Redstate

If you want to say, "McCain puts the plight of the illegal immigrant over the plight of American citizens," say that. If you say, "Thanks a lot, Juan McCain!" You're insulting him and/or criticizing him by calling him a Latino name, thereby expressly implying that it's bad to be Latino.

I'm sure most people who do it haven't thought it through to that extent, but that's the exact problem. Racism most often manifests itself as a gut response, and this kind of stuff bespeaks a bad gut.

I suppose I'm open to hearing how the use of Latino names as an insult isn't racist against Latinos, but I haven't yet heard it here.

------------
The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.

First of all, I like that Redstate keeps the bar high, and tolerates no nonsense from those who wish to make caricatures of conservatives.

But, it would not have occured to me that using the name "Juan McCain" means that someone holds Latinos, Mexicans or Hispanics in disdain; to me it says that John McCain cares more about the good opinion of the Hispanic community and/or foreigners than he does Americans and America's best interest. So, calling him "Juan McCain" is not an insult because being hispanic is not desirable, it is because he is identifying with the best interest of illegal immigrants (who are overwhelmingly Latin)over the interests of Americans. I think this was Obama's intent when he made the Senator from Punjab remark about Hillary that caused such a flap. I did not think he was taking a swipe at India, or Indians - he was simply pointing out that in his opinion she was representing the best interests of India over Amercia.

to me it says that John McCain cares more about the good opinion of the Hispanic community and/or foreigners than he does Americans and America's best interest.

The problem with that is, you are still endorsing a dichotomy between "the Hispanic community" and "Americans."

"No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong." - Winston Churchill

because as we know, not all hispanics favor amnesty for illegals. But, it still does not negate my overall argument.

I'm sure there are dichotomies between certain communities within American society. Should our leaders pander to one group at the expense of the others?

Also, there has been much talk in the media as well as polling information about the Hispanic community and their support for candidates or lack thereof based on their stance over immigration. I don't think I am "endorsing" a dichotomy, but neither does acknowledging that there is one make me or anyone else a racist.

I respect RedState's right to set the bar high, but I agree 100% with QueenOfCups.

I have referred to John McCain that way and I am DEFINITELY NOT a racist. If I referred referred to John McCain by calling him a derogatory name for a Hispanic person, then to me, that would be racism. But I don't even know if there is such a word! I don't use racist words because I am not a racist. I have called him "the name mentioned above," but I repeat, I.AM.NOT.A.RACIST. (not yelling, just stating with emphasis.)

Your comment shows that, in your head, the Venn diagram of "illegals" and "Latinos" forms a single circle. It shows an identification of a whole race with law-breaking activity. I think that's part of the problem, and why it's clearly racism.

(-2.75, -4.92)

these commenters use latino names because of John McCain's identification with illegals, not latinos as a whole.

However, the use of latino variations of McCain's name APPEAR as racism because it insults an entire race. My point was that, in most cases, I believe this was unintentional.

In the world of political debate, appearance is everything. If you appear to be racist, then you will be considered one. Leon was right to make his request because these commenters are profaning what is a legitimate position with regard to illegal immigration.

...these commenters use latino names because of John McCain's identification with illegals, not latinos as a whole.

That doesn't make sense. The commenters used latino names because of latino's identification with illegals.

But we agree on the basics.

(-2.75, -4.92)

I think that distinction is very important, and one that Leon has failed to make in this post. It's entirely reasonable to suggest that we want to avoid the appearance of racism.

If you think you've really zinged someone by calling them [a woman], that's a pretty reliable (nearly infallible, in fact) indicator that you don't [act like a man]."

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." -- Rudyard Kipling

nt

“Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15.”
-Ronald Reagan

If you really think you have zinged someone by calling them (a hopeless bureaucrat, say Boyd), that's a pretty reliable indicator, that they don't act like one. In fact, they probably may be one of the greatest aviators, no?:-)

"Nec Aspera Terrent"
bene ambula et redambula
Contributor to The Minority Report

n/t

“Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15.”
-Ronald Reagan

Is to identify someone not as a woman but as their reproductive organ. There is a corresponding insult using the male reproductive organ.

Your point would seem to indicate that people are anti reproductive organs.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

but, alas, you're wrong.

That is a common insult, but not the only one. Men still insult other men by calling them a woman. You want to side with them, go for it.

“Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15.”
-Ronald Reagan

------------
The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.

First let me say I agree with the prohibition, though on the grounds that this site should demand more elevated and respectful discourse. And there is no doubt that monikers like "Juan McCain" are disrespectful.

But in my view it is important to draw strong distinctions between disrespect and racism, especially for those of us on the right who rightfully disdain the identity politics practiced most commonly by the left---but, alas, also by Mike Huckabee and John McCain. For an act to be racist requires that it be motivated by underlying racism---a hatred of or sense of superiority over others simply because they are of a different race. That cannot be established without further evidence. To say "there is no other reasonable explanation" is logically fallacious. You might not agree with other explanations but if you're going to strike them down as unreasonable you'll need to argue that more affirmatively.

It is not racist to recognize that the demographics of illegal immigrants in this country are overwhelmingly Mexican in nationality and Spanish-speaking---no more than it is racist to recognize that the 9/11 terrorists were of Middle Eastern descent and adherents to a form of Islam. It is not racist to recognize that the conflict of illegal immigration is a conflict that engages not just different political groups in the United States but the government of Mexico as well. It is not racist to point out that one of John McCain's unpaid advisors for Hispanic outreach is a known open-borders advocate with ties to the Mexican government. Therefore, it is reasonable to argue that the use of a disrespectful moniker such as "Juan McCain" is nothing more than a distillation of the widely acknowledged demographics at play.

So again, disrespectful? Yes. Racist? You haven't offered the evidence, and I believe that we on the right need to be more careful slinging that accusation.

I agree with mcg. I don't want to slide down into the same sort of political correctness that enables race baiters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to run out and cry racism when a politician uses a supposedly racially charged phrase like "shuck and jive".

I've used the name Juan McCain as shorthand to describe a man that seems more sympathetic to Mexicans illegally entering our country than he is to the Americans who are losing their jobs to them. People can disagree with my characterization of McCain's policy but to accuse me of racial thought-crimes goes to far.

soli Deo gloria

name calling is lazy argumentation. If you can't do it through appeals to ethos, pathos, or logos; you probably need to rethink your thesis.

“Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15.”
-Ronald Reagan

I'm sure you all remember some of the things said at DKos and DU about Michelle Malkin and Condi Rice, to name just two objects of uninhibited leftist scorn.

lesterblog.blogspot.com

over free speech. Something is wrong here.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

it's clear you mean the term "Juan" as an insult.

That doesn't make me racist, that makes me "Juan"-ist.

To fit your logic the moniker would have to be "Juan McMexican"---oops, that's nationalist, not racist.... "Juan McHispanic"---oops, that's not racist either, really, it is anti-Spanish-language... "Juan McNon-White-Hispanic"... there, that's better.

My point is that these accusations of racism just aren't holding up. I have no objection to the rules and intend to adhere to them, but I frankly take accusations of racism quite seriously and take umbrage that they would be leveled in such cavalier a fashion.

My point is that these accusations of racism just aren't holding up.

In fact, you're just demonstrating you don't really understand the problem and can fall for the most simple "mere pretext" known to man. There is -rarely- a substantive difference between "nationalist" language and "racist" language. It can be different in theory, but it very rarely is in practice.

"I will look for people in the cast of John Roberts, Samuel Alito, and my friend the late William Rehnquist – jurists of the highest caliber who know their own minds, and know the law, and know the difference." - John McCain

"....it's clear you mean Democrat as an insult."

Does the word Democrat have another meaning?

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

If we just stick to calling him "John McCain," are we insulting the "Scottish community"...?

If we simply TRANSLATE a name from one language to another...are we necessarily denigrating speakers of the other language?

Is sarcasm in the mind of the writer? Or, in the mind of the reader?

Is "racism" in the mind of the writer? Or, in the mind of the reader?

What is race??? There are plenty of persons whose dominant language is Spanish, who are not "Latinos."

---

A man descended of Scandinavian ancestors, living in an area of the United States pioneered by immigrants from Scandanavia, is chagrined that his pre-school-aged children are being taught Spanish language, dances and songs in a state-sponsored pre-kindergarten program, but none of the teachers in the same school know a word of Norwegian, Swedish or Danish. Those teachers, when they attended college in the 1960's and 1970's, were taught that it was cool to reject the Scandanavian culture of their ancestors, and went off to study ancient Peruvian shamanism while they smoked lots of pot and chewed on mushrooms, while wearing ponchos woven of llama wool. As a result, the kids are learning nothing of their own ancestry...but quite a lot about the Folklorico dances of Mexico, and nothing of the old early-American barn dances of their pioneer settler ancestors. They also have no clue of what a "Virginia reel" is. ... The man, in frustration that his kids are being neuropsychologically-programmed to have Mexican culture embedded in their brains at ages 3 and 4 and 5, throws down a sombrero onto the ground and begins dancing around it. Is this man "racist?" Or is he just expressing his frustration that his pre-school- and kindergarted-aged kids are coming home from school knowing more about Cesar Chavez, than about Leif Erikson and Davy Crockett and Benjamin Franklin?

Good freaking grief.

A. If people were upset about Scottish illegal immigration,
B. If his name WERE NOT John McCain,

then yes.

I hope you thusly see the pure idiocy of your point, since there is no measurable illegal immigration from Scotland, and his name is, in fact, John McCain.

"I will look for people in the cast of John Roberts, Samuel Alito, and my friend the late William Rehnquist – jurists of the highest caliber who know their own minds, and know the law, and know the difference." - John McCain

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Commending

lack of tolerance for bull

may now be viewed as egregious anti-bovinism.

soli Deo gloria

the complete word would be even less tolerable. :)

But yeah, when people carried the joke too far, the joke ended for everyone. So now he's Barack Henry O'Bama.

HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

...and in that thread I noted that it was just used to poke Liberals in the eye, and that potentially the silliest election cry ever could be, "Don't say his name!"

My point in noting it is merely that while it was a meme for a while it's died off thanks to Redstate's editorial staff's clear differentiation between racism and policy.

(-2.75, -4.92)

For returning to us from the Peace Corps or UNICEF or whatever other bleeding-heart organization you were off helping for a period of time. I'm glad you didn't catch Malaria and die. :-)

------------
The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.

UNICEF took over my classroom, came a few times a year for a photo op and a press release, and gave the school markers to give to the students which the director stole and sold back to the kids at his in-school shop. Absolutely no oversight whatsoever. They built a new bathroom, however. And the director kept it locked until they came back so it wouldn't get dirty.

(-2.75, -4.92)

------------
The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.

And I cost American taxpayers about $40,000/year, and my town had a population about 40,000 people. And I was always there. So basically the US Gov't paid $1/yr per citizen for goodwill towards Americans in a Muslim nation with lots of natural gas reserves. And also they learned some English, learned about the outside world, and about Democracy. I may have gone for bleeding-heart purposes, but mostly I was operating as a grassroots force against Russian cultural and political influence it seems. So $1/yr per citizen seems pretty cheap.

(-2.75, -4.92)

The question is whether you got to meet and/or create goodwill with all 40,000 of those people - otherwise, your math is a little screwy. Still, you know, there's a place for that kind of thing, for sure.

------------
The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.

Looks good on you, though.

"No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong." - Winston Churchill

But maybe the Directors will override me on that.

HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

quoting Al Bundy, "It is good to hate the French."

"No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong." - Winston Churchill

"It was the treacherous French! Who crippled our once-great economy and wrecked our telephone system!"

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

We should get rid of Brussels Journal from the links. Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs thinks it's racist. Any Europeans who defend their traditional cultures and homelands are racist, because Europe should be about abstractions like "freedom", not ethnic ties, religion, culture, or other exclusionary concepts.

We should also ban all diaries by Paul Cella. He once said mockingly, "But I forget myself: patriotism in America, as our wise men have taught, is not about a real country, her people, integrity, sovereignty and traditions; it is only about ideas." He's implying America is the product of a specific people and culture and that absent those people and that culture, America will not endure. That's also racist.

John McCain said that America will be "enriched" by the "fresh blood and culture" of Hispanics. That is not racist, that's allowed. Actually it's encouraged, it will help us win the Hispanic vote.

Trying to say something about the "white vote" is racist though. If someone said Mexico is being "enriched" by the "fresh blood and culture" of white Americans who are moving there, that is also racist.

I think we should have permanent moderators to keep all these rules straight. Otherwise Democrats might start calling Republicans racists.

Look, I don't really care whether "you believe" that insulting someone by calling them a Latino name isn't racist against Latinos, or that you can't understand how that applies to the very definition you cut-and-pasted there, I have yet to hear an explanation from anyone of how it is *not* racist. And no, "You only think it's racist because Liberals have trained you to feel that way!!11!!" is not an explanation.

------------
The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.

The socialist/Clinton technique: you are wrong and no matter what is said, you won't be right.
I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I am stating that it does not meet the definition of racist, or prejudice, or any other terms you can come up with that try to prove your point. I am very curious to see your response to the commentors that have used french names to question your theory.
If you choose to shut down the use of latin names, does that go for all silly name calling in different languages?

Are we ready to go down the slippery slope of trying not to offend people or at the very least make them uncomfortable?

"An appeaser is someone who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.” -Winston Churchill

You're obviously on some sort of crusade here for... well, I don't care, exactly, but it doesn't involve reading comprehension, even of the material in your own comment. So I'll let you go on unimpeded if you want. All that it's important for you to know is that doing at RedState will get you banned from here. Period. Brave New World, fascists, etc. etc.

P.S. I haven't deigned to respond to people who think "French" is a race.

