Lee-Jackson Day is when the Commonwealth of Virginia celebrates the birthdays of Generals Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson. It is observed on the Friday before Martin Luther King Jr. Day. General Lee’s actual birthday is January 19, 1807 and General Jackson’s is January 21, 1824. Both Generals are best known for serving the Confederacy during the American Civil War and were highly regarded as brilliant tacticians by both the Union and Confederacy.
Stonewall Jackson was wounded by friendly fire when returning to camp after the Battle of Chancellorsville on May 2, 1863. Mistaken for Union Calvary, he was shot three times — twice in the left arm and once in the right hand. As a result of his injuries, General Jackson’s left arm had to be amputated and he developed pneumonia, which eventually took his life on May 10th, 1863. General Jackson left behind his wife Mary Anna and a newborn daughter Julia.
General Jackson’s death was a turning point in the Civil War (known in the South as the “War of Northern Aggression”). General Lee could give General Jackson non-specific orders and trust him to know and accomplish his ultimate goals. Jackson, being a skilled and decisive general, worked well with General Lee and had a very successful battle record. After General Jackson’s death, other generals did not understand General Lee as well; and, as a result, he missed sudden tactical opportunities that proved to be costly to the Confederacy.
Upon learning of General Jackson’s injuries, General Lee said, “Could I have directed events, I would have chosen for the good of the country to be disabled in your stead.”
| General Robert Edward Lee | General Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson |
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God help us!


Daniel Horowitz
Neil Stevens
Steve Maley
Jake Walker
It wasn't for no reason that on or about Jan. 19
Achance (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 8:23PM EST (link)was chosen to be the MLK holiday, since it isn’t MLK’s birthday, which was Jan. 15th.
In Vino Veritas
Dang you had me worried there for a second
bk (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 8:51PM EST (link)5 (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 9:21PM EST (link)RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
?
Crippy (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 11:49AM EST (link)Who is this?
-Crippy’s World
Shiela Jackson-Leigh nt
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 11:53AM EST (link)In Vino Veritas
Thanks
Crippy (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 11:54AM EST (link)n/t
-Crippy’s World
No relation
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:00PM EST (link)It’s Shelia Jackson Lee, D-TX.
Thankfully, I do NOT live in her gerrymandered district, but a stone’s throw south and west of it.
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
thank you, happy Lee-Jackson day yourself
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 8:53PM EST (link)I am proud to be a citizen of a state that honors its heroes. We also don’t have the watered down joke of a holiday “presidents day”, we have George Washington’s Birthday as our holiday.
Molon Labe!
Lee was too kind here, and wrong if he said
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 8:55PM EST (link)“Upon learning of General Jackson’s injuries, General Lee said, “Could I have directed events, I would have chosen for the good of the country to be disabled in your stead.”
His most famous qoute was about Jackson “He has lost his left arm, I have lost my right”.
Molon Labe!
I drove through the battlefield yesterday
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 9:23PM EST (link)Just a couple of miles away is The Wilderness, and I have crouched in the Confederate trenches which remain to this day.
Trivia – where was Jackson’s arm buried?
And Crippy – from which part of the Commonwealth do you hail?
Ellwood Cemetary
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 9:33PM EST (link)orange, VA.
Molon Labe!
We have the winner
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:26PM EST (link)Exactly. So Doc, where in VA are you?
I live in one of Washington's old Farms
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:49AM EST (link)in Northern Virginia.
Molon Labe!
my sister has land that borders the wilderness
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:51AM EST (link)battlefield, I love it down there. You have Chancelorsville, Fredericksburg, and the Wilderness campain, we go out with our metal detectors.
Molon Labe!
Cool
Jack_Savage (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 8:00AM EST (link)Have you found anything? I have a friend who is a relic hunter and he recently worked a campsite. Found a fire site with a half burned log – it was put out hastily as the soldiers ran to defend Richmond. He has it in a glass case in his home.
Unfortunately
Crippy (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:31AM EST (link)I do not hail from Virginia. I’m stuck in the People’s Republic of Michigan, headed by a Canadian Marxist who will soon be one of Obama’s “ECONOMIC” advisers. Go figure, lead your state into a one state depression for 7 years with double the average un-employment rate, and you get a promotion.
God help us!
-Crippy’s World
Granholm has demonstrated a prescient vision...
