It is clear after watching this video, there is more driving the left’s opposition to ObamaCare than just that the public option is out. For example, Hamsher said in this interview that Senator Lieberman was acting on behalf of the the White House for drug companies and insurers, after she attacked the bill for raising the costs of heath care. (FireDogLake agrees with Howard Dean: Kill the Senate Bill.)
According to The Hill, Senators Feingold and Sanders have still not said they will vote for the bill. Burris has said he will vote against if the bill does not contain the public option.
From a purely power-politics point of view: the left must have at least one or perhaps two Senators represent their view of killing the bill if they want to be taken seriously in the future. If they roll over and play dead, or can not produce one No vote, they will never be taken seriously again (and will be viewed as a paper tiger) — especially given the fact that there are plenty of serious policy beefs the progressives have with the Senate ObamaCare bill.
The progressives are likely making a shrewd political decision: on one hand this bill is so unpopular that it will hurt the cause of health care reform and their push for a single payer system if it passes, and on the other hand, the bill is so bad that it is better to leave the status quo and use the health system’s existing problems as a pole vault to pass a single payer system. From their point of view, it may take longer, but in the end, it is a much smarter strategic decision.
My guess is that the progressives will post more than one NO vote from within the Democratic Senate caucus, and ObamaCare will die.
Steve Maley
KnightsofMalta
Dan Spencer
Moe Lane
Dan McLaughlin
I admire your optimism, Dan, but...
Jack_Savage (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 8:56AM EST (link)I think leftists will come to the conclusion that their nose is finally under the tent and that they would be complete idiots to torpedo this bill. They will regroup and push for a public option later. It will pass and be reconciled, and the last nail in America’s coffin will be hammered.
We won't have to wait long
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:08AM EST (link)but I think they are being true to their principles in their opposition to this dog of a bill, ObamaCare.
And I truly do believe it is in their political interest to kill the bill.
They are going to pass this.
earlgrey (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:40AM EST (link)I just hope Roland Burris gives them some trouble to delay it enough so that maybe some conservative dems come to their senses. That is our only hope.
How?
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:05AM EST (link)How are they going to pass this bill?
They need 60 votes, and cannot even figure out how to get 60 votes.
Dan, I thought Lieberman was the Dem holding this back...
conservativemusician Wednesday, December 16th at 10:22AM EST (link)Now that they have him on board, doesn’t it make it more likely that this thing passes, even though libs are not getting all that they want out of this? Are there other complicating factors with other Dem senators that we don’t already know about?
Does Senator's Kerry's presence in Copenhagen effect timeline for Sen. healtcare vote?
SoFiMil (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 6:03PM EST (link)…or at least make it impossible to get a senate vote before Christmas? Even without the other defections Reid is facing, it would be impossible to get to 60 without Kerry in the well of the Senate.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
au contraire . . .
ottomustaine Wednesday, December 16th at 9:58AM EST (link)Actually the commies are concluding that w/out the public option or Medicare expansion this bill does *not* put their nose under the tent. Further, they are concluding that the provisions that remain in the bill are harmful to consumers and a big giveaway to health insurers. They likely have very different reasons than we do for thinking the bill is harmful to consumers, but nevertheless that’s what they believe. They would accept all kinds of harm to consumers if they thought they were getting the camel’s nose in the tent. But they have concluded that there is no camel’s nose left in the bill. At this point I think the true believers on left and right could come together to kill the bill. The “coming together” part may be farfetched, but as a practical matter that may be what will happen.
Nice, ottomustaine
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:06AM EST (link)Nice.
I disagree
Jack_Savage (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:18AM EST (link)The goal of the commies is to put insurance companies out of business so the government is the insurer of last resort. Or in other words, break the window so you are called upon to fix it.
This bill will not do that, but it will begin the process. Once something is given by the government, it develops a consituency and can never be taken away. They know that. They will add provisions, which will add consituencies, and the chaos that develops over the next decade in the health care and insurance industries will be “solved” with single payer down the road.
They break things so the government can fix them. They have never been held accountable, and they know they never will be. When it hits the fan, this crowd will be long gone when the ticking time bomb of another entitlement goes off. Anyone remember who voted for or pushed Social Security? Medicaid? Medicare? Exactly.
There is no way – no way – that Democrats will come this far and not pass anything.
