[promoted from the diaries by streiff]
In what may well be remembered as the high-water mark of the projection of American power and prestige, it was at Midnight on February 28, 1991 that President George H.W. Bush announced the suspension of combat operations, and an end of Operation Desert Storm. Gulf War One had come to a close.
This Sunday marks the 20th anniversary of that day.
To illustrate how far into the depth of national self-loathing and doubt we have descended, I would invite you, dear reader, to imagine Barack Obama standing humbly, yet resolutely and proud, in the Well of the House of Representatives, as President George Bush the Elder did one week later, on March 7th, and announce to the nation:
…We watched over our sons and daughters with pride, watched over them with prayer. As Commander in Chief, I can report to you that our Armed Forces fought with Honor and Valor, and as President, I can report to the nation that aggression is defeated, the war is over.”
It is difficult for me to ever imagine our first Post-Constitutional, Post-American president delivering a public utterance like this; one that mentioned Pride, Prayer, Honor and Valor in the context of victory over aggression. Oh, he might use the words , in a string of vacuous, empty and platitudinous homilies, in his ever-expansive desire to redound to himself the reflected glory of the hard toil and sacrifice of others, but Barack Obama would never, ever praise the stunning efforts of our military armed forces, and the iron willed strength of our warriors that lead, arrow-straight, to victory.
“Victory”, said President Barack Obama “is not a concept I’m comfortable with”.
Oh, what a winding and dark road we’ve trod these last twenty years, that have lead us to this, the Presidency of Barack Hussein Obama.
The twenty-year journey began on August 2nd, 1990. It is interesting to note that the magnificent, common-sense approach to both energy policy and military strength under the exemplary leadership of Ronald Reagan lead (tangentially) both to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and our thunderous victory over Saddam Hussein. Because Reagan deregulated the domestic energy industry, prices for OPEC oil plummeted thoughout most of his presidency, to the point that the cost of oil on the day of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait was a little over $20 a barrel.
Throughout the early stanzas of the Iran/Iraq war, during a period of intense domestic U.S. oil price controls and industry regulation, the price of oil was trading in the $30-$50 per barrel region, and this wealth kept the Hussein Kelptocracy propped up and able to function. But, by the end of the Reagan presidency, the price dropped into the low $20′s, where it remained stuck until the end of the 1980′s.
Saddam (or, as George H.W. Bush pronounced it, “Sad-em”), bereft of his oil revenues, needed cash. He was in hock to everybody, most notably Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. So, he did what any self-respecting bully would do: He attacked his neighbors to whom he owned the most money in the summer of 1990.
The conventional wisdom at the time was that Sad-em wouldn’t stop in Kuwait, and would turn left, and pounce on Saudi Arabia. At the time King Fahd supplied about 35% of our imported oil. So, under the leadership of the elder Bush, a massive coalition military force, consisting at it’s height of nearly one-million men, was assembled as a defensive shield in the sands of Araby.
After the usual multi-national United Nations hi-jinx, in which the Arab beligerents insisted on linking the Iraqi-Kuwaiti question to the age-old whipping boy Israel (huh?), along with the last dying gasps of Gorbachev’s USSR as it tried desperately to remain relevant, the air campaign began in earnest on January 16th, 1991. By February 28th, after a one-hundred hour ground offensive, the war was over. Saddam was driven out of Kuwait. On the streets of Kuwait City, there were riotous celebrations, with the celebrants chanting “George Boosh! George Boosh!” In these scenes alone were the stock footage for the victorious re-election campaign for President Bush, that was certain to be waged in only eighteen months.
Somewhere along the way, though, a small recession intervened (in which unemployment jumped to –gasp– 6.8 percent), a heretofore unknown and insignificant southern Governor name Bill Clinton intervened in these plans, calling it “the worst economy in 50 years”. The rest, they say, is history.
But what of this history?
What IF we’d never bothered to check the gates of Fahd’s kingdom, and thus allowed Saddam to have his way with the Saudi Arabian oil fields? This, at the very least, would have cut off the source of immense wealth that was just beginning to pour into the radicalized Wahhabist movement, and would have likely killed it in the cradle.
Also, it wouldn’t have given the anti-Western fig-leaf to the likes of Osama bin Laden; remember, his only brief with the US was (again, supposedly) our parking of our AWACS and our F-16′s on Saudi Holy Ground, and allowing our female military to prance around without burkas. Such was the hatred-germ in the fevered mind of Mr. bin Laden.
Would a Saddam-controlled Saudi Arabia been better, or worse, for American interests in the world? Looking through the long lens of twenty years, who’s to say? We never would have wound up fighting a second Gulf War, bin Laden would be just some unknown Middle-eastern trust-funder trying to figure out how to keep his garments so sparkling white in his filthy cave. There would have been no 9/11. There would have been no Howard Dean. And thus, there would have been no Barack Obama.
Also, I think it is unlikely we would have witnessed the explosive growth of radicalized political Islam. Yes, a wealthy and powerful Saddam Hussein would have offered his own set of special and horrendous difficulties and trials, but don’t forget: One of his proposals for backing out of Kuwait was his insistence that other nations should leave other occupied areas (a direct, and intentional, insult to Israel) including Syria’s removal from Lebanon . It is hard to imagine a middle-eastern dictator with even a tiny smidgen of realpolitik pragmatism, but, there it is. My, how things have changed…
Now we have a Mid East hurling headlong into the 9th century, and any of that age-old and thread-bare “stability” is gone with the wind. Which brings us back to where we are today: February 28th, 2011.
The only reason any of this is germane is because we categorically, and generationally, refuse to get our domestic energy policy in order. We insist that third-world basket-case nations shoulder the burden of our energy exploration, extraction and refining demands. Thus, we send our valorous Armed Forces hither and yon to protect oil fields. We have, up to this point, been rich enough to pay others to put up with this dirty business or energy extraction. But, this house of cards is crashing down around our ears.