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:43AM EST (link)that reminds me of the FBI guy who was so bad
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:53AM EST (link)they kept promoting him because there was too much paper work to demote him, then he sold our secrets to the USSR. after getting promoted to counter espionage.
Molon Labe!
Bless your heart
Jack_Savage (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 7:57AM EST (link)We’ll put you on the prayer list.
And tell our friends in Michigan that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Not every state gives up its traditions for PC-ness
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 9:34PM EST (link)As a kid in VA, we had a school holiday for Lee-Jackson Day every year. Later, it became “Lee-Jackson-King” Day, which is kinda unusual!
Two of my great-great-grandfathers witnessed the last meeting of Lee and Jackson, not long before Jackson was morally wounded. It was the lack of medical know-how of the day that killed Jackson. Nowadays, he’d have been out of the hospital in about two days, back in the saddle in two weeks.
Lee was one of the most honorable men ever to have lived. One has only to look at his life post-war to see that. He was also Lincoln’s first choice as commander of the Union army. If the South had had a few more factories, or some help from Europe, the history of America might have been very different. Heck, if JEB Stuart had not been out hot-dogging during the Battle of Gettysburg, things might have been quite different.
But man proposes and God disposes. What reaped what we had sown, and the reaping goes on to this day. The final outcome and legacy of the Civil War was stronger federal government, a trend that continues.
While our nation’s unity was necessary to defeat tyranny in WWI and WWII, I believe the bigger and bigger role of federal bureaucracy in our lives is something that would have horrified even the most rabid pro-Union abolitionist of Lincoln’s day. (And the lesson for us should be that there is good and bad on both sides.)
So here we are. I’m glad the Virginia, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, continues to honor men like Lee and Jackson, as well as Dr King. We could all learn a thing or two from them.
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
It is still Lee-Jackson Day in VA Friday 16th
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:02PM EST (link)King is on the 19th. That was used to insult “Confederate Heroes Day” in Texas, which was on the 19th. for the rest of your post, I quite agree. But to be clear, I doubt the biggest New England Yankee would ever have believed how our federal government has stomped on the Constitution.
Molon Labe!
Yep, the Lee-Jackson-King thing didn't fly for very long
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:09PM EST (link)The MLK people were insulted by it, and the non-MLK people agreed with them.
I’m just praying there is never a King-Jackson-Lee day in Texas! (Shelia, that is.)
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
lol, well you have a famous King too -nt
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:13PM EST (link)Molon Labe!
quick wiki check
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:09PM EST (link)shows Virginia called it Lee-Jackon-King day from 1984-200. I guess I just tried to expunge that from my memory. It is kind of like having statues of Stuart, lee, Jackson, and the tennis star Arthur Ashe on Richmond’s Monument Avenue. I mean, there is a time and a place. There of course is nothing wrong with stautues or remembrances to black men or anyone else, but nothing looks more hokey than a tennis player on Monument Avenue along with the Confederate Generals.
Molon Labe!
Were you living in Richmond when they put up the statue of Arthur Ashe?
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:16PM EST (link)I was. There was fierce debate about it. After years of not allowing more statues — such as to WWII vets — they grabbed the Rosemont corner for Ashe.
Mind you, he was a local hero. And the statue is great. I particularly like the “so great a cloud of witnesses” reference on it.
But it seems a bit out of place; many people wanted to place it near the tennis courts at Byrd Park, where Ashe discovered the game as a boy.
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
not in Richmond
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:20PM EST (link)but in VA, I remember the hullaballoo. I think the Confederate Monuments should have stood alone and other statues placed around the city, a la Washington DC. the Ashe statue was placed there based on political correctness, I know that for a fact.
Molon Labe!
Wasn't there also a hullabaloo about the Lincoln statue?
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:25PM EST (link)Whatever became of that?
more political correctness
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:32PM EST (link)funny how the US Army seems to be the least pollitically correct on this issue. they have forts named after Jackson, Hood, A.P. HIll, Bragg, Benning, Gordon, Pickett, Beuregard, Lee and Rucker off the top of my head. Seems the US Army knows when to respect people and who deserves respect.
Molon Labe!
I remember now - yes
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:35PM EST (link)Ft. Lee is undergoing a $5 billion expansion and renovation, by the way.
good to here
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:39PM EST (link)losts of military communities have been left out in the cold during realignment. From my eye, it seems the close the base is to Washington, the better chance it has.
