In a thread about tort reform, I started off a comment to Mr Devine with what I thought was an innocuous preamble: ”I am not being a wiseguy but please tell me where I misapprehend the implications of federal tort reform.” I was trying to show respect for Mr Devine’s experience and, knowing I’ve written about this subject several times, wanted to deflect from the appearance of my being a one-trick pony.
But I guess I am a one-trick pony. My one trick is this: curtail expansion of central power through the interstate commerce clause. Nobody challenges federal legislation anymore because making a frontal assault on federal power interstate through the interstate commerce clause is futile. All central power comes through the commerce clause.
I challenge anyone to give me any action or subject. I can connect it with interstate commerce in the maximum of two hops.
In any case, it disturbs me to see people on the conservative side of the aisle are clamoring for federal tort reform. If you are for states’ rights and respect for the Tenth Amendment, how can you possible want federal tort reform? Do you just want states’ rights for the stuff you favor and not for the stuff you don’t like? Begging for federal tort reform is suicidal. You are begging the federal government to preempt a substantial portion of hundreds of years of state law.
If a federal tort reform act is passed, it can only be done so based on the interstate commerce clause. Under Article VI, all federal laws passed pursuant to the constitution preempt “conflicting” state laws and state constitutions.
Here are the implications of a constitutional federal tort reform act. If the federal act preempts conflicting state laws and constitutions, which it does by Article VI, the federal government has always had that power and the states have never had it. The fact that the states have been regulating tort law up until the time of the federal tort reform act was due to the forbearance of the federal legislature. Again, if the federal Congress has the constitutional authority to pass a federal tort reform act today, they had the authority to do it in 1789.
According to the theory underlying the Tenth Amendment, the people had all the power. Some of it they delegated to the federal government through the federal constitution, some of it they delegated to the state government through the state constitution, and some of it they kept to themselves. Since there was no constitutional amendment granting the federal legislature the authority to regulate tort law, it must exist in one of the existing grants of power, namely, the commerce clause.
In trying to explain a newly found or exercised federal power, federal courts rely on the Clear Statement Doctrine: ”The Supreme Court has long required that if Congress intends to alter [the usual constitutional balance between the States and the Federal Government,] it must make an unmistakably clear statement of its intention to do so in the language of the statute.” Notable about the clear statement doctrine is the presumption or assumption that the federal congress has the authority. It is only their intention to preempt state law is in question. In other words, the fact that tort cases have always been judged by state law precedent is not a rebuttal to the federal congress clearly and unequivocally expressing its intention to “alter the constitutional balance.” The main point — that the federal congress has the power under the interstate commerce clause — has already been conceded. Again, the only condition for preemption of state laws and constitutions under Article VI, is that the federal law was made pursuant to the constitution. Game over.
Some argue that we only want to regulate medical malpractice cases. A medical malpractice is negligence case. The only difference between a medical malpractice case is the standard applied to the defendant. In the case of a car accident the standard to be applied is whether the defendant acted as a reasonable driver or person; in the case of medical malpractice, a reasonable doctor; in the case of architectural malpractice, a reasonable architect, and so on. So when you concede the federal government has power to regulate malpractice cases, you are saying it has power to regulate car accident and dog bite cases. You have conceded that the federal government has the power under the commerce clause to preempt all state tort law and state constitutions. Game over.
Others argue that we should put caps on damages. This is the most ghoulish suggestion I’ve ever heard. Assume you have a case where the doctor has accidentally amputated both of a person’s perfectly good legs. Let’s say there is universal and unanimous agreement that the damages are 1,000,000. Now let’s say there is damage cap of 300,000. Someone is ahead by 700,000. There is only the doctor, the doctor’s insurance carrier, and the general public. If the general public is ultimately benefited by the reduction of medical malpractice premiums and a consequent reduction of medical costs, this one person has borne the expense of your benefit. How’s that for a transfer of wealth?
The ultimate folly of federal tort reform is that you are conceding the one and only point – the federal government has power to preempt state tort law. While this federal tort reform may be beneficial today, what happens when they lobby and adopt a non-beneficial tort reform in the future? You are out of arguments against it. Suckers.