We went to King Fahd’s defense only because the stable and predictable supply of world wide petroleum was in our best national interests. If all the man had in his backyard was sand, we wouldn’t have lifted a finger (-as well we shouldn’t. Oil is a vital national resource. Sand is not.) Or, conversely, we wouldn’t have lifted a finger to defend the Saudi Royal Family if we had all the oil and coal and natural gas and oil shale and nuclear power we needed right here in the United States for the next ten generations, thank you. Deal with Saddam yourself, Mr. Fahd.
In the mid-1940′s, we departed down the path of overt obsequiousness to the Soviet game-plan of world-wide communist domination. This lead to a 50-year arms race that created a Total-State in America with which we are still dealing, and for which we are still paying. It also, not unimportantly, nearly wiped out civilization on a number of occasions during that time. We can thank the left for this.
Similarly, we are today well down the path of overt obsequiousness to radical environmentalism, and our inability to show these people the door in our public policy discourse. There simply is no room for their radical ideology, and their false science, in a world where far too much of our energy comes from places it shouldn’t,–when we can obtain all the energy we need right here at home.
Twenty years ago tomorrow marks the anniversary of one of the most stunning victories ever achieved by the Armed Forces of the United States (or any nation, as far as that goes). As George Herbert Walker Bush so beautifully and movingly observed at the time, they did so with great honor, and with great valor. Their sacrifice and power stands to this day as an exemplary light to our nation.
The sad fact is, though, we usually extend these military risks only as a response to great folly on the part of the political Left, in tandem with the inability of the Right to stand against it. If we’d stood up with Whittaker Chambers and insisted that our most valuable atomic secrets were already in the hands of the Soviets, perhaps things would have been different in 20th century America. Perhaps if we’d stood four-square against the Jane Fondas and Robert F. Kennedy Jrs, and insisted on a rational energy policy in this nation, we wouldn’t have run afoul of Saddam Hussein and his oil-lust on the Arabian peninsula twenty years ago.
This is a lesson we still have time to learn. But just barely. Learning this lesson NOW, TODAY would be a fine and fitting tribute to those magnificent warriors I recall here tonight, twenty years on. It is a lesson, once learned, will help insure we don’t have to fight another war like theirs.

Victoria Coates
Daniel Horowitz
Thanks for the Memories
Robin Smith (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 9:28AM EST (link)To the author, thank you. Your thoughtful expression is recognized and appreciated.
My husband & I had just been given our first child just 12 days prior to the end of this war. The mixture of joy, concern all embedded in prayer mark our memories.
Winston Chuchill was accurate in stating, “History is written by the victors.” It’s crushing to know that our nation currently stands in the posture giving away the right to pen a written history of prosperity, goodness and decency. Instead, we are led by a growing populous that seeks to “equalize” all, to the point of losing our greatness.
Thanks for the memories.
Robin Smith (robints)
Truly a tour de force 'mudgeon and the US armed forces were brilliant, BUT Bush 41, Truman in Korea, failed
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 9:55AM EST (link)to finish the job and sent a paper tiger message to the Middle East that Osama bin Laden received loud and clear. Americans were seen as not willing to bloody their hands and also didn’t even have the stomach to finish off a fleeing army. Bush 41 struck a king but didn’t kill him and then let him jerk us around for a decade. It took Bush 43 to finish the job,and just when American resolve and deterrence had been re-established, the Dem Party nominates a weakling.
more later
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Thank you so much for the kind sentiments.
conservativecurmudgeon (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 6:03PM EST (link)…and I agree in large measure with your conclusions.
Maybe in a week or two we'll see a similar photo
throwback59 Sunday, February 27th at 9:55AM EST (link)out of Wisconsin, with Governor Walker in the role of General Schwarzkopf.
So you agree with our detractors?
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 10:19AM EST (link)That we only drove them back out of Kuwait because of oil?
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
NT, please let me interject on a tangential point. I am not disagreeing with your question, but I have always
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 10:46AM EST (link)thought that when we get asked about “just for oil” that we should not accept the premise of the question that denigrates how important is oil to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Oil made the modern world in many ways, not the least of which is that it fuels a superior US military that is singularly responsible for there being any freedom on Earth.
I love oil so much I may make it my third wife!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I agree, GC.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:09AM EST (link)But we all know that enough oil is available from friendly sources such that if oil was the only reason to get involved there we wouldn’t have to.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
yes, but we couldn't have Saddam running rampant. Now, had we not been restricting areas
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:23AM EST (link)of oil exploration in the US since 1978 and had more supply before Saddam invaded Kuwait, maybe we would not have gone to war. I’m pretty sure that I would have been for going anyway given the effect of such megalomania on the world supply for such a commodity and given the good overall for our security to deter such brazen invasions, but then …I’m a proud neo-con!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
There's no doubt oil was a major factor.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:26AM EST (link)But it wasn’t the only one, and people that insist that it is have a completely different agenda than conservatives and Republicans do.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
and btw Twister, I'm halfway thru Calvin's
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:24AM EST (link)Institutes and will soon be able to wax on Reformed…smile
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Nice!...nt.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:27AM EST (link)The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Actually Dr DeVine does have the Institutes, but do you remember my
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:48AM EST (link)column on Calvin on his 500th birthday?
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
last GC threadjack - American exceptionalism predestined by John Calvin's birth 502 years ago L
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:56AM EST (link)http://www.examiner.com/law-politics-in-atlanta/american-exceptionalism-predestined-by-john-calvin-s-birth-500-years-ago
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Let's hope oil was the reason
Getting_Back_to_Basics Sunday, February 27th at 2:21PM EST (link)There wasn’t a lot of other reasons for the intervention than to protect our economic national interests. Intervening to promote “democracy” is nonesense and has been nonesense since Wilson first proclaimed that a reason for war. Protecting the national interests, including economic ones, is a legitimate reason for military action. The unfortunate aspect of intervening due to oil is that we would need to do that because we have not prepared enough to be sufficient without foreign oil supplies. Perhaps we will get there someday if there is enough drilling, or use of alternative fuels and energy, but right now that’s not the case.