Uh, the left has principles (their own)
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:27AM EST (link)and between the White House caving on the public option, and Lieberman forcing their head into the mud, they are really at pissed off beyond measure.
They are not kidding, they want the bill dead.
"there is too much at stake"
earlgrey (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:38AM EST (link)According to Sherrod Brown a lefty senator who indicated he would support the health care measure. The left may be mad, but does that mean the Senators wil listen?
Brown is such a lightweight
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 4:56PM EST (link)Who listens to Brown?
I just think they are impotent
Jack_Savage (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:42AM EST (link)Using the internet, meet-ups and Olbermann to leverage themselves far beyond what their real power is, and most politicians know it.
I don't think that's what's in their pointy little heads
ottomustaine Wednesday, December 16th at 11:11AM EST (link)I agree they tend to break things through government intervention, then call for more government intervention to fix what’s broken. But I really believe they do that out of sheer economic ignorance rather than deliberate policy. They assume, as an ideological matter, that whatever is broken must have been broken by capitalism, and can be fixed by the gov’t. It’s a form of faith, evidence be damned.
But that’s beside the point.
The point is they believe the bill is a boondoggle for insurers because it forces consumers to buy from them. They further believe that in the absence of a public option or Medicare expansion, the “monopolist” insurers will get fat by gouging the consumer. My solution to whatever health insurance monopolies or near-monopolies may exist is interstate competition. Their solution is government “competition.” They really seem to understand that if they don’t get their “solution” much of what’s left in the bill really makes things worse for consumers and better for insurers.
Never underestimate liberals’ hatred of health insurance companies.
I will agree here
Jack_Savage (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:40AM EST (link)We agree that the main focus is the liberal’s hatred of capitalists, in this case insurance companies.
Perhaps I give the commies too much credit – if it were me, I would keep the insurance companies alive with my hand firmly on the plug, waiting for the dust to clear before I declare them no longer useful and yank.
However, I see your point – if their hatred is so blinding, and their stupidity so massive as to not give what seems like an inch to the insurance companies, there are two scenarios:
1) In order to prove their power, they embark on a jihad against the Bought And Paid For wing of their own party, which will result Senators caving, no bill passed and Mutual Assured Destruction for Democrats, or….
2) The Senators ignore the nutjobs, vote for the bill and nutjobs realize how utterly impotent and marginalized they are. Politically this is a far better thing to do if you are a Senator – they are now having to deal with a certain fellow who stared at the nutjobs and kicked their little rear ends in Connecticut, and hasn’t forgotten about it. Let the nutjobs screech – what are they going to do, become Republicans?
I will agree that as the bill stands now someone on the other side takes the shaft BIG time, but I think scenario #2 happens. Delicious either way, though.
Furthermore,
erod (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:06PM EST (link)you can read the comments at these nutty sites like KOs, HuffPo and MSNBC their base is beyond pissed. And now a CT dem is calling for Liebermans recall: http://www.nationalreview.com/onthenews/?q=MTMzM2MyOWJlMmZjODMzNGViMmQxMjg3ZjdlODZjZmE=
Seriously, you should really read the comments on these sites: THEY ARE MAD and some are calling their reps. I don’t doubt their power to organize, look at 08 and 06.
My brain tells me that something may pass, but my gut tells me that massive unpopularity on both sides of the aisle will doom this bill.
Furthermore,
erod (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:06PM EST (link)you can read the comments at these nutty sites like KOs, HuffPo and MSNBC their base is beyond pissed. And now a CT dem is calling for Liebermans recall: http://www.nationalreview.com/onthenews/?q=MTMzM2MyOWJlMmZjODMzNGViMmQxMjg3ZjdlODZjZmE=
Seriously, you should really read the comments on these sites: THEY ARE MAD and some are calling their reps. I don’t doubt their power to organize, look at 08 and 06.
My brain tells me that something may pass, but my gut tells me that massive unpopularity on both sides of the aisle will doom this bill.
Camel's Nose. Tent.
farstar99 (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 1:00PM EST (link)As always, Democrats whine and stamp their feet, but in the end they’re wussies.
They’ll back whatever Obama does, no matter what.
They’re spineless hypocrites, grubbing for power.
ANY power to make them feel less like the unremarkable, unwanted failures that they are.
Passing something means 60 votes
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 4:58PM EST (link)they do not even know what to put in the bill to get to 60 votes, let alone have the language for the 60 votes.