Finally, I too am an attorney, basically a real estate attorney. That I am an attorney is a distinct disadvantage when discussing tort reform. There are always hints and implications that one is opposed to tort reform because one is getting rich off of it. I wish I could justify that.
Daniel Horowitz
Neil Stevens
Steve Maley
Jake Walker
Thanks casel21, I don't think I'm alone in wanting to see the comments on this diary!
nessa (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 4:18PM EST (link)I definitely want to chew over the ideas and suggestions of the experts here, it doesn’t take a genius to see the issues with tort. It goes well beyond medical malpractice, for example, the Hot McDonalds Coffee case. I’m not knowledgeable enough to make any suggestions to fix it but I’m looking forward to some indepth analysis and suggestions here!
Thanks for opening the door!
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
I,too, am looking forward to this discussion to learn more.
janis (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 4:52PM EST (link)While I understand your point on the cap on malpractice suits, do you favor a remedy of some kind other than capping? I think that one of the big problems with the medical community is the refusal of state medical boards to yank doctors’ licenses if they are proven to be quacks. I’m not talking about doctors who get complaints, but the ones who end up with criminal charges against them or who are repeatedly involved in lawsuits for malpractice. I’ve seen instances when doctors lose their licenses for serious infractions, only to be reinstated in a few years. Or they lose their license in another state, but are allowed to practice elsewhere.
I don’t know the answers here, but it seems to me that lawyers like John Edwards shouldn’t be making fortunes like his in the way that he has.
You are right that the problem
casel21 (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 5:34PM EST (link)lies in the medical community. They should pump out as many doctors as they do lawyers. The medical school accrediting body controls and restricts the supply of doctors. While I don’t know if there is the physical capacity to train more doctors, there is surely no shortage of qualified applicants.
Pumping out as many doctors as lawyers has its own problems.
janis (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 5:52PM EST (link)In a nearby town, the doctors have been scrambling for enough patients to treat to make a living. The one treating me abruptly left for South Carolina when he found a better practice to join. A case manager nurse was telling me that she had seen a lot of that recently.
There are a lot of areas in this country who desperately need qualified doctors, but those communities do not offer the kind of perks and money that would attract many doctors today. Communities such as these might consider sending qualified applicants from among their own to medical schools in return for a contractual obligation for X number of years, thus reducing the student loan necessity for the young doctor. The cost of medical school is exorbitant, prompting many to seek out the highest pay afterwards in order to pay off debt.
Torts Reform Justified By Rationed Care
americanmale Sunday, August 16th at 4:54PM EST (link)<>
Inherent in rationed care is the calculation of a dollar amount relative to the medical services provided. Clearly, this results in a sum total value of a human life. If rationed care inherently values a human life, then that same number should be transferred to the judicial side of the equation.
I shudder to think of the value Obama would put on a conservatives life!
nessa (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 5:43PM EST (link)Like every other socialist and fascist BO, Pelosi, Reid, et al, would have two values for lives, theirs and everyone elses, but I also imagine there would be deductions, overwirght -10%, over 60 -10% over 70 -an additional 25%, conservative -25%, on the email list -an additional 25%…
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
Seeking Big Quick Is Part of the Tort Problem
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 5:41PM EST (link)It would be easy if their was one idea or one bill that could change things. Its kind of like the entitlement state. It got this way incrementally and it is probably going to be deconstructed through incrementally
A shift in culture, some case precedent, some state action, maybe some federal action.
Agree on 10th Am. grounds, but a lot of oversimplification
Achance (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 6:13PM EST (link)of the issues. Maybe the correct federalist action is a nationwide initiative to enact tort reform in the states we control and in doing so, make life a living Hell in those the communists control.
The real problem with torts is juries of twelve morons selected specifically because they give every indication of being morons. There are enough problems with the notion of a jury of one’s peers as it is. I’d gladly pony up six figures in settlement money to avoid a Juneau jury on even the most meritorious cases. There was no way that either the State or I in my capacity as a State officer could get a fair trial; I really don’t think that I could get a fair trial here on a purely personal matter just because I’m fairly well known and associated with my former job.