Molon Labe!
hear not here of course -nt
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:39PM EST (link)Molon Labe!
Which is kind of ironic
baseketball (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:36AM EST (link)You’d think the army would be second only to blacks in their hatred of the confederacy.
good point
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:48AM EST (link)I think they did this to heal the old wounds and bring a nation together
Molon Labe!
Not at all
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:53AM EST (link)Most of those officers were in the US Army first. Lee was know as “Bob Lee, the handsomest man in the US Army”, and he was the one sent by the US gov’t to put down John Brown’s uprising at Harper’s Ferry.
One of the problems/ironies of that war was the respect that the officers of each side had for one another. Many had fought side by side against Mexico just a few years earlier.
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
I would imagine
baseketball (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 2:07AM EST (link)that what you’re pointing out would make it that much harder for union soldiers to forgive the confederates. It’s one thing to be attacked by people you don’t know, but to be betrayed by your brothers-in-arms, that’s something else.
You might think so
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 3:16AM EST (link)but actually, the professional soldiers had great respect for one another — not to mention tactics, strategy, and devotion to duty.
In fact, just seven weeks into his administration, Grant invited Lee to visit him at the White House, and Lee went on May 1, 1869. Neither ever revealed what they spoke about when alone, other than Lee’s prior stop in Baltimore.
It was Grant who assured the terms of surrender at Appomattox would keep the Confederate officers from being prosecuted for treason. That wasn’t a political decision but one of the battlefield commander and professional soldier, U.S. Grant.
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
Really? That sounds like Lincoln's decision
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 9:31AM EST (link)Are you sure it wasn’t Lincoln who prevented Confederate officers from prosecution for treason?
(I don’t really know, so I’m asking. I’d be surprised that a general, even one as highly reputed as Grant, would have made such a decision without consulting the president.)
Lincoln didn't live to make those decisions.
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 10:29AM EST (link)Fundamentally, all the Confederate officers were parolled prisoners of war. Grant and Sherman basically did this on their own when they accepted Lee and Johnston’s surrender on April 12 and 26, 1865. Lincoln couldn’t very well tell Grant to take back his acceptance of Lee’s surrender. Lincoln was dead by the time Sherman offered essentially the same terms to Johnson, though there was some controversy about Sherman’s terms. Other US commanders followed suit. The last CS field command to surrender was Bg.Gen. Stand Wadie’s Cherokee Brigade in May. The last surrender of CS forces was the surrender of the CSS Shenandoah at Liverpool, England in October or November of ’65.
Throughout the War, the practice of both armies had been to parole and exchange POWs rather than incarcerate them. With Grant’s assumption of command and the Overland Campaign of ’64, a part of the “bloody arithmetic” was that the US refused to exchange prisoners because of the belief that the US was better able to withstand the losses than was the CS. Consequently, the CS POW system was overwhelmed by the huge prisoner tally of the Overland Campaign leading to the difficulties at Andersonville, Salisbury, and other CS POW facilities. And just for the record, at its worst, the casualties at Andersonville were considerable less than those at the US POW Camp at Elmire, NY.
In any event, CS troops including the officers surrendered and were given a parole document. During reconstruction, they were required to take a loyalty oath to the US to receive a pardon so that their citizenship could be restored. Officers at Colonel and above had a separate pardon process. Many CS officers and men refused to “take the oath,” hence the line in the song “Good Old Rebel,” “… and I ain’t asked no pardon/for anything I done.”
Jefferson Davis was incarcerated for some time but was never charged and was finally paroled. The US sought Judah Benjamin but he fled to Britain and later France and never returned to the US. The US never declared war and as a legal matter considered the War to be a particularly large riot, which made bringing treason or even war crimes charges quite a stretch. There were never treason trials in civilian courts, though there were a fair share of drumhead courts martial for what was essentially treason and there were lots of lonely hangings, see, e.g., Ambrose Bierce’s “Incident at Owl Creek.” The only formal war crimes trial was that of Captain Wirtz, the commander at Andersonville who was hung by the US. One is permitted to wonder what the military’s authority was in light of the fact that the civilian courts were functioning, Wirtz was a US citizen, and he was captured on US soil. Wirtz’ death was simply a legally sanctioned lynching by the US Army.
In Vino Veritas
there's disagreement over elmire and andersonville
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:33PM EST (link)what i’ve seen is that elmire was nearly as bad as andersonville, but not quite as bad (in terms of casualties), and certainly not significantly worse.
the hardships of the prisoners at elmire were also brought about partly in retaliation for those at andersonville.
now, to be fair, even if elmire was just short of andersonville, it was still horrendous. and any retaliation for andersonville should have been a political decision by the president rather than the decision of one commander in charge of a prison.
(to settle the question of casualties, we’d have to compare secondary sources, and then probably primary sources.)
Portals to Hell is a good survey
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:23PM EST (link)of Civil War prisons. There’s a new one out in the last three or four years that is the contemporaneous memoir along with some very good contemporaneous drawings by a Union cartographer captured at The Wilderness. I think the name of it is “Eye of the Storm.” He was at Libby in Richmond then shipped to Salisbury, on to Andersonville, to Camp Lawton, a temporary holding “pen” where Andersonville prisoners were kept for a short time, and on to Savannah where though he was a prisoner, he was allowed to work in the community. It is an interesting story and a much different view than the usually breathless stuff written about Andersonville. He gives a pretty graphic account of how the urban Irish gangs held sway in the prison. What seemed to impress him most about the Confederate troops on prison duty was their incompetence, not their cruelty. Which would make sense because these garrison troops would be a combination of those too young or too old for frontline service, some detailed men who were recovering from illness or wounds and in some places State reserve troops. The PACS was in no position to spare good men for prison guard duty. My gg/grandfather, a teacher, had been detailed away from the 48th Georgia after Chancellorsville to a hospital in Tallahassee, FL. I have a lot of his letters as he’s telling his wife about how he’s trying to keep his detail rather than go back to the unit in Virginia. He was unsuccessful and the unit saw action at the Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, and in the works before Petersburg. He was KIA in Mahone’s counterattack at The Crater. He had been in since the Georgia muster of 4 Mar 62. Before I learned the details of his service I had wondered how an experienced NCO had managed to get killed in a battle with so few CS casualties. As it turned out, he had been detailed out so much that the only combat he had seen since the Seven Days, in which he was wounded, had been at Chancellorsville, so he was hardly a seasoned veteran and probably just stuck his head up at the wrong time.
One thing that must be considered about the Union death rates in ’64 is that relatively few Army of the Potomac troops were hardened combat veterans accustomed to camp life. It cost Grant a thousand casualties per mile to go the 125 miles from the Rappahannock to the James. Many of the troops captured were raw recruits, many of them new immigrants, or men who had been on garrison duty in Washington and elswhere. Getting in the heavy artillery units around Washington was the plum assignment since there was little to do and one had the amenities of Washington available. Grant pulled almost all the artillery troops out of Washington and put them in the infantry where they were killed or captured in droves.
In Vino Veritas
the Wirtz case
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:46PM EST (link)i do not think – contrary to what the supreme court said in the late 1860′s Ex Parte Milligan – that a citizen taken on american soil automatically has the right to trial in a civilian court if the civilian courts are functioning. it seems to me that if a citizen’s acts are against the military, military jurisdiction might be appropriate.
also, in milligan, the alleged crimes were committed in indiana, a union state, but in wirtz, the crimes occurred in a state engaging in insurrection.
now, if the military did not follow its normal processes during the trial, that would be a different situation. but just because he was tried by the military wouldn’t make it illegal under the constitution.
(and now i brace myself for vehement disagreement….)
The formal US position was that the CSA
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:34PM EST (link)did not exist. Since the CSA did not exist and was not a belligerant power, the Provisional Army of the Confederate States did not exist. Those guys over there in the gray and butternut and carrying the Enfields were not an army but rather an armed mob engaged in a particularly large riot.
The US tried to have it both ways and there was a good bit of military “justice,” but they usually sought to avoid high profile cases and keep the issue away from the federal courts. When they rounded up the Ohio Copperhead Vallandingham (sp?) they didn’t even try to put him on trial, they just took him to the Confederate lines and told him to go. ‘Course, the CSA didn’t want him either so he wound up in Canada.
In any event ex parte Milligan still informs the jurisprudence on this issue and it is the reason we’ve kept “enemy combatants” off US soil – more or less.
In Vino Veritas
yes, milligan is still the rule, but i would
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 2:43PM EST (link)prefer that the conduct of the accused be considered as a factor in determining jurisdiction. if the accused is taking military action – that is, committing an act of war rather than a crime – then i can understand permitting military jurisdiction.
interesting point about the official us position toward the csa.
