"They're God's Children."--John McCain
By Flagstaff Posted in Immigration — Comments (68) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
John McCain made a statement today, again trying to formulate a coherent position on the illegal immigration problem. It still doesn't wash.
He is still looking at it in terms of "they're God's children," instead of "a tidal wave of illegal immigration from a single third-world country will wreck our economy while it devastates our society and culture."
Mr. McCain needs to look at the economic side of the equation in addition to its human welfare and even its law-enforcement and ethical aspects.
There are studies that have tried to answer the question of whether illegals are a net benefit or net drag on the economy. I doubt that they can be called definitive either way, because they disagree about what to count. One example: A major report that says they are a net negative does NOT figure their Social Security tax payments into its equations, reasoning that there is an offsetting obligation incurred to pay future benefits. Its counterpart that claims illegal immigration to be helping us financially does count those payments in their favor, reasoning that the government accounts for Social Security on a "pay as you go" basis, thus ignoring the future obligations.
Furthermore, I doubt that any study will ever take into account the contributions and costs added by the second- and third-generation offspring, people who wouldn't even be here if it weren't for the illegal presence of their parents or grandparents at one time. Most studies would categorize them as "Americans" (our shorthand for US citizens) and therefore not a relevant factor in the equation.
It will probably never be possible to determine absolutely whether illegal immigrants are an economic positive or negative for the country, but a bit of common-sense analysis should point us in the right direction.
To start, they are illegal. That means there is at least a smattering of enforcement being attempted at all times. That costs. A negative.
Many illegals work off the books. No taxes need be paid. A negative.
They do spend their money here (at least some of it). That's a positive.
Even on the books, we're told that illegals work jobs that "Americans won't do." Even if this is true, it means that either (1) the jobs are unnecessary and would just not be done without the supply of illegal labor, or (2) the jobs are necessary but would have to pay more to convince Americans to work at them. The logical conclusion is that Americans who are being forced out of the labor market would take the work at a higher rate, absent the competition of of cheap illegal labor. They would also pay more taxes. A BIG negative, offset slightly by the smaller positive that goods now "produced" by illegals would then cost more.
Because the majority of benign (that is, not crime- or terrorist-based) illegal immigrants have minimal education, poor job skills, and low English proficiency, they tend to be found in those low-wage jobs mentioned above. If they pay tax at all, it's not much. They're logically NOT going to be contributing much to tax revenues at any level. Meanwhile, they grow families at a much higher rate than do Americans. (There are statistics that prove this unequivocally.) The result is a much higher than average burden on our various social systems--schools, medical, welfare, housing and even charitable institutions. Not to mention the environment. (More later on this.) Another BIG negative.
There are various statistics that support the claim illegals (and their second- and third-generation offspring who aren't illegal at all, but are Americans who should not have been born here but were) comprise a large portion of the gangs in Los Angeles and elsewhere throughout the US. Without trying to prove exact numbers or percentages, there isn't any doubt that the effects of these gang members are meaningful. Again, enforcement efforts, judicial processing, and incarceration cost us all, without mitigation. A negative, even if the percentage is very low.
When one considers all this, it's difficult to understand how the presence of 20 million or so illegal immigrants can be anything other than a tremendous drag on our economy. (After all, if they were that productive, wouldn't Mexico et al be moving heaven and Earth to keep them at home?) So,
John McCain needs to face up to the economic consequences (both intended and unintended) of allowing 20 million illegals to remain with impunity in the country, and what a half-hearted effort to enforce immigration laws combined with a "path to citizenship" will mean to FUTURE inflows of illegal immigrants.
Once he addresses that problem with real StraightTalk, we FisCons will have a lot more confidence in him.
About the environment: Apparently 10% of our population shouldn't even be here (not counting offspring). That means we are USING ABOUT 10% MORE RESOURCES THAN WE WOULD OTHERWISE USE. Ten percent more carbon output. Ten percent more wood products. Ten percent more petroleum. Ten percent more GASOLINE.
Mr. Environmentally-Friendly McCain needs to consider that, too.
Finally, it is commendable that John McCain reminds us that even illegal immigrants are "God's children." I'd like to remind Mr. McCain that it's my understanding that God has dominion over all the Earth. That includes those countries that the illegal immigrants came from, and to which they should eventually return. They will be no less God's children there than they are here. If those countries don't treat their citizens as if they were God's children, that's another problem, but it's not one to solve by asking them all to come here.
There is a verse for every occasion.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
they'll still be God's children if they go back to Mexico or if they never come here in the first place. The country where they happen to be located doesn't affect their standing in His eyes.
The Unofficial RedState FAQ
“You are not only responsible for what you say, but also for what you do not say. ” - Martin Luther
United States born here by the grace of God are dying under the weight of taxes taken from a hard days work to help the families of God's children from other countries....or is McCain saying some of God's children are more deserving than others? I would remind McCain that at least 1/2 of the 6 billion of God's children would love to come to America...should they Senator? or again are you picking and choosing which of God's children should get our tax dollars?