The U.S. has promoted democracy since its inception.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:25PM EST (link)I get that some people don’t like that, but it doesn’t give license to rewrite history.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
No rewriting of history needed
Getting_Back_to_Basics Sunday, February 27th at 2:43PM EST (link)I am all for a country which wants to have a democratic form of government if that’s what it wants, but I don’t believe it should be either a primary goal of our foreign policy or something that the U.S. helps establish by military force (or manipulation through foreign aid). What is most important is that a government be just. A just government does not require democracy, let alone the extreme version of democracy by which the minority is sufficated by a vote of half-plus-one.
I don’t believe it is accurate to say that the U.S. has advocated democracy from its inception. It is not clear that the founders thought of the U.S. as a democracy as we currently think of “democracy.” They thought of the federal government as a republic and the individual States as various forms of republics. Certainly the tensions within the federal government over whether to support the French Revolution were indicators that early on the founders were divided over what U.S. independence meant and what type of governmental reforms were acceptable and which weren’t. Thankfully the U.S. did not officially endorse the blood-thirsty French revolutionaries trying to impose “democracy.”
Furthermore, the very fact that the U.S. had districts and territories throughout its history in which residents were not allowed to vote over their governance is yet further indication that democracy is a slippery term. I would rather the U.S. care more about supporting and promoting just governments than utopian democracies,
Their actions speak for themselves...nt.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:25PM EST (link)The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Not "Only", but "Mostly". I don't think this is questionable.
conservativecurmudgeon (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 4:13PM EST (link)And the other reasons, to my view, are rather damply weak:
1) To give sinew and bone to the spineless and anti-Semitic United Nations.
2) To protect our friends in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.
3) To uphold the rule of international law, such as it is.
There have been other examples during the life of the UN where the same paradigms existed elsewhere, and we felt less than motivated to come to the aid of those under siege. Clearly, by virtue of the definitions created by the leftist statists of our vital national interests, such as the world-wide oil market being in the hands of third-world tin-horns, we were necessarily obliged to lend a hand in Kuwait.
And, there is no shame in this, either. There is, in fact, great honor.
Other factors must include our own national interests.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:49PM EST (link)Which easily explains why we get involved in some areas and not others.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
I remember it well...
Charles Cianfrocca (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 10:24AM EST (link)We were 1/2 hour from Baghdad when Bush announced the suspension of combat operations. As soon as the cheering died down, the same thought seemed to occur to all of us at the same time… we could have Saddam in 30 minutes… should we just make like we didn’t get the word? Just for an hour?
No, we didn’t *seriously* consider it. But you couldn’t blame us for thinking about it for a moment.
“Get your hand out of my pocket. Ain’t nothin’ there that belongs to you.”
- Sonny Boy Williamson
Bush 41 was too thrilled with the coalition. We let Syria set the limits of our foreign policy - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 10:43AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Bush failed
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 10:56AM EST (link)we have not won a war since ww2. Yes there are always excuses, always reasons why we quit. Some say our ‘allies” like the Syrians would not allow us to topple Hussein. Others say when Bush saw the reports of the “Highway of Death” he lost his nerve.
I have studied war all my life and I have served. But it is the study of war that really clarified things. The ONLY way to win a war is to apply such force on the enemy that he loses his will to fight. In the Gulf War we left Saddam’s regime intact and we allowed thousands to be murdered when they rose against him. Our men were told by politicos to stand down, many just watched the slaughter.
The Civil War was 4 years. Our involvement in WW2 was 4 years. Now we have been in Afghanistan for 10 years, and what has it got us? I don’t know if America has the stomach to win a war again. I don’t know if we are made of the same mettle as our forefathers. You can blame politicos, you can blame a populace that cares more about what Oprah says, but we have not won a war in 66 years.
Molon Labe!
I disagree.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:10AM EST (link)See Iraq. We won.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
you have to be kidding NightTwister
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:14AM EST (link)We had to go back to Irag a decade later to finish the job. We spent billions going back when we were already there before. and how many civilians died in the meantime? No, Iraq was a modern victory, just like we are a modern society with Obama in charge. I stand by myy statement, I know what wins wars, and I described it already.
Molon Labe!
There was no charter to "finish" the first time.
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:21AM EST (link)We did what we went there to do, and that was get Saddam out of Kuwait. That you wanted more done is your problem.
The second time there was a charter to win, and we won.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
no, it is your problem Nightwister
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:28AM EST (link)We were certainly the only superpower at the time. You think a “charter” should have stopped us? All we did is chase a snake from the garden instead of killing the snake. We spent billions to go back later. Iraq was not about 9/11, it was about finishing a job that was not finished. Tens of thousands of Iraqis died at the end of the Gulf War because they thought we would back them up. To this day we don’t have their trust.
Don’t tell me my business sir, I said there is only one way to win a war and I am right. You have to apply enough pressure on the enemy that he loses his will to fight. Sure the Iraqis signed a treaty they later blew off to save their asses. The next day they started killing their own people that tried to rise up.
I respect the diarist here, he is trying to make a point comparing Bush to Obama, I get that. But don’t get up in my grill son, I am not backing down from the truth.
Molon Labe!
You don't get to hide behind the UN
NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:33AM EST (link)and then toss it to the side later.
Either go in with whatever charter you want, especially if you have the ability to back it up, or stick to the charter you use (e.g. UN) to get there. Either way is fine with me.
Maybe you should cut back on the coffee. I’m not your son, having been (1) in the military, and (2) old enough to have now been alive in seven decades.
Lastly, I can tell you whatever I want. This is a discussion board. I know you think your opinion is the only one that matters, but it just ain’t so.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
no I do not think that Night Twister
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:19PM EST (link)you should know that by now. It is just I am very confident that my theory of war is correct and has been proven over a few thousand years of history. I rarely if even am so cocksure, I think others that know me would agree. I am open to debate, but there are some truths that just are. The truths I proffer will only help us in the future, I am not about patting backs when we are talking blood.
again, I mean no offense to you or others, it is just I am so sure about this one subject. You should know that.
Molon Labe!
amen NT, we won the Iraq War. Never has so much security been achieved and so many liberated from
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:30AM EST (link)such a brutal dictator with such a low loss of life and limb. Iraq has had numerous election cycles and have not elected majorities of extremists. They helped us kill tens of thousands of trained terrorists that would otherwise have been getting tickets to the US to wage war. We eliminated a major sponsor of terror, a terror state and one that committed acts of terror on its own. We have formed a bond with the Iraqi people thanks to Bush and armed forces. I could go on. Bush stayed the course and showed Iraqis we would not abandon them.. That produced the intel that made a surge possible.
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“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
cockwalski, and I do think that Iraq is a shining city on hill that Others in the region see as a third way - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:31AM EST (link)alski
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
the diary is about the Gulf War
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 12:48PM EST (link)I hope Iraq is a shining city on a hill someday, but I doubt it.
Molon Labe!
On the subject of Iraq...
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:23PM EST (link)something that hasn’t gotten a lot of play has been the protests and the “day of rage” that occurred there in conjunction with the other protests in the ME.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Yes, Iraq has one day of rage while Madison has 15 and counting...smile - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:30PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
How many people died in Madison's?
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 6:05PM EST (link)How many union protesters were shot at with live ammunition by the WI national guard? How many helicopters were deployed to deal with them? How many were beat, handcuffed, or arrested? At least 30 have died in Iraq due to protests; many more were wounded and arrested. We’ll see what happens, and comparing to Madison is absurd when Iraq’s protests are much more violent and tied to general protests in the ME.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Oh please.
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:25AM EST (link)We have not won a “war” since WWII? Define war and warfare since then. Define “winning”.
I seemed to remember “Urgent Fury” and “Just Cause” were successes to name a few? You can quibble about whether they were proper “wars”. But they were resounding successes.
And I don’t care if we went “back” to “finish” the Iraq war”. Hostilities never ceased and we did “win”. At least by the definition the US defined.
We can agree the strategy was wrong the same way we could probably agree Patton should have kept driving straight to Moscow and avoided the entire Cold War. But saying we have not won a war since WWII is a reach.
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
555 - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:32AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
wow, you are all over the place on this issue GC
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:38AM EST (link)upthread you criticize Bush for not going to far, now you give a 5 to someone who says otherwise.
Urgent Fury? Just Cause? what are we talking about here, Grenada? Capturing a drug dealer in Panama? The weak response in Bosnia, where are planes were unsupported by troops and told the flight ceiling was so high their bombs were less effective?
remember something, war is not politics. I am talking about a nation unwilling to truly win a war. I have empirical evidence on my side. Obama was elected to pull us out of Iraq and Afghanistan. He has not done that, but that is why he was elected.
Molon Labe!
I give Bush 43 the 5's and I criticize Bush 41 - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:41AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Doc, I know you didn't mean it in a bad way, but one way to keep Redstate from devolving into Lost Weekends of vitriol
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:46AM EST (link)is to discuss issues and not make the commenters the issue. Just saying. This has been one of the keys to my successful last three years here at RS after I gave up the snark 3 yrs ago.
I also try and never use smart aleck one word subject lines and try and use the word “yes”. smile
Now, I have been discussing the merits of our three different actions: The Kuwait War in 91, Afghan War in 2001-present and The Iraq war 2003-present.
I guess I would have to agree with you in a general sense that we are a softer people than when we fought WWII.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
thanks for the advice GC
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 12:07PM EST (link)I have been here over 5 years. I am being consistent here even though a few are trying to take potshots for the sake of it. I know my theory is correct, so I guess it doesn’t matter what others think. I said my piece and will move on. Even though I love history, my theory is of better use to those who plan future actions, we can argue history, but we are living in a time when war is interested in us.
Molon Labe!
Many at RS can learn a lot from your approach GC
Common_Cents (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 12:24PM EST (link)….including myself
Killin em with kindness, the Big Chicken way.
You’re right, when people start focusing on personality and self importance instead of the big picture, is when the wheels start coming off evidenced by the recent blowups.
I would also agree the job was left unfinished the first time around so I would say victory, with caveats. The problem is ultimately does America have the will? If Bush Sr. defied groupthink of the coalition at the time and went into Baghdad to finish would he have been labeled a conqueror by many, as suffered by 43? That would be a fantastic discussion of “what if”? I guess that’s the job of the President, to make the tough calls. But the bigger picture goes back to the will of Americans.
As time progresses Bush 43 will become increasingly more wise (provided that liberals aren’t the only ones writing the history books), already confirmed by Obama defying his core bedrock campaign platforms of getting out of ME, closing Guantanamo etc…that in itself is very shocking and telling.
I chuckle about how we hobby-pundits discuss this and form opinions when we don’t even know half of what is really going on! Just look at Obama’s strong campaign promises, then he wins, and after his first security briefing (“Ok, Mr. President, now let’s tell you what is really going on.”) I’m sure he had a WTF (not winning the future) moment!
Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from,
behind, the Back Nine.Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.
Cents, you and streiff have made my day and I agree with your caveats - After 15 years of courtroom
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:38PM EST (link)combat and then a year or so of too much snark, a man has to rest! smile, hence my move to corporate legal work.
I am about the business of trying to convert those that are like I was as a Dem before my 2001 conversion. I am into issues, not personalities. I admit that for about a year I did get all enamored of my self and snark as a replacement for cross-examining witnesses, but pilgrim and Erick called me out and I changed.
feels right
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Yeah, I don't think Rangers would care for your description
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:55AM EST (link)on Grenada and Panama. There was a bit more going on then capturing “drug dealers”.
