The argument being made by former Democratic Party Chairman Dean is really pretty simple: the only health care reform in the Senate bill is the public option, and if the four moderate Senators kill the public option, then the bill should die. Senator Sanders, again, re-affirms his opposition to his any bill that does not have a public option.
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Don't fall for it.
partyof1 Friday, November 27th at 8:50AM EST (link)We are being lulled into a false sense of security with the notion that there is an irreconcilable split among Dems over the public option.
Sure there is a split, but in the end they’ll settle for a bill without the P.O. Because “insurance reform” with universal mandated coverage is enough to insulate Democrats from the democratic process forever. And they can always tinker with this new law later.
I’ll even tell you how it will go: Dems pass Obamacare with no public option, it eventually becomes clear that it’s a drag on incomes and the economy, a bane to Medicare, inflates the deficit and delivers none of the promised cost reductions. Then they throw their arms up and say “Oh well if we had the public option like we originally wanted, THEN you would see cost savings.”
And with less and less of the population actually paying taxes, and their ability to demagogue this new entitlement , they’ll pass anything they want.
Don’t fall for it.
Agreed. Don't fall for ANYTHING the lefties are saying
RedBeard Friday, November 27th at 9:14AM EST (link)The Democrat Party (and some foolish RINOs in the Republican Party) are dedicated and united in the desire to have government take over health care. Ultra-libs, Blue Dogs, “moderates,” socialists, they’re all pushing the country in the wrong direction, and in a quite well coordinated manner. These so-called disagreements are merely bumps in the road, diversions, smoke-and-mirrors.
Watch what they are doing, not what they are saying.
Standard-bearer for grouchy curmudgeonry since, oh, 1975 or so.
it's not just a ploy, liberals are genuinely obsessed with the public option
clowngirl (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 10:58AM EST (link)Rasmussen has done polling and found that, if you take out the public option, Democrats overwhelmingly lose enthusiasm for the bill.
I don’t believe Democrats are really oblivious to polling – they know this bill is intensely unpopular among Americans in general but still very popular with their base – but that popularity evaporates without the public option.
I think Howard Dean is actually being honest here and trying to get the Democratic party to look at it’s actual self interest. This is a toxic bill with the electorate in general but – if they pass it with the public option – the base will be fired up and donate/work their tails off in 2010. If they were to pass it without a public option- Republicans and a good number or Independents with hit a stratospheric level of outrage and be motivated to a degree he doesn’t even want to think about- and their base as Dean puts it will “sit on their hands.” They’ll get killed.
Obviously his goal isn’t to kill the bill – it’s to get a public option by any means neccessary. But I don’t think his points are bogus. I think he’s trying to get Democrats to face political reality. A bill with a public option keeps the base while infuriating a majority of Americans but a watered down bill ticks everybody off and insures doom for Democrats.
When push comes to shove, Liberals will always "settle"
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Sunday, November 29th at 8:17PM EST (link)for some Incremental-ism steps than nothing at all – always been their MO and don’t see any reason why it would change now. They know they won’t have this chance for another decade or two.
Dean was on Chris Wallace’s Fox News Sunday spouting the same old Democrat Talking Points (read: lies) they were peddling through all the Townhalls. (some of those Townhalls and the lies: here, here, here, here, here, and HC issues summary here)
As others point out in this Diaries discussion, they have been pulling the Liberal Incremental-ism, behind the scenes, growth/movement toward these plans all along – with far too many Republicans continually willing to go along with them as long as the MONEY AND POWER GRAB isn’t too large. Best example is SCHIP that keeps getting expanded beyond its original “good intent” to cover POOR CHILDREN. The age allowance, the qualifying income level, etc, all keep growing and growing and growing Yet, others keep advocating (here in this Diaries threads) to ALLOW a “Public Option” over “Exchange” because they see little difference. UNREAL!!!
Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
“Liberals, looking to do for? America what they’ve done for? Detroit! which is DESTROY IT!”
“I think, therefore I am Conservative”
“Conservative by choice, Republican by necessity”
“You can lead a Liberal to the Truth/Facts, but you cannot make them THINK!”
“Romney [No, not my first choice] does NOT have a MORMON problem. He has a, far too many Americans; these days; are MORONS problem!”
Follow @JLenardDetroit
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Dan, isn't Dean saying the Ds should go reconciliation route?
SoFiMil (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 9:26AM EST (link)Dean doesn’t think the health care bill should be killed if it doesn’t include the PO, only that Democrats pass the PO through reconciliation.
www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com
I Actually Believe Sanders
DavidSage (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 10:44AM EST (link)Some of these other liberal Democrats that are stomping their feet and saying they won’t vote for any health care bill unless it has a public option are simply bluffing to placate their base, in my opinion.
But a Senator like Sanders, who considers himself too far to the left to join the Democrat Party, runs as an independent, and regularly calls himself a socialist, is a committed ideologue who’s not willing to sacrifice his principles on a regular basis.
If Sanders keeps his word, I think it’s very likely that no health care bill will pass at all, with a few Senators on one side saying No to any public plan, and a few other Senators saying Yes to only a public plan.
Is Sanders Vowing
Joe Cor (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 5:19PM EST (link)to vote against cloture, or just against final passage? The first is a real threat to the bill, the second is not.
Same question applies with Lieberman. nt
redneck_hippie (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 5:28PM EST (link)My understanding is
Joe Cor (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 8:59PM EST (link)Lieberman is threatening to vote against cloture. I’m not sure what Sanders is vowing to do.
That's some small comfort
redneck_hippie (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 9:12PM EST (link)as far as Lieberman’s vote. Having watched almost the entire debate on the House vote, it’s difficult not to expect the worst. The most that I expect from any Dem is selling out their constituents and then placating them with Obama Bucks. Any optimism I garner is from expecting them to pay attention to Virginia and New Jersey, but that presumes rationality on their part.
Why would liberals not be outraged?
Menlo (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 3:23PM EST (link)In this case, they set up this “exchange” that virtually makes the insurance companies agents of the government. Taxpayers will be funding these “evil” companies while they raise premiums ad infinitum.
Rather than simply seeing it as nothing of value, I do not see why they would they not campaign against it as worse than doing nothing?
Even as a conservative, I would argue this “exchange” idea is WORSE than a so-called “public option.” It is almost the same thing. It just makes multiple “public options” and uses the private sector to administer them. In addition, it encourages the state-level oligopolies and near-monopolies to continue. It’s a sham that will cause harm to ALL taxpayers, especially those who are content with their health insurance.
It disturbs me to hear people talk as though defeating a “public option” would be even a minuscule victory.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Because it's a huge foot in the door
DavidSage (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 4:28PM EST (link)If people have the option of “free” government health care. you’ve created a new entitlement that’s incredibly hard to get rid of.
I agree everything about this bill is bad, but it’s much easier to repeal and reform bad legislation than it is to get rid of entitlements. If tens of millions of Americans (and their children) use the government option, politicians have to placate that voting bloc. When’s the last time you heard a Republican politician campaign to get rid of Medicaid? And that’s an entitlement that only has a small amount of people.
Programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. started out small, and ballooned into entitlements that are pushing the nation into bankruptcy.
If there is a “government” option, every private employer will drop their health insurance plan and push them on to the government plan. Insurance copanies will go out of business since they can’t compete with free.
Eventually, the government option is the only option.
Still, what's the difference?
Menlo (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 7:51PM EST (link)For starters, the “public option” is supposed to have higher premiums. Secondly, it will come with a stigma that will turn people off. If people can get the same subsidies, why choose the one with the stigma?
Again, you are speaking as though the “exchange” is not itself a “public option.” Plans under it will be government-created, taxpayer-subsidized and government-run. If that is not enough, the bill puts mandates on ALL health insurance that are tantamount to making the whole industry completely government-run.
So why is the “exchange” different from something called a “public option?”
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Clearly, it's a distinction that upsets liberals
DavidSage (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 8:31PM EST (link)If the exchange system were a defacto form of universal health care, there wouldn’t be so much screaming from the Left.
The devil’s in the details, but it seems to me that it’s much easier to repeal some sort of insurance exchange program than it is to throw millions off of health insurance. It would be like trying to reform Medicare to current recipients.
An exchange program sounds like more heavy-handed regulation with insurance companies, coupled with increased subsidies. It’s bad, but it’s easier to kill. In contrast, no country has ever repealed universal health care.
That's not so
Menlo (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 9:53PM EST (link)The liberals hate it because the “exchange” still gives money to the insurance companies, and lots of it.
