Well, now this is something. The New York Times is actually reporting the Dems still do not have 60 votes, even after Senator Reid’s much trumpeted vapor deal by the MSM (mainstream media):
“Democrats do not dispute that they still have not nailed down the 60 votes that will be needed to approve the health care measure.”
At noon today, MoveOn.org sent out an email from former Labor Secretary Robert Reich pounding the Reid vapor bill:
You’ve probably heard about a possible “deal” in the Senate to do away with the public option.
I’m here to tell you that this is no deal: it’s a gift to Big Insurance, plain and simple.
The details are sketchy. The only thing that’s really clear is the deal would drop the public option from the bill. With no public option, there’s no guarantee of real competition. And without real competition, health care costs will continue to be out of control.
But the deal is far from done. If voters generate a massive outcry around this and progressive leaders in Congress fight back, we can fix it.
So now that the left has weighed in against the Reid vapor deal, it will put pressure on those liberal Senators who were tapped by Senator Reid to negotiate with the moderates to pull the bill farther to left, making an agreement more difficult, to say the least.
Even before the pressure from MoveOn.org, The Hill reports this morning that the Landrieus and Lincolns of the Senate are not on board the Reid vapor bill:
“Two centrist Democrats at the center of the Senate’s tense healthcare reform negotiations insisted that there has been no compromise deal on the legislation despite Majority Leader Harry Reid’s (D-Nev.) pronouncements.
“There’s no specific compromise. There were discussions,” Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) said at a press conference Wednesday.”
And the following, from a Politico story titled “[Senate] Moderates uneasy with Medicare plan,” explains why:
“by Thursday, the shine had dimmed, as senators grew restless over a lack of information and declined to commit their votes until they could review the legislative language and the Congressional Budget Office cost estimate. Republicans also stepped up their criticism of the plan.
“The three moderates — Sens. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.), Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) and Olympia Snowe (R-Maine), whose votes could make or break health reform this year — expressed varying degrees of resistance to the Medicare idea.
“Snowe said the Medicare expansion exacerbates an “already-serious problem,” with the low government reimbursement rates for doctors and hospitals that serve Medicare patients. It could force her to vote no, she said.
“Lieberman indicated that he was growing “increasingly concerned” about the proposal.
“And Nelson said allowing people ages 55 to 64 to purchase Medicare coverage could simply be an intermediate step on the way to an entirely government-run health care system — “which I do not like.”
“I wouldn’t be surprised if this thing does not become a viable option,” Nelson said. “I think it is going to be the lesser of the popular things, but I am keeping an open mind.”
Other Democratic Senators are backing off the Reid vapor deal, The Hill reported at noon today:
“The supposed healthcare deal cut by Harry Reid is a “non-starter,” Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) said today.
Reid announced this week that Democrats had reached a “broad agreement” on replacing the public option with a Medicare “buy-in” provision and a series of non-profit insurance plans similar to what federal employees are offered.
But apparently that “broad agreement” didn’t include Nelson.
“I think when we get the score back from CBO that it’s going to be too costly,” Nelson told Fox News Live today.”
By the way, the word on the street is that the other Senator Nelson has been bought off — something about him being an appropriator.
Steve Maley
KnightsofMalta
It is absolutely essential that you pass this bill...
Dan McLaughlin (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 2:06PM EST (link)…we’ll tell you what’s in it when we figure it out.
“No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong.” – Winston Churchill
The scary thing is that that works for them.
Bill S (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 2:08PM EST (link)Reid has the D side of the Senate wrapped around his pinky, just like Nancy in the House. All he has to do is wave a few million in front of them and they fall in line.
“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins
But, why does that work anymore?
yoyo (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 2:15PM EST (link)A “few million”….
Thanks to the Treasury and Little Timmy, a million isn’t a million anymore.
It is like, what — $10 now?
A few million MIGHT buy a couple gallons of gas next year….
….This is all so very sad…..
Nemo me impune lacesset
“No one will provoke me with impunity!”
=============================
Pukin’ Dogs – The Fighting 143
Sans Reproache
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The ‘yoyo’ replaced my cigarettes January 22, 2006….
To paraphrase Senator Dirksen (adjusted for inflation)
mikedaire Friday, December 11th at 3:03PM EST (link)“A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you’re talking real money.”
All congress critters can be bought (and sold). That’s always been understood. The difference here is the Obama crew are just not hiding it or think we’re too stupid to notice.
With CNN finding 61% opposition today...
LibertarianHawk (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 2:19PM EST (link)….you have to wonder how some of the Dems who are either on or near the fence on this issue are going to respond.
What’s most interesting about the poll’s finding is that, only last month, the same polling organization found 46% support, 49% opposition to the House version.
Today, they find only 36% support and 61% opposition to the Senate version.
They are killing themselves politically
Dan Perrin (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:22PM EST (link)the longer this is on the floor
The are delusional
zuiko (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:56PM EST (link)The lesson they all took from 1994 is that they *weren’t liberal enough* and that is why they got killed in the midterms. It wasn’t the tax hikes or gun control they passed, it was the health care takeover they failed to pass. They really have no clue what they are doing to themselves.
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. – Milton Friedman
I disagree
mikedaire Friday, December 11th at 4:15PM EST (link)If they get this thing through the Senate and onto Obama’s desk, they will suffer heavy loses in 2010. This much I believe. Beyond that, we will not be able to repeal this law, once in effect, for the large number of dependents the law will create. And not just direct beneficiaries but those who will become dependent upon the state when the job market contracts and more voters wind up on government welfare rolls.
I’d like to believe that the Democrats are not that cynical; that they would not purposely destroy the economy (and their short term fortunes) for their party’s long term gain. But anyone with a single brain cell can see this is what is going to happen. So I have to acknowledge that they are putting their party’s long term interests over the country’s. It’s the only way I can explain their actions other than delusional.
Not so fast!
Adjoran (Diary) Saturday, December 12th at 6:10AM EST (link)The Democratic strategy has always assumed that once the new entitlement is created, the legions of beneficiaries would make repeal impossible. BUT this plan doesn’t start paying ANY benefits until 2014 – until then, they just collect taxes without providing anything. There won’t be any constituency clamoring to keep it, because nobody will be getting anything from it.
Republicans could not “repeal” it, even with control of House and Senate, because Obama would have to sign the repeal. But they could refuse to fund it, and cut off the taxes (which would precipitate a showdown with Obama, he being on the side of continued taxation for nothing).
One does have to wonder at anyones ability to vote in favor of a Bill not yet written.
USNJIMRET (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 2:24PM EST (link)Although we see it on a regular basis anymore.
Then, *GASP*, those darned “unintended consequences’ crop up and ‘Golly gee, we’ll have to amend the secretly arrived at Bill with yet more secret deals.
Huh, what? Our ‘trust’ rating is lower then a Used Car Salesman??
Ungrateful masses!
Don’t they know how much we care about the ‘little people’???
The So-Called 'Blue Dogs' - Like Nelson
conservativegeorgian43 (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 2:31PM EST (link)Ben Nelson? Bought off? Gasp! What a shocker and surprise that is.
Yes, there’s always corruption in government but what’s new is that it’s right out in the open. They don’t even bother to hide it anymore.
If Nelson has been bought off we're screwed; I have a bad feeling this is going to pass. nt
erod (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 2:42PM EST (link)No worries
Dan Perrin (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:24PM EST (link)it’s just a persistent rumor, not news
Buy Offs
MSU_Charles Friday, December 11th at 2:45PM EST (link)If this is true about them not having 60 votes, then how much do you think Snowe & Collins are being offered? If it passes, I bet one, if not both, sell us out.
They have a number of serious problems
Dan Perrin (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:25PM EST (link)regardless that will kill it
Snowe and Collins
countessolenska Friday, December 11th at 3:42PM EST (link)I think both of these senators would really like to be involved in reforming health care. They are trying to stay in the game with the Dems, but they signal when they can’t support different provisions and also when they do support something. It seems like they’re trying to shape it with their opinions because they know that Obama wants some Republicans to buy in to this bill.
HHS analysis
ericstenner Friday, December 11th at 2:57PM EST (link)HHS economists just released an analysis that says the Senate bill will drive costs up $234 bil over 10 years, and that cutting $500 bil from Medicare may be unrealistic. I assume that was the old bill, the pre-Reid-vapor bill. So in the vapor bill they are going to add even more people to Medicare, yet still maintain they will be able to pay for all of it with Medicare cuts.
And that is not even taking into account how much Max Baucus tucked into the bill for his girlfriend.
It will be amazing if they are still able to patch together 60 votes for this steaming pile of a bill. It seems to be decomposing like the mound of manure that it is.
Bill Nelson (D)
VizBiz (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:21PM EST (link)Just called Reids bill a “non starter”.
Runs with scissors, walks with Wacom.
NICE!
Dan Perrin (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:25PM EST (link)n/t
That's Senator Nelson of Florida
Dan Perrin (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:27PM EST (link)http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/71843-nelson-fla-healthcare-compromise-a-non-starter
All The GOP Has To Do Is Stall This Until The Break
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:31PM EST (link)A couple of week at home outside the pressures of the Beltway and in the company of consitutents will push of the Senate moderates further away from Reid.
Delay, delay, delay.
McConnell tells Rush he's trying to kill the bill
countessolenska Friday, December 11th at 3:31PM EST (link)…through all of these amendments.
According to Talking Points Memo (lib site):
“On his radio show today, Rush Limbaugh said that none other than Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) told him that the Republicans are offering amendments to the health care bill, not to improve the bill, but as a parliamentary maneuver to “flush out” Democratic centrists Ben Nelson and Jim Webb, and to try to peel them away and thus stop the bill.”
I suspected Webb and/or Warner might fold. Warner offered his cost-saving amendments.
I wonder if McConnell is right.
Insider Stuff
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:35PM EST (link)Its hard to tell. Lots of people have opinions, but its tough to really know whats going on in the Senate Cloak Rooms.
How do you peel off Democrats?
countessolenska Friday, December 11th at 3:39PM EST (link)What amendments are Republicans offering that are “peeling off” Democrats? How does that work? You either vote Yeah or Nay.
It appears that moderate Dems are just becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the Dems’ “compromises” and the sinking poll numbers.
Time
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:43PM EST (link)Every week and month that goes by support for the bill diminishes; support for Obama diminishes. Its easier to vote for a bill that has 50% support than one that has 40%, and one that has 40% compared to one that has 30%.
If their constituents reject it loud enough, they will wilt, especially in states like Virginia, where Obama is sinking faster than a Tim Lincecum Curveball.
McConnell's approach might make sense in theory
bk (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 7:19PM EST (link)but in practice it’s much closer to worthless it seems to me. They are trying to “trap” centrist Dems. Well on all these individual “trap” votes, the centrists can vote with the Republicans if they feel it suits their next election better. Then they’ll still vote for the final bill, arguing to their constituents that they are disappointed that the improvements they wanted didn’t make it in, but that overall it was important to get it passed.
So in the end some bill gets passed most likely and there hasn’t been too much “trapping” done.
Then again...
bk (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 7:35PM EST (link)I just read an article where some are saying that it’s starting to feel like the sense of inevitability that existed at the start of the amnesty debate a couple years ago. That didn’t turn out to be so inevitable after all.
I''ll go over to Terrible Herst gas station in Seachlight NV
bobojake (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 3:36PM EST (link)and dump some more hot water on the cold boulder, do my ol Indians Favorite Dance and see if we can’t keep vaporizing the foney fraudulent reidgate -obamagate healthcare.
Go easy, Harry can't count to 60,
johnt Friday, December 11th at 4:30PM EST (link)10 maybe. An understandable mistake, but I love it when he borrows from Bill Clinton and does the hand on heart thing. Ohh, doesn’t the sincerity of both just break your heart?
“a man’s admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him”. Tocqueville
Amendment killers Dan :)
RealQuiet (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 4:33PM EST (link)The Dorgan amendment along drug importation from Canada seems to have shut down the Senate. McCain, Thune, and a few GOP senators are in favor with this. However, it is unclear if all of them are. Thune hinted that the GOP might vote for this amendment as it would likely kill Obamacare as well as embarrass the White House – Big Pharma deal. Reid is desperately trying to get together 60 votes to avoid these amendment killers and shut off debate. However, with Snowe being a solid no, Lieberman, both Nelsons, and Lincoln having cold feet with no political cover it is fun times for the GOP.
Lautenberg amendment.
redneck_hippie (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 4:43PM EST (link)According to Rush today, the Lautenberg amendment would render the Dorgan amendment toothless. Republicans need to proceed carefully here and make sure they have a grasp on the implications of these shifty maneuvers by Reid and the Ds.
NOTE: THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN MCCONNELL OBJECTS
Dan Perrin (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 6:45PM EST (link)to a unanimous consent agreement by Reid.
McConnell needs to be strongly encouraged to OBJECT to all unanimous consent agreements on ObamaCare unless it is to send the Senators home for a weekend or a break.
Why are we letting the Senate work on the weekend???
We have rival liberal camps then
countessolenska Friday, December 11th at 5:20PM EST (link)It’s Robert Reich versus Howard Dean and perhaps Paul Krugman then, because the latter two favor the Medicare buy-in deal.
The problem with Reich’s theory is that I don’t see how the government is an effective competitor to the private sector. Why can’t they just allow more competition in the private sector??!!
subsidized competition
jackhammer Monday, December 14th at 11:52AM EST (link)On its own merits, no government program has been able to be meaningful competitioon to the free market. It just doesn’t happen. Overregulation, improper incentive allignment and the like have made every government program more expensive and less effective than the private alternatives….pretty much in every country in the world…..
But that is on its own merits….the game changer is the ability to subsidize out of the general pool. Private enterprises do not have this luxury in their markets. If they are in the health care business, they have to make the health care business profitable on its own, based upon the fees they can charge and the costs that they have….they don’t have a big pile of other money they can get at to make politically expedient pricing work…..the public option can…the public option can tax people earning over a certain number a surcharge for health insurance, to fund the ones they consider to be more needy….
I am not a fan of insurance companies….I can’t be a fan of anyone who lobbies the government,a nd definitely not of an industry that is exempt from anti-trust, while at the same time lobbying for coverage mandates and blocking interstate competiton.
I wish health care was like retail. I wish there were WalMart hospitals and Niemann Marcus Hospitals…and people could pick the ones that best suit their needs. And that insurance could be sold across country, and potentially internationally. I see insurance to cover disaster, but not to cover everything,a nd I see tax deferred savings accoutns for health costs,a dn then lettign the consumer decide,a dn that bringing prices down, just like it has in retail.
Dang, Dorgan Amendment Shut Down The Whole Debate
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 6:51PM EST (link)Big dealings going on with Phrma. Everybody’s jockeying for position. Dems are being forced to flip-flop to keep the bill going forward.
I have a new theory about what is really going on.
Swamp can you tell us, or do you need to wait?
penguin2 (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 7:26PM EST (link)I mean, maybe it is not for the Left’s ears to hear?
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills
Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List
Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots
Nothing Serious
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 7:58PM EST (link)Everyone’s so focused on Republicans delaying this bill. It just dawned upon me that certain Blue Dogs seem to be stalling this bill as much as anyone and I’m starting to think some of them are doing it for strategic reasons and some of those reasons having nothing to do with health care at all.
Thinking that if they stall it long enough, then
janis (Diary) Friday, December 11th at 9:01PM EST (link)it will die on its own? Or are they waiting for some pivotal event to kill it off for them so they won’t have to continue to commit political suicide?
It is the natural tension between the two parts of
Dan Perrin (Diary) Saturday, December 12th at 5:47AM EST (link)their party — the pro-lifers and the pro-abortioners and the pro-Phrma and the anti-Phrma sides.
They cannot help it.