Americans, as do most civilized societies, have a sincere distaste for war. Your are confusing what is otherwise a wise human reaction to the killing of fellow human beings with the determination to eliminate those who don’t care at all about the aforesaid.
How much is enough? How many do we kill? When is an enemy truly defeated? What is the definition of victory? Certainly, there are maxims and strategies we can use as a basis to fight wars, but no two are exactly the same in conditions.
You dismiss my examples and then say you have “empirical evidence” on your side? You will have to forgive me, I don’t see it. As noted we won in Grenada, Panama and, yes, Iraq. You may not like the way we got there and disagree on strategy (as I do) but we won. That is fairly irrefutable.
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
I probably know more Rangers than you do sir
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 12:04PM EST (link)I trained with them. I respect all who follow orders and go into harms way. But if you are trying to dismiss my argument about winning real wars with Grenada and Panama, I just don’t know what to say. I guess I could say touche, you got me, but my point still stands. We are still in three war, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the WOT. We as a nation have held back, we worry more about collateral damage than victory.
If people really knew history, if they knew how much collateral damage and violent folly that went on in ww2 they would be shocked. The people at the time new, some did not, but the thing was, they did not care. They were all in for victory and nothing else. Has our nation been like that since?
Molon Labe!
I call this a strawman
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 12:12PM EST (link)Your initial claim was we did not win a war since WWII. I would call that claim fallacious based on my stated explanations. We achieved our objectives in Grenada, Panama and, yes, Iraq. In my book, that is called “winning”. Period.
To use a sports analogy, you can call them “ugly wins”. But they are still wins.
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
fine, I agreed with you, touche
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 12:25PM EST (link)obviously I have no idea what I am talking about. So let’s drop it.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant
Molon Labe!
No it really isn't
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:32AM EST (link)I define victory in clear terms, those terms were consistent for a few thousand years. Those terms were there in ww1, ww2, the Civil War, the Napoleonic wars, etc. You fight a war to defeat the enemy, to make him surrender. The Gulf War did stop a madman, but the madman kept his power,something the Bush administration said he would not. Furthermore, we forced our troops to watch Saddam’s minions butcher those who thought we would support them in a revolution.
Molon Labe!
Doc, when I refer to the victory in Iraq, I am ONLY referring to the victory by BUSH 43 after 911 - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:42PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Well, we stayed in Europe and Korea for much more than 4 years and the Yankees stayed in Dixie
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:39AM EST (link)for quite a while.
Now, as to Afghanistan, I do see it as different from Iraq as per the democracy project. I favored giving the Afghans a chance, but their history and other factors have caused me to favor a smaller footprint to whack moles and prevent safe havens only.
more later
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
give the more to someone else
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:41AM EST (link)we stayed in Europe to prepare for the next war. Also, as civilians often misunderstand, we have to put our troops somewhere. They keep saying they want “all troops home”, that is a complete misunderstanding of the USA’s defense policy and ability to project force.
Molon Labe!
ok - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:59AM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Absolutely not
Getting_Back_to_Basics Sunday, February 27th at 2:30PM EST (link)There was no reason to displace Saddam in 1991 after he was pushed back and contained from spreading his mayhem into Saudi Arabia. The threat was extinguished and there was no moral or legal justification for removing a regime that was no longer a threat to the United States. It is a testament to the just apprach which the Gulf War was conducted that the U.S. stopped when it did.
Osama bin Laden said that our restraint was part of what
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:51PM EST (link)convinced him we were a paper tiger that he could defeat as we refused to finish the job and allowed Saddam to jerk us around for a decade afterwards while he OPENLY sponsored terrorists, had his agents try to assassinate Bush 41 etc. It is vital that bad actors be deterred given what a constant target we are for all evil actors. The old saying about if you strike the King you better kill him applies, since it would obviously have been easier to have done so in 1991. Failing to finish the job and subsequent history shows that he did remain a threat.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
you need to recalibrate your memory
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:39AM EST (link)The farthest penetration into Iraq was MG Barry McCaffrey’s 24th Infantry Division. It reached the outskirts of Nasiriya which is 225 miles from Baghdad. Under ideal conditions that is a week from Baghdad for a mechanized division.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
that is tactics, we have defeated Saddam's regular troops
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:57AM EST (link)His Republican Guard stayed intact, because they ran from the battle into Iraq, they knew our battle plan limits. Those same troops slaughtered tens of thousands that rose up against Saddam.
for the third time in this diary, I am not criticizing any troops, I praise them. But we stopped the war because Americans from bon bon eating house fraus to some in the Defense Department and Executive office did not want to finish the job or just forgot what it means to finish a job. The second Iraq war should be proof enough. Or maybe the time Saddam tried to kill the former president.
We could argue this back and forth forever I guess. I stated my case, my case is that Americans today have no heart to truly defeat an enemy, to truly win a war. Our soldiers are the best, but they are given rules of engagement that weaken them and strengthen the enemy. Furthermore, not since WW2 have we had strategic order to eviscerate the enemy.
Molon Labe!
Doc - re: why we stopped
Jack_Savage (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:40PM EST (link)I have a pretty clear recollection that we stopped because we had fulfilled the UN mandate, not because we did not want to finish. Bush’s mistake, in my view, was relying on the UN to give the US action in Iraq some international legitimacy. It bit us in the ass because international opinion may have turned against us had we exceeded the mandate and deposed Saddam. Our job was to get them out of Kuwait – period.
Saddam was despondent that the end was near, and was amazed that the “tanks had stopped”. Another snafu was the agreement by the generals that Saddam could continue to fly helicopters, which was all he needed to quell the uprising that followed.
that history agrees with mine Jack Savage
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:08PM EST (link)but it still does not change the theory that to truly win a war is to apply such force to the enemy that he loses the will to fight. We did go into the Gulf War with our hands tied, we have been doing that for a long time. Our nation is unusual in that we restrain ourselves as the top dog. We want to be the only super power, yet we want to be liked as well.