Don't play this game of serenity for some Senator you will lose.....you sir are not God and you sir do not get to pick and choose who will live and die in their countries trying to get to God's country....if you allow amnesty you will put more of God's children in harms way as they have a mass push to get to this country.
Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion
McCain needs get tough, to round up them illegals and send them home. Hey, maybe Tom Tancredo has a drivers license for a big and can get a big rig with a cattle trailer. Load them illegals up, ship them down to the border and kick their collective rear ends back to where they came from.
Maybe Big John can promote a bill to cut off a toe or something every time an illegal come across the border and gets caught, maybe shave their heads after being caught, how about branding? Maybe force them to sit through one of McCain's speeches...whoops McCain is against torture.
If only Big John would get real tough on illegal aliens, people would love him and vote for him...or maybe not.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
canards about shipping them all back home....how intellectually dishonest of you because the reality is when the illegal alien laws are put into practice they work and when employers are forced to actually check SS#'s the laws work....but you go ahead and console yourself that you are "above" the rest of us lowly racists and when your identity is stolen or your job is taken by an "immigrant" you come on back and tell us how that works for you.
That's right I am a nativist and a racist and guess what damn proud of it if that means the LAWS of the US are being enforced....and you are social liberal who wants to save the world...good luck with that!
Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion
Jaded
Just for you then; shoot to kill zones, land mines, killer toads, suspend the Constitution...what ever it takes to keep "them" out, that's what Big John needs to do to make you happy.
Makes about as much sense as the non solutions you offer.
As to the other, well seeming as how I've never used those terms to describe your point of view, you might be feeling guilty or something, shoe fits?
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
right and you have obviously never read what I have written about illegal aliens because I have given solutions but your LIBERAL 'let them stay' is no solution unless of course you are independently weathy and want to pay for them....but of course being LIBERAL you want the government ie: me and my fellow citizens to pay those taxes for them to stay. If you think the shoe fits my friend than you believe what you want.
I find your LIBERAL policies of keeping illegals here as slaves to big business to be more racist than any thing I or others would ever say about it...and that shoe fits you to a tee.
Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion
When someone can only rebut strawman caricatures of the opposing position, rather than rebutting what's actually proposed, it indicates one of two things: Either he's too ignorant to even know what the opposing position is, or he's smart enough to know that he has no credible rebuttal to the opposing position.
Another sign that lies soon will fly fast and loose: reference to illegal immigration as "immigration." I find it remarkable that Sen. McCain finally came around and embraced the position where the nation is--border security first, and then status adjustment considerations--and has now managed to torque off everyone on this issue.
But given the Clark remarks today, I'll give JM a bit of a pass and let this one go.
here a few years ago you will not know that Steve was our resident race baiter. He never took me up on my offer to let him pay for all the costs that illegals are causing my state.
Our schools are overcrowded, our jails are overflowing, our hospitals are closing down emergency rooms and one big one is in receivership.
God forbid that you are one of the unlucky ones who gets hit on the highway by an illegal because they got no license, they got no insurance. And the cops just let them go. So our rates go up. Of course that's not all.
You also lose rights when a foreign minority begin to be such a large part of your population. Try getting any sort of public service job around here if you are not bilingual. And by bilingual I don't mean German, French, Japanese, or Chinese. I mean you better speak Spanish. The tail wags the dog.
But to some people, there is no problemo.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
kyle
You've never promoted one single legislative proposal that stands any chance of being signed into law to address this problem. Once you do, then we can have a rational debate of the merits of your plan.
While I disagree with McCain before on this issue, he gets it now, and is promising to secure the border first. McCain is maybe not perfect, but better than people who are only angry and have no plan that stands any chance of being passed into law on how to fix the problem of illegal immigration, which seems to be you.
Maybe NObama will listen better to your side....somehow I doubt it.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
"he gets it now, and is promising to secure the border first."
That's the problem. He doesn't get it. It isn't just about border security, although that is a big part of the solution.
We also need a program that will deal with the illegals already here, while avoiding the trap of encouraging others to follow them in.
There is nothing racist, inhumane, or un-Christian about either aspect of the solution.
And, there isn't a great deal of need for new legislation. Selective enforcement can be our friend. If Congress wants to be part of the solution, let them join us.
And I'm typing this with no anger at all. I know you're on our side, with a different viewpoint.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet -
Forever!
Let's say for a second that I grew up in the deep South where institutional bigotry and Jim Crowe was the standard of the day. No comparison to your postions intended.
Might a person who was not a minority, but was sickened by the overt racism of the 60's south tend to be a bit sensitive to even a whiff of the smell of racism at times?