Jane Hamsher is an idiot (yeah you already knew that)
bk (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 8:59AM EST (link)Isn’t she the one who said the Komen Foundation should fire Hadassah Lieberman? Over 500,000 women a year die worldwide from breast cancer, but apparently Hamsher feels that’s less important than having those like Lieberman who help the cause pass a FDL purity test.
Can’t we say Hamsher is killing hundreds of thousands of people a year?
It is this bill, and its abortion provisions
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:09AM EST (link)that would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent babies.
Karl Marx with white hair and a funny face
tankertodd (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:13AM EST (link)Insurance companies make thin profit margins. They’re protecting what little they have. Go to any online finance website and do the math yourself. There are many companies that make way more profit than insurance companies.
Drug importation? How does that contain costs? Drug companies will simply raise the Canadian prices. DUH!!111!!!11!1 Or worse, they stop innovating, which means no frikking cure for cancer, Hamsher! Let’s put Karl Marx in charge of healthcare innovation, Jane! From the guys who brought you the Trabant, breadlines, and gray barracks for housing, here’s your new advanced treatments for cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer’s, etc. Of course only the elites who live on your stupid Fire Pig Lake will get decent healthcare, while the rest of us eat cake.
———————————
The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race – Chief Justice Roberts
Drug importation & insurance companies
countessolenska Wednesday, December 16th at 10:23AM EST (link)I think an official policy of drug importation from Canada or other places seems like an insult to America and is just plain weird. Maybe I don’t understand the whole issue.
I also don’t know why insurance companies should be exempt from anti-trust laws. Ben Nelson favors the continuation of this policy, but I think we should toss it.
If the Democrats were to make the bill more amenable to Republicans, they wouldn’t need all 60 of their caucus. I don’t know if that is possible though.
I believe the race to get it done before Christmas has been relaxed, so we’ll see.
The Dorgan bill got killed
bk (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:30AM EST (link)Democratic Senators from states with large drug company presence were against it. Imagine that.
But it was a double whammy for Drug Importation
Richard Mullins (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:01AM EST (link)Both the Dorgan amendment and the Lautenburg amendment when down in Defeat. The Dorgan amendment die a harder death than the Lautenburg amendment.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
Insurance and Drugs
tankertodd (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 3:59PM EST (link)The drug importation thing is a result of the fact that because other nations have price controls on drugs, that the price Americans pay is disproportionately high. Remember that patent drugs have to recoup the billions invested not only in its development, but cover the costs of all the other efforts that failed. Because the fixed cost of a drug is high and the variable cost (i.e. cost to produce a pill) is tiny, you have this model. We either need to extend the drug patent lives or establish similar price controls with the express purpose of forcing other countries to pony up more. Ultimately, government is the cause of the problem, not the solution.
I didn’t know insurance companies were exempt from anti-trust laws. It might have been a compromise given that they have to live with federal plus 50 states worth of state regulation. I would guess they would give up their exemption in a heartbeat if you could simplify all the cockamamie regulations they live with.
———————————
The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race – Chief Justice Roberts
Jesus, Todd! Why are you arguing facts w/ Hamsher?
Section9 Wednesday, December 16th at 11:27AM EST (link)Rand, bless her atheist, S&M addled heart, decoded these people years ago. People like Hamsher don’t care about the facts. They care about power.
Nose in the tent? More power for liberals.
This has nothing to do with facts. It has to do with power.
“History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it”-Winston Churchill
I was wondering...
cari Wednesday, December 16th at 9:08AM EST (link)If we’re sitting here considering how the bill will be changed later if it passes, aren’t the Democratic senators who are opposed to the bill aware of the same thing? Won’t they be careful enough to ensure that the language of the changes they want in order to support the bill will be difficult, if not impossible to change at a later date, ie, no public option or funding for abortion? I have a hard time believing they’re willing to be satisfied enough to vote for an unpopular bill only to have what secured their vote in the first place carved up in committee.
Yeah, but they have to get to the
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:28AM EST (link)“it passes” part, first.
Let it be...
Castor (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:13AM EST (link)Dan,
From your mouth to God´s ears!
Here is the thing,
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:14AM EST (link)and many people do not understand this:
to amend the bill, it takes 60 votes.
So, first to change the bill you need to know what to change it to, in order to get the 60 votes.
The Dems cannot even figure out what policy items need to go into the amendment to change the bill — let alone come up with the legislative language and the score to go with the language. The language they cannot figure out.
How can you write legislative language for an amendment to get you 60 votes if you do not know what to put into the amendment?
And if you do decide what goes into the amendment, and you write the legislative language, you still need 60 votes on the Senate floor.
Oh, and then there is the little item of the White House saying that they will not move on health care after the New Year, because everything is going to be about jobs, jobs, jobs.
And ObamaCare will pass because?
In other words it's going to be harder than...
erod (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:22AM EST (link)hell to give everyone everything they want. That is why the bill will implode.
Dan do you think Obama’s pep talks have lost their luster with these guys? It seems like some are flipping him the bird on this compromise and he doesn’t have the power he once had.
Yep, there is a reason why Obama has been in
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:32AM EST (link)lock-down mode on public statements on health care — it was making things worse.
If you look at the USA Today graph of Obama’s job approval rating, it is almost straight down.
The fact that Obama called everyone in the Dem Senate caucus to the White House and it had no apparent effect is symptomatic of the single thing I keep repeating, and will again:
OBAMACARE IS A POLITICAL FAILURE. ITS POLITICAL FAILURE WILL LEAD TO ITS LEGISLATIVE FAILURE.
The Dems have been delusional about health care — and the leading Jonestown Kool-Aid brigade officers are President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, Senator Reid and Chairman Waxman.
Their arrogance has made them miscalculate massively, and they refused to review their assumptions that were wrong from the get-go.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/presidential-approval-tracker.htm
Manager's amendment
In The Hook (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:23AM EST (link)Dan,
As we saw last night, no even remotely controversial amendment (left or right) is getting through the regular amendment process. It’s all being written by Reid’s office based on what he’s hearing in the cloak room and what his caucus is saying on television and to liberal blogs. He’s walking the tightrope and letting the sideshow of amendment voting go on while dealing with the only amendment that matters. That’s why he has needed 60 confirmed votes before even writing the legislation and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to do so.
But bear in mind we were hours away from a deal after the Medicare buy-in was in place and then when it was dropped, allegedly anyway, so don’t think that the Dems can’t come up with a deal. They still have nearly all the cards here and only their incredible inability to govern the country and their own caucus is keeping ObamaCare from becoming law.
As for the anger on the left, folks it is real. Go read DailyKos. Go read FDL. Go visit DemUnderground. These people are off the rails angry, despite the fact that Obama campaigned against a public option and an individual mandate they think he’s screwing them hard. He’s really not. But one thing we and the lunatic leftists can agree on here is that the individual mandate needs to go and go now. The bill as it is now is absolutely a huge tax that goes straight into the pocket of insurance companies and, though I don’t hate insurance companies like the wacko left, they sure as hell should not get a huge subsidy. Ripping out the individual mandate makes this bill less dangerous for the republic as well in terms of impinging on our freedoms. So maybe we can publicly meet the fruitcake left on that one while still pushing to kill this thing in its entirety. It should would make for a great interview to see Erick and Kos agreeing on burning the mandate to the ground.
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Dan
Mayhem (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:24AM EST (link)If Reid can’t amend the bill through the regular means, say through a manager’s amendment, can he just introduce a new bill altogether?
James Madison, Jim DeMint, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan… You get the picture.
Yes, Dan
cari Wednesday, December 16th at 9:34AM EST (link)Can you please explain how the manager’s amendment works? Does it trump or take the place of amendments offered by other senators, and how many votes will it need?
All of the unanimous consent agreements thus far
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:42AM EST (link)have been that any amendment needs 60 votes, or the amendment is withdrawn.
These are the rules of engagement, so to speak, for ObamaCare in the Senate.
The 60 vote margin is simply the reflection of the reality of the Republican filibuster.
So, the manager’s amendment — which is really the real bill — needs 60 votes to become the replacement for the bill now on the floor.
But the Dems can not figure out what to put in the manager’s amendment (the real bill) to get 60 votes.
And all this talk about changing the bill to pull the public option out to keep Lieberman — is just talk. The bill has not changed.
You need 60 votes to change it. These “deals” are just concepts of adding this or subtracting that to get to 60 — then you have to write the language, score the language, bring the language to the floor and then, hopefully (pls) McConnell will start objecting to any unanimous consent requests having to do with creating the rules of engagement to consider the manager’s amendment.