If one studies the British Empire or the Roman Empire, they spent little time fretting about being liked. And I must add that history post the Gulf War insinuates that we did not win many friends.
Molon Labe!
I agree with the larger point
Jack_Savage (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 6:46PM EST (link)As an American President, I would do everything in my power to avoid war, but I would make it understood that when we went, hell fire would rain down and there would be precious little left to fight over when it was all said and done.
I absolutely agree that even recently, we have gone to war with caveats and restrictions. It has cost American lives, and gained nothing.
Amen to that!
c17wife (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 10:22PM EST (link)If only they had the spine…
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
yes, avoid war if possible
Doc Holliday (Diary) Monday, February 28th at 8:25AM EST (link)and if you have to do it, make it short and violent.
Molon Labe!
and Syria, famously, played a role in limiting the UN mandate - You are only as strong
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 6:10PM EST (link)as your weakest link.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
A small quibble
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 12:06PM EST (link)I would only say “farthest penetration” in force.
There are a few guys from SFOD-D and 75/1st that may take issue
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
We were an Apache attack battalion
Charles Cianfrocca (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 1:24PM EST (link)Although top speed on an Apache is classified (well, it was when I had my exit debrief, anyway) the people in the room with me were not thinking in terms of tank speed. We may have been exaggerating just a tad, but it was *just* a tad.
“Get your hand out of my pocket. Ain’t nothin’ there that belongs to you.”
- Sonny Boy Williamson
nonsense
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 1:35PM EST (link)if you’re using that as an argument then we were in “downtown Baghdad” on the first night of the war.
If you’re using “a half hour” from Baghdad to mean Apaches that is more silliness because an Apache doesn’t fly that fast. The fastest tactical helicopter owned by the Army is the MH-47.
Even if you were correct and Apaches could fly 500mph there is no way they could have “had Saddam.” It took months to get him once we’d conquered the entire country.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Wow, you're angry.
Charles Cianfrocca (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:07PM EST (link)As to being in downtown Baghdad on the first night, sorry I didn’t take time to take pictures of the triple A for you. You can see the video of the damage assessment walkaround from the next morning if you like, though — I’ll look for the file.
Odd as it may seem, people who just won a war have been known to exaggerate by a couple factors when saying things like “give me a half-hour, and I’ll get it done.” It was not the senior brass floating the idea as an actual “Screw Bush, let’s go get the SOB” plan.
The point of the TOC consensus was, we were light, fast, and practically there — why were we stopping now?
“Get your hand out of my pocket. Ain’t nothin’ there that belongs to you.”
- Sonny Boy Williamson
I wonder what Streiff is trying to protect
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:28PM EST (link)the vociferousness speaks volumes, I just don’t know what the volumes are. Again, I am not second guessing anyone on a particular strategy per se, this has been going on a long time.
Molon Labe!
I'm trying to protect the truth
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:47PM EST (link)from a series of fantastical claims and it seems like a losing battle.
The claim was
The fact: We were never closer than 235 miles or about a week’s travel for a maneuver unit under combat conditions.
The claim: we could have Saddam in 30 minutes
The fact: Baghdad fell o/a 7 April 2003. Saddam wasn’t captured until December. The likelihood that we were with 30 minutes of capturing Saddam in the Gulf War is so small as to be dismissed out of hand.
The new revised super duper claim: I was with an Apache battalion.
The fact: Apache battalions don’t operate independently. 235 miles is more than “1/2 hour” travel in an Apache. The operational radius of an Apache is about 90-100 miles.
My point was and is we were never with 1/2 hour of Baghdad. That is just a patently false statement and an insult to anyone who was involved with the operations in Desert Storm.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Oh, now I get it --
Charles Cianfrocca (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:08PM EST (link)St. Crispin’s Day came early this year.
“Get your hand out of my pocket. Ain’t nothin’ there that belongs to you.”
- Sonny Boy Williamson
Act 4, Scene 3 - The Life of Henry the 5th.
Danielle Davis (ocleverone) (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:33PM EST (link)To me, “consensus” seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects … There are still people in my party who believe in “consensus” politics. I regard them as Quislings, as traitors … I mean it. — Margaret Thatcher
don't try to blow smoke up my butt
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:02PM EST (link)I don’t know what you did in Desert Storm or who you were with. I will tell you this. I’ll bet I’ve spent as much time under a MC1-1B canopy as you’ve spent in a chow line.
If your TOC was saying that then one really has to question the sanity of the people saying it. That certainly wasn’t the view of any division TOC because they all knew that the French and British weren’t going to do that. They all knew the Egyptian and Syrian division would be lost. They all knew the Saudis weren’t going to allow us to use their airfields in support of that goal.
What you’re pushing is some kind of a pipe dream that has developed in the intervening 20 years. It wasn’t the view of any command at any echelon at the time. It wasn’t supported by the Congress, the President, or the American people.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Well, the USAF was, anyway.
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:24PM EST (link)The infantry was trying to figure out how one makes a BBQ pit and roasts a goat in the desert.
After all, there was nothing else to do….
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
lots of truth to that
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:03PM EST (link)nt
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I would like to say, streiff...
Jack_Savage (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:43PM EST (link)…that Stormin’ Norman left the distinct impression that we could have marched into Baghdad with little problem and very quickly. As I recall, he basically said we had gotten behind them and the way was clear. I have no doubt that you are correct in that it would have taken a week to get there, but you sure would not have known it by listening to him.
I'm going to cut you some slack
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 2:54PM EST (link)because you’ve been around a long time. If you are totally unconcerned about what happened that is your problem not mine. You snarking me for something I didn’t say in defense of one of the most preposterous stories ever told on this list is very trying.
I’ll make you a deal. You find me a Schwarzkopf quote where he says he was within thirty minutes of marching into Baghdad and capturing Saddam and I’ll kiss your butt at a time and place of your choosing and give you an hour to draw a crowd. The flip side, if you can’t find one I expect you to be enough of a man to admit that you are just shooting your mouth off.