Lee paced the floor all night
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:41PM EST (link)Of his home in Arlington, trying to decide what to do when Lincoln offered him the command of the army. Lee decided that he must “do what Virginia does”, and his lawn became a cemetary.
I go by the chapel at W&L at least once a year to pay my respects, and visit Stonewall’s home too. Little Sorrel is still at the museum at VMI, home of the brave Keydets at New Market, but the Presbyterian church where Jackson taught Sunday School burned not long ago. His pew was rescued for a brief time, but was destroyed when the burning steeple fell on it.
I have the same feeling with Lee's boyhood home
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:50PM EST (link)there is an aura there at night, in old Town Alexandria. I totally agree with you about lee. Anyone interested in these men before the war should read “Gone For Soldiers” by Michael Shaara. It is labled historical fiction,but the results and battles are fact. It shows how Lee, Jackson, Grant, Sherman et al fought together to win the projection of force war of that day, the The Mexican War.
As you say, Lee had a difficult decision in resigning. But he finally decided like most men of his day, that his country was his state. Lee knew the war was a mistake and likely a lost cause, but he fought it like no other could, and when others proposed they head for the hills and fight like guerillas, he said no. He kept his honor before the war, during the war, and after the war, he was a man others strive to emulate.
Molon Labe!
Well said
Jack_Savage (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 10:53PM EST (link)Indeed.
may I recommend
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 11:00PM EST (link)an interesting work of fiction, “Lincoln’s Dreams” by Connie Willis. Spoiler: it’s really about Robert E Lee.
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
Old Town, Alexandria
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 9:40AM EST (link)The aura in Old Town exists, that’s for certain, especially late at night when the signs of change are less evident and some of the old buildings are illuminated. But don’t talk to the socialist locals, raised on leftist revisionist history, or the poetry will vanish!
Out of the mainstream
Crippy (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:42AM EST (link)I know that this will sound a bit odd but I can’t help it. I’ve always been torn by the Civil War. While slavery was an odious institution, I feel that the southern states should have been allowed to succeed. The people of those stated no longer wanted to be part of the Union and preserving the Union was the primary objective of the Civil War.
-Crippy’s World
if history tells us anything, at least in Western Cutlure
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:43AM EST (link)might makes right. The Southerner’s had the right to secede and the North had the right to fight it. Just like how theColonies had the right to secede and the Brits had every right to fight that.
In the end, the victors wrote the final chapter, although we Southerner’s will never forget. I would say 90 percent of pro Confederacy people are glad the North won. It is the honor and glory we look up to, more than the cause, and we see now this enevitable war was enevitably going to put the idea of secesion to bed in the United States.
Shelby Foote said it best when he said before one would say “the United States Are” and after the war they would say “the United States is”. The war gave us the “is”. The nation we are today.
Molon Labe!
now to be clear, we are fighting for states rights
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 2:06AM EST (link)on a completely ‘nother level now. No citizen in 1865 would have dreamed that the judiciary would create law and undermine or Constitution. we that believe in the Constiution are Rebels now, whether we live in Virginia, Mississippi, California, or New York.
Similar to the Reagan Revolution, and the Gingrich Revolution, it is high time for another one.
Molon Labe!
What about the Dred Scott decision? [nt]
Martin Knight (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 6:37AM EST (link)Dred Scott was a poor decision
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:28PM EST (link)and no longer germane as the 14th Amendment rendered it moot.
I’m no constitutional scholar, but it seems common sense to me that if the Supremes say they have no jurisdiction (as they did in Dred Scot), then they ought not to go on and rule about the constitutionality of the law that would have been used if they had jurisdiction!
Justice Scalia has written that the Dred Scott decision was the first precedent for Roe v Wade — i.e. the concept of substantive due process.
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
well you see how few recoed your blog
Doc Holliday (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:46AM EST (link)all you mentioned was a state holiday, and if i may say so, a state first among states, but even here you got no mojo. Our culture is trained to disdain the Confederacy and even American Nationalism, we are taught to be citizens of the world, hence, nothing.
Molon Labe!
Disrespect for distinguished Confederates
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 9:48AM EST (link)is very largely the result of mere ignorance.
Public schools do not teach war anymore. How is anyone going to learn what great military leaders Lee, Jackson, Stuart, and others were without studying the battles, even in a very general way? And how is anyone going to learn why the average Confederate soldier fought without reading their letters? (See, for instance, if you haven’t already, the book “For Cause and Comrades”).
I think there might be a minimal level of respect – even if not such high respect as you yourself have – if we still learned about war in high school history classes.
(And it’s not just the Civil War – in about 8 years in public school, I never studied any battles except in the Revolution. There are many other problems that come out of this ignorance, too, such as a lack of interest in the military, a lack of respect for the military, an incapacity to steel ourselves for sacrifice in war and to persevere in war, an inability to judge whether a war is worth fighting, etc. etc. etc.)
It's not just war.
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 9:58AM EST (link)They don’t teach history at all really. The last of my kids were released from government internment in ’05 and I assure you that EVERYTHING they know about America other than slavery, racism, genocide, and raping resources they learned at my dinner table, not at school.
College is no better and in many schools you can get a degree with no history classes.
In Vino Veritas
That's absolutely true, Achance, but I think that
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 10:08AM EST (link)the single best thing that public schools could do would be to teach the wars. It would do many good things but also straighten out some of the things you complain about.
For example, if you study what Gen. Washington did in the French and Indian War and then in the Revolutionary War, you cannot help but have profound admiration for the man, despite what you’re taught about slavery, sexism, “classism,” etc.
Plus, we cannot expect too much from government schools nowadays (which is one reason to use vouchers and charters schools and weaken the teachers schools and unions as much as possible), So while it would be great to change a lot of the curriculum (and the teachers themselves), there’s no way we’ll be able to do it under the current system.
Heck, even I’m dreaming by suggesting that schools provide instruction about war. It would be nearly impossible to achieve it.
Having just finished Grant's Memoirs...
Steve Maley (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 11:52AM EST (link)…he had an interesting perspective that I had not heard before, re: the right of states to secede.
He did not believe in a right of secession, but that the most persuasive argument in favor of such a right of secession was in favor of the 13 original states.
States that entered the Union after that time did so subject to the existing Constitution and enjoyed the benefits of the Union.
In particular, territory that was purchased (Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma & Indian Territories, Missouri, Kansas et al as part of the Louisiana Purchase) was bought & paid for with funds from the collective U.S. Treasury.
Territory that was secured with American blood (read: Texas) could not renounce the bond to Northern states like, say, New Hampshire, or Grant’s home state of Illinois, a mere 15 years later.
As Grant pointed out, the Feds did not retain any of the large expanse of west Texas but ceded it to the State. Texas came into the Union on very favorable terms.
The blogger formerly known as ‘Vladimir’.
Grant was broke and dying
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:08PM EST (link)and spent his every waking hour working on his memoir so that it could supply something of a livelihood for his family. Best I recall Mark Twain was instrumental in arranging for its publication.
In Vino Veritas
Mark Twain not only arranged for its publication
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:23PM EST (link)but also arranged for Grant and his family to receive a much larger share of the profits than he would have received otherwise. The normal publishers were going to give him some tiny percentage that would not have come close to paying off his debts, even though the book became a best-seller. Twain saved Grant’s family from lasting poverty, rendering service to an outstanding man and to the entire country who would have been dishonored had a former president died in such such circumstances.
A fine book on the subject is by Mark Perry, “Grant and Twain: the Story of an American Friendship.”
http://www.amazon.com/Grant-Twain-Story-American-Friendship/dp/0812966139/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232213599&sr=8-2
Interesting argument by Grant, although I'm not
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:25PM EST (link)sure one can really distinguish between the obligations and rights of states entering at the time of the union’s formation and of states entering later.
I think you can easily.
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:34PM EST (link)The original 13 were independent republics each having signed the Treaty with England separately. Each separately and voluntarily entered the federal Union which did not exist until such time as nine of them joined. The rest remained independent or subject to the old Articles for some time after the first nine formed the union.
The Southern states that were formed from the territory of the original Georgia and Carolina Colonies are somewhat different. Texas has a specific right to leave the union. I think Grant is right about the rest that were form from territory accreted to the US by conquest, treaty, or purchase. I’ve had this discussion with some of my independence minded acquaitances here; Alaska was never a sovereign and to the extent that it has soverengnty today, it is a creature of the Statehood Act. You can’t get it through their heads that were they to renouce statehood, the result isn’t independence, it is going back to being a territory, a military district, or just property owned by the US.
In Vino Veritas
The people entered the union, not the states,
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:00PM EST (link)and once they entered, they could retain no right to leave, even if they attempted to reserve such a right expressly (a right which does not exist cannot be reserved). The only right that the people retain – and again, it is the people’s right, not the states – is the natural right of revolution. But this right does not flow from the political compact.
But I am merely paraphrasing Lincoln, who said:
“The Union is older than any of the States, and in fact, it created them as States. The Declaration of Independence transformed the ‘United Colonies’ into the United States; without this union then, there would never have been any ‘free and independent states.’ Having never been States, either in substance, or in name, outside the Union, whence this magical omnipotence of ‘States rights’ asserting a claim of power to lawfully destroy the Union itself? Perpetuity was the fundamental law of all national governments. No government ever had provision in its organic law for its own termination. No state, upon its own mere motion, can lawfully get out of the Union. They can only do so against law, and by revolution.”
Military power trumped the rule of law
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:30PM EST (link)From a constitutional perspective, it seems to me that the whole Civil War sprang from two logical issues left open by the founders: (1) how to reconcile slavery with “all men are created equal” (you can’t), and (2) the definition of country.
Bill Thayer, in his forward to Douglas Southall Freeman’s excellent biography of Lee, wrote, “As an American constitutional problem, that question remains unsolved: solution by arms is hardly testimony to the rule of law. Thus the War between the States was a disaster for America, for all the obvious reasons, but also, not least, because it created a very dangerous precedent: had I lived at the time, I would fervently have wished that Lee’s honor might have found any other way out of its dilemma. Lee’s tragedy, and ours as Americans, was that he held firmly and correctly to Duty, Honor, Country — when ‘Country’. through a failure of the framers of our Constitution, had not been defined.”
While the war was sold as anti-slavery in the North, in the South it was state’s rights, including the right to pick up your marbles and go home.
Lee’s own views, formulated during the war, were as follows: “While I have considered the preservation of the constitutional power of the General Government to be the foundation of our peace and safety at home and abroad, I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved in the states and to the people, [is] not only essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it as the chief source of stability to our present system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it.”
However, he went on to say, “But I will not weary you with this unprofitable discussion. Unprofitable because the judgment of reason has been displaced by the arbitrament of war, waged for the purpose as avowed of maintaining the union of the states.”
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
WOW!!!
Crippy (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:44PM EST (link)“consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it.””
How prescient!
-Crippy’s World
and i agree with lee
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 2:05PM EST (link)except insofar as he meant that the “rights and authority reserved in the states” included the right of secession.
apart from that, he was summarizing what was a common view of many of the framers of the constitution and of probably all of those who refused to support the proposed constitution.
and here's the link for the full speech by lincoln
icbm (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:01PM EST (link)http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1861lincoln-special.html
I don't know that LA ever had Lee-Jackson Day
bk (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 3:40AM EST (link)but New Orleans does have Lee Circle and Jackson Square.
bk, I'd be willing to bet that LA had
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 10:36AM EST (link)a Confederate Memorial Day and probably still has it on the books. April 26th was the common date for it. That was the day, April 26, 1865, that Johnson surrendered to Sherman, ending the war between large, organized forces though local hostilities continued for many years.
In Vino Veritas
Uhhh, bk, the Jackson on the horse is Andrew, not Stonewall.
Steve Maley (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:47PM EST (link)Although Jeff Davis Blvd is still a prominent Mid-City thoroughfare. Wonder how long that’s going to last. (Another Mid-City artery is Banks Ave, presumably named for the commander of the occupying Union garrison, Gen. Banks.)
On Jeff Davis Blvd @ Tulane Ave. (IIRC) stands a bust of Confederate Gen. Albert Pike, also known as a prominent leader of Scottish Rite Freemasonry.
Favorite son Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard is memorialized by a statue at the front entrance to City Park.
The blogger formerly known as ‘Vladimir’.
oops my bad
bk (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 2:05PM EST (link)The "Georgia 300" railroad car that BHO
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 2:22PM EST (link)is using was built as the “General Pike” for the Southern Railway in 1930. Probably for the “Cresent Limited,’ the SR’s flagship train from NO to ATL to DC with thru cars to NYC. It was an all-Pullman train and the cars were all named for Confederate generals.
The Cresent in those days was pulled by beautiful green and gold Pacific-type steam locomotives, sometimes by two of them. All the cars were two-tone green the darker shade which was called Virginia Green. All were specifically painted and lettered for the Crescen Limited.
The Southern was one of the last to give its passenger service up and maintained the Southern Cresent until the end with Pullman sleeping car service from NO to NYC I took it from ATL to NYC many times in the early ’70s. Even in those waning days it was still real linen, real silver, real flowers on the dining table, crystal glasses in the club car and a whole lot of “Yes sir, no sir, and May I help you sir” Sure beat getting up at four in the morning and riding in a noisy, crowded aluminum tube. You caught the Crescent at Brookwood Station between downtown and Buckhead at about 5 pm. You go to NYC before noon and you could just have the Red Cap take your luggage through the tunnel from Penn Station to the old Statler Hilton of PA-6-5000 fame. (It’s a Glenn Miller song, if you’re too young.)
In Vino Veritas
To the great Robert E. Lee...
Ned Reck (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 9:43PM EST (link)Who said…
“Duty… is the most sublime word… in the English language.”
It is sad, but in today’s society… there are so few who understand the true meaning of “duty”.
Ned Reck
On the plains of “Hesitation”… lie the blackened bones of
countless millions… who… at the dawn of victory…
sat down to rest… and while resting….. DIED.
~ Anonymous
and honor
Doc Holliday (Diary) Friday, January 16th at 9:55PM EST (link)my three heroes are Lee, Washington,and Churchill. I am quite aware this list is not particularly unusual, but there is a reason why these men always come to the top. I have read hundreds of bios, and these three are who move me the most.
Lee will always have a special relationship with me. He had a failing or two, but not many,unlike myself. But he was always the epitome of Duty, Honor, Country. A Great man? yes he was.
Molon Labe!
For what it's worth
Crippy (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:44AM EST (link)I have always been partial to Jackson, Reagan, and Grover Cleveland.
-Crippy’s World
Gosh...
Ned Reck (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 4:46AM EST (link)I know all you folks don’t care… but not honoring Robert E. Lee… for all the good, conservative things he stood for… is like… not honoring… the GREAT RONALDUS MAGNUS…..
Maybe you folks don’t see it… the goodness in defending one’s backyard against invaders. But it’s comin’.
Lee understood that 99% of the southern folks… did not own slaves (hell… they could not afford them… for crying out loud!). However… the War of Northern Agression was… eventually… made out to be another misdirected media scam. And back then…. most everybody SUCKED IT UP LIKE CARP ON A DOUGHBALL.
It was STATE’S RIGHTS… UNFAIR TARIFFS… AND BACKYARDS DEFENCE. For the fighting participants… “slaves” were not a major factor.
For instance… I had 22 ancestral participants… and none owned slaves. Huh?
Ned Reck
On the plains of “Hesitation”… lie the blackened bones of
countless millions… who… at the dawn of victory…
sat down to rest… and while resting….. DIED.
~ Anonymous
We are a band of brothers/
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 10:57AM EST (link)Native to the soil/
Fighting for the property/
We earned by honest toil/
Hurrah, Hurrah/
For Southern Rights Hurrah/
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag/
That wears a single star.
‘
Bonnie Blue Flag was a far more common “anthem” of the CSA than was Dixie, which was actually popular in both the North and South. And we know what property they were talking about. Interestingly, in the movie version of Gods and Generals when the group sings Bonnie Blue Flag, they changed the word “property” to “liberty.”
That said, I believe that slavery lead to secession, but not to war. The US would not have gone to war over slavery and may well have not gone to war over the secession of the seven lower South states. The attack on Ft. Sumter and the refusal of the Upper South states to provide troops followed by their secession led to war.
And for the record, about 85% of the troops in the CS Army did not own slaves.
In Vino Veritas
Absoutely
Jack_Savage (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 12:20PM EST (link)As a matter of fact, when Lincoln came to Richmond he asked the band to strike up “Dixie”, and said “I always thought it a pretty good tune.”
The Confederacy had universal conscription. nt
Steve Maley (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 11:59AM EST (link)The blogger formerly known as ‘Vladimir’.
Recommended for the discussion it provoked
Vegas_Rick (Diary) Saturday, January 17th at 1:00PM EST (link)I’m not much of a history buff, so I learned a lot reading this thread.
“God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.”- Billy Currington
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.