Most negligence cases should go before special masters or some sort of arbitration-like panel where the triers of fact have true technical knowlege. Putting such cases before twelve morons with drivers’ licenses really just means that it becomes a contest of whose lawyer can muster the most emotional appeal or provoke the opposing counsel to error. And, frankly, it is bad enough even with arbitration where even though most labor arbitrators have good technical expertise, they play politics and favorites. If you understand that, you play the politics and work the favoritism, but if you’re dumb enough to believe all that “search for truth” stuff, you get screwed.
In any event, I don’t think a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or practically any other professional or government officer can get a fair trial from a jury of twelve morons with drivers’ licenses, and I think that is the root of the problem.
In Vino Veritas
Good points all. I'm interested in the notion you brought up
janis (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 6:45PM EST (link)about panels of people who have “true technical expertise” as you put it. You know, initially when you just throw out the concept of “tort reform” for discussion, the first thing that pops into lots of minds is that it’s the fault of lawyers exclusively. But that’s just not true. As I write this, there are just 8 comments on this diary, but each one brings up another aspect that is part of the problem.
Much to my disappointment, this will be a harder problem to solve than the “Stop that!” followed by a thwack across the knuckles with a wooden ruler notion that ran through my head with regard to attorneys.
I think we should try Thwacking lawyers anyway.
nessa (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 7:13PM EST (link)nt
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
I think we should try Thwacking lawyers anyway.
nessa (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 7:13PM EST (link)nt
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
The line would go all the way around the building, nessa.
janis (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 7:29PM EST (link)Perhaps we could use the idea as a fundraiser for conservative internet activists? Who could object?
Great idea janis, waay better than a dunking tank!
nessa (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 7:44PM EST (link)The hard part will be talking GC into sitting in the booth!
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
That's an easy one, nessa. We will simply
janis (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 8:15PM EST (link)promise to recommend his next 20 diaries. Should take us into late August.
I Agree; And I'll "Flag" Myself
Swamp_Yankee (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 7:53PM EST (link)I feel so passionately about it that a couple paragraph response turned into a long diary.
They need to be smacked down. I practiced for eight years, and will volunteer mysefl for a theacking for aiding and abetting corruption
We would only thwack the lawyers on RS to raise money, Swamp Yankee!
nessa (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 8:03PM EST (link)Nice rant, by the way. The link is below to make our going back and forth easier.
http://www.redstate.com/swamp_yankee/2009/08/16/a-rant-on-tort-reform-and-unscrupulous-attorneys/
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
Loser pays?
Kentucky Scott (Diary) Sunday, August 16th at 7:20PM EST (link)Can the attorneys here explain if the losing defendant paying attorney’s fees and court costs is a practical and usable option in our court system? I assume this could be at least be implemented in the federal system without infringing on states rights?
I have never understood one having the right to force the use of another person’s money to defend a frivolous claim or make settlements to avoid a higher expense. If the claim is truly meritorious, the plaintiff attorney should be fully comfortable taking this risk.
I don't support a general "loser pays,"
Achance (Diary) Tuesday, August 18th at 9:27AM EST (link)at least where one of the parties is a private individual. Most legal proceedings are really just a contest to determine who has the best lawyer and the most money. Joe Sixpack who has to pay an attorney out of pocket would all too often face a government or Acme Enterprises, Inc. which has dozens of lawyers that get paid whether they do anything or not. Acme can not only run up expenses that Joe has to pay up front, it can also run up its own expenses that Joe is then threatened with having to pay. The whole system is much too chilling towards a private individual’s right to seek damages or redress.
That said, the Court should have the ability to assess some or even all costs and fees against a party. We have such a provision in Alaska and while judges are reticent to use it much, a good thing, I think, they will address the costs and fees issue if asked to and will apportion some costs and fees against the loser. There is a “public interest” exception that is so wide you can drive trucks and environmental groups through it, but a limited loser pays provision does tamp down some of the worst abuses.
In Vino Veritas
Just one lawyer's opinion
Lammo (Diary) Monday, August 17th at 2:46PM EST (link)but federal tort reform would be fine so long as it only applied to cases brought in the federal courts. In fact, it will be necessary to enact federal court tort reform when enough states get their acts together in order to prevent cases being brought in federal court that don’t belong there.
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)