Do you really think throwing bullcrap around in the face of facts and printed history to the contrary is what this site is about?
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I do not want your pity or slack, and don't give a flying Wallenda if I get banned
Jack_Savage (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 7:13PM EST (link)My point, and my only point, was that the impression – the IMPRESSION – was given that we were very close to Baghdad. That is probably why this discussion is even taking place. I do not recall him saying we were a full week away if we hauled ass and started right then – maybe you could produce that quote, which I missed – but understood that you may know more about it than I do, thus this part of the comment:
“I have no doubt that you are correct in that it would have taken a week to get there, but you sure would not have known it by listening to him.”
I’ll tell you what, streiff. Do me a g_d_ favor, and ban me. There is not one thing I wrote that deserved the response I got, and the more I read around here the more convinced I am that my time would be better spent elsewhere. In my world, eggshells are for the disposal, not walking around on.
Everything has an end, including life itself. All the best.
While I believe streiff had the best, first hand articulation above
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:40PM EST (link)Here is the long-hand version from the man himself.
The interview is from that noted right-wing-tea-party group PBS.
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
Interesting, I saw those interviews were in 1996, 5 yr anniversary
Common_Cents (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:54PM EST (link)I wonder how the answers may have changed if they were asked the same questions today, with the additional 15 years history in the rear view mirror.
Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from,
behind, the Back Nine.Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.
thank Marcus, reposting for the click-through challenged
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 4:01PM EST (link)“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
You're welcome you angry, cantankerous, ...
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 6:44PM EST (link)cranky old ground-hugger
I am certain your in-box is filling up with apologies and mea culpa’s. So you better stop reading this and get to work.
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
For the final record, my comment of 2:40 pm today
Jack_Savage (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 7:15PM EST (link)“I have a pretty clear recollection that we stopped because we had fulfilled the UN mandate, not because we did not want to finish. Bush’s mistake, in my view, was relying on the UN to give the US action in Iraq some international legitimacy. It bit us in the ass because international opinion may have turned against us had we exceeded the mandate and deposed Saddam. Our job was to get them out of Kuwait – period.
Saddam was despondent that the end was near, and was amazed that the “tanks had stopped”. Another snafu was the agreement by the generals that Saddam could continue to fly helicopters, which was all he needed to quell the uprising that followed.”
Jack...
c17wife (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 9:08PM EST (link)if you can, get in touch with gamecock, and he in turn can get you in touch with me.
Dangit! I really hate that we can’t directly access one another anymore!
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
c17wife's valet reporting for duty. My name is Foghorn Leghorn and my email address is
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 9:38PM EST (link)mikedevinelaw@yahoo.com
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Thanks gc...
c17wife (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 9:49PM EST (link)n/t
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
What ridiculousness.
Jeff Emanuel (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:18PM EST (link)JE
I know a lot of Texans that lost their pensions
Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 11:20AM EST (link)and livelihoods with $20 oil. don’t get me wrong curmudgeon, I respect your diary and understand the comparison to the post American president. But what I speak of is even a deeper sin, I honestly don’t believe the American populace is willing to fight and win a war. I know our soldiers, sailors, and Marines are the best, but the people at home have no stomach for the suffering they themselves do not even endure.
Molon Labe!
Wow...
smitch61 Sunday, February 27th at 12:31PM EST (link)So hard to believe it has been 20 years….
I'm with the curmudgeon, until...
skorrent1 (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:46PM EST (link)He starts his “alternate history” jag. Then he introduces too much of the Paultard “fortress America” and “it’s all our fault” to suit me.
First of all, oil is a fungible, international commodity. It is not rational to say that “We have ours and to he!! with the Mideast supply”, which in ’90 was almost half the world’s supply and is still about 1/3. Libiya has only about 3% and we see what the uncertainty there is doing to the world oil price today.
Next, to go back to the geopolitics of ’90, Islamic terrorism was in full flower in the Mideast, directed at both the “Great-” amd “Little-Satan”. Wahabism was well along, and OBL had made his mark with the Afghans and moved on. With Egypt/Israel in relative peace, the two big dogs in the region were Iraq and Iran, and we played “Let’s you and him fight” quite happily in the ’80′s, as long as neither one actually won. Saddam got greedy and wanted out of the box. Very destabilizing! Neither Israel, nor Egypt/Jordan/Syria, nor Iran could have allowed Iraq to consolidate power over SA and the other Gulf States. With that money/power, Saddam could have bought nucs and even Israel couldn’t have stopped him! (Remember, Israel had already bombed his nucs once.)
No, at the time, Saddam had to be stopped. Unfortunately, he was only stopped temporarily, with an armistice (like the Korean Police Action) and it did not solve the problem with Saddam (nor Kim Il Sung). So we lived with the consequences for 12 years til we had to finish the job. (The job’s still not finished in NK after 58 years.)
There may be some corners of the world where we can sit back and ignore events (central Africa– let the Tutsies and Hutus slaughter each other??– or the Balkans– who cares if the Serbs and Moslems duke it out??) but not the Mideast. Can you imagine the political consequences if a president/congress did actually let someone exterminate Israel?
History abhors a Vacuum
conservativecurmudgeon (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 3:57PM EST (link)And, the world wouldn’t have stood still for twenty years waiting to catch up. In short, what happened DID happen. And, there really is no alternative history– it is all so much mental gymnastics.
I am not even positing that we should have acted any differently than we did. But, I AM saying that the time to resit leftist views of the world is NOW, TODAY, especially in reference to energy policy. Ultimately, if we do not, we end up having to send the very flower of our citizenry (namely, our warriors) off to third-world hell holes to pull our bacon out of the fire. I would prefer we stop doing this, especially when it is completely within our power to do so.
And, I VERY MUCH respect your viewpoint.
unfortunately sending our young men
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 4:18PM EST (link)off to defend our interests is the price we pay for being who we are. It has always been thus.
Are we in favor of free markets? The free transit of people and ideas? Even if we don’t care what form of government these various countries have, we have to care about the actions they take that have an impact on us.
I don’t buy the oil argument, per se. It was a balance of power issue about whether or not a country has the right to snuff out another country. Sure the oil was important but in 1990 we were trying to sort out what the rules would be in a world where the Soviet Union no longer constrained the actions of it’s former client states or us.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
5! nt
Danielle Davis (ocleverone) (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 4:22PM EST (link)To me, “consensus” seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects … There are still people in my party who believe in “consensus” politics. I regard them as Quislings, as traitors … I mean it. — Margaret Thatcher
great arguments streiff - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 4:47PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Totally agree
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:59PM EST (link)Moreover, even if we did have a free market in exploration, less regulation, etc we would still have interests in the ME, not only energy-related but also regarding commerce, trade routes (particularly sea routes), and general security/stability concerns. The Gulf War was the right thing to do, completely justified by pretty much any theory of realpolitik, cost us very little relative to the alternatives, and was brilliantly conceived and executed (again, relative to other engagements): actions like “taking out Saddam” simply weren’t possible, and it is difficult to see a more stable ME resulting either from allowing Saddam to invade Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and God knows who else. I also fail to see how an Iraq administrated by (at best) the US, anglo nations, and Germany would have lead to a better outcome than what we got.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
huge amens aesthete - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 6:11PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I think it is hard to know what we would have done had this not been in an oil area
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 4:49PM EST (link)But I am not ashamed to base a war on oil. Oil is what fuels the modern world, peace and prosperity since it fuels our righteous might.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
my view exactly
streiff (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:12PM EST (link)if we’re not going to go to war to preserve our very economy then one wonder’s exactly what we would go to war over.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
I consider it a scandal of epic proportions that our armed forces and Bush's war cabinet are not universally praised
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:33PM EST (link)for the great work that has been done in Iraq and I will never forgive the Bushlied Democrats for their unpatriotic speech and actions that robbed the troops of the glory they deserve and that emboldened our enemies and cost more American lives…unless they repent and ask for forgiveness. Not holding breath.
And I appreciate your stand on this matter brother.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Amen, nt
powertothepeople (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:37PM EST (link)5, in addition, imagine Libya today
Common_Cents (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:40PM EST (link)If the Bush administration didn’t take a stand against khaddaffi on backing off WMD in Libya. What if nothing was done and the guy had a freakin nuke today? We’d be on a totally different disastrous track in the ME today.
I read they may still have mustard gas as I’m sure they tried to cheat on the disarm agreement, but much more limited in delivery systems.
Obama=Golfer in Chief, Leading from,
behind, the Back Nine.Leaders don’t create movements. Movements create leaders. Get involved. Your future depends on it.
Govt “invests” YOUR tax money for POLITICAL return rather than economic return.
There have never been finer Americans in Service to our Nation.
conservativecurmudgeon (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 6:10PM EST (link)You are dead on…
totally agree 'rent1 - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 4:14PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
As a crusty old Yankee might say:
conservativecurmudgeon (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 5:29PM EST (link)“Ah-yup”.
The War in Iraq was victory! No doubt about it!
rowdydfw Sunday, February 27th at 5:51PM EST (link)We won the war in Iraq. The mission was to remove Saddam Hussein…it was a success! To say anything else is denying the truth.
Are we going to win the occupancy? The proof of the pudding is in the future. And possibly in the Iraqi youth.
Our soldiers have been living with the Iraqi’s for nine years now. Among my three nephews who have done seven tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, their consensus on the win is….Did we win any ground with the Iraqi individual peoples. We know we’re never going have common ground with the Imams and our diplomatic efforts are ongoing and at present ‘progressive’ which is a negative…
One thing you have to consider…Obama did not want our soldiers in Iraq for the long term, or even to go there. The Imam’s turbans are in a twist. History tells us that the Christian Crusades began when even those who wanted to even go visit the Holy Lands were sliced and diced by the Muslims and the Knights Templar started accompanying the travelers. Early Islam was a closed part of the world, but it was violent, and predatory.
My nephews and some of their friends befriended the children. They played with them, and did everything they could to show them kindness. They asked us to send them catalogues they could show the parents and let them pick out some things that they could share with the children. We sent them crayons, coloring books, limited to trees, flowers, simple landscapes, nothing with fairy-tales or religion, and some animals. We sent a LOT of soccer balls and shoes. We sent picture albums and the boys took pictures of them and gave them to them since they could be put in an album and not displayed openly. Anything that they gave to the children, except hard candies, was offered to the parents so as to make sure nothing was offensive to their culture. We sent soaps, candles, sometimes the mother’s were allowed to pick out plain pyjamas or t’shirts. By living among them and interacting with them and showing a people not hell bent on changing them, but respecting their right to be and chose, in THEIR country (but not ours), will make a difference. Maybe not to the present, but in the future through the youth and the young parents.
Now that our soldiers are the few and not the many, the Imams have sent Sadr back over there, and things can change and become hard core, and chaotic and dangerous again. But for just a few years, much of the fear was pulled off the youth and young with our soldiers living among them as a strong example and protector. And even if we gave them only a small taste of freedom, they will remember.
History (as a believer, I call it God) works in mysterious ways. Living the example is a grand teacher. The future allways lies in the youth.
This may all sound rosey, but remember we live in the United States. The battle to get it was long, the laying down of our foundation was long thought out. All those that went before did not get to see America today…the richness of our lives. I just pray for strength for the Iraqi youth, and that the occupancy was a win, win for us all.
God Bless your Nephews...
conservativecurmudgeon (Diary) Sunday, February 27th at 6:09PM EST (link)They are the magnificent Americans about whom I wrote, and whom I think of when I think of Valor, and honor, and sacrifice. If you remember, say hello and thank them for their service from me…