The politics of passing health care reform are exactly opposite in the Democratic controlled U.S. House and U.S. Senate.
1) In the House, Speaker Pelosi, staying true to her San Francisco Democratic roots will not pass health reform without a public option — and she has a recent letter signed by 83 of her Dem House colleagues from the Progressive Caucus, telling the President that a health bill “without a robust public option will not achieve the health reform this country so desperately needs. We cannot vote for anything less.”
2) In the Senate under normal Senate rules, a bill with a public option will not pass.
As it stands now it appears the White House is betting they can roll the Speaker, and the 83 Members of Congress who signed the letter cited above. When I say as it stands now, the repeated flips and flops by the White House and President Obama on this issue have kept both sides hoping they can cause another flip. And MoveOn has now targeted the White House with phone calls.
President Obama’s weapon of choice to convince the Members of Congress that it is OK to be rolled, and convince them they should act against their own political interest — is his own speech, his words — yet another health care speech, by him.
But the constant speechifying by the President on health care reform has not improved his approval rating slide, it keeps sliding. Zogby, in a poll of more than 4,500 likely voters, found President Obama’s approval rating at a record low of 42%.
All major Committees of jurisdiction in the House and Senate that have voted on ObamaCare have given the Republicans the straight-arm (clothesline for those football fans) and all while President Obama has been proclaiming his desire to reach out to Republicans. What this history has meant is that there is no chance the Republicans will save Obama’s bacon. Especially since there were some Republicans at the start of this process who actually believed the President when he said he wants to reach out to Republicans. Some Republicans tried to work with the Democrats crafting the bill and were told we don’t want your help, we don’t need your help and we hate your ideas for our bill.
So, there will be no Republicans to rescue ObamaCare, unless it is changed radically, and Republicans can actually have some input that is not watered down and not changed or gutted by the left.
But, there are more and as-serious fractures in the Democratic Party with regard to the ObamaCare plan details — which in turn decides where the votes are like abortion and cutting half a trillion dollars from Medicare.
Essentially, the President’s list of hard-core political problems that the ObamaCare plan has created is growing more malignant.
The President’s approval rating is dropping, Congress’s approval rating is dropping and members of Congress are being warned by Charlie Cook they should be “terrified” of the big wave elections signs showing up right now.
Given the above, how likely is it that President Obama’s speech before a Joint Session of Congress will save him?
Ultimately, the political logic that President Obama is urging Members of Congress to act on, is illogical:
I AM ASKING YOU TO DO THE VERY THING THAT IS CAUSING MY POLL NUMBERS, AND YOUR POLL NUMBERS TO DROP. IF YOU IGNORE THE POLLS AND PASS OBAMACARE, THINGS WILL BE BETTER THAN IF YOU DO WHAT YOUR VOTERS WANT.
Is that like, we have to spend $1 trillion to save money? Or, ObamaCare will not increase the deficit?
OR
IF YOU DO WHAT THE PUBLIC HAS BEEN TELLING YOU NOT TO DO, AND PASS OBAMACARE, YOUR POLL NUMBERS WILL GO UP! REALLY, I PROMISE.
Here is an idea: the entire Congress should check out the book Groupthink from the Library of Congress. Or, order it from Amazon.
Here is the meaning of the word Groupthink, for the uninitiated:
Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. Individual creativity, uniqueness, and independent thinking are lost in the pursuit of group cohesiveness, as are the advantages of reasonable balance in choice and thought that might normally be obtained by making decisions as a group. During groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking. A variety of motives for this may exist such as a desire to avoid being seen as foolish, or a desire to avoid embarrassing or angering other members of the group. Groupthink may cause groups to make hasty, irrational decisions, where individual doubts are set aside, for fear of upsetting the group’s balance. The term is frequently used pejoratively, with hindsight.
Here is a one sentence definition by Irving Janis
A mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members’ strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action.
There are plenty of words that could be used besides Groupthink. I think everyone has their own favorite one or two of those words.
What will the Left’s reaction be to the most publicly announced intent to roll them? Here is one response from the left:
Steve Maley
Neil Stevens
Daniel Horowitz
I'm concerned that Obama's plan from here is a double reverse
civil truth (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 1:46AM EST (link)He’ll allow the Senate to pass a bill with a weak (such as trigger or coop) or absent public option and let the House pass a public option.
Then in conference, the public option will stay, the House will approve, and the Senate will be under pressure to pass it too (perhaps under reconciliation as a last resort).
The point being that once some health care bill passes the Senate, it will be very hard for the Senate to not pass a revised bill after conference, given the strong Democratic majority – because the dynamics will be reversed and senators will be under pressure from the bandwagon effect.
(And there’s still the wild card of a MA Senate appointment to provide an extra and possibly critical vote if the MA legislative acts quickly.)
Bottom line – we have to stop a bill in the Senate this go round, where the objectors have the upper hand, because it will be almost impossible to stop the mutant form at the conference report stage where the deals and arm twisting to pick off needed votes will be much easier to carry out because the end zone is right there.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
The pathway for the camel's nose to enter the tent is becoming clearer
civil truth (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 2:17AM EST (link)Looks like they’re going with health coops and taxes on insurance companies in the Senate.
Time Running Out for Bipartisan Health Compromise: Group of six Finance Committee senators considering a new proposal that might be the last, best hope for an overhaul agreement
So we’re seeing the first reverse – in the hope of pulling Republican defenders out of position. If our key defenders in the Senate bite, we’re in big trouble.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
This is exactly what I was thinking...
Mario (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 3:18AM EST (link)except I don’t think the final bill out of conference will include the public option (very likely the trigger, although co-ops have an outside chance). Both Houses have to vote on the reconciled bill to pass it; the House, at that point, can credibly argue that they passed a public option even if they vote for a final bill that doesn’t include it. The Senate, on the other hand, can’t argue that they voted against a public option if they end up voting for it anyway.
Obama’s bill will include the public option, which will be voted down in the Senate (in a vote that will allow the radical Dems to claim they tried their best) under an amendment that will replace it with a trigger, so that the public option only takes effect once sitting Congressmen can deny responsibility. The trigger will be left in through the reconciliation, much to the “dismay” of House Dems (I’m taking bets that Pelosi uses that exact word). Everyone will call it a compromise, the media will play along, and the public option will be triggered in by the 2012 elections.
the "trigger" approach - we're dead if Snowe falls for it
bk (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 6:42AM EST (link)How about this idea? As situations change, you address updating the laws. Isn’t that how it works for everything else?
I agree, but I hardly care if the public option is in or not...
clowngirl (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:29AM EST (link)what’s the real difference between having a public option for insurance and having Obama telling “private” insurance companies who they can cover and what plans they will offer while an individual mandate forces citizens to buy it?
I’m hoping the liberals will fixate so strongly on a public option (with no trigger) that the bill falls apart. It’s strange to think MoveOn and HuffPo might actually be our allies in this – in a way.
Here's the real difference with the public option, clowngirl
civil truth (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:49AM EST (link)1) Government mandates on private businesses can be amended by a future Congress
2 )You can still have competition so long as everyone is playing on a flat plaiying field.
Certainly the government mandae will hobble the players and lead to more inefficiencies and higher costs – sort of like watching a swim race when the competitors have to wear 20lb weights on their back. And of course, if things go on long enough, the swimmers may get too tired and drown. But at least there’s time to get a new Congress in to change the rules and get these weights removed.
Conversely, the public option puts the government in the position of being both the rule setter and one of the competitors. Which means
1) The government can tilt the playing field (i.e. rules) to their favor.
2) The government with its deep pockets (filled with an endless supply of taxpayer money) can outlast its competitors who are forced into an unprofitable business by the rigged rules (see #1).
And as Francis pointed out some months back, we’re not just talking about operating costs, the government guarantee also raises the cost of capital for the private competitors because investors will need incentive in return for the increased risk of the guarantee return on public option capital.
The bottom line is that the public option will inexorably wipe out private competitors because once you start a government program, its stakeholders iwll make it virtually impossible to end it (c.f. New Deal), Whereas burdensome regulation can be reversed by later legislation if we can take back Congress before the patient dies.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
I see. Hadn't realized the damage might be reversible w/out the public option.
clowngirl (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 12:14PM EST (link)That is important indeed.
Health Care Reform & Polling
publiussteve Tuesday, September 8th at 1:48AM EST (link)Good analysis. Even if Obama carefully, temporarily, backtracks on the public option, I doubt this will (or hope it won’t) convince many Repubics to go along with his scheme.
Speaking of polls and the the politics of health care reform, Rasmussen just released another poll that shows how Obama & the elite Democrats (who don’t want enforcement mechanisms to check for citizenship) are woefully out of touch:
“Eighty-three percent (83%) of voters nationwide say that people should be required to prove they are a citizen of the United States before receiving government health care subsidies. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 12% disagree and five percent (5%) are not sure.
The desire to limit the benefits to U.S. citizens is found across demographic and partisan lines. It is held by 95% of Republicans, 70% of Democrats and 87% of those not affiliated with either major party.”
And don’t forget that in June Rasmussen found that 80% “were opposed to providing health care benefits to illegal immigrants.”
This is the epitome of the rope-a-dope
itsallverbatim (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 2:25AM EST (link)Feint. Strategic misdirection. All of the above.
They’re going to try and split it into two.
The devastating political decline
Dan Perrin (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 3:14AM EST (link)is what is going to convince the Congress to slow roll ObamaCare.
It is not in their political interest to pass it.
And the left will never agree with what Senate Finance writes up, they simply will not.
The Left's reaction
wannie Tuesday, September 8th at 5:10AM EST (link)Stirring speech on Progressive causes — to a nearly empty room. (Watch at 2:34 of the clip.) Lefties need to get a clue: you can control the mike, but you can’t make people listen.
I broke out laughing when I took your advice and watched
Jack_Savage (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:29AM EST (link)Seems like they, ummmm, expected MORE…..
lol "The Clean Air Bill will be gutted even further..."
blooch Tuesday, September 8th at 10:49AM EST (link)How do you gut something even further? Gutted means gutless. Dude needs to move on to “killed even deader”.
Although, to be fair, that room could be gutted just a weeee bit further.
“Lieutenant Dike wasn’t a bad leader because he made bad decisions. He was a bad leader because he made no decisions.”
Were those really
baserunr (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 2:36PM EST (link)people in the room, or were they mannequins? All I could think of was tilting at windmills…
“The day you think you know it all is the day your trouble starts.”
Stand or be Hanged
spinoneone Tuesday, September 8th at 5:18AM EST (link)The GOP in both the House and Senate have a choice: stand together against this or any other healthcare bill in any guise or give the Dems irreversible control of the healthcare industry. The nation cannot afford either the direct or indirect costs of this effort. I’m no great fan of the insurance industry, but its destruction is not the way to go. Kill Obamacare now; try something next year if you must.
The best part of the video
Deskpilot (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 5:36AM EST (link)was the wide shot of the audience. It bears a striking resemblance to Keith Olbermann’s audience size.
At least Mike Caslte’s HC TH audience on 8/27 was engaged, interested, and got quality feedback BOTH WAYS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFjeRo3oHsM
Deskpilot engages Castle @ 44:40.
Generally speaking, we didn’t focus on anything BUT healthcare, but people with whom I spoke with afterwards were very aware of his Cap and Tax vote.
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can still read it in English, You’re Welcome
Deskpilot, AM(H)1 (AW), USN (Ret)
Join the RedState Strike Force
Groupthink and "Is that like, we have to spend $1 trillion to save money?"
bk (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 6:47AM EST (link)That seems to really sum up how the Democratic Party operates.
Some huge new spending/entitlement that blows the deficit further out of the park is called an “investment” and not “some huge new spending/entitlement that blows the deficit further out of the park”.
On the other hand, a modest tax reduction is called “increased deficit spending that we cannot afford”.
“Behind the Looking-Glass” appears to be the Dems’ favorite book.
Progressive agrees....it's Waterloo
techsan (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 7:43AM EST (link)Not that it isn’t obvious to us. Right at the end, the last lady to speak agrees on the importance of Health Care to the progressive left… “If we fail here [Health Care], then it’s gonna be the rest of this term and next term where we keep losing on progressive issues.”
In the end, all we have on our side of the debate are facts and history.
Why is that "progressive's" use the term "progressive"?
izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 7:52AM EST (link)Everything they do is “regressive”……
The socialists must always twist the language to hide there real agenda….
Like HR 3200 – America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009…
It’s not affordable and offers no choice.
Or Cap & Trade: American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009
It should be titled: America’s Expensive Energy with no security Act.
The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.
They Use "Progressive" Because
Ausonius (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 7:55AM EST (link)“Lunatic Left-Wing Baby-Killing, Grandma-Wasting Communist” sounds too negative.
Ausonius: 310-395 A.D. Teacher, Poet, Consul, General, Farmer.
Personal Tutor to the future St. Paulinus of Nola and to young Gratian, heir to the throne during the turbulent final years of the Western Roman Empire. When his former student Gratian was assassinated, Ausonius threw up his hands and retired to his farm in Gaul. Rome was captured by barbarians 14 years after his death.
Cato@rock.com
LOL @ Ausonius! nt
clowngirl (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:48AM EST (link)Focus groups didn't respond too well to that one :) nt
aesthete (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 2:15PM EST (link)The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
agreed...there aren't any new ideas
techsan (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 9:02AM EST (link)…only governments that have worked and those that haven’t. I think progressives essentially believe they can do socialism better.
In the end, all we have on our side of the debate are facts and history.
Because it is the American equivalent to 'Marxism'.
The_Gadfly (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 9:58AM EST (link)Remember, all of this flows from Hegel’s dialectic theory of history: two forces arise one moving history forward and a counter-reaction against the movement forward. The movement forward is the group “making progress” hence “progressives” move history forward, which is deemed to be a Good Thing ™. The Marxists latched onto this and bound it to the idea that they were the ones moving history forward.
I tend to focus more on the fact that “progressive” isn’t a new term, in its current context, it comes from the 1920s. And the groups that used the term then looked to Hitler and Mussolini as models for how to reshape American government. Goldberg makes this case better than I ever could (with footnotes and all) in his book Liberal Facism.
Wow Gadfly. I wonder if many "progressives" know where the term comes from. nt
clowngirl (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:35AM EST (link)Progressive was code for communist fellow traveller
Achance (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:50AM EST (link)in the thirties and forties and fell out of favor. There are about three of us left in the country who know enough history to know that so the communists are trying to revive it because “liberal” has become the kiss of death in American politics.
In Vino Veritas
Kinda sucks
aesthete (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 2:20PM EST (link)because, from a historical perspective, we’re the liberals! Using the term, “conservative” to describe us has always seemed a bit off-kilter to me. “Right-wing” is also something of a misnomer, given that it applied more to the neo-Feudalists on King Louie’s side in the French Revolution than to any idea of equality and liberty under the law.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Control the language, control the behavior.
Achance (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 9:22PM EST (link)Back in my advocacy days, my goal was always to have the decision come back using my words.
In Vino Veritas
the real question is will Obama roll Pelosi
Dan Perrin (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 9:47AM EST (link)and the 83 Democrats who signed the public option letter, or will Pelosi vote the public option out of the House?
Some of the 83 are already rolling over:
Dan Perrin (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:38AM EST (link)http://www.redstate.com/dan_perrin/2009/09/08/obamas-public-option-waffles-aim-left-roots-on-dems-and-the-white-house/
see the Rollcall quotes
Dan Perrin (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:38AM EST (link)at the end of the link above
What about Nelson and Lieberman? Any chance they'll stil defect?
clowngirl (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:45AM EST (link)I keep hearing about Snowe as though it all depends on her but can Obama even count on holding every Senate Democrat? And Lieberman? His remarks about how this is the wrong time to attempt a massive overhaul certainly sounded promising.
Any ideas on what’s motivating Snowe?
They won't defect if the Republicans break ranks first
civil truth (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:53AM EST (link)If they can get “bipartisan” cover by a few Republicans signing on, then they won’t defect. So if we want Democrats to defect and face sanctions from their leadership, the Republicans have to hold their line. Why should they stick out their neck for Republican idiots to stab them in the back.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
I don't see the Republicans joining in
Dan Perrin (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 11:04AM EST (link)there is too much of their base at HELL NO
And the House Dems are always walking the plank alone, they show no sign of not walking the plank before the Senate
If the Gang of Three give in to Baucus
civil truth (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 11:26AM EST (link)That could be the hole in the dike that blows out the whole sea wall. Once the squishes find a bipartisan fig leaf, then the center no long will hold, and we’ll end up with a stealth government take-over of the health industry.
The Marxists running the government take the long view – and unless we also take a long view, we’ll get suckered by a transient “victory” that surrenders the high ground. And that means keeping the nose of the camel out of the tent and not giving in to sweet lies.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
It's this simple
E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 12:14PM EST (link)We stop it in the House, or we don’t stop it. The squishes in the Senate will cave, just like they did over Porkulus. The Dems will throw them some scraps (which they’ll reverse in reconciliation), and they’ll fold.
Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO
Where Are The People Dying in the Streets?
Spartan4Life (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 11:42AM EST (link)What problem are we trying to solve again?
Aren’t we broke?
I’m confused…….