tragic and fearful times.

Maybe that’s a place to start. Help the victim, and if there is a baby, help BOTH victims of the crime.

And punish the criminal, not the innocent — especially the most innocent among us.

“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson

looks like you get abused just like me...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:13PM EST (link)

I advocate that abortion should be legal in cases of rape, you say the morning after pill should be available… either way we don’t subscribe 100% to anti-abortion dogma so we get harassed (see down the page)….

I agree with you 100% on the helping the victims… maybe if they receive enough help and support they will not seek the abortion. Still does not mean I want to take the option away though.

dave why is it that when people disagree with you you think it is harrasment??.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:17PM EST (link)

we just disagree and are having a discussion…if you don’t want to continue don’t reply.

Quit acting like a victim when all you are is one voice in a debate…just like everyone else.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

I'm basing my timing on biology

JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 7:11PM EST (link)

I majored in biology, worked in a hospital (including in a hospital morgue, weighing the “products of conception” as dead fetuses were euphamistically called), and saw abortion used as both birth control and in truly tragic circumstances.

Until the blastocyst implants into the uterine wall, it is not viable. The blastocyst contains cells that will become both embryo and placenta. It literally has to “hatch out of its shell”, i.e, the zona pellucida, in order to implant into the uterine wall and continue its development. Only about one in three fertilized eggs get to this stage; the rest are simply shed from a woman’s body without her every knowing about it, probably because the blastocyst wasn’t viable for some genetic reason or another.

Dave, what I think you are saying is that although you, yourself, do not support abortion, you do not want to be in the role of forcing anyone else to go through a pregnancy. You are attempting to be kind and compassionate towards the mother.

And I have to admit that when I, as a woman, hear or read a man say “just deal with it,” I bristle a bit — because I can’t help but think, “Buster, you have no idea what she is dealing with!”

I really have seem all sides of this situation. And from my advancing age, apparent with every look in my mirror, having lived through the pregnancy scares, the childbearing years, the sexual violence, seeing female friends and family abandoned to raise children alone, and now having attained what I like to call “post-child-bearing-years maturity”, all I can say is that in many of these situations, there is no solution that is easy and clear. There’s often no way out except straight through.

The right thing to do is rarely the easy thing to do. It is not always convenient. It is often difficult, hard, painful, messy, and unfair.

But until I have the power to grant life, I will not replace the Creator’s judgment with my own in this matter. I will walk the path laid in front of me, knowing it’s the best one, no matter how difficult it is.

And yes, sadly in this world, that requires me to oppose others when they wish to take an innocent life. I know that I’m asking, nay requiring that mother to walk a hard path. But I also believe at my very core that it is the only path. I think if you really think it through, you will agree.

“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson

 
 
 
 
 

False equivalence

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:40PM EST (link)

Allowing abortion is direct acquiescence to an agency of death.

That is far different than enabling a situation where an independed actor may choose to commit suicide. My culpability is far less (if any) than condemning someone to death by not allowing them to defend themself, thereby depriving them of choice.

And how far back in the chain of causality do you want to go? The logical consequences of your statement will turn us into living under a control freak government.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

why not...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:48PM EST (link)

In just this circumstance leave it up to the _choice_ of the woman? You can advocate they keep the child, but let them make the choice.

I’m glad you can live with yourself with the “I’m not responsible, she didn’t _have_ to commit suicide”. People here say life is sacred, but the more and more I listen the more and more I feel that only applies to the unborn. Nobody cares about the lives of the born.

Hold on, I was only objecting to your attempt to assign culpability

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:00PM EST (link)

I do not accept culpability for another’s choice when they do have alaternatives. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t grieve, but that’s different than accepting blame.

The question of leaving the choice to the woman – that’s the main argument that’s being discussed elsewhere. I just wanted here to eliminate your effort to stack the deck.

And fact that I have seen anti-abortion parties take the stand to follow-up past birth to continue provide support for mother and child – that’s putting money where the mouth is – and seeing that is what swung me to the pro-life side.

So your last line in a canard – go out and see what the crisis pregnancy centers actually do for the living rather than libel them.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

 
 
 

I'm curious as to why being forced to carry a baby is

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:44PM EST (link)

viewed as such a bad thing in our society?

Second, why should our society even have to force someone to carry a baby (the most precious asset of our society), and what’s so bad about having a baby that you decide to kill yourself?

Tell me dave, do you know, enquiring minds want to know?

i agree with you, sorta....

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 4:53PM EST (link)

I am pro-life 99% of the time. I don’t think abortion should be legal just because you cant keep your pants zipped up. But I think when it comes to the safety of the mother (and this includes rape) they should have the right to abort the baby.

I mean think about it… to make such abortions against the law you are in reality bringing the “Full force of law and government” down on the victim of a crime and forcing them to keep it. Whats next are we going to force a mother who is going to die otherwise to keep it? What about even if there is zero chance of the babies survival?

This whole concept of personal choice without personal responsibility is wrecking havac in our country.

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:09PM EST (link)

Personal choice must always be tied to personal responsibility. If you fail to meet your personal responsibility then you forfeit your right to personal choice.

So in the case of rape what is the responsible thing to do, have the baby or kill the baby?

the real question though is...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:09PM EST (link)

I agree, but I will go one further its no longer personal responsibility if its the law. If abortions are against the law you are no longer doing the moral thing by not getting one, but just the legal thing.

Do you have children? If so you should understand

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:36PM EST (link)

that laws are like fences, they provide safe bounderies to play in. They can not make you do what’s right, they can only tell you the right thing do. You’re advocating leaving gaps in the fence which will only weeken the future of our country in regards to this most import issue. This is reality!

So I will ask again, in the case of rape what is the responsible thing to do, have the baby or kill the baby?

Honestly, in this case I dont know.

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 7:36PM EST (link)

I know one thing, I don’t envy the victim that has to make the choice though. If I were forced to make a decision though I would say the responsible thing would be to do what is best for the mother, and in certain circumstances that may indeed be getting an abortion. Yes I know that is a pretty messy answer, but its the best I can give.

I feel that all abortions should be discouraged, any pregnant woman should feel they have as much support as they would need pre and post birth. This should include, but not necessarily limited to doctor visits, psychiatric care, etc. I believe this would actually do more to lower abortions than any law ever could anyways.

This one thing is true, good will always overcome evil.

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Thursday, May 28th at 7:44AM EST (link)

To your answer to my question “Honestly, in this case I dont know”, I would ask why are then advocating so strongly one point of view?

To your “what’s best for the mother” I would ask what’s best for the child?

To your “certain circumstances”, I can not think of a single instance where the responsible thing to do is to kill the baby, could you please provide one?

In the case of the life of the mother being at risk, the question isn’t about abortion anyway, and the answer to that case is to sever the child from the mother, and let medical and natural means chart the coarse of each life.

This issue is not about “choice” as you have been advocating, it’s about the personal responsibility of both our country and the victim, and the deliberate killing of an innocent life because “I” don’t want it (you can gloss over all the reasons for justifing abortion, but they all come down to what I just stated).

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

also

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 2:47PM EST (link)

I didn’t mean to imply that the mother would be humiliated by the child per se. I was more referring to having to relive the incident in a court room in front of everyone.

Humiliated by knowing everyone knows…
by “letting it happen to her”
and yes maybe even of the child itself, but that was not my original intent.

 
 
 

5 to the 5th power

JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:01PM EST (link)

with one caveat: the “life of the mother” is largely a red herring. There are so few either-or situations today that it’s just not a concern.

“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson

 
 

I think current contraceptive drugs belie point 8

Slightly_Askew (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:03PM EST (link)

Birth control pills work in three ways. First, by restricting ovulation. Second, increases mucus buildup which blocks sperm from reaching the egg if ovulation does occur. Finally, and here’s the tricky one, affecting the uterine wall so that a fertilized egg is unable to remain in place.

If you argue that life begins at conception, how do you reconcile the conclusion that The Pill = The Morning After Pill = Abortion.

 

Once upon a statutory rape (a true story for dave_atl)

Uma Richie (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:48PM EST (link)

(new thread seemed better than a reply to at this point)

When I was 14, a close female relative feared her job was in jeopardy. She was an OB/GYN nurse in a hospital that was allowing an abortion procedure for the first time in her employment. All the OB/GYN nurses stood firm in their refusal to take part in the abortion, so it was unclear whether the hospital would be able to perform this “service.”

The next day my relative reported that the abortion had taken place because a nurse from a different department agreed to assist. Her job was safe, but she was still upset about the episode. The hospital allowed the abortion in this instance because it involved statutory rape. Since it took place in a small town in the days before HIPAA, of course I heard the name of the girl. She was an acquaintance of mine, a year older than me. I’ll call her Amy. Amy’s parents did not wish to prosecute the perpetrator.

Fast forward a few months, a friend and I went for a walk on a summer’s night. We encountered a local police officer known to us through his very kind wife and their two adorable toddlers. We exchanged pleasantries and on the way home my friend remarked that he was the greatest cop in town. Upon returning home for the evening, I relayed my friend’s enthusiasm to my family. The female relative nurse happened to be there and responded that “If he was so great, he wouldn’t have gotten Amy pregnant.”

So in this case, abortion:
- took the life of a an unborn baby,
-prevented a 15 year old girl from seeing justice done to her rapist,
-and allowed a sexual predator to patrol the streets as a law enforcement official.

Sorry, the rape exception just doesn’t work.

So they helped him destroy the "evidence"

Jack_Savage (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:51PM EST (link)

But dave-atl thinks we are living in fantasy land.

Thanks Uma.

 

statutory rape != rape

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 5:59PM EST (link)

or at least statutory rape is generally not a violent crime. By definition it is a consensual act. The only crime is one of the parties is under age.

Let me know when you have a story that applies to my argument.

Let us know when you have any facts at all

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:02PM EST (link)

Let us know when you have any facts at all.

Anecdote is not the singular of data.

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Casuistry - the last resort of scoundrels

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:04PM EST (link)

Not to mention you’re making all sorts of conjectures to avoid dealing with the point of the story.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

why?

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:10PM EST (link)

I argue that its the violent nature of rape that makes allowing abortions “acceptable”. This argument obviously does not apply to statutory rape.

You stepped in it again even more deeply

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:21PM EST (link)

Rape is about lack of consent, not about violence.

Statuatory rape by definition arises because the one of the involved is considered by age to be incapable of giving valid consent. Your assertion above to the contrary is legally indefensible.

Either a regular rape or statutory rape may or may not involve what you would consider to be violence.

If you’re arguing that abortion is only acceptible in the case of violent rape, then you are creating a new subcategory not contained in any current law – and you’d better be prepared to say how much violence is the dividing line between acceptible and unacceptible violence.

I really don’t think you want to go there.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

see my post below.

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:29PM EST (link)

most of what you replied to does not matter. i misread the comment i was replying to.

 
 

never mind

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:27PM EST (link)

I didn’t notice that the cop was the one committing the crime here the first time reading it. That definitely makes it a violent crime, but I am still trying to figure out why it was “statutory rape” I was under the assumption that when the rapist is in a position of power over the victim there could really be no “concentual”

This seems to be more a problem with police corruption, and a belief that cops are above the law though.

And yes I feel the 15 yr old should be allowed an abortion if wanted… and the cop should get the death penalty for rape, abuse of power, and pedophilia.

If her/her parents didn’t want the abortion that is also their choice. I just think they should be the ones to make it. I am not sure how the abortion kept the cop off the street though.

kept the cop on the street that is.

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:28PM EST (link)

heh.

 

Uh huh, the truth comes out

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:31PM EST (link)

‘choice.’

So you’re one of those?

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wow

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:37PM EST (link)

I didn’t realize that a word could be so dangerous around here, its not even the first time i’ve used it. Yes in the case of rape I do believe it should be the woman’s choice…. I think that’s what i’ve been saying since the start.

Yeah. Gotcha. I see where you're coming from now. (nt)

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:38PM EST (link)

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Why do you keep harping on "violent"

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 7:10PM EST (link)

This operative offense in rape is consent – or rather lack thereof.

Please educate yourself about basic defintions of things like statuatory rape before you get up on your Solomonic throne. You’re really confused about that.

There’s nothing in the story to say that the police officer’s sexual assault was violent in the usual sense of the word. In fact, he might have been very gentle with her and not used any force. We don’t know the circumstances – but we do know that there was a lack of consent on her part.

Indeed, many years ago, feminists (rightly) removed violence from the definition of rape. Prior to that, the rapist could argue consent if the woman did not physically resist his assault at an adequate level of resistance. As you can imagine, this led to all sorts of threading the eye of a needle (did she have to punch him, did she yell, how many times did she yell, did she resist long enough, etc.).

So either you want to go back to the bad-old days – or you’re redefining rape definitionally as an act of violence, and in so doing redefining violence away from its accepted meaning.

The abortion enabled the cop to stay ON the street, where he was in a position to assault again.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

not quite what I meant...

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 8:18PM EST (link)

I would say that anything done to you without consent is violent by its very definition.

But especially in cases of rape I would say all rape is violent by its very nature, and I would think the law agrees because its considered a violent crime.

But yes check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime#United_States in that list I think you will find Rape. I redefined nothing.

 
 
 
 
 

A 15 year old lacks the physical and mental capacity to defend themselves against an officer of the law

Slightly_Askew (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:15PM EST (link)

This is absolutely a violent act.

That being said, the fact that the girl’s parents did not wish to prosecute is both cowardly and legally irrelevant. This isn’t trespassing or petty theft. The victim has no say in the decision of whether or not to prosecute this type of crime. There should have been an investigation as soon as the 15 year old pregnant girl showed up at the hospital.

 
 

And this same story is being repeated many times today

civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:02PM EST (link)

We keep reading about Planned Parenthood illegally covering up statuatory rapes and other sexual predation crimes, at times abetted by the male’s parents or other authority figures – all to protect “choice”.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

http://www.gmsplace.com/

The right to kill a baby trumps all other considerations

Jack_Savage (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:05PM EST (link)

It is interesting that the groups the left claims to care most about are the ones they most seem to despise.

Yeah, he's clearly one of those (nt)

Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 6:38PM EST (link)

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A follow-up question:

philojunius (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 8:25PM EST (link)

If abortion were only legal in the case of rape or incest, what legal certainty would be required that the pregnancy did indeed result from these causes? The attestation of the mother? A positive rape kit report from trained personnel? A conviction of the accused?

I think a criminal report should be acceptable

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 8:48PM EST (link)

It is against the law to file false charges, and reporting a rape that never happened I would assume would be quite illegal.

I would also assume that an abortion outside of the law would be illegal. Therefore you now have two crimes to charge anyone who attempts to use this method just to get an abortion.

Is this perfect… no, is anything, probably not. Although I guess it all comes down to the legislation… I would assume that is where such details would be decided.

I mean making abortion illegal is not going to stop abortions either its just going to raise the bar for access to abortions, and that’s all we can do.

So: Abortion is Illegal, except...

philojunius (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 9:14PM EST (link)

for anyone who wants one and is willing to lie.

Would it not be necessary to prove a woman was NOT raped in order to charge anyone with violation of the law, then?

What are the odds of that EVER happening?

what makes you think a law outlawing _all_ abortions would be any more effective?

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 9:20PM EST (link)

Anyone who can buy a plane ticket to any other country where abortion is legal can have an abortion even if abortions were against the law in every conceivable circumstance.

You’ve herd the argument even if you don’t realize it… “High taxes move companies overseas.”

Does that mean I think we shouldn’t bother…. no. I think sensible legislation needs to be passed. I just don’t think we should assume that law will save us.

ALL laws are defied and evaded.

philojunius (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 9:26PM EST (link)

Crimes committed overseas can be tried in the U.S. with sufficient evidence. Physicians performing abortions can be declared persona non grata and barred from entry into the U.S.

Murders still happen every day, even in the U.S. Yet no one proposes that this means that laws against murder are futile.

exactly.

dave_in_atl (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 9:53PM EST (link)

So you attack my argument because people would “lie” and therefore break the law.

But defend your argument by saying every law is broken.

no the law is fine...the people are broken...

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 10:23PM EST (link)

at least the people who would try to justify murder are.

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

Your "law" cannot be enforced...

philojunius (Diary) Thursday, May 28th at 12:12AM EST (link)

…except by the most clumsy. One might even suspect that was indeed the point.

Whereas other laws that are broken can be with normal police investigation.

I should say "...except ON the most clumsy..."

philojunius (Diary) Thursday, May 28th at 12:13AM EST (link)

Mea culpa.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Some problems

Menlo (Diary) Wednesday, May 27th at 8:00PM EST (link)

I see no use in debating the merits of a rape exception other than to note there is a significant percentage of pro-life people who oppose it. Some suspect that may be why SD’s ballot initiatives failed by the same margins in 2006 and 2008.

Embryonic stem cells do not rely on abortion but on IVF. I believe federal law here and in most other countries prohibits the use of aborted babies post-implantation for experiments.

Along those lines, a tiny minority of Catholics oppose certain contraceptives because they pose a risk of preventing implantation. However, such logic leads to a risk-posing standard that is unjustified in terms of law enforcement.

The “states’ rights” argument does not work unless you believe all states have the right to legalize homicide of a select minority by rule of the majority. That was the argument used for slavery and segregation, and it is not justifiable. Nor is it in current times workable as a practical matter, but that is beside the point.

On the science, I certainly agree with you. We’ve known when a whole new actual human life began since the 1800′s. The science establishment somehow seems to be silent on ignorance of that in their concern for teaching when all life began billions of years ago and how to protect generations not yet conceived from global warming.

“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter

 

I'm curious is there a record for the most number of comments without a rec'd? nt

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Thursday, May 28th at 7:47AM EST (link)