The so-called “public option” as it is being proposed, could never ever overtake private insurance because it will cost as much or more, and it will come with a stigma. Few people will opt for it. The “exchange” is not mere “heavy-handed regulation;” it is actually set up, dictated, and controlled by the government. And most importantly, the taxpayers will be funding it. Such funding, even more than a “public option,” is perhaps THE most blatantly unconstitutional part of the whole bill!
There is ample “heavy-handed regulation” for insurance OUTSIDE the exchange in the bill to the point it will not exist in a few years.
Repealing an “exchange” would throw millions more off of health insurance. Regardless, nothing that can pass is going to be able to be able to be repealed.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
One quibble with this
Leopard1996 (Diary) Saturday, November 28th at 12:01PM EST (link)You state that no person would opt for the public option. That is assuming all other things are equal. However, if say my company decides that they no longer want to pay the health benefits, and I have to find my own, what are the options then? My company is probably not going to pay me the money they spent to provide my insurance, the only options would probably be the public option. Remeber the govenment doesn’t have to worry about making a profit, so they can under cut and under cut private insurance in the short run, make the rules so that private companies have to cover all things that they would not have had to before, and the private insurers go bankrupt or leave the industry.
“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen
It doesn't work that way.
Menlo (Diary) Saturday, November 28th at 2:15PM EST (link)This “public option” will not be cheaper than a plan in an “exchange” the way it is set up. It will cost as much or more. As has been pointed out here before, insurance company profit is not a significant portion of premiums. If so, then the cost difference in that respect won’t be very significant. Both the “public option” and the “exchange” plans are funded through the same premium charges and tax-funded subsidies.
Also, the current proposals will penalize all but the smallest employers who decide they no longer want to provide health benefits. If they still do not provide you enough to buy your own, in which case they would be penalized even more, you will be eligible for government subsidies for a plan in the “exchange.”
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Cato institute estimates true costs as $6T
redneck_hippie (Diary) Saturday, November 28th at 2:28PM EST (link)and lists CBO budgetary gimmicks used to hide them.
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/28/cato-obamacare-price-tag-is-6-trillion/
h/t hotair
What does that have to do with it?
Menlo (Diary) Saturday, November 28th at 3:38PM EST (link)It would appear to only prove my point that this “public option” is irrelevant. Either way, everyone will pay lots of their income either in taxes or to “private” insurers while most get less in return.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Who said I disagreed? nt
redneck_hippie (Diary) Saturday, November 28th at 3:42PM EST (link)Not Irrelevant
DavidSage (Diary) Saturday, November 28th at 7:38PM EST (link)You must be the only conservative that doesn’t think it’s a worthwhile fight to kill the public option. I agree the other parts of the bill of this ever changing bill are bad, but a government or public option is the real game changer.
Once you open the door to a public option where the government is the insurer, Democrats can play all sorts of games, making it easier to qualify, lowering the cost to enter, expanding it to “help the children”, etc., but this agency has to be created first. That’s what this fight is over.
If a health care bill passes without a public option, it will be an enormous blow to the Left, and a huge victory for conservatives. Believe me, liberals will viciously go after the moderates Democrats that didn’t back a public option. This is the closest in several generations that liberals have come to implementing socialized medicine in this country. I really don’t see how they can truly implement universal health care in this country without first creating a public option.
Hogwash
Menlo (Diary) Saturday, November 28th at 9:43PM EST (link)And I will vigorously oppose and work to defeat any Republican who supports any amendment to strike it.
You don’t seem to realize that the government does the SAME THING with the “exchange.” They are playing the same sorts of games. The companies that administer the plans will be de facto government agencies. The difference is that they will gets profits courtesy of the taxpayer.
This bill does some pretty horrific things to ALL policies, even outside the “exchange,” eventually banning them. The “exchange” has all the horrors of the “public option” with none of the benefits of private insurance. You will see the EXACT SAME horrors, or perhaps even worse, if there is no “public option.” The government imposes the same cost and benefit controls on the insurance companies it would put on itself.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Thank you for the clarification
Leopard1996 (Diary) Saturday, November 28th at 3:42PM EST (link)Personally I believe this whole mess needs to be scrapped since it isn’t going to improve a damn thing.