Am I missing something?
bk (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:34AM EST (link)Why wouldn’t they ask Lieberman to write the amendment with the understanding that every Dem will vote for whatever he comes up with? The left is claiming that Lieberman keeps moving the bar, so the solution seems simple.
Why aren’t they doing it that way?
Then they could do the same with Nelson.
Oops they already tried that and buried what he wanted.
In a word
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:34AM EST (link)NO.
the comment: In a word
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:44AM EST (link)NO
is the answer to the question, can’t Senator Reid just introduce a new bill.
The new bill will be the managers amendment, but in order for it to replace the bill now on the floor, it needs 60 votes.
One other thing: strategic move?
In The Hook (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:27AM EST (link)One final item I must point out is that FDL, Kos and Dean aren’t advocating to kill the bill and then move onto something else. They want to kill the senate bill and then move onto a bill that can be pushed through reconciliation. They want a smaller bill that expands Medicaid and Medicare massively while dropping the individual mandate and the regulations on private insurers.
I don’t think many of us on the right are for preserving the status quo; we want reform but free market reform. Expanding Medicaid and Medicare goes in the opposite direction of that and saddles us with a much bigger deficit as well.
So please do keep in mind that even while the Dem alliance is cracking up, if the left wins they’re just strategically withdrawing from the sinking political ship that is ObamaCare and then launching a new assault, and one that could potentially be MUCH easier for them to pass.
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Yeah, but
cari Wednesday, December 16th at 9:36AM EST (link)wouldn’t it also be much easier to repeal or defund?
It's Medicare
Mike (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:42AM EST (link)Entitlement programs are near-impossible to kill.
“Actually, a government program is the nearest thing to eternal life we’ll ever see in this world.”
Book of Reagan, Chapter 19, verse 64.
True,
cari Wednesday, December 16th at 10:04AM EST (link)but they tinker with Medicare and Medicaid all the time. Expanding an existing entitlement vs. creating a brand new one seems the lesser of two evils, IF something passes…
Everyone is sick of healthcare
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:46AM EST (link)so, the while the appetite for change is still there, everyone needs a little R & R for the troops to let off some steam and refit, re-tool their weapons and ammo up.
My view is bring it on, later, after the New Year.
Be careful!
cari Wednesday, December 16th at 9:53AM EST (link)Reid said yesterday that they’ve been trying to “improve” healthcare since FDR. Doesn’t sound to me like their side is sick of healthcare!
Trust me
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:56AM EST (link)they are sick of health care.
C'mon, Dan, Obama doesn't get his A- unless
janis (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:10AM EST (link)they pass something with “Health Care Reform” on the front page, so they’ll have to pony up something for him to grade himself higher on.
Although at this point, even the left is giving him F’s. What a wonderful Christmas present it is to see them all eating their livers over this skunk of a subject. I’ll be happy to send them a box of Ritz crackers to keep on snacking.
Yes, they can pony something
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:40AM EST (link)that has 60 votes — but this stupid “something will pass” view is so uninformed.
They have a massive political failure on their hands because they believed things that were not true, and even when faced with the truth of health care politics they could not change.
They have been irrational and are now reaping the whirlwind.
Look, I'm not insisting that they will pass something, I
janis (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:59AM EST (link)was joking. Yes, they’ve had a failure on their hands for months now, but it didn’t stop them. They kept it moving along anyway. And that has been patently stupid and unproductive for them. Yet they would never stop and never back down.
I don’t discount their ability to keep being utterly irrational and reaping an even bigger disaster than they have so far. It’s been their record to date, after all, so why not keep shooting themselves in the foot? For those of us who assume that they will try some kind of bill, even if all it does is screw over some identity group in the far off land of Wyomin who all happen to have the last name of Cheney, it’s an assumption because of what they’ve done so far.
My question, Dan, is why would the increased premiums...
penguin2 (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:53AM EST (link)and taxes remain part of the bill, if the public option/single payer is gone? Considering that the supposed benefits of the bill do not kick in for 4-5 yrs, and they collect all this money, how is it justified to collect these funds? And won’t that be even more of a problem, than before, people have to pay more now for benefits that are not scheduled to start for a while.
Again, it appears that the Dems are promising the foolish people the same pipedream of “gas in their car and mortgage payments,” only to have them wake up find out they still have to pay their own bills, or be out on the street. In the case of this HC reform bill, whatever health care you had, if in a government program like Medicaid, they will wake up and find themselves getting less than they get now, because they are sharing the limited resources of health care with so many others. The travesty of this Dem HC bill, is how in the end, if passed, or even a version of it along the lines of government takeover, we will all be affected, but the poor and minorities who already feel they do not have as much as the rest of us, will actually be harmed more.
Just yesterday I heard about states that are already in shortfalls in their Medicaid budgets, and cutting back on free breast cancer screenings for poor women. The states took the government recommendation at their word and now are going to be able to apply it, and who is hurt the poor or those dependent on government health care.
http://blog.al.com/live/2009/12/alabama_13_other_states_cut_fr.html
No one seems to understand, there is only one pie, and only so many ways to slice it up, even if you make it a large pie vs small.
Sorry, did not mean to get long winded, but these points, IMO, represent the true evil of government sponsored/rationed care. If we could stop with the welfare state of dependence, I believe more people could improve their lives. This is not about the truly needy being neglected or forgotten.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List
Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots
or a more basic question
bk (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:43AM EST (link)If these bills reduce the deficit as claimed, why wouldn’t they reduce the tax increases to make it neutral?
The simple answer, not to be redundant, is
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:49AM EST (link)they need 60 votes to change the bill.
Penguin2
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 9:58AM EST (link)I do not have all the answers.
LOL, Dan.
penguin2 (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:08AM EST (link)I hope you didn’t take it amiss my question. I actually realize the Dems are just sleight of hand artists with lots of corruption mixed in and they do not tell the people the truth. If they really cared about the people and true health care reform, they would be doing it entirely differently, including tort reform, allowing insurance to be carried interstate, etc. And I guess they will collect the money and do use it for other things, as they’ve done before.
But I do think you know quite a bit.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List
Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots
:)
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:29AM EST (link)You Know The Left Done Lost Its Mind When Jane Hampster Becomes a Leader
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:06AM EST (link)Kos, Hampster, Dean, …
What a parade of losers.
They are, in my view,
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:30AM EST (link)acting in their own political interest.
And, regardless of the fact that I disagree with them, at least they have courage.
I hate cowards. Really, I cannot stand cowards.
Agreed
In The Hook (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:43AM EST (link)Despite the much lower approval rating, it’s still pretty ballsy to get out there and bash Obama as a traitor to the “progressive” movement and call for the destruction of your own party’s legislation because it’s worthless. That kind of clarion call carries huge risks for their legitimacy as “leaders” but it also hurts the folks on their own side.
If there’s one thing we conservatives are good at it is closing ranks. If Kirk is the nominee in Illinois it won’t be our first choice, but we’ll back him. Same for Simmons in CT. We deal with the personality clashes in the cloak room, not out front, and we realize when the primary fights or committee fights are over, it’s time for all good men to support our side unless it is egregiously wrong (like NY-23). That’s how you govern your caucus and the Dems have never understood that.
It’s certainly courageous to oppose this bill from the left and be dead serious about it, but it’s not particularly smart unless you think your fallback option will be better and will work. That’s where I think Dean and Kos are right now.
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Support conservatives that can win.
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But isn't this part of the usual lefty spin game
bk (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:46AM EST (link)Whether they get 98% of what they wanted or 80% of what they wanted, they act like they gave away the store and the horrible evil GOP made out like bandits.
If they eventually pass something, the Dem attitude will be “You guys screwed us on this, so we’re going to make you pay bigtime when the next bill comes up!”
No, but Dan, that misses the Larger Point
Section9 Wednesday, December 16th at 11:40AM EST (link)The Democratic leadership in the House and Senate, and the WH for that matter, has a larger obligation to the Nation and its posterity.
Truman, for his part, stood up to the negativism and tendency towards isolationism in post war America to work with Arthur Vandenberg in the Senate and push through the Marshall Plan with his secretary of State, George C. Marshall. Ike, in his time, worked with Sam Rayburn and LBJ, to help pass several defense appropriation bills and the Interstate Highway Act.
In each case, these Presidents and Congressmen were acting in the larger national interest and were thinking decades ahead. I don’t see that here. I see people thinking in the narrow political interest of the Democratic Party. I don’t see courage.
“History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it”-Winston Churchill
Progressives will kill this
neoavatara (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:14AM EST (link)The irony is that progressives may do what tea parties could not: kill this bill. Don’t be all that surprised.
http://neoavatara.com/blog/?p=9100
www.neoavatara.com/blog
Read your post
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:37AM EST (link)I like it.
The irony
Black River Wolf (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:47AM EST (link)The Dems are more divided than the republicans by far. The only thing that keeps them together is abortion. Other than that,they are a bunch of single issue voters that stay together just to keep abortions legal and easy to get.
I was thinking the Dems implosion would come during the elections last year.
“In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame,
two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.”—-John Adams
I love the knife in the back approach that the Donks are doing right now
Richard Mullins (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:17AM EST (link)They really don’t like each other and if one amendment goes down the one who’s amendment that gets killed they in turn kill the other amendment. As long as this happens, we’re safe from ObamaCare.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
thats right
kyle8 (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:21PM EST (link)Your fellow democrat legislators are not your Bud’s, more like a pack of sharks just waiting for you to show a moment of weakness.
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
But the official story will still be that Republican obstruction killed it
bk (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:48AM EST (link)Won’t it? They never seem to let the truth get in the way of what their spin machine churns out.
So what?
In The Hook (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:58AM EST (link)This might have been a problem if a majority of the public supported the bill, but poll after poll says that while the public wants SOMETHING done about health care, they think this bill is bad. They like some provisions that may make us conservatives queasy, but their overarching fears about the deficit and making their own family’s care worse (and they’re right to have those fears) is what is just devastating this bill.
Frankly, I think the GOP can make huge political hay out of this if they can kill the bill and then immediately move to implement free market reforms. The Dems will want to move on, but if the GOP leadership presses the issue and repeatedly gets out in front of the public with its own ideas once ObamaCare is dead and buried, I think the people will see conservatives are more than obstructionists. The Dems will obviously never allow a vote on any GOP proposal, but it would be good politics to make such a move as it clearly demonstrates that we’re not for the status quo but we’re even more against what the Dems want to implement.
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A small price to pay if ObamaCare goes down
civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:02AM EST (link)…and right now, about as punishing as the comfy chair.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Absolutely, civil truth. In this case, Republican
janis (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:25AM EST (link)obstructionism is a feature, not a bug, and it’s worth votes at this point. Goes back to so many here who have said that being the Party of No is the best move they could make now.
If Republicans get credit for killing ObamaCare
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:40AM EST (link)it will be good for Republicans, because so much of the voting public is so opposed to the bill.
Therefore, the media will not give Republicans the credit, but the credit for killing the bill will go to the left.
amen Dan, it would be one of the top 5 conservative highlights of all-time - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:48AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I agree and if the GOP doesn't shoot itself in the foot as usual
bk (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 11:55AM EST (link)They should be ready to trot out ads showing Dem defeats of amendment after amendment that 90% of the public would favor.
I would just recommend the following
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:23PM EST (link)and note the date:
http://www.redstate.com/dan_perrin/2009/08/16/the-democrats-irrational-political-behavior-on-health-care/
This is most reasonable psychological assessment of what the Dems have don on health care.
Lead by Speaker Pelosi and President Obama.
Just heard on Neil Boortz that Coburn is requiring the
janis (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:17PM EST (link)reading of Sander’s 700+ page amendment. The games have begun….
Go Repubs! Make them cry.
BIG FUN
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:23PM EST (link)really, BIG FUN
Just checked out Politico, and their
janis (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:44PM EST (link)take on this is that is shows ” perhaps the clearest indication that Democrats are picking up momentum” on passing the bill.
Wow. Way to make champagne out of lemons, guys!
I'm hearing it right now
Richard Mullins (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:24PM EST (link)It’s the best thing I’ve heard all day. Coborn objected a few times and one time Sanders asked him on the objection.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
What will be hilarious
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:41PM EST (link)Is when some of the language from these amendments start leaking out. Most libs STILL think Obama is going to GIVE them FREE healthcare. Most of them don’t have a clue that they will end up in jail.
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
It's really funny
Richard Mullins (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 2:43PM EST (link)They have a tag team of readers of the amendment. I think that it sstay on the long end of time. This is going to cut in Lautenburg’s bed time(85 yr old man).
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
Rmullins Pics
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
Sanders withdrew his amendment
Richard Mullins (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 2:50PM EST (link)Sanders is going ballistic right now. No Coronal Sanders, you did have a prayer when it come to you and you’re socialist ilk are going to stand.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
Rmullins Pics
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
Didn't anyone catch my Monty Python reference?
civil truth (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 1:10PM EST (link)regarding the punishment of the “comfy chair”…starring Reid, Pelosi, and Obama
Republican opponents should be eagerly anticipating the advent of the Democratic Inquisition.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Yes
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 5:12PM EST (link)I’m a big Monty Python fan. NICE
Thanks Dan
WarEagle01 (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:31AM EST (link)I would have no idea what is really going on with this POS bill if it wasn’t for you.
“A wise, doughy leg with rich tingly experiences will always reach better conclusions than will a more tanned, muscular leg that hasn’t felt those thrills.” –Chris Matthews’ Leg
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We are all playing our part
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 10:37AM EST (link)in this little drama…
Coburn forcing the reading of the Sanders Amendment...all 767 pages.
rcov092 (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:18PM EST (link)n/t finally they let the pit bull loose.
“Not One Red Dime for the NRSC or NRCC till they stop trying to elect liberals”
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It's being read as we type
Richard Mullins (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:29PM EST (link)The start on this began with Coburn’s objections to the Sanders amendment at first. I must say it’s going to take awhile to get through this.
Richard Phillip Mullins BlogThe Squash Satire SiteNews on Happy Jet Airlines
Rmullins Pics
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
A kowalski...that means we can start to read the full bill somtime in January
rcov092 (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:19PM EST (link)should be ready to vote sometime between May and August.
“Not One Red Dime for the NRSC or NRCC till they stop trying to elect liberals”
Join the RedState Strike Force
the health bill could just spin in place
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 8:40PM EST (link)until the Dems finally realize that they need to kill it off themselves because it’s destroying them politically.
But that would be rational.
And on health care, the only constant has been that the Dems have been irrational.
193 Pages...
martellus (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:33PM EST (link)If the public option and abortion payments are taken out of this and the rest is passed then you have 1,811 pages of legislation that will grant the government complete control of the Health Care industry.
The liberals for all of their protestations will pass this bill. They get 95% of what they want and they get to slip the last two pieces in afterwards basically using the argument that well we have this much go the last 5 yards for the public option.
In regards to abortions they are confident that if they get this much the courts shall mandate that not providing for abortions will be discriminatory.
The Hammer
Well, the won't take the abortion stuff
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 4:17PM EST (link)out of the bill.
They need 60 votes.
When Obama said yesterday that,...
erod (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 12:40PM EST (link)“He was cautiously optimistic” about getting health care done, to me that is very bad news for the Dims. That quote translates to, “Well this thing might not get done.” For a narcissist like Obama, who believes that he has the power to bend the will of any obstacle he faces and always have a positive outcome in the end. That “cautiously optimistic” quote should serve as a sign of weakness. We are making them bleed and they are hurting. This healthcare monster is weak in the knees: their base isn’t happy, we’re not happy, members of their party (Congressman, Senators and party leaders) aren’t happy. Dan’s right this is a political failure.
THIS IS OBAMA’S WATERLO, DEMINT WAS RIGHT! THEY CAN SEE IT ALL AROUND THEM!
They see it in the polls for healthcare, his approval rating, the tea parties, states saying they want to secede and will not be participating in Obama Care. The narcissist is failing!
He isn’t God! He isn’t anything special! He’s just a two bit Chicago thug! And being a Chicagoan and seeing my fair share of Chicago thugs I can tell you that that sort of style doesn’t work well on the national level.
We are winning this fight even though the MSM and the Dems would have us think otherwise. Just remember pride comes before the fall.
Wow, I give this comment a A+
izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 1:14PM EST (link)Much better than Obama’s B+, who the hell grades themselves anyway?
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
Thanks for the props
erod (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 2:23PM EST (link)Sanders yanked his amendment...but it seems as if he is off on a 20-30 hour rant...
rcov092 (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 2:55PM EST (link)this is even better than reading the amendment. Awesome, what would Amy Miller say? Trendy?
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I guess he did not have 60 votes
Dan Perrin (Diary) Wednesday, December 16th at 4:16PM EST (link)oh well