------------
The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.

...I personally appreciated hearing billevans politely speak his mind ...I didn't find it offense or a crusade.

...does billevans have to go to the countryside for re-education?

It's their site, their rules, and if you don't liek it, start your own conservative website. Violate the rules and get banned-its not rocket scientist unless your an idiot, which people crying witch hunt on a trivial request are proving themselves to be.

If you ever find that you only have an hour to live,spend it with a liberal and it will seem like a year."-Rush Limbaugh

“An appeaser is someone who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.” -Winston Churchill

No crying here. Just trying to point out that not everything is racist just because someone says it is.
Also, no I am not a racist. Yes, racism exists, but not in my world.

“An appeaser is someone who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.” -Winston Churchill

HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

I appreciate you taking the time make sure that I and everyone understand the rules. I do think that by following this rule, it will help enhance the discussions taking place here.

I hope I haven't caused a rise in your blood pressure.

“An appeaser is someone who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.” -Winston Churchill

n/t

French is not either a race or ethnicity.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." -- Rudyard Kipling

There is a reason why census takers take pains to specify "non-White Hispanic". It is a geographic and linguistic distinction, not an ethnic one. From the White House OMB:

-- Hispanic or Latino. A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race. The term, "Spanish origin," can be used in addition to "Hispanic or Latino."

lesterblog.blogspot.com

I agree. Honestly, reading the original article I felt a little like I was entering "Brave New World".

All agree: no racist related comments - it hurts the overall argument.

However, to conduct a witch hunt, to conduct a Red State "Cultural Revolution" and attempt to find defectors and punish them is weird and wrong. It is a fact that humans don't live in jars, humans don't live in laboratories, humans live in the real world. Sometimes people fighting together in foxholes, facing death together, people working together, great friends from different cultures, may still find humor or release or comfort including politically incorrect cultural references for each other.

Finally, to say, strictly speaking, that absolutely, beyond any shadow of a doubt, absolutely completely and totally, that anyone anywhere in the world throughout human history that has ever referred to another person and included in that reference a cultural reference, to say that that person is or was mathematically provably a bigot and racist, is silly and technically incorrect.

Thanks,

Are/were there no illegal immigrants from Europe? Why isn't the good Anglo name "John McCain" itself not good enough to highlight the Senator's immigration stance? Also, please explain why tagging McCain with a Latino name to link him to illegals doesn't also link illegal immigration with the millions of Americans with Latino names who are legal immigrants and citizens of the United States.

(-2.75, -4.92)

I live and work in the Chicago area. We have thousands and thousands of Polish, Russian and Irish illegal immigrants. The problem with the small, but loud, sliver of anti-illegal immigration activists is that they really are anti-Mexican or anti-brown people. They insist on building a wall but don't bother to mention the millions who come here through our airports. While illegal immigration from Mexico and Central American is the largest component, we also have millions coming in from Europe, Asia, Africa and South America who come in on tourist visas and simply stay.

That's quite a comment there, proclaiming that anti-illegal immigration activists really are anti-brown bigots. That's a very leftist statement and a very leftist point of view.

I wonder what you think about people who want to reduce LEGAL immigration into our country? Keep in mind that when asked in the most simple of terms, a majority or pluarlity of Americans usually express support for reducing legal immigration, though sometimes it comes in second to 'maintain current levels.' Is this huge segment of the population 'really anti-Mexican or anti-brown'?

Can one oppose mass immigration and not be guilty until proven innocent of racism?

to get deported someday) is from Portugal.

stay are far less obvious. They did, after all, have the money to fly over rather than walk across a desert. And they probably put significantly less strain on public services than poor illegals do also... and are therefore less visible from that standpoint as well.

Saying that the vocal anti-illegal immigration activists are racists is garbage. I know, because I'm anti-illegal immigration, and I am the least racist person I've ever met in my life. You can't know what's in a man's heart other than your own... and I know what's in mine... and your comment is incredibly ignorant at the least. But then again, the left never feels bad about assuming they are superior in some fashion or other, so I shouldn't be surprised I guess. Please feel free to take your BS rhetoric back to Move-on.org

HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

I guess RS does want trash like this lying about. Interesting...

Chief Woggowoggo Lives!

One man's trash is another man's treasure!

HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

If you ever find that you only have an hour to live,spend it with a liberal and it will seem like a year."-Rush Limbaugh

Assimilation is endangered by the high levels of immigration (the great European wave eventually came to an end, so citing that wave is not a retort) and the decision by our elites to embrace 'diversity' and multiculturalism over assimilation.

...and you would have noted that we've come down against that (somewhat different, and less offensive) very issue.

I believe the current slang term for your effort would be "FAIL."

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!