“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen
Scrapping the mess and starting over
countessolenska Sunday, November 29th at 1:24PM EST (link)I think the Republicans have the right idea – to scrap the current bills in Congress and start over.
I’m wondering if Obama’s decision to send more troops to Afghanistan will have any effect on health care legislation and whether the ambitious reforms that are now being proposed will actually advance. It just sounds like too much spending.
I’m wondering if the Dems will go along with incremental reform.
No they won't
Leopard1996 (Diary) Sunday, November 29th at 4:34PM EST (link)In my opinion, I believe that a majority of the dems are all in and pot committed to the bill as it is now. I believe that what is wanted is control and the ability to have a permanent class of voters that will never vote against them as long as the healthcare infrastructure is in place.
“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen
putting/keeping something in the Public Sector is always best over Govt.
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Sunday, November 29th at 8:25PM EST (link)I can’t believe why some have even bothered to have further discussion on it if you truly believe Government expansion is acceptable – as I’ve see advocated in this thread.
Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
“Liberals, looking to do for? America what they’ve done for? Detroit! which is DESTROY IT!”
“I think, therefore I am Conservative”
“Conservative by choice, Republican by necessity”
“You can lead a Liberal to the Truth/Facts, but you cannot make them THINK!”
“Romney [No, not my first choice] does NOT have a MORMON problem. He has a, far too many Americans; these days; are MORONS problem!”
Follow @JLenardDetroit
(RS:Help) (JLD) (Hollyweird) (Brain-deads) (SPIN-cycle) (Obamaocare) (Party of kNOw) (Conservatism) (TEApeats) (respectful) (message) (Warning: Children Will Die!!)
Heil “O” Hell No Obamao is NOT MY PRESIDENT! “No U won’t”
I want “O” to FAIL (here, here, & whole Diary (Ofail) here, is why)
“The first Liberal was Satan” – a Rush caller (other Quotes)
ugh, that was to be "PRIVATE sector" of course (nt)
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Sunday, November 29th at 8:27PM EST (link)Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
“Liberals, looking to do for? America what they’ve done for? Detroit! which is DESTROY IT!”
“I think, therefore I am Conservative”
“Conservative by choice, Republican by necessity”
“You can lead a Liberal to the Truth/Facts, but you cannot make them THINK!”
“Romney [No, not my first choice] does NOT have a MORMON problem. He has a, far too many Americans; these days; are MORONS problem!”
Follow @JLenardDetroit
(RS:Help) (JLD) (Hollyweird) (Brain-deads) (SPIN-cycle) (Obamaocare) (Party of kNOw) (Conservatism) (TEApeats) (respectful) (message) (Warning: Children Will Die!!)
Heil “O” Hell No Obamao is NOT MY PRESIDENT! “No U won’t”
I want “O” to FAIL (here, here, & whole Diary (Ofail) here, is why)
“The first Liberal was Satan” – a Rush caller (other Quotes)
You are falling for the word games
Menlo (Diary) Sunday, November 29th at 9:59PM EST (link)Because it is not called “public” doesn’t mean it is not. The “exchange” is a “public” option because every single bit of it (from the rationing to the denial of life-saving care) is dictated and run by government. It is established by government and funded by government through taxes (or mandatory premium payments if you prefer). The only thing “private” are the companies who stamp their logos on the plans and the companies who determine how much the taxpayer contributes to their profits. It is worse than the bailouts.
Regardless, I hope we are at least in agreement that we must work to defeat any attempt by Republicans to support an amendment striking or weakening the explicit “public option” as it will only make it sure to pass.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
I will agree with you on only one thing
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Sunday, November 29th at 10:33PM EST (link)They are indeed playing word games to pass anything that they will then alter/evolve! Calling the BS in this “competition” does not make it so. Attempting to co-opt yet more terms with the “exchange” or “coop” as cover for Government control is EQUALLY UNACCEPTABLE! The “exchange” is just a mini-public-option scam (which will at a minumum, follow the SCHIP model of Liberal Incremental-ism), that they (Liberals) will turn around and takeover just as they look to take away Medicare-Advantage plans from being run by Private firms. Even with FORCING all the specifics upon Private Health-Insurance firms would still have/keep costs lower than if completely run through a full-out Government run (piled with Liberal cronies) version of it – with some overhead costs monitored (Private) while the same lack of Government over-sight they provided Fannie/Freddie would be in place if Public.
It must all be scrapped…. and it is, IMHO, NOT HELPFUL to discuss settling for any of it!
Demanding it be scrapped and actual HEALTH INSURANCE REFORM including: Cross-State line portability (which States will resist giving up Mandates/Controls), Tort reform, PreExisting condition exclusion (garaunteed issue) elimination (not allowed in MI, enact that Nationally), post/transitional employment coverage (modifying COBRA and HSA/MSA accounts to NOT ZERO OUT each year so multi-year savings can/will PAY FOR OWN COVERAGE while between jobs), (avoiding the HR3200 consequence/fact) More Govt. regulations and paperwork will DRIVE UP not reduce costs and bring us more Lawyers and Office Administrators to deal with it NOT Doctors, etc…. is all I think, again IMO, all that should be heard from ANY CONSERVATIVE voice!
Obamaocare primers: here, here, here, here, here, and HC issues summary here
Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
“Liberals, looking to do for? America what they’ve done for? Detroit! which is DESTROY IT!”
“I think, therefore I am Conservative”
“Conservative by choice, Republican by necessity”
“You can lead a Liberal to the Truth/Facts, but you cannot make them THINK!”
“Romney [No, not my first choice] does NOT have a MORMON problem. He has a, far too many Americans; these days; are MORONS problem!”
Follow @JLenardDetroit
(RS:Help) (JLD) (Hollyweird) (Brain-deads) (SPIN-cycle) (Obamaocare) (Party of kNOw) (Conservatism) (TEApeats) (respectful) (message) (Warning: Children Will Die!!)
Heil “O” Hell No Obamao is NOT MY PRESIDENT! “No U won’t”
I want “O” to FAIL (here, here, & whole Diary (Ofail) here, is why)
“The first Liberal was Satan” – a Rush caller (other Quotes)
I think
Mayhem (Diary) Friday, November 27th at 8:19PM EST (link)the one card that will make our hopes crumble is a revised bill with no public option. I don’t know how they will get there amendment-wise (60 votes with the current Senate membership is a tough climb), but if they do cut the public option, I think it will pass. They will tell the libs to stuff it and be thankful for a class half full.
Basically, I think it will be easier to earn votes without the public option than it would be to earn votes with the public option, because I think the Sanders and the Boxers and the Schumers will shut up and swallow. I don’t know that you could say that for a Nelson, or a Lincoln, or a Landrieu, were the public option to stay.
James Madison, Jim DeMint, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan… You get the picture.
Public option needed to provide competition??
countessolenska Sunday, November 29th at 1:28PM EST (link)When the price of oil was over $100 a barrel, were people advocating that the government get into the oil business to bring more competition for the oil companies? I don’t get why Democrats can say with a straight face that the government needs to offer a public option in order to make insurance companies offer more competitive pricing.
The only way to increase competition is to do it in the private sector.
yes, it is very tiring to keep hearing that "Competiton" BS/distortion
JLenardDetroit (Diary) Sunday, November 29th at 1:47PM EST (link)and the MSM playing it up all over as if there were “logic” in it… I still think we have to be weary that Snowe will sell-out and (potentially) provide cover for a Democrat with the other BS about a “Trigger”….
They’ll then fiddle with it merging the House and Senate versions to ensure the Public Option will kick in the Public Option.
Regards from NoMoTown (the MOTORlessCITY)
“Liberals, looking to do for? America what they’ve done for? Detroit! which is DESTROY IT!”
“I think, therefore I am Conservative”
“Conservative by choice, Republican by necessity”
“You can lead a Liberal to the Truth/Facts, but you cannot make them THINK!”
“Romney [No, not my first choice] does NOT have a MORMON problem. He has a, far too many Americans; these days; are MORONS problem!”
Follow @JLenardDetroit
(RS:Help) (JLD) (Hollyweird) (Brain-deads) (SPIN-cycle) (Obamaocare) (Party of kNOw) (Conservatism) (TEApeats) (respectful) (message) (Warning: Children Will Die!!)
Heil “O” Hell No Obamao is NOT MY PRESIDENT! “No U won’t”
I want “O” to FAIL (here, here, & whole Diary (Ofail) here, is why)
“The first Liberal was Satan” – a Rush caller (other Quotes)