Just asking.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
... I mean, liberals are notorious for springing accusations of racism whenever they realize they're losing a debate, especially where race can be shoe-horned into it.
The problem with you "moderates" is that you tend to accept liberal premises and conventional wisdom without giving much thought as to their validity.
There was no mention of race in Flagstaff's OP, and there was absolutely nothing in there to suggest that if the bulk of the people scaling the border were blond haired and blue eyed, he would have no objection to the nation's immigration laws being enforced.
Notwithstanding your "sensitivity" ... maybe you should expend some effort towards overcoming the planted automatic presumption that opposition to illegal immigration on the Right is about race.
"First you win the argument, then you win the vote." - MARGARET THATCHER.
So let's start winning the argument.
Nice to hear from you, Steve.
Are those serious suggestions you have for an action plan? We want him to win, don't we? Or are you just trotting out the 'Crat talking points that we know will be presented by their talking heads? (^:^)
You know, there are some plans that can work without being quite that Draconian. Those ideas can be helpful. I don't think yours are.
"If only Big John would get real tough on illegal aliens, people would love him and vote for him...or maybe not."
I think the split would be 80%: Love. 20%: Maybe not. Unless he takes your suggestions.
It's entirely within the realm of possibility that a McCain statement could touch on the subject without sounding like he intends to capitulate entirely to the illegal alien lobby. He is against lobbyists, too, isn't he?
Did you even consider any of the economic points I went through? If the economy is going to tank in a generation or two because of mistakes made now, isn't it incumbent upon our guy to address that aspect of the situation too, not just utter religious platitudes?
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
is setting up to be a major backfire as unemployment rises.
When God's other children are thrown onto public assistance as the economy worsens, how well will these other God's children welcome more and more and more illegals coming to the U.S.?
While unemployment was at 4.5 and 5 percent, the case could conceivably still be made about work Americans won't do.
At 5.5 percent and up, not so much.
Our Economy Is No Longer A Growing Economy. We Do Not Need inflows of needy.
The free exchange of ideas inevitably yields both heat and light.
In countless discussions I said What happens when the economy is no longer booming and our cities fill up with millions of unassimilated people with no jobs who already don't like us too much?
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
I used to get into discussions with people online who were sobbing and crying about the poor, the poor, the poor, who have nothing, nothing, nothing. And there are so many who can't find work, and there is not enough health care and the schools are crowded and lousy and the poor, the poor, the poor.
Then I would state the stats on what levels of needy are flocking across the border and how pray tell do they affect our economy and the level of social services we can provide?
That pretty much shut them up... usually.
The free exchange of ideas inevitably yields both heat and light.
Here is vid testimony regarding hospital care for illegals. Two illegals have cost one hospital Three Million Dollars.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bLJxmJZXgNI
The free exchange of ideas inevitably yields both heat and light.
kyle8
All of what you say is true, but I'd say "Show me the money".
Show me the money that businesses, big and small make from exploiting illegal alien workers who they don't pay prevailing wage, or social security, or workman's comp.
Show me the money that it will cost to get lazy Americans, who mostly don't have a job, to get off their tuckus and get out and work 8, 10 or 12 hours a day picking crops in this country.
Show me the money that the welfare industry, and government workers who live off it, will loose if illegals are denied service.
Show me the money we tax payers are going to spend to put children of illegals who were born in this country and may or may not be citizens into foster care.
Show me the money, and show me the guts of any elected politician to actually take a case to resolve the 14th amendment status of children of illegal all the way to the Supreme court.
Too much money involved to make normal people happy.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
Your previous arguments were that there was NOTHING that could be done and any attempt to do ANYTHING was racist or at best mean spirited.
Now you are making an argument about the problems of big government and greedy business (I ignore the lazy american crap, the way you motivate people is to pay them a decent wage).
Those are problems, but they are separate ones. And a lot harder to tackle than to put into place a few common sense things that make it less attractive to come here illegally. Like enforcing work codes and not giving out foodstamps and other freebies to non citizens. Those are doable.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
kyle
I'm making two arguments.
1) Illegal immigration is a very complex problem that mostly we Americans created by allowing cheap businesses to exploit workers. We have no one to blame but ourselves. Fixing the problem now is a bit akin to closing the barn door after the horse got out.
2) At the end of the day, illegal immigrants are doing exactly what I would do if I were in their shoes. If I was a starving person from south of the border and there were jobs to be had in North America, there is not much you could do to stop me from trying to get there so that I could take care of my family. This is human nature and the human side of illegal immigration, and one that in our desire for punishment of the guilty we should try to remember. I think that's what McCain was pointing out.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
http://michellemalkin.com/?s=jamiel+shaw
Oh I know you will say Americans will kill but an American did not kill this young man.
http://hamptonroads.com/node/246921
Oh I know you will say Americans drive drunk also but this was not an American who killed these two young ladies.
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_gangs.html
Oh I know you will say Americans belong to gangs also but these are not Americans and they are more violent than those wussy American gangs....so you can say they gangbang better than Americans..
Wise up! not every illegal alien is here to support a family and if you have no contact with the law than as an illegal alien you should have no problem at all in this country without McCain or Obama giving amensty.
If you are using someone's SS to work you are committing a felony, if you are using false documents to get DL's you are committing a felony....there should be no amnesty to those committing felonies.
Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion
liberal....you know when you cannot win an argument as with most liberals you devolve into having no expectations from the argument (I call that not thinking of a good enough reply)....but I could have called this right on the money 2 replys ago...heh!
Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion
our desire for punishment of the guilty
Nobody (at least too few and inconsequential to matter) is proposing to punish most illegal aliens. Even the most draconian fringe of your "round 'em up and deport 'em" caricature mainly favors merely sending illegals home, without imposing any punishment (fine or prison). Or do you consider it punishment if a trespasser is told to get off the property?
At the end of the day, illegal immigrants are doing exactly what I would do if I were in their shoes. If I was a starving person from south of the border and there were jobs to be had in North America ...
That's a valid point on why illegals are here without our consent. And by making it too expensive (as in run out of business) for employers to hire illegals, your valid point is no longer operative. There would not be "jobs to be had in North America" so they would no longer have the incentive to break into our country.
Steve, since you like reality, I'll relate some facts to you.
I have met and know several illegal aliens. None of them were "a starving person from south of the border." One was sending his paycheck back home to build his very nice house south of Mexico City. (I don't care about his house; it's told to illustrate that he wasn't starving, nor was his family.) He was near enough finished that he decided to go home in January before anybody official asked him to go.
Another one is a nice woman who has a managerial job, and three kids since she came here several years ago. She could have chosen to have a smaller (or no) family, or chosen to have it in her home, Mexico. Instead, she chose to have them here. It would be a shame to lose her kids to Mexico (good kids all), but it will be her problem, not ours.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
Flagstaff
I'm not into the statistics of who and what illegals come to this country for based on where they are in the social order in their home countries.
But I do think you'd find that the vast majority are coming here to make a living for their family back home, or in some cases their extended families.
But the root cause of illegal immigration to this country is not rides at Disneyland, or free education, or free health care, it's a job and a paycheck to send back home. It's jobs that American's won't do for the money offered and we let businesses pass on this hidden tax to all of us. We Americans are as much to blame for the mess called illegal immigration as the illegals coming here for that job magnet.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
It's jobs that American's won't do for the money offered and we let businesses pass on this hidden tax to all of us.
That's more than a lot of defenders of McCain on immigration would acknowledge. Would you support President McCain aggressively enforcing existing laws on employer verification, and improving prevention of Social Security fraud (through enforcement and technology)? Then let the free market for legal labor deal with the resulting changes in the labor supply?
That's most of what I want. Forget about trying to find most illegals - let them go home on their own accord when they can't get jobs or most government services. I support a border fence but could live without it: it's a worthless piece of symbolism without employer enforcement, and becomes just a minor supplement if effective employer enforcement is in place.
A physical barrier is an absolute necessity, if for no other reason than it will be here after our elected representatives desire to keep the borders secure has been lost at the Mexican embassy, when employer enforcement is non-existent. Don't forget, not every illegal is here to look for work. Some already have a job to do.
The fence that should be put into place is far from worthless. It serves many useful security purposes, but this isn't the place to go into them.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
... offering unskilled Mexicans the opportunity to make thousands of dollars that they can't make at home, they will find a way to get across - over, under or around any wall. Maybe not on the first try, but most will eventually. If it drives coyote fees high enough, they may just go to the U.S. as tourists and not go back, or to Canada and cross the border from there.
One effect so far of increasing the costs of border crossing, without reducing the benefits of being here illegally, is on Mexicans who used to come to the U.S. in summers but reside in Mexico the rest of the year. Now some of them find that annual border crossing too much trouble so instead stay here permanently and bring their families here to live with them. The higher the costs of crossing the border illegally, the higher the proportion of illegal aliens who stay here year-round and bring their families, as long as there's economic incentive to be here.
... when employer enforcement is non-existent.
In that situation we're shafted with or without a wall, and Patton's comment applies: "Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity."
I agree with you there are security benefits of a border fence aside from dealing with the flood of unskilled workers, and that's the main reason I support it.
I more emphatically agree about Pluto.
" Forget about trying to find most illegals - let them go home on their own accord when they can't get jobs or most government services."
This is the approach I put forth last summer. It's the only one that makes sense, doesn't make a lot of people mad all at once, doesn't disrupt any local or national economy, and has some chance to work. It doesn't even need special legislation. At first, just enforce the laws that exist when an illegal commits some other crime. Even use some charitable non-enforcement in certain cases. Stricter enforcement can come later, but by then there probably will be some special legislation passed to cover the tired, the poor.... You can fill in the rest.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
... without having to horse trade with the Democrats for enabling legislation. Some new laws could be very helpful, but figuring that Harry and Nancy will stonewall on that, President Bush (and hopefully President McCain) already have the authority to make hiring illegals more expensive for employers than competing with higher wages in the legal labor market.
Steve, I agree with what you wrote, specifically the way you wrote it, especially
"We Americans are as much to blame for the mess called illegal immigration as the illegals coming here for that job magnet."
That's precisely why our government needs to solve the problem in a way that won't make the magnet even stronger. General amnesty (aka "a path to citizenship") would put the magnet on steroids.
One fact you didn't mention (therefore I could agree with you with just the minor reservation of "specifically") is that all those things you said aren't "the root cause of illegal immigration" are the things that make a lot of illegal families want to stay, no matter what.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
Flagstaff
I think we are both in the same ball park, which is mostly an economic one on this issue, or rather the effects of illegal immigration on the average tax payer.
I read other voices speaking in code, using words like culture, language, criminal, I don't have much in common with their point of view. Those voices I have encountered before, often they are armed with bull horns yelling at some dumb illegal standing by the road trying to make some money. In my view, they are going after the wrong target. The right target lives in a big house paid for by exploiting illegal labor.
There's lots can be done about illegal immigration if Washington and Congresscritters refuse to do it, and I personally think Arizona is leading the way.
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Freedom from bigots of all types !
BTW, I neglected to add that the female manager I mentioned is obviously taking a job that an American would do if she weren't already in it. And the job might pay more then, too.
That isn't to say she didn't earn it by merit. But if she'd not already been working in the place, somebody else would be there now.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
Sorry, Steve, those arguments don't cut it.
"Show me the money that businesses, big and small make from exploiting illegal alien workers who they don't pay prevailing wage, or social security, or workman's comp."
Are you suggesting that we must continue to allow these people to be "exploited" by continuing to allow them to reside here illegally? And encourage more to come in?
"Show me the money that it will cost to get lazy Americans, who mostly don't have a job, to get off their tuckus and get out and work 8, 10 or 12 hours a day picking crops in this country."
Again, you'd rather bring in illegal labor to do the work at slave-labor wages rather than paying a realistic American wage for hard work? You want to continue to exploit these people for cheap strawberries?
"Show me the money that the welfare industry, and government workers who live off it, will loose if illegals are denied service."
Get serious. Those people who really help the poor are overextended even without the illegals. With a lighter case load, they should be able to stop some of the atrocities we hear about on the news occasionally. they should be able to provide better service. And their help would go to people who belong in our home, not the neighbors who broke in during the night.
"Show me the money we tax payers are going to spend to put children of illegals who were born in this country and may or may not be citizens into foster care."
Is there some reason they can't go home with their parents? It was no problem for Elian Gonzales. Millions of families with children live in those countries right now.
But this isn't even a significant problem with some solutions.
"Show me the money, and show me the guts of any elected politician to actually take a case to resolve the 14th amendment status of children of illegal all the way to the Supreme court."
Guts are in short supply, of course. Has nothing to do with McCain's position.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion
Flagstaff
Nope, just speaking the truth of the issue, and no I am not suggesting that as a matter of national policy we should continue exploitation of illegals.
On the children of illegal immigrants, well you must live in a different area than I do, but out here in CA, there are tons and tons of children of illegals who were born here. I tend to think that they don't have rights to citizenship, but the realpolitik of the situation is that no one is going to press for a court challenge on the 14th. The children of illegals are a huge issue, at least in California and it's a third rail sort of issue.
Let me ask you a question.
How hard is it for an American company to bring in low skilled labor into this country, say in the agricultural sector?
Answer: Impossible. Only legal visas for highly skilled workers, yet the vast majority of illegals work in jobs that most Americans won't do...FOR THE MONEY WE AMERICANS are willing to pay. By the way, the Canadians have it right, they have an agricultural worker visa that is only good for 8 months, paid for by the farmer, and gives the worker no rights to citizenship. It also makes sure workers are paid a fair wage, decent working/living conditions, and plane tickets home. It's called a guest worker program.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
How hard is it for an American company to bring in low skilled labor into this country, say in the agricultural sector?
Answer: Impossible. Only legal visas for highly skilled workers,
Actually the TRUE answer is that the agricutural sector is allowed to bring in UNLIMITED NUMBERS of guestworkers under the H2A visa program legally.
Our criminal farmers prefer to break the law. H2A requires them to provide transportation to and from the border, pay the prevailing wage (about $8.50 an hour) and provide housing that meets certain modest sanitary conditions. The farmers prefer their pseudo slave illegal labor which allows them to externalize their costs onto the taxpayers and essentially take a huge cheap labor subsidy on top of all the other subsidies the agricultural sector takes.
They have a legal option to obtain unlimited legal labor and they choose instead to break the law.
If you are going to purport to speak the truth then you should first learn the truth.
The Heritage Foundation has a pretty good piece on the H2A Ag visa.
"The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and Department of Labor (DOL) are now taking the correct approach by proposing changes in the H-2A Visa program. H-2A Visas are temporary visas for nonimmigrant workers who perform agricultural labor. The Labor Department estimates that only 75,000 workers in the agricultural sector are in the H-2A program. Two main reasons account for this: The wages required by H-2A are higher than prevailing wages, and the application process is too cumbersome."
http://www.heritage.org/Research/immigration/wm1814.cfm
But, I'm sure you knew all about that...right?
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
piece and the part that sticks out the most is "The wages required by H-2A are higher than prevailing wages" well when you can pay 5 or less an hour instead of the 8.50 required than yes they are (slave labor)....oh and you can best believe I contacted by phone the Heritage Foundation and got into quite a nice conversation with them with regards to who they think their readers are....and that going the WSJ route for big business was not going to work for those of us out here in the real world....you know Americans looking for jobs in construction who cannot find a job because of under the table illegals working them....teenagers unable to find work in fast food because of the same...etc...etc.. etc..
Gosh it's almost like they are saying the businesses don't want to pay a decent wage for a legal immigrant worker...imagine that!
Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion
Here are some examples of the AEWR wages required to be payed by farmers to H2A workers. Sorry for the poorly formatted table. The first number following the name of each state is the 2002 wage and the second is the 2006 wage.
Year 2002 2006 2002 2006 2002 2006
Ariz.: $7.12 $8.00 Georgia: $7.28 $8.37 Penn.: $7.46 $8.95
Calif.: $8.02 $9.00 N.Car.: $7.53 $8.51 Vt.: $7.94 $9.16
Colo.: $7.62 $8.37 Oregon: $8.60 $9.01 W.Va: $7.07 $8.24
Some how, at under $8.50 an hour for life shortening stoop work, I am not feeling too sorry for the farmer.
A couple of posts ago, it was "impossible" to import a low-skilled agricultural guestworker.
Now it is just slightly more expensive and a bureaucratic hassle.
Aw my heart bleeds for the farmer "forced" to employ illegals, because if he used the legal H2A guest worker program,
The wages required by H-2A are higher than prevailing wages
Just like we all knew, employers hire illegals so they can pay lower wages.
And even this H2A program for low skill labor makes no sense except to those who think the wages of low skill Americans are too high.
What kind of gibberish concept is the "prevailing wage" as used here? That's a rhetorical question, of course we know the "prevailing wage" is what some bureaucrat in the Ministry of Economic Planning decides is the appropriate wage for some job. It sure isn't a market concept - if the "prevailing wage" was the market wage, that would mean the employer could hire someone in the local labor market by offering that wage, so no need to bring in a foreigner for the job.
In a capitalist economy, nobody is entitled to a successful business. It's not the government's job to help you make a profit. If somebody expects to run a successful business based on a Third World business model of cheap wages, I suggest they move to a Third World country. If they can't survive the competition from other businesses in the wage market for American labor, then our market economy's solution is that they should find some other way to make a living.
here in MI, and it's more like $9.50 an hour. Not to mention a sheaf of legal documents he has to sign and return to the government to legally import workers.
BTW he informed me that it was better to bring in Mexican workers than Mex-American migrant workers from Texas, as the Mexican workers are better workers.
And the issue of little investment in technologies to allow mechanical harvest.
Why invest $100 Million dollars to pick lettuce when you can hire illegals at $5.00/hr and no gasoline needed.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
I posted some actual numbers about hourly wages above. They are slightly dated (2006).
Thanks. Transparency is a necessity these days. Or was that clarity? Clarification? Arrrgh!!!!
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
Thanks for answering one post. I have several others for you upstream. But don't bother if you have no answers.
"you must live in a different area than I do, but out here in CA, there are tons and tons of children of illegals who were born here."
I live in Mexizona. Plenty of the same type kids here, too. If they are truly children with illegal parents, there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to return to the parents' home country with the parents. Or are you so jingoistic that you think it's inhumane to let them go anywhere outside the United States? I didn't think so. It's not a huge issue if you drop the pretense that because they are US citizens they must remain here and grow up here. There is no such legislative nor moral requirement.
And a StraightTalk discussion of this aspect of the problem might bring to light the fact that the whole point for some of the mothers was to create an anchor baby in a country with a generous welfare system. That point may be considered unfair, to say the least, right now, but if it were the admission of an illegal alien it quickly changes character.
"How hard is it for an American company to bring in low skilled labor into this country, say in the agricultural sector?"
Using illegal labor is their choice. They could choose to pay more for the work and find American workers to do it if their competitors faced the same choices, which don't include paying slave wages to illegal aliens.
I have a cousin who went to Alaska to work in the fishing industry many years ago, after he left high school. That was hard, dangerous work, and he did it for the money. There's no reason to think that other young people won't work hard for decent money if given the chance, and if they don't think they'll get it for doing nothing if they don't work.
"the Canadians have it right"
We have 535 CongressCritters who could follow the Canadians' lead. Do you know why they don't? Maybe their constituents who donate lots of money to re-election campaigns prefer to pay the slave wages.
Neither one is an insurmountable barrier, and it would serve either candidate well if he could address the problem with a solution that wasn't just a capitulation to the illegal alien lobby. In fact, I laid out a half-dozen or so reasons above why it is unconscionable that they haven't addressed it that way.
In fact, that's what the blog is really about.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
Flagstaff
The issue of what to do about children of illegal immigrants, visa v. legal status is a third rail issue in my view. Any politician that goes after them will be painted by many as some sort of monster in the media, and I doubt any politician would take on that third rail any more than they would social security or any of the others. It's a terrible issue for Republicans, and would turn many against the party brand in my view.
Back to businesses using illegals, yes it it a choice that business owners make. It's also a choice we as consumers and we as voters allow.
Take the kosher meat packing place up in Iowa. Can you even pretend to say that local and probably state authorities did not know illegals were working there in the number that they were? Surely you jest.
Business interests pay lobbyists to keep effective and aggressive laws to address this sort of thing off the books by supporting campaigns of both R's and D's. It's more of the show me the money and it is reality.
Let's go back to your angst with McCain, do you really think Nobamma is going to give you a better deal, to do what you want in this area. That's the real question.
You may not like McCain on this issue, but I can guarantee you that Nobamma is way way worse. That's your two choices in this race.
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NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !
I wouldn't necessarily campaign on any of these details. But there are answers that are not "monstrous" for the subjects if/when the illegal immigration issue enters the public discussion. And it wouldn't hurt if McCain introduced it, providing he has those answers committed to memory and in his heart.
"It's also a choice we as consumers and we as voters allow."
Seems to me that we voters have elected people who have written decent laws on the subject, and elected executives who are more interested in other topics. It's up to us to make sure the next one is interested in this the right way and for the right reasons. We "allow" some things because we have no choice.
And as consumers, we only get to "buy or not buy." We don't get to choose methodology for producers until some producers try the method we like. Consider that "organic" food costs considerably more than regular food, but it's still purchased by a lot of people who "choose" to support organic producers. As long as all producers pretend to be legal, there is no way to preferentially select the ones who really are legal.
"Can you even pretend to say that local and probably state authorities did not know illegals were working there in the number that they were?"
Why would I say that?
"Business interests pay lobbyists to keep effective and aggressive laws to address this sort of thing off the books by supporting campaigns of both R's and D's."
I thought I said that.
"Let's go back to your angst with McCain, do you really think Nobamma is going to give you a better deal, to do what you want in this area."
Of course not. That wasn't the topic of the essay. The topic was that McCain could handle this in a better way and get lots of votes. Unlike some others here, I never thought you wanted anything else.
Oh, and that pious but fatuous statements don't work on those who have brain cells that are firing in proper sequence.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
It's called shutting off the money spighot. States and localities that are cracking on employers that hire illegals is leading to self-deportation - that coupled with the falling American dollar exchange rate making America less economically attractive to some immigrant (e.g. Brazil).
Were we to extend these employer sanctions nationally along with continued vigorous border defense, we could significantly cut the number of illegals in this country without having to do any extraordinary efforts to find and deport illegals.
Once we get control of our borders and employment and we have confidence that the situation is not longer out-of-control, then will come the time for a serious discussion about how to handle the remaining illegal immigrants.
Thus there is a way to solve this problem that falls between surrender and massive police actions that will backfire because of media coverage. But it will involve skewering some hitherto sacred cows
I think that illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay with the following provisos:
1. They be required to learn English.
2. They pay taxes.
3. They are not allowed to vote.
4. They are not on federal assistance of any form.
5. They do not commit a crime, even no hit-and-runs.
Any violation of these will result in immediate deportation.
Proud to be under 30 and not voting for Obama!
In reading your list, I find that successful, below-the-radar illegals are doing all those things right now. Less successful ones miss out one #1 and/or #4. No question that #5 almost demands deportation.
So, how is this more onerous than McAmnesty? It's actually easier, giving a pass to all who simply support themselves and keep their noses clean.
I'd rather go with benign neglect than enshrine your list into law, but it would be a fine basis for the treatment of legal temporary workers.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
"First you win the argument, then you win the vote." - MARGARET THATCHER.
So let's start winning the argument.
Mr. Lucia, I'm not familiar with your work, so I'm sort of at a loss to answer you.
At first, I laughed it off. Martin Knight provided an appropriate response.
Then, I got PO'd. Check out Martin's response further up-thread. There isn't anything racial in my OP. It's all economic.
Then, I though you might be making a tongue-in-cheek comment.
So, what is it? If you were serious, just give me a concrete example or two to prove you thought about it before writing.
If you were being sarcastic, give me a smile.
Until then, I'll hold my fire.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
I can give you one example of an American citizen who was willing to work hard, for the wage offered, but lost his job to immigrant labor:
My own son. He lives with his mother in western NY and lost his agricultural job when the immigrants made their annual rotation arrival this summer. He's 17, works hard and was able to laugh it off as that is the norm for that area. I'm tired of people making my son sound lazy by stating illegals only do jobs that citizens won't do because they are lazy.
Where are the liberal calls for help and aid for my unemployed son? Too bad he's 20th generation American and white, I guess.
"Government of the people, by the people, for the people."
A. Lincoln
I assume he was booted because the H2A program allowed lower wages for the immigrant workers than does the normal "minimum wage."
Another economic loss not counted in the cost-benefit studies of illegal immigration.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
Senator McCain ---
I am God's child too! This child of God is paying her property taxes this month. Well half of my property taxes this month. Guess what Senator McCain. My property taxes went up $1,000 this year. Why did my property taxes go up. Well my local county school board has a budget shortfall of many millions. Why because the ESOL students jumped from less than 1,000 to 14,000 over the last 10 years -- during this same time period total student population increased only by 50%. Guess what it costs an additional $3,500 to educate an ESOL student. In this county spending per student averages $7,000, yet over 20% of the students are costing 50% more --- this means that those 80% of the students are getting far less of the education dollars. Over half of these 13,000 ESOL students have undocumented parents, about 60% have at least one undocumented parent. (The county hospital -- local taxpayers -- also paid the bill for the birth of many of these anchor babies.)
So Senator McCain -- this child of God is tired of involuntarily paying to educate the children of illegals and tired of paying the medical bills from birth to death for these illegals/anchor babies.
No one asked me if I wanted to pay for these people. My church has a mission to Central America -- am I not making my voluntary contribution there?
So Senator McCain -- you keep sending me letters asking for political contributions -- well guess what -- your "political contribution" was just used to pay my property taxes.
M Penny
Excellent observations, M Penny. These are the economic costs that I strongly doubt ever get considered adequately in the cost-benefit analysis of the illegal immigration situation.
My political contributions went to Fred Thompson, the SlateCard fellow in Alaska, and $25 to McCain. I hope he doesn't need any more.
I just will hate it if The Big O (as in "Zero") gets elected.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
Put us all back on equal footing. When the founders established this great country, though they addressed it somewhat, they weren't overly concerned about where a person was born but their state of mind...
However, over the course of the country's history, many things have taken place and laws have been enacted that place restrictions upon citizens where immigrants are outside the law. What's the worst that will happen to them? Deported. What does deportation do when they can cross at will? Nothing. Perhaps some slight inconveniences in making their way back.
If they want the rights and privileges that citizens enjoy then they need to be subject to law the same as the rest of us. As it stands right now, they get the rights and privileges but not much else. Why should we care if Mexico doesn't have the death penalty for murderers and the like? The crime wasn't committed in Mexico.
And they need to learn the language!!! If I were to go to Mexico would they print everything in English for me? No. When I was in Germany, I had to learn the language at least enough to function in the town where I lived. If you go to France, you'd have the same problem, so, why is it that only here should we relinquish our sovereignty to pacify everyone else?
Put us all on equal footing, irrespective of race or culture. Things will change all on their own when people know they are subject to the same laws and penalties as the rest of us.
I believe we're all suffering from abused spouse syndrome. We are married to our government whether by force or choice. I'd hate to see it result in some of the extremes that many abused spouses have employed to rid themselves of the abuser, but, if that's what it takes...
If the government can't muster the courage to free us all from bondage to them, then I'm with the "ship them back" crowd. Sorry. At some point, people have to take care of themselves first. Otherwise, they won't in any shape to help or take care of others. Instead of raising up the people we're purportedly helping, we're being forced to lower levels of existence ourselves. It's not healthy for us or them. What do they gain by such a thing? What do we lose?
Interesting imagery. The inequality of legal coverage isn't mentioned very often.
I hope the "Burning Bed" scenario doesn't materialize, but I understand your point.
Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!
stealing services from the Nation. Here is a bible verse for you Johnny Mac.
"The thief commeth only to steal, to kill, and to